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Kutaragi seems a bit frustrated with Sony

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Arsenal

Member
Benadryl Hitman said:
Is blu-ray in that much trouble? I don't have any clue what sales of blu-ray movies and hardware vs. HD-DVD moves and hardware is at this point.

http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm

This is just Amazon movie rankings, but HD DVD has been consistently outselling Blu-Ray by a WIDE margin.

I have not been able to find any other sales charts, but apparently the only Blu-Ray player on the market right now is pretty atrocious. Everyone in the Blu-Ray camp is basically relying on the PS3 to come save the format which just seems incredibly risky to me. Will PS3 owners suddenly start buying large amounts of Blu-Ray movies?
 

Nameless

Member
Kuturagi got a little too ambitious with the PS3. Blu-Ray was a mistake IMO. The market is not ready for another medium boom as we saw with DVDs. Its probably going to be another gaming generation atleast, before HD-TVs are in enough homes before BRDs has the potential to be a mass success. I just think its amazingly stupid to risk the future of the brand and the company over an unproven technology.
 

Arsenal

Member
Wollan said:
Let's say HD DVD or something else wins the next gen disc war, it wouldn't be a problem to have a hybrid player in the PS4. They're already out there.

Link please? Every plan I've seen for a hybrid player has fallen through because THEY ARE WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. Of course I'm sure they could put a hybrid player in the PS4 when it launches, but do you really want to pay extra for a format that you don't need?
 

Mmmkay

Member
dark10x said:
How do you figure? The BR drive offers faster seek times (among other things).
Blu-ray seeks are slower. ~115ms for 360's 12x DVD drive versus ~210ms for a 2xBD-ROM drive.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Will PS3 owners suddenly start buying large amounts of Blu-Ray movies?
I know that anecdotal evidence really doesn't mean a whole lot, but I know several people (including myself) that have held off on purchasing a few recent movies until PS3 in order to buy them on Blu-Ray. By itself, it will not save the format, but I think it will certainly play a role in its potential success.
 

JB1981

Member
DenogginizerOS said:
No single company "owns" DVD. The official specification was developed by a consortium of ten companies: Hitachi, JVC, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Philips, Pioneer, Sony, Thomson, Time Warner, and Toshiba. Representatives from many other companies also contributed in various working groups.

The same could basically be said for Blu-Ray tech. It's not Sony's baby.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
jett said:
I bet if the devs wanted they could make it so Resistance would fit on a DVD9.
Hey, if you're going to suggest the devs should cut the amount of space they're using by 60%, why stop there? Go for broke! Put it on a CD.

Come on people, those graphics and textures don't really warrant Blu-Ray. :p
Per area? No. Ted Price said about 300 Meg or so of unique data per level. But they've assembled 40 such levels for single and multiplayer. Isn't this the kind of thing you want to hear when publishers want to charge you an extra $10 to cover the cost of higher quality assets in next-gen games - that they're not skimping on those assets in the process?

It's 20GB because they don't have to worry anymore about fitting shit.

You saw Ted Price's blog right? I seem to remember you were facetiously trying to attribute all the extra space used to nothing more than video. But he addressed all of these there and pointed out that they are using data compression, so it's not as if they simply stopped worrying about "fitting shit" - there's always going to be reason to still worry about fitting shit into memory, through the pipes back and forth between the CPU/GPU and memory, etc.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Joeroll said:
I might be the only one here. But, does anyone else refuse to use consoles as a movie player? Considering how fragile consoles seem to be these days I want it on as less as possible. So it will only be used for gaming.

Also did a lot of people here use ps2/xbox/360 for watching movies? Just curious.

The players on consoles suck. Just flat out suck ass. PS3 will be no exception in regards to playback. It'll suck compared to standalones, and probably suck hard. Which is why I always chuckle when the argument is brought up "PS3 will boost the number of BD players in the market!"

Yeah, it'll boost the numberof shitty BD players up in the market. Woooo! $500-600 shit!
 

jett

D-Member
Kaching: Sorry, I'm done believing what developers say.

Dark10x: got it:

dvdvsbdrs1af.png


http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23916169&user=skektek
 
I wonder (or if anyone knows the answer to this), was it a Kutaragi decision to use blu-ray in the PS3 or did the other heads at Sony make the decision to have blu-ray be used in the PS3 in order to push the format and help their other divisions?
 

Nameless

Member
dark10x said:
I know that anecdotal evidence really doesn't mean a whole lot, but I know several people (including myself) that have held off on purchasing a few recent movies until PS3 in order to buy them on Blu-Ray. By itself, it will not save the format, but I think it will certainly play a role in its potential success.

But people are like that the minority. There is a difference between riding the natural evolution of technology, and being on the cutting edge. To the average person "DVDs look great on my new HD-TV." at this point there is no reason to buy an $800 Blu-Ray player, and spend twicw as much on the movies. The PS2 jumped into right into the DVD surge, it didn't try and lead it--and thats why Sony benefited so much. This would be more-or less like the PS1 also serving as a laser disc or VCD player(actually it could play VCDs w/ add-on), some people would get use out of it, but the majority would not.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Yeah, it'll boost the numberof shitty BD players up in the market.
Well, it supports more features than any of the upcoming BD players and will likely beat out the only model on the market at this time. There is still a chance it will be a good player. The Cell is being used for decoding, isn't it?

Also, XBOX360's playback over VGA is actually very good now. Totally on par with a good HTPC.
 

Arsenal

Member
DenogginizerOS said:
What is so funny? Sony did not invent Bluray? Because practically every news story I have read gives them the credit for inventing it. Enlighten me if I am wrong.

edit: hmm, wrong quote, sorry.

This is just ridiculous. Both formats use the exact SAME codecs. Multiple studios are already releasing movies on both formats now. As these technologies mature, it will be TRIVIAL for a stuido to switch between the formats at will. Fanboys on both sides seem to think that these studios are loyal to one format or another, but the truth is that they are all competing with eachother (and Sony) and will simply follow the money and make the best business decisions.
 

neptunes

Member
Benadryl Hitman said:
I wonder (or if anyone knows the answer to this), was it a Kutaragi decision to use blu-ray in the PS3 or did the other heads at Sony make the decision to have blu-ray be used in the PS3 in order to push the format and help their other divisions?
seems like it was both.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
jett said:
Kaching: Sorry, I'm done believing what developers say.
Okay, which developer touched you in a bad spot? Tell papa kaching so he can go kick their ass. :p

When have Insomniac ever mislead anyone about their games? This game has done nothing but improve and build on the footage they initially showed at E3 05. And Insomniac has never tried to get anyone to believe outlandish design specs for this or any of their earlier games.

If you don't like the tendency of some devs to overpromise, then you should really be encouraging the way devs like Insomniac conduct themselves, rather than simply lumping them in with the bad apples and basically sending the message that you don't care if they act with more integrity than everyone else.
 

snatches

Member
You know, I am sure in early planning stages Ken was focused on the Cell project in a big way and in creating the deal with nVidia for the graphics solution. BluRay, I am sure, is more something that was forced down his throat by the bigger corporation types. Surely someone as intelligent as Ken knows that the price difference we are currently seeing is a big problem for Sony. Hell, if their was no 360, $600 is a lot to ask of the market anyways.

Ken (and ps fans) is a victim of the larger sony corporation planning and how they are using ps3 as a trojan horse to push bluray on the masses.
 
I think Blue Ray and HD-DVD are stupid because I think it is a waste of money to pay anything over $10 for a movie that you will probably watch once or twice. I would never bother to buy a movie for the prices that the Blue Ray and HD-DVD movies are going for.

I am also glad Microsoft did not increase the price of the 360 with an HD-DVD drive because I could care less about using my gaming console for watching movies.

You guys don't think it is odd that discussions about the next gen gaming system wars are dominated about a movie format?
 

Drek

Member
3rdman said:
I mentioned this in the "thread that shall not be named, but I had predicted (wrongly, of course) that a low end PS3 with DVD drive would be made. To this day, I don't understand why Sony didn't do this...they could have had their cake and ate it too. Leave the high-end version with BR which would allow those who wanted HD movies the ability to enjoy them and a low cost alternative to those who can't afford it.

It made so much sense to me that I'm still surprised that they're doing BR across the board.
I bet you think Sega had the right idea with the Sega CD and 32X as well.

jett said:
I bet if the devs wanted they could make it so Resistance would fit on a DVD9. Come on people, those graphics and textures don't really warrant Blu-Ray. :p
Sure, in exchange for dropping 7.1 sound, multiple language tracks, 1080p, and probably a good chunk of the multiplayer levels. Double load times while you're at it too since you'd have much less space for redundant data.

Mrbob said:
Many PSone games were multiple discs, so I don't think it would have been a deathblow.
Its not a deathblow, but its certainly not optimal for both developers (who then need to find ways to appropriately fragment their game between two+ discs) and especially not for publishers, who then spend extra money per unit to publish the title. DVD9 isn't much cheaper than Blu-Ray to manufacture as it is, when you start having to press multiple discs, deviate from standard packaging design, etc. you increase publishing costs. A buck or two per unit might not seem like a huge deal to us, but it is when a publisher is talking about publishing hundreds of thousands of units. Even if the game sells well its less profitable than if you could fit it on a single disc. If a multiple disc game gets a big run and bombs though, that could really set a company back.

Blue laser optical discs are being pushed onto the market earlier in its life than any optical media before it. As of right now every company but Sony is willing to wait and see how the format "war" plays out while costs of production come down. But Sony is leveraging it in the PS3 as a way to force production costs down (as a result of mass production). Early adopters will effectively help pay for Sony's overhead in this process, but in turn get a game system with a true next gen format and features that no other system can offer. These doesn't mean it'll automatically have better games, though some devs could probably find a way to turn extra space into a significant advantage, but they will offer features that games on other systems can't. For those of us who don't own HDTVs and don't need a premium format for movies its frustrating. Not only will the system cost an extra $100 but it will also be damn scarce for several months after launch. But Sony doesn't have much of a viable alternative if they want to continue their Playstation business model, achieving maximum sales on the back end of a console's life cycle. They don't want MS' version of the industry, releasing new hardware every 4-5 years, and I don't think very many gamers really do either. But a DVD based console is a lot less viable in 2011 when 720p and 1080p sets are common place. Consumers won't want a games system that can't match up.
 

snatches

Member
Drek said:
But a DVD based console is a lot less viable in 2011 when 720p and 1080p sets are common place. Consumers won't want a games system that can't match up.

First off: The DVD based console you are talking about supports 720p and 1080i, which looks incredible on the sets you are describing, and Second: you probably won't be playing much ps3 in 2011. Just a thought. Sony's hand will be forced by competition to bring out a new console that year. I like MS' timing. Release the next console in 2010 after a five year cycle with 360, make it backwards compatible this time, and put the winning next gen media format in the box when the "real" mass market is adopting bluray or hddvd.

What will Sony do when the "720" comes out in 2010 and technically blows the ps3 out of the water?
 

Hunter D

Member
You people are crazy if you think we will be playing PS3 in 2011. Around the end of 2008 PC games will be stomping the hell out of the consoles and developers will want more power. I can't believe people buy into the 10 year deal. 2011 is when we will start to see info on the new consoles.
 

Nvidia

Banned
Hunter D said:
You people are crazy if you think we will be playing PS3 in 2011. Around the end of 2008 PC games will be stomping the hell out of the consoles and developers will want more power. I can't believe people buy into the 10 year deal.


I do for one:)
 

snatches

Member
Wollan said:
2011 is only abit over 4 years away. We have been playing PS2 for like 6 years now.

5 years. Fall is when consoles launch. And we have already been playing our 360's for a year.
 

Nutter

Member
Stumpokapow said:
One of my favourite quotes of all time:

One of my favourite quotes of all time:

Quote:
In January, Allard and the rest of the Xbox senior executives gathered to write brief statements on what motivates them to come to work every morning. The mission: to inspire the group's rank and file. "Most people put down flowery, make-the-world-a-better-place, Miss America types of things," Allard says. "I wrote: What gets me out of bed and into the office every day is the thought of Ken Kutaragi's resignation letter, framed, hanging next to my desk."


Maybe he'll get it some day.

I am sure that was in response to Ken saying that he wants to kill Microsoft. (bad feelings perhaps?)
 
Nvidia said:
s
True, but xbox fans said that a new console is needed every 3 years

who the hell said this?? I think it was clear to anyhow who understands hardware that the Xbox had a pretty limited lifecycle from the begining as it was a mostly off the shelf console. the 360 is built to reduce cost gradually.. just like the PS2. the cycles aren't based on this abstract concept of every three years or every five years, they are based on profitablity and audience potential.
 

Nvidia

Banned
meltpotato said:
who the hell said this?? I think it was clear to anyhow who understands hardware that the Xbox had a pretty limited lifecycle from the begining as it was a mostly off the shelf console. the 360 is built to reduce cost gradually.. just like the PS2. the cycles aren't based on this abstract concept of every three years or every five years, they are based on profitablity and audience potential.


What the hell is this??
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
Martoo said:
People who are defending blu ray are idiots.

The simple fact remains. If PS3 went with DVD, XBOX360 would be dead and we'd all, EVERY ****ING ONE OF US, would have a PS3 in our homes right now. CHEAPER, LAUNCHED EARLIER. Oh noez!! Games might come in two discs or three? Holy ****ing shit you have to get out of your chair once every 13 hours?!?!?!!? GAME BREAKING.

Guys, wake up. Blu ray doesn't mean crap besides us all sitting here waiting for our console to be released. Shit, in reality, I'm not even waiting for a PS3. Blue ray has priced it out of my budget.
I'm gonna have to agree with this.

Gaming has gone from a fun hobby to a ridiculous investment now. I'm supposed to pay $600 for a console, then another god knows what for games and accessories? On top of that, I'd need to buy another couple thousand dollars worth of equipment just to take advantage of the features making the damn thing so expensive in the first place. All I want to do is play videogames!!

It's gotten way out of hand at this point, and sadly, that means I'll be sitting it out.
 

Nvidia

Banned
snatches said:
yeah, last gen was really showing its age compared to pc stuff. I'm glad somebody decided to take it to the next level.[/QUOTE]


dumb128.jpg
And you call this xbox360/ps3 graphics to the Next level.:lol
 

chinch

Tenacious-V Redux
teiresias said:
I'm sorry, I agree about alot of things concerning Kuturagi, but "realistic chipset"? I see nothing wrong with Cell, and if news is to be believed they've got plenty of those on hand and it is presenting no issue. I'd also argue alot of the stuff on your list of "make stuff SONY wants to make" has little to nothing to do with Kuturagi - particularly in light of his views on Sony's behavior toward content control.
you mean the CELL that toshiba will be using in future TVs? The thing has no purpose outside of the labs and PS3. huge $$$ investement to build a white elephant. it's not like it's going to revolutionize gaming or anything, nor is it needed for bluray playback either. it's total overkill and a symptom of the sony's core problems.

ken leads the only profitable CE arena of sony (games) for the past several years so this mistake. obviously sony has problems up and down the company but ken is main event.
 

pr0cs

Member
Blue ray is the PS3s achilles heel, its the reason why I don't think I'll support the PS3 until it comes down in price. I don't like companies using their trojan horse to force me to use their format. I hated it when Microsoft forced me to use Explorer and I hate it now when Sony forces me to use BlueRay when there is no need for it.
 

snatches

Member
Nvidia said:
And you call this xbox360/ps3 graphics to the Next level.:lol

yes

I would say that titles like Oblivion, GRAW, GoW, Mass Effect, Resistance, Lair, and Heavenly Sword are taking it to the next level.

Do you hate games or something?
 
Wollan said:
Did Microsoft give any reason for why they chanced to PPC from intel?

Well, for one thing Intel's OOOe cores have expensive logic overhead within them (many transistors are budgeted for OOOe's logic...and there is also a lot of cache, as well). Sony and Microsoft would not get the peformance & speed per dollar that would viably work for the heat/voltage constraints of the small packaging they use had they not gone for an in-order execution chip.
 

Nvidia

Banned
snatches said:
yes

I would say that titles like Oblivion, GRAW, GoW, Mass Effect, Resistance, Lair, and Heavenly Sword are taking it to the next level.

Do you hate games or something?


No you just sound like the person from Sonic for PS3 and Xbox 360. Check out the new video of it:lol
 

Nvidia

Banned
snatches said:
what are you guys talking about. I hate sonic (since the genesis days)

It a person in the new video that says Sonic for PS3/xbox 360 will take it to the Next Level
 

teiresias

Member
chinch said:
you mean the CELL that toshiba will be using in future TVs? The thing has no purpose outside of the labs and PS3. huge $$$ investement to build a white elephant. it's not like it's going to revolutionize gaming or anything, nor is it needed for bluray playback either. it's total overkill and a symptom of the sony's core problems.

ken leads the only profitable CE arena of sony (games) for the past several years so this mistake. obviously sony has problems up and down the company but ken is main event.

Cell to be used in world's fastest supercomputer at Los Alamos (Opteron-Cell hybrid)

And even if it were only to end up being used in the PS3 by Sony, I still don't see the issue, it's as much an IBM part as anything else and they can use it as they see fit. I'm just glad someone is willing to put new technology in devices like this and try new things rather than give us another PC derivative architecture. Cell is obviously not the source of the majority of the PS3 woes at this point.
 
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