Support NeoGAF

[Tellaerin]

People who are defending blu ray are idiots.

The simple fact remains. If PS3 went with DVD, XBOX360 would be dead and we'd all, EVERY ****ING ONE OF US, would have a PS3 in our homes right now. CHEAPER, LAUNCHED EARLIER. Oh noez!! Games might come in two discs or three? Holy ****ing shit you have to get out of your chair once every 13 hours?!?!?!!? GAME BREAKING.

Guys, wake up. Blu ray doesn't mean crap besides us all sitting here waiting for our console to be released. Shit, in reality, I'm not even waiting for a PS3. Blue ray has priced it out of my budget.

Sorry, but I think you're wrong.

I think developers are going to run up against the space limitations of DVD9 sooner rather than later, especially for free-roaming games where disk swapping would be awkward. I also suspect MS' response will be to start prepping a new $400 console for release in the next three to four years, with a higher-density media drive and whatever other hardware improvements they can manage while still breaking even (or even turning a slight profit) on each unit sold. X360.5, in other words.

Between Cell and Blu-Ray, I think that the PS3's going to be viable for longer than that. I wouldn't be surprised if it's decently supported for a good 7-8 years - Sony seems to be aiming for a long lifespan for the machine. Paying an extra $100 up front for that kind of added lifespan is more than acceptable to me. (Of course, this is all conjecture, and I could end up being totally wrong, too. It'll be interesting to look back on all these posts a few years from now, after this drama's actually played itself out.)

 

[DenogginizerOS]

Cant believe I am defending Sony, but hear goes.

Well the diode problem isnt just Sony. Every manufacturer of the diode is having problems producing them and they arent Blu-Ray specific. This is hurting Blu-Ray and HD-DVD as well. Last week yields were reported at 30%. Thus why I think that PS3 manufacturing isnt just one month behind scheduled like they said they other day. This will certainly hold up the price on the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray drives until the diode really is just a commodity. Other competitors are going to drive up the cost of those diodes as well.

However, the Wii and the X360 are not affected by this at all. As gaming systems, this blue laser diode issue is ONLY relevant to PS3. And I think this is the reason people are down on Bluray being in PS3 right now; it is pushing back the timeframe in which they will realistically have a chance to get a PS3. The Bluray technology trojan horse is shitting in the yards of gamers right now who just want to play Motorstorm and Warhawk and all the other PS3 games. Like me, they just want a ****ing game console.

 

[jarrod]

For all the bitching and moaning that goes on around here about having to deal with multiple, proprietary formats, if you actually look at the reality of current tech. markets you see a number of competing formats supported almost transparently, moreso than VHS v. Beta ever managed. Take a look at a typical DVD player and you'll see it supports several more formats (basic playable CD, DVD, multiple recordable DVD formats, multiple audio/video codecs, etc.) than the two videocassette formats that sparked such a longlasting "bad taste" in people's mouths.

I think the problem with this comparison though is that for original content, one industry wide format was still adopted. Legacy CD support in DVD isn't really comparable either I think, the two formats being compilmentary rather than competitive.

Or look at the market for flash media where there's at least a half dozen physical formats to choose from.

Again, the main concern is for original industry content... flash media deals mainly with user created content and isn't really subject to the same conerncs so much.

 

[Ponn]

At least Kuturagi is pissed and has admitted it. Not many execs would be outspoken like that about their own company or situation.

Alas this is it. I'm turning in my jacket. I'm not going to pick up a new jacket though, screw next gen. I'm just going to wander the wastelands of last gen and hang out with my backlog. Call me the Lone Last Gen Gamer.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

I'm old enough to remember Betamax v. VHS and the only reason why it leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that I keep having to watch people bring it up like this last great battle of the analog age really has that much relevance to the digital age.

For all the bitching and moaning that goes on around here about having to deal with multiple, proprietary formats, if you actually look at the reality of current tech. markets you see a number of competing formats supported almost transparently, moreso than VHS v. Beta ever managed. Take a look at a typical DVD player and you'll see it supports several more formats (basic playable CD, DVD, multiple recordable DVD formats, multiple audio/video codecs, etc.) than the two videocassette formats that sparked such a longlasting "bad taste" in people's mouths. Or look at the market for flash media where there's at least a half dozen physical formats to choose from.

Technology available today makes it far easier to absorb and assimilate multiple formats, should the circumstances suggest that such is worthwhile. The end result is a world where anyone who is using various tech devices in their daily lives is dealing with an increasing number of formats with a decreasing number of incompatabilities, on a scale that's beginning to make the VHS v. Betamax dilemma look positively pedestrian.

Sell me, an average consumer, on why Bluray is worth the added cost if all I intend to do with Bluray is use it to watch movies. And then convince me as a gamer why Bluray is worth the extra cost for a PS3. Can you demonstrate in a store this holiday why the extra cost is justified? Because back in the time of Betamax andVHS, the sales pitch was all about better picture, longer recording times, greater durability, and that was why it was worth the extra price. While the sales pitch was accurate, the reality was that Betamax had no chance against VHS. And while you could say the same thing right now about HD-DVD having no chance against Bluray, it still doesn't reduce the skepticism that many consumers such as myself have about who will actually win this war. And as long as the war is undecided, so is the reason to spend the extra money on a PS3.

 

[sugarhigh4242]

Sorry, but I think you're wrong.

I think developers are going to run up against the space limitations of DVD9 sooner rather than later, especially for free-roaming games where disk swapping would be awkward. I also suspect MS' response will be to start prepping a new $400 console for release in the next three to four years, with a higher-density media drive and whatever other hardware improvements they can manage while still breaking even (or even turning a slight profit) on each unit sold. X360.5, in other words.

Between Cell and Blu-Ray, I think that the PS3's going to be viable for longer than that. I wouldn't be surprised if it's decently supported for a good 7-8 years - Sony seems to be aiming for a long lifespan for the machine. Paying an extra $100 up front for that kind of added lifespan is more than acceptable to me. (Of course, this is all conjecture, and I could end up being totally wrong, too. It'll be interesting to look back on all these posts a few years from now, after this drama's actually played itself out.)

i agree with this post completely.

and i think the increased lifespan of playstation products is really good for game development. Sony tends to make these non-standard processors that are very powerful, but because of their complexity, the power shows itself gradually throughout the life of the system. This approach combined with long product life means consumers can buy one box, and keep being surprised by its power for years after.

 

[Aeon712]

Ken has officially become my favorite exec, the fact that he actually outright spoke about the situation without putting a spin on it makes me like him.

 

[Orodreth]

i agree with this post completely.

and i think the increased lifespan of playstation products is really good for game development. Sony tends to make these non-standard processors that are very powerful, but because of their complexity, the power shows itself gradually throughout the life of the system. This approach combined with long product life means consumers can buy one box, and keep being surprised by its power for years after.

I agree that ps2 support and lifespan is great but mostly because they are still nº 1 and selling like hotcakes.

do you think in the hypothetical case of ps3 being a failure and ending way behind 360 that sony would support the console 7-8 years?

 

[The Innocent X]

I think developers are going to run up against the space limitations of DVD9 sooner rather than later, especially for free-roaming games where disk swapping would be awkward.

We have yet to see a multi disc game for the 360, and we are nearly a year in. This includes at least 2 free roaming games. Maybe we will see some problems later, but are they worth a year+ delay and another $200. Thats for each of us to decide.

 

[Mrbob]

Yeah hindsight is a bitch, but Blu Ray gave MS a huge opening with the 360 to succeed. Not only with pricepoint, but yield problems of launching new tech like this. Who knows when the diode situation will clear up.

For arguments sake, imagine if the premium PS3 had everything it did now, but a regular DVD drive instead of a Blu Ray Drive. Hell Sony could have made a DVD drive that read DVD 18s, for larger gaming storage. Anyway, the price of this system is $399.99, are you excited? I know I am. And it's already game, set, match for the next generation race between PS3 and 360 then. That would be a hell of a package at a pricepoint more accessable.

 

[Kangu]

i didn't read any of the posts but, is this another blu-ray debate thread? oh boy!

 

[jett]

Kutaragi is an effin' hypocrite. Be frustrated with your own stupid self, fool.

Blu-ray in PS3 = one of the biggest blunders in gaming since N64 went with carts(not for the same reasons, clearly).

 

[Zaptruder]

Yeah hindsight is a bitch, but Blu Ray gave MS a huge opening with the 360 to succeed. Not only with pricepoint, but yield problems of launching new tech like this. Who knows when the diode situation will clear up.

For arguments sake, imagine if the premium PS3 had everything it did now, but a regular DVD drive instead of a Blu Ray Drive. Hell Sony could have made a DVD drive that read DVD 18s, for larger gaming storage. Anyway, the price of this system is $399.99, are you excited? I know I am. And it's already game, set, match for the next generation race between PS3 and 360 then. That would be a hell of a package at a pricepoint more accessable.

For launch, a DVD equipped PS3 would've been in a much better position then a BD equipped PS3.

But 5-6 years down the track... would developers and consumers have been thinking in hindsight that, the PS3 was placed at the right time and right place to adopt the new technology, and is lesser for not having done so? Mind you, if the PS3 had initially gone with DVD, they of course wouldn't know about the initial cost and manufacturing problems.

 

[duk]

hmm this can't be good for their stock?

 

[The Innocent X]

For launch, a DVD equipped PS3 would've been in a much better position then a BD equipped PS3.

But 5-6 years down the track... would developers and consumers have been thinking in hindsight that, the PS3 was placed at the right time and right place to adopt the new technology, and is lesser for not having done so? Mind you, if the PS3 had initially gone with DVD, they of course wouldn't know about the initial cost and manufacturing problems.

If all next gen consoles had contained DVD, no-one would have cared that much, developers would have eventually designed for multiple discs, and I doubt many people would say, gee, if only we`d gone for blu-ray. Now its here, Sony have to make sure it`s advantages outweigh the problems it causes.

 

[Mrbob]

For launch, a DVD equipped PS3 would've been in a much better position then a BD equipped PS3.

But 5-6 years down the track... would developers and consumers have been thinking in hindsight that, the PS3 was placed at the right time and right place to adopt the new technology, and is lesser for not having done so? Mind you, if the PS3 had initially gone with DVD, they of course wouldn't know about the initial cost and manufacturing problems.

I suppose so. We'll also have to see how quickly the PS3 can drop in price. The economics of scale suggest the PS3 should have the quickest drop in cost of components of any console produced. Sony needs to hit that $299.99/$399.99 pricepoint quickly. Like by the end of 2007, but it'll probably still be $499.99/$599.99.

Many PSone games were multiple discs, so I don't think it would have been a deathblow.

PS3 is just a big powerplay by sony to use the game division to lock up the hd movie race. It's a little sad, really.

 

[kaching]

I think the problem with this comparison though is that for original content, one industry wide format was still adopted. Legacy CD support in DVD isn't really comparable either I think, the two formats being compilmentary rather than competitive.

The only reason why BD and HD-DVD are competitive rather than complimentary is down to industry politics. Technologically, they could both be incorporated into a hybrid device with the same formfactor and using a single drive. When component prices come down enough and if enough market support develops for one or both formats, more neutral device manufacturers will naturally step in to fill the void, seeing a segment of the market they can capitalize on.

Again, the main concern is for original industry content... flash media deals mainly with user created content and isn't really subject to the same conerncs so much.

User created content still needs to be encoded into some format and that's hardly universal either. The reason why we don't have more bitter battles over JPEG v. TIFF v. RAW or MP3 v. AAC v. WMA is because device manufacturers and software develeopers step in and provide interoperability, because the overhead for doing so is negligible against the benefit to the profitability of their products.

Sell me, an average consumer, on why Bluray is worth the added cost if all I intend to do with Bluray is use it to watch movies.

Tell you what, in a couple of years when you, the "average consumer", may actually start taking an interest in BD for movies, I'll tell you what the advantages are at that point.

And then convince me as a gamer why Bluray is worth the extra cost for a PS3. Can you demonstrate in a store this holiday why the extra cost is justified?

It'll play games that take advantage of the space from day one, hosting games that would have had to have been designed very differently or not at all if they had to deal with smaller media and/or span across multiple discs. Resistance would require 3 DVD9s, which I'm sure would have been a source for much bitching when it came to swapping discs in order to jump back and forth between single-player and multiplayer games. Not many devs are going to want to consider making multi-disc games as they work to design more and more open worlds that rely more and more heavily on costant data streaming.

 

[plagiarize]

For launch, a DVD equipped PS3 would've been in a much better position then a BD equipped PS3.

But 5-6 years down the track... would developers and consumers have been thinking in hindsight that, the PS3 was placed at the right time and right place to adopt the new technology, and is lesser for not having done so? Mind you, if the PS3 had initially gone with DVD, they of course wouldn't know about the initial cost and manufacturing problems.

all true. anyone who calls you a blind member of SDF has an agenda in my eyes

i get that you prefer sony, but you're pretty sane.

trying to put blu ray in was a gamble. they knew about the long term benefits (which wouldn't have changed had implementation gone smoothly) and they knew about the potential **** ups. they rolled the dice and came up with snake eyes. i'm sure they think they can make up for it, and it's certainly not TEH END for Sony right now... but the longer it takes them to start making up ground on the xbox 360, the worse the 'long term prospects' are for the console.

what happens to the ps3 if and when the xbox 3 comes out in four years time (totally plausible). sony have to react and the longer term ps3 life cycle doesn't come to reality.

again, the long term benefit is there, but it's not necessarily a given.

microsoft are betting that it won't become important soon enough and that they'll be able to reach critical mass first. it's a similar thing to nintendo betting that HD won't be necessary this time around.

they're all gambling one way or another. some will get lucky. some will get burned. they'll be called fools or geniuses when those things happen.

blu ray may long term be a good thing for sony, it may not. sony are hoping the same thing you are and they very well may be right.

i guess that's why even professional analysts can't seem to come to a consensus on this generation.

 

[jett]

The problem with Blu-Ray is not the launch shipment(that shit doesn't matter in the long run), but the price. At 600...when will we ever see the machine sliced to 300? The 360 is having more than enough problems with a $200 lower pricepoint...

 

[Flo_Evans]

thats funny! I am a bit frustrated with sony too! :lol

 

[Tieno]

thats funny! I am a bit frustrated with sony too! :lol

:lol :lol

 

[dark10x]

I'm excited about the inclusion of Blu-Ray from my own standpoint, but I do feel that it may end up having a very negative impact on Sony. It's difficult to say, really.

 

[The Innocent X]

Resistance would require 3 DVD9s, which I'm sure would have been a source for much bitching when it came to swapping discs in order to jump back and forth between single-player and multiplayer games. .

One wonders how Sony are going to distribute demos, since each one will no doubt be about 8 Gigs, if one believes the hype. It`ll take 2 days to download the thing!

 

[krypt0nian]

Yeah hindsight is a bitch, but Blu Ray gave MS a huge opening with the 360 to succeed. Not only with pricepoint, but yield problems of launching new tech like this. Who knows when the diode situation will clear up.

For arguments sake, imagine if the premium PS3 had everything it did now, but a regular DVD drive instead of a Blu Ray Drive. Hell Sony could have made a DVD drive that read DVD 18s, for larger gaming storage. Anyway, the price of this system is $399.99, are you excited? I know I am. And it's already game, set, match for the next generation race between PS3 and 360 then. That would be a hell of a package at a pricepoint more accessable.

I've been saying this for months now, bob. **** BR and give us an affordable machine. But the trojan horse wars have now ****ed SONY.

Either way, it's $400 or bust for me. So maybe in like 2010.

 

[jett]

I bet if the devs wanted they could make it so Resistance would fit on a DVD9. Come on people, those graphics and textures don't really warrant Blu-Ray.

It's 20GB because they don't have to worry anymore about fitting shit. Just like some saved games on the PS2 occupy 400k on the memory card when its similiar on the PS1 was barely 16k.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Well no shit, Kutaragi, you're to blame

No, for many months now he has only been at the helm of SCE, not the company blamed for this delay (the one responsible for blu-laser diodes production) which is a wholly different business subdivision of Sony corporation.

 

[Elios83]

Blu Ray is a very good thing.It makes the platform much better. People understimate its importance because right now they don't need it. But people also believed they wouldn't need the DVD and the 56k modem in the Dreamcast was sufficient to have a good online experience,broadband with its low penetration (at that time) wasn't worth it.
These things change really fast and I think that by the end of next year every one will love the possibilities offered by Blu Ray.
With this being said it's clear that all the problems Sony is facing so far with PS3 are caused by the difficulties of integrating such a new and complex technology in a device manufactured in mass market quantities.So I understand Kutaragi's frustration but clearly they have totally understimated the difficulties brought by Blu Ray and now they have put themselves in a very difficult situation,if they had the possiblity to have an other genetation locked in their hands now it's all open and the funny thing is that it's all their fault.

 

[Arsenal]

One of my favourite quotes of all time:

Maybe he'll get it some day.

And maybe he will be working at Microsoft shortly thereafter

 

[dark10x]

I bet if the devs wanted they could make it so Resistance would fit on a DVD9. Come on people, those graphics and textures don't really warrant Blu-Ray.

I'd imagine that you are correct, but I have a feeling that doing so would have a huge impact on load times.

One thing I'm really hoping for with PS3 is significantly reduced load times. With the extra space, they can duplicate data many more times in order to increase efficiency. On top of this, the BR specs themselves offer a number of features that allow for faster data retrieval than DVD9. Beyond that, the HDD is standard on every machine.

With each of those in place, I'd imagine that we may end up seeing great strides in terms of load times. As of right now, the majority of games on XBOX360 are filled with lengthy load times beyond which I am comfortable with.

I believe BR may allow developers to focus on optimization of data retrieval rather than simply fitting everything on a disc.

 

[The Innocent X]

I'd imagine that you are correct, but I have a feeling that doing so would have a huge impact on load times.

250Gb hard drive, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. make all games install to the hard disc from DVD-9. Low load times, launched last year at a cheap price, everyone`s a winner. Shame.

 

[Pureauthor]

One thing I'm really hoping for with PS3 is significantly reduced load times.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the PS3's 2X Blu-ray drive read slower than the X360's 12X-DVD drive?

 

[dark10x]

250Gb hard drive, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. make all games install to the hard disc from DVD-9. Low load times, launched last year at a cheap price, everyone`s a winner. Shame.

I don't agree with that either.

Installation is one reason why I do not often return to older PC games. I could stand some pre-caching (similar to what we saw on XBOX), but full blown installations are beyond what I'm willing to accept on a console. I don't think it will be necessary with Blu-Ray either, but we'll have to see.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the PS3's 2X Blu-ray drive read slower than the X360's 12X-DVD drive?

It goes beyond speed, you know. A BR drive does not function in the same exact manner as a DVD drive. I can't recall the details, but there are some major differences in the way these drives can read data and Blu-Ray supports a lot of techniques that should have a huge impact on speed as a result.

 

[The Innocent X]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the PS3's 2X Blu-ray drive read slower than the X360's 12X-DVD drive?

Don`t even go there! Its extremely difficult to say and is based on lots of factors, some of which aren`t clear. Lets not derail the otherwise interesting thread. Please?

 

[Vilix]

Sell me, an average consumer, on why Bluray is worth the added cost if all I intend to do with Bluray is use it to watch movies. And then convince me as a gamer why Bluray is worth the extra cost for a PS3. Can you demonstrate in a store this holiday why the extra cost is justified? Because back in the time of Betamax andVHS, the sales pitch was all about better picture, longer recording times, greater durability, and that was why it was worth the extra price. While the sales pitch was accurate, the reality was that Betamax had no chance against VHS. And while you could say the same thing right now about HD-DVD having no chance against Bluray, it still doesn't reduce the skepticism that many consumers such as myself have about who will actually win this war. And as long as the war is undecided, so is the reason to spend the extra money on a PS3.

I'm sure you also realize that a lot of people won't feel the need to upgrade from DVD when it comes to watching movies. And some of those might turn to downloading movies from the net instead of buying it on a disk.

 

[jett]

I'd imagine that you are correct, but I have a feeling that doing so would have a huge impact on load times.

One thing I'm really hoping for with PS3 is significantly reduced load times. With the extra space, they can duplicate data many more times in order to increase efficiency. On top of this, the BR specs themselves offer a number of features that allow for faster data retrieval than DVD9. Beyond that, the HDD is standard on every machine.

With each of those in place, I'd imagine that we may end up seeing great strides in terms of load times. As of right now, the majority of games on XBOX360 are filled with lengthy load times beyond which I am comfortable with.

I believe BR may allow developers to focus on optimization of data retrieval rather than simply fitting everything on a disc.

On the flipside, going with high-speed DVD(16X+, higher than the 360's) reader instead of 2X Blu-Ray would've increased the load times as well. Again, because of Blu-Ray, streaming should be pretty much mandatory for PS3 games...and who knows how many games will actually employ that. I'm expecting some truly terrible things loading-wise for the machine.

 

[The Innocent X]

I don't agree with that either.

Installation is one reason why I do not often return to older PC games. I could stand some pre-caching (similar to what we saw on XBOX), but full blown installations are beyond what I'm willing to accept on a console. I don't think it will be necessary with Blu-Ray either, but we'll have to see.

Pre-chaching is installing, just split up into smaller chunks.

Also, a lot of PC installation time is taken up reading configs etc. A console installer could be much faster, essentailly just a big copy.

 

[dark10x]

Pre-chaching is installing, just split up into smaller chunks.

Exactly. Those smaller chunks allow it to work whereas an actual full blown installation would take many times longer. Ninja Gaiden handled it beautifully (as did Halo 2).

On the flipside, going with high-speed DVD(16X+, higher than the 360's) reader instead of 2X Blu-Ray would've increased the load times as well.

As I've said, it goes beyond speed alone. There are many factors here.

Did you read the bit about Prey recently? When files were assembled on disc initially, it was taking upwards of 5 minutes to load a level. By breaking each level into chunks (and repeating data), they were able to reduce it to ~45 seconds. Additional space is going to be very important for this reason. When assets grow in size to the point that dupilcate data becomes difficult to impossible on a DVD9, I believe the benefits of a larger disc will begin to prove themselves.

 

[The Innocent X]

Exactly. Those smaller chunks allow it to work whereas an actual full blown installation would take many times longer. Ninja Gaiden handled it beautifully (as did Halo 2).

I`m not convinced. 10 minutes to install a game would be better than 1 minute every time it loaded. The 360 already does caching to reduce load times, but we still have load times, I can`t see the PS3 being too much different, especially with larger data volumes, but it may be there are tricks because every console has a HDD

 

[sugarhigh4242]

I agree that ps2 support and lifespan is great but mostly because they are still nº 1 and selling like hotcakes.

do you think in the hypothetical case of ps3 being a failure and ending way behind 360 that sony would support the console 7-8 years?

Well, one thing that happened in the last few years without anyone really noticing is Sony's 1st party releases have become the most important games on the system. It certainly wasn't the case with PSone, but now, almost all the games that immediately spring to mind as important (God of War, Socom, Jak & Daxter, Ico, SotC, Gran Tourismo), are now PS2 1st party. OK, i'm ignoring some big players (GTA, MGS, FF), but its still a big shift.

Nintendo's been sputtering on for almost 10 years now pretty much solely on the strength of their 1st party. And now it looks like they are coming back in a major way. So yeah, if Sony doesn't bankrupt themselves, i think Sony will continue supporting PS3 for about 7 years.

 

[The Innocent X]

Well, one thing that happened in the last few years without anyone really noticing is Sony's 1st party releases have become the most important games on the system. It certainly wasn't the case with PSone, but now, almost all the games that immediately spring to mind as important (God of War, Socom, Jak & Daxter, Ico, SotC, Gran Tourismo), are now PS2 1st party. OK, i'm ignoring some big players (GTA, MGS, FF), but its still a big shift.
.

I would say they grew the first party by re-investing the profits from the PS2, so its a bit of a circular argument.

 

[3rdman]

I mentioned this in the "thread that shall not be named, but I had predicted (wrongly, of course) that a low end PS3 with DVD drive would be made. To this day, I don't understand why Sony didn't do this...they could have had their cake and ate it too. Leave the high-end version with BR which would allow those who wanted HD movies the ability to enjoy them and a low cost alternative to those who can't afford it.

It made so much sense to me that I'm still surprised that they're doing BR across the board.

 

[Arsenal]

Unless they want to abandon any hope of PS3 backwards compatibility in later consoles they'll also be required to have Blu-Ray in any post-PS3 Playstation console regardless of whether it wins the format war or not.

This is actually a very interesting point...

If Blu-ray were to fail for whatever reason, PS would still be paying for it beyond just this generation. Its such a big risk for the company - it will be fascinating to watch the events unfold, but I sure would not want to be a shareholder.

 

[Zaptruder]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the PS3's 2X Blu-ray drive read slower than the X360's 12X-DVD drive?

Actually it doesn't.

A few factors are involved, suffice to say that amortized sustained transfer rate, PS3 and X360 are on par, while PS3 has much better seek times... and is much quieter.

 

[The Innocent X]

It made so much sense to me that I'm still surprised that they're doing BR across the board.

They are worried no-one would buy the more expensive one. Plus the cost of EVERY game having to have 2 versions.

 

[chinch]

ken greatly contributes to these HW problems since he isn't grounded to reality.

ps3 could have been an AUTOMATIC slam dunk by using a realistic chipset, dvd and $199-250 launch cost. wii60 would be dead, dead, dead.

sony has gone from "making stuff people want" (ie. vcr, walkman, trinitron, ps) years ago to the "make stuff SONY wants to make" (no MP3, sacd, bluray, ps3, rootkit, notebooks, pda, etc.)... regardless of actual customer desires.

big problem.

 

[jett]

Exactly. Those smaller chunks allow it to work whereas an actual full blown installation would take many times longer. Ninja Gaiden handled it beautifully (as did Halo 2).


As I've said, it goes beyond speed alone. There are many factors here.

Did you read the bit about Prey recently? When files were assembled on disc initially, it was taking upwards of 5 minutes to load a level. By breaking each level into chunks (and repeating data), they were able to reduce it to ~45 seconds. Additional space is going to be very important for this reason. When assets grow in size to the point that dupilcate data becomes difficult to impossible on a DVD9, I believe the benefits of a larger disc will begin to prove themselves.

45 seconds for loading times is goddamn insane if you ask me, btw. And when comparing the average speeds(which is where BD allegedly has the advantage) of blu-ray at 2x and 360's 12x DVD drive...the 360 still comes out on top by a small margin. Pre-caching/streaming/repeated data will help, but how much will it help. You can't directly compare the XBOX's loading times to the theorical ones of the PS3 either...since the XBOX has a lot less RAM space to fill up. I guess this dicussion will wait until the console launches...then we'll see.

 

[dark10x]

45 seconds for loading times is goddamn insane if you ask me, btw.

Yes, I agree...but it WAS 5 minutes. 5 minutes.

Data organization is extremely important.

And when comparing the average speeds(which is where BD allegedly has the advantage) of blu-ray at 2x and 360's 12x DVD drive...the 360 still comes out on top by a small margin.

How do you figure? The BR drive offers faster seek times (among other things). Do you know what made UMD so damn slow? Seek times.

I maintain that a faster DVD drive would have been a mistake (for games).

 

[teiresias]

ken greatly contributes to these HW problems since he isn't grounded to reality.

ps3 could have been an AUTOMATIC slam dunk by using a realistic chipset, dvd and $199-250 launch cost. wii60 would be dead, dead, dead.

sony has gone from "making stuff people want" (ie. vcr, walkman, trinitron, ps) years ago to the "make stuff SONY wants to make" (no MP3, sacd, bluray, ps3, rootkit, notebooks, pda, etc.)... regardless of actual customer desires.

big problem.

I'm sorry, I agree about alot of things concerning Kuturagi, but "realistic chipset"? I see nothing wrong with Cell, and if news is to be believed they've got plenty of those on hand and it is presenting no issue. I'd also argue alot of the stuff on your list of "make stuff SONY wants to make" has little to nothing to do with Kuturagi - particularly in light of his views on Sony's behavior toward content control.

 

[jett]

Yes, I agree...but it WAS 5 minutes. 5 minutes.

Data organization is extremely important.


How do you figure? The BR drive offers faster seek times (among other things). Do you know what made UMD so damn slow? Seek times.

I maintain that a faster DVD drive would have been a mistake (for games).

It was in a chart from the blu-ray association or whatever that compared loading times.

 

[dark10x]

It was in a chart from the blu-ray association or whatever that compared loading times.

Do you have the chart?