E_Darkness
Member
I skip sections in reading when I find it too hard too.
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Let Us Skip Boss Fights
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Glass Shark
Banned
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SliceSabre
Banned
You actually get to experience things happen rather than walk up to the boss and then cutscene. Nier's bosses are awesome and even if the game is basically beating the boss for you, you're still seeing everything happening.
I think games could be better designed but skipping content doesnt seem like a great solution.
A boss fight should be a test of your skills and knowledge and not unfair to the point it needs to be skipped.
The need to skip either means the player or designer has failed at something. Either the difficulty or know how is poorly presented by the designer or the player is incapable to taking steps to improve. Some players may not read a necessary hint or may be set in their ways which are ineffective.
Like a lot of old games have absolutely terrible mechanics that arent fun to deal with. Games dont have lives or timers anymore for a reason. But devs have found ways to make failure still interesting.
A boss fight should be a test of your skills and knowledge and not unfair to the point it needs to be skipped.
The need to skip either means the player or designer has failed at something. Either the difficulty or know how is poorly presented by the designer or the player is incapable to taking steps to improve. Some players may not read a necessary hint or may be set in their ways which are ineffective.
Like a lot of old games have absolutely terrible mechanics that arent fun to deal with. Games dont have lives or timers anymore for a reason. But devs have found ways to make failure still interesting.
My sentiment exactly.
I love everything in between but having to fight the same boss x amount of times to finally defeat it and go back to what I actually like about the game can be pretty tiring.
I know "git gud" and all that (don't have the time nor the desire really) but seriously I would be perfectly fine if (some) games did away with bosses...
So you would or wouldn't be upset if someone chose to use cheat engine or some other tools to make let them skip or blaze through a game?
EventHorizon
Member
First, who cares what you think about what people do with your book THAT THEY PAID FOR. Seriously, why even bring that up? They own it. It doesn't affect you at all. They can do whatever they want.
Second, comparing a story to a boss fight makes no sense. Nothing in a story prevents the reader from continuing. A boss fight that the player can't get through, or doesn't want to get through, does. That is far more detrimental to the creator's intention for the game than a player simply skipping that part.
Finally yes, you should be able to skip boss fights. This is especially true for games that use an entirely different mechanic for the boss fight than for the rest of the game. People requesting this option typically liked the vast majority of the game...EXCEPT for the totally out of place boss fights. When the alternative is for the player to put down the game in disgust and never buy another one in the franchise, there is no possible reason not to allow this option.
axisofweevils
Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
I agree. Ive lost count of the amount of games I abandoned due to a way too frustrating boss.
I've never gotten this sentiment for souls, as you can already effectively skip bosses already.
Just summon a couple of phantoms to beat the boss for you. Sit back and eat popcorn or make a sandwich.
xBladeM6x
Member
As someone who grew up loving sites like CCC (Cheat Code Central), reading this just hurts me. This should definitely be an option for boss skips, if nothing else.
Being able to skip Bed of Chaos sounds amazing.
Brewster123
Neo Member
I would say, in lieu of skipping boss fights, to instead offer a scaling difficulty slider. If one can simply skip a boss fight, they may lose out on the tone and flow of the story in more story important based games. I believe simply having a difficulty slider a la Kid Icarus: Uprising would make video games, as a medium, more open and would still maintain the user experience.
That being said, I don't think skipping boss fights would be a giant failure; it would work just fine. I just think allowing a variable difficulty would work better. Heck, a game could work-in an option for both if it wanted too.
That being said, I don't think skipping boss fights would be a giant failure; it would work just fine. I just think allowing a variable difficulty would work better. Heck, a game could work-in an option for both if it wanted too.
I'll never play through the copy of Undertale I bought because the twitch combat was too difficult for me, not to mention repeated so often that I would get sloppy and burn through health items.
I really wanted to like and enjoy Undertale, but didn't have the option to do so because it leans so heavily on repeating the same combat encounters over and over if you explore certain areas, inevitably burning through a very finite health resource.
So I came away from Undertale pretty sour about the whole thing.
I don't want to watch a Let's Play, I want to keep playing past this bit.
Let the player enable things like god mode / invincibility and coast through the bosses, but still see the event.
I really wanted to like and enjoy Undertale, but didn't have the option to do so because it leans so heavily on repeating the same combat encounters over and over if you explore certain areas, inevitably burning through a very finite health resource.
So I came away from Undertale pretty sour about the whole thing.
I don't want to watch a Let's Play, I want to keep playing past this bit.
Let the player enable things like god mode / invincibility and coast through the bosses, but still see the event.
ronaldthump
Member
why play a game then?
also, there's plenty of games out there. play something without a boss fight then.
also, there's plenty of games out there. play something without a boss fight then.
dealer-
Member
Same. Complete works of Shakespeare was a slog before I found this neat trick. I just use wikipedia to cover the general plot details I've missed.
poodaddy
Member
I don't understand everyone who keeps coming in to drop a mean little drive by shitpost stating how stupid they find the topic at hand, when noone seems to be offereing an explanation of how making games more accessible to others impacts their experience. Check this: I pretty much always play things at the hardest difficulty just because that's how I enjoy it, I want to feel the stress and overcome it with dexterity and skill, but that sure as shit doesn't mean I expect everyone else to. I played some Guilty Gear with my little girl last night, and we had an absolutely great time. Guess what? She chose the green control choice thing that essentially means button mash to pull off amazing combos, and I chose technical, (the blue one), and although she was racking up crazy damage on me by mashing a button we still had an incredible time. That mode being there enabled her to enjoy the game in a way that she wouldn't have been able to otherwise, so could someone please tell me how that's a bad thing?
And for those of you who keep coming in here and talking about skipping books, here's the thing; you may not like it or want to hear it, but lots of people actually do this. I let people borrow my books all the time and I love discussing them with people after they read them, and I've found that it's pretty common for folks to completely skip chapters that deal heavily with religion, politics, marriage, or taxes; true story. I mean, yeah, I wish they read those chapters as I feel they didn't get the whole experience, but what's the point in being against their being able to do so?
And for those of you who keep coming in here and talking about skipping books, here's the thing; you may not like it or want to hear it, but lots of people actually do this. I let people borrow my books all the time and I love discussing them with people after they read them, and I've found that it's pretty common for folks to completely skip chapters that deal heavily with religion, politics, marriage, or taxes; true story. I mean, yeah, I wish they read those chapters as I feel they didn't get the whole experience, but what's the point in being against their being able to do so?
Suzushiiro
Banned
Whether shit like this should be done is entirely dependent on what your game is trying to do and who your game is for. If it's a game that's primarily focused on telling a story- an RPG, a game like Uncharted/TLoU, or a visual novel-type thing like Danganronpa- then yeah, it's probably better for the game to err on the side of either having an easy mode or just plain being easy. If it's a AAA game designed for the mass market like Assassin's Creed or a game that's meant to be accessible to children like your average Mario then yeah, it should probably also err on the side of not being too hard or having an easy mode. And as Mesoian said, the vast majority of games on the market in this day and age do that stuff, which is the entire reason why this conversation keeps coming up in the rare case where the new cool release that everyone's talking about doesn't take this route.
That said, there's also an audience that wants games (or even just a subset of content within a game, ie hardcore MMO raiders) that put a big ol' sign on the door saying "YOU MUST GIT THIS GUD TO ENTER" and tell everyone who's unwilling or unable to do that to fuck right off. Making these games easier, be it by an optional thing or not, inherently makes them worse to that crowd. You may think that's a silly thing to want, but that doesn't mean they're not as entitled to games they want as the people who like MOBAs, the people who like artsy walking simulators, the people who like open world games, the people who like FPSes, the people who like games that are more cutscene/story than gameplay, or the people who like cute-girls-doing-cute-things titty fanservice games. Not every individual game has to be for everyone for gaming to be for everyone- if anything demanding that all games be accessible/enjoyable for everyone just hinders that goal by restricting what developers can do.
Beyond that, there's also situations where while the game as a whole isn't explicitly targeted at people who want hard games, the game needs to be hard in some parts/ways in order to do what it's trying to do. The Sans fight in Undertale is a solid example of a fight that needs to be ball-breakingly hard in order to work- all the effect that it's meant to have is gone if you don't legitimately struggle against him. Breath of the Wild is another game where the more difficult/dangerous parts are important to have, because they encourage you to explore more for ways to make yourself stronger. More generally speaking, games with a focus on exploration tend to benefit from being hard/dangerous at the start when you don't have many tools/power-ups and easier at the end when you have all of the tools you need, as it enhances the feeling of starting out in this dangerous and unknown world and gradually becoming its master.
That said, there's also an audience that wants games (or even just a subset of content within a game, ie hardcore MMO raiders) that put a big ol' sign on the door saying "YOU MUST GIT THIS GUD TO ENTER" and tell everyone who's unwilling or unable to do that to fuck right off. Making these games easier, be it by an optional thing or not, inherently makes them worse to that crowd. You may think that's a silly thing to want, but that doesn't mean they're not as entitled to games they want as the people who like MOBAs, the people who like artsy walking simulators, the people who like open world games, the people who like FPSes, the people who like games that are more cutscene/story than gameplay, or the people who like cute-girls-doing-cute-things titty fanservice games. Not every individual game has to be for everyone for gaming to be for everyone- if anything demanding that all games be accessible/enjoyable for everyone just hinders that goal by restricting what developers can do.
Beyond that, there's also situations where while the game as a whole isn't explicitly targeted at people who want hard games, the game needs to be hard in some parts/ways in order to do what it's trying to do. The Sans fight in Undertale is a solid example of a fight that needs to be ball-breakingly hard in order to work- all the effect that it's meant to have is gone if you don't legitimately struggle against him. Breath of the Wild is another game where the more difficult/dangerous parts are important to have, because they encourage you to explore more for ways to make yourself stronger. More generally speaking, games with a focus on exploration tend to benefit from being hard/dangerous at the start when you don't have many tools/power-ups and easier at the end when you have all of the tools you need, as it enhances the feeling of starting out in this dangerous and unknown world and gradually becoming its master.
Unaha-Closp
Member
Sure. I'm not a hardcore gamer by any means and any chance for more options is fine by me. I've tried handing my Mum a dualshock controller, my sister too, and they look at it like it's a snake or scorpion. Not strictly what this article is about but the notion is the same. Making games more accessible through options for more people is fine with me. I can talk about a movie, book, tv show, song, album, painting etc with my Mum and Sister but never a game. There is a barrier to entry that does exclude everyone and if Boss Battles are an obstacle then an option to skip them is fine. If that option helps 1 person through a game that they could not get through that is valuable I think. Makes no difference to me how they got through it.
I thought the combat and rune puzzle solving in Hellblade was tedious and I fell off. If there was an option with no combat or hunting runes - I would have turned that sucker on and finished that game 100%. Sure it would have been a walking visual novel at that point. But it could be both. Options are not scary.
I thought the combat and rune puzzle solving in Hellblade was tedious and I fell off. If there was an option with no combat or hunting runes - I would have turned that sucker on and finished that game 100%. Sure it would have been a walking visual novel at that point. But it could be both. Options are not scary.
MidnightCowboy
Member
I'm not against having options, I'm against the notion that every game has to be for everyone. Why should a creator have to appease different and often contrasting desires amongst potential buyers? Just let them make what they want the way they want to, and if it comes out and isn't for you, move on.
Ordinaryundone
Member
I mean, if you have the will, you have the way. That's what "git gud" is all about. Or as Undertale would put it, determination. Undertale isn't some insurmountable hurdle of video game difficulty with the exception of a boss or two specifically designed to be nearly insurmountable hurdles of video game difficulty for story reasons. If you really want to keep playing, then keep playing! You'll get through it eventually. And in doing so, honestly, you'll have more thoroughly interacted with the game's themes and premise than someone who simply coasted through it.
Can you clarify? Just curoius. Because you find the subject matter too dark, words too tough, or just bored? I could see the boredom sometimes. I used to like stephen king growing up but damn if that man couldn't describe a hill for 10 pages.
Hideki Kamiya
Banned
If you don't like boss fights, don't play the game lmao.
Captain Fun
Neo Member
Accessibility options are great and should be in more games, but I'm not sure a "skip button" is the right path, or that all games necessarily need it. Someone mentioned Kid Icarus' difficulty slider and that's a very elegant solution, although it would take a lot of balancing.
That said, some games are uncompromising and polarizing by design, and that's how some communities end up being built. I don't really see anything wrong with that, if that's what the developers want to make.
That said, some games are uncompromising and polarizing by design, and that's how some communities end up being built. I don't really see anything wrong with that, if that's what the developers want to make.
Duchess O'Death
Member
Yes please! Boss fights are always annoying.
I would go as far to say that without the challenge, the attachment to undertale that people have wouldn't exist. The difficulty that the game eventually gets to is part of the story.
I mean, I'm sorry you decided to stop, but that's what that game is. Without the gameplay, it's literally a passive experience.
to be fair to shakespeare, his shit wasn't meant to be read anyways
It's true.
DontTouchMe
Member
absolutely not
I don't see why a developer should be forced to add any feature into their game. I know this happens all the time anyway but I'd rather a developer be given more freedom, not less. Ideally they would design the game exactly how they envisage it and consumers can do research and decide if they want to play it.
More options are always good. I agree with the article.
Personally, I'd like if games let me skip everything except the bosses though. There are many games where I slog through the rest of the content just to get to the boss fights. Would be better to let me cut the fluff and get straight to the meat. Basically have a Boss Rush mode unlocked from the beginning.
Personally, I'd like if games let me skip everything except the bosses though. There are many games where I slog through the rest of the content just to get to the boss fights. Would be better to let me cut the fluff and get straight to the meat. Basically have a Boss Rush mode unlocked from the beginning.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I cant imagine a more unfulfilling and boring way to play a game. What is actually the point.
Bu-bu-movies and tv!
I can go and watch four movies for the price of a game or pick up a couple of seasons of a show. Theyre not equivalent things simply because they both entertain.
Bu-bu-movies and tv!
I can go and watch four movies for the price of a game or pick up a couple of seasons of a show. Theyre not equivalent things simply because they both entertain.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Should any content be gated by any kind of challenge? /thinkingemoji
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
If you want to skip boss fights just watch a let's play because you clearly have no intention of passing the devs " Did they learn?" Checks which means you are not invested in the first place
I think it's like seeing a movie on DVD with a chapter select so you can just watch your favorite scenes vs in theaters where you have to watch the whole thing.
dealer-
Member
to be fair to shakespeare, his shit wasn't meant to be read anyways
lol you're not wrong. I was trying to read Hamlet last night and it was a similar experience to playing Contra III on the SNES Classic. Noped out of that shit after ten minutes.
deltatheta
Member
I mean, sure if you're making high budget corridor shooters where the gameplay is just slowly following a fixed, linear path interspersed with lengthy, non-interactive cutscenes, I can see how having a "Let's Play" mode would be appealing. Those are the least interesting kinds of video games, in my opinion, and it kind of chafes when games writers act like that's the only type of game out there.
In other genres player choice is so integral to the experience that this kind of feature wouldn't make any sense... e.g. how would you "skip over" a difficult conflict in a game of Civilization? The game state is constantly evolving according to decisions that the players and NPCs are making. Sure you could have a skilled AI take over for you, for a while, but that would be deeply unsatisfying.
In other genres player choice is so integral to the experience that this kind of feature wouldn't make any sense... e.g. how would you "skip over" a difficult conflict in a game of Civilization? The game state is constantly evolving according to decisions that the players and NPCs are making. Sure you could have a skilled AI take over for you, for a while, but that would be deeply unsatisfying.
EventHorizon
Member
It absolutely does make it a silly want because every other desired genre you mentioned pertains only to the gameplay within the game for the person playing it. Your GIT GUD crowd is only saying they don't want to be able to skip boss fights because of how it affects OTHER people. If the gameplay did affect other people then I'd agree with you 100%. For example, skipping content should not help get a high score or trophies. However, if we are talking purely about single player content, then there is no excuse not to be able to skip content.
The only possible exception to that rule I can think of would be if the gameplay was balanced with the expectation that players would have to make sacrificial decisions early on to prepare for the boss. Being able to skip the boss would trivialize those decisions. The classic example of this is not using a powerful, but limited use, weapon to save it for the boss. Then again, that is a horrible game design decision that should be avoided anyway.
Re: the people saying more options arent always bad.
What do you do when a reviewer plays the game, skips the boss fights, doesnt get the full context of the story, and then gives the game a bad review because the story confuses them? Its not as simple as letting people simply bypass content they dont like.
I think having something, anything, is necessary or else you get people that bash on something because they didnt make the effort to actually take in the entirety of the most base level and basic content the developer provided them with.
It should be noted that Im only speaking about games that are story heavy AND gameplay heavy.
What do you do when a reviewer plays the game, skips the boss fights, doesnt get the full context of the story, and then gives the game a bad review because the story confuses them? Its not as simple as letting people simply bypass content they dont like.
I think having something, anything, is necessary or else you get people that bash on something because they didnt make the effort to actually take in the entirety of the most base level and basic content the developer provided them with.
It should be noted that Im only speaking about games that are story heavy AND gameplay heavy.
BRocknRolla
Member
I'm aware of where it comes from.
And we're beyond where, "Aw, the little baby wants to play our game," is actually a funny joke. It isn't as though it's offensive; it's just dumb.
I don't even know how to respond to this. I'm taking it personally? I think someone may be projecting.
As I play most of my games on hard, this sort of thing isn't even directed at me. But there's no reason to insult a player for choosing the lowest difficulty, even in a joking manner. There aren't many games that do this, and many modern games even express difficulty in a much more accurate and descriptive manner, where they talk about wanting to "experience the story without being challenged" or something of that manner.
There's a level of defensiveness here that I do not understand. There are just better ways to do this.
"Someone may be projecting" lol what does this even mean in this context. You're the one activated by a joke in a video game. I'm not. I think someone might be confused and pointlessly doubling down despite already looking silly for taking umbrage with a 25 year old joke.
Cramoss
Member
You must be fun at parties
Suburban Thug
Member
The game probably gives you more hours of entertainment so why not embrace more options? Having a "passive" mode where you skip boss fights doesn't impact your ability to play the game on a higher difficulty.
BRocknRolla
Member
Like I said, this level of defensiveness is bizarre. I have no idea why my calling something dumb is bothering you this much.
Ah, personal insults.
I get that a core argument of this article is an us vs them mentality amongst seasoned gamers and I cant deny how pervasive it seems to be, but I think Id like to pursue a different angle here.
To me, games are meant to be challenging. Traditionally, a game is not only a leisure activity, but a chance to learn and develop skills or certain ways of thinking. While there are some titles out there which are unfairly difficult, most lean into that idea of challenge as a learning experience.
We, as people who play a lot of games, tend to enjoy or chase feeling that sense of accomplishment that comes from conquering something that previously felt very difficult (though, through the learning process, it may be less difficult in the future).
I believe that most people are capable of completing difficult games if only they actually give themselves the time and effort to learn. If you dont get pleasure from that sort of growth, I dont know what to tell you. Ignore the key concept of what makes a game a game and go watch a movie or something.
But I, personally, would love to see others achieve that same level of accomplishment. I dont want to lord it over other people that Im a better gamer, Id just like to see more people become better gamers so I can share those feelings with them.
For me, it isnt us vs them but join us!
To me, games are meant to be challenging. Traditionally, a game is not only a leisure activity, but a chance to learn and develop skills or certain ways of thinking. While there are some titles out there which are unfairly difficult, most lean into that idea of challenge as a learning experience.
We, as people who play a lot of games, tend to enjoy or chase feeling that sense of accomplishment that comes from conquering something that previously felt very difficult (though, through the learning process, it may be less difficult in the future).
I believe that most people are capable of completing difficult games if only they actually give themselves the time and effort to learn. If you dont get pleasure from that sort of growth, I dont know what to tell you. Ignore the key concept of what makes a game a game and go watch a movie or something.
But I, personally, would love to see others achieve that same level of accomplishment. I dont want to lord it over other people that Im a better gamer, Id just like to see more people become better gamers so I can share those feelings with them.
For me, it isnt us vs them but join us!
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