Lord British
Member
I'd play a lot more JRPGs if I could skip all combat. That would be amazing actually.
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Let Us Skip Boss Fights
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OrbitalBeard
Member
I feel like most $60 AAA titles already go out of their way to make the experience as accessible to the widest audience as possible. Easy modes and the option to skip sections of the game if you fail often enough tend to be pretty normal these days. I'm sure there are exceptions but for the most part, if you're buying a blockbuster video game, it's been designed to appeal to a very large section of the market.
The only games where this type of thing tends to be an issue are with some AA releases and titles created by indie developers. As these games tend to be created for a specific audience, I don't see why they should feel pressure to design their game around the idea of appealing to everyone.
You're not actually completing the standard that rewards you the trophy.
spazchicken
Member
Skip boss fights?
Chapter select before you've even played the game?
Just sell your consoles and watch playthroughs of games that you kinda wanna play but not really, on Youtube.
Chapter select before you've even played the game?
Just sell your consoles and watch playthroughs of games that you kinda wanna play but not really, on Youtube.
A lot of hardcore gamers like the discovery and exploration of the game world. They buy the game day 1, and try to figure stuff out like - "oh, is there a secret boss here, wait, there's 2?" - "this boss drops an item 3% of the time and the description explains the ending"... "the true final boss can only be beaten if you do these specific things" etc... So everybody is racing through, talking about it online, trying to figure it all out.
I understand why seeing somebody skip through the whole thing in 45 minutes, and just putting all that info out there day 1 would be annoying to them.
Lunarwhale
Member
I really hate the jump to conclusion that this is about an elitist mentality rather than concerns regarding quality design, but I agree for the most part. Yes, bosses should just be generally better designed, but there are still a lot of AAA games that just have shit bosses because the mechanics aren't there to make them interesting. Every time this comes up, it's important to remember that this isn't necessarily about games like the Souls titles, which are heavily based around skill and character progression, but games which have other focuses.
Think back to Dragon Age II, or vanilla Deus Ex: Human Revolution. The former has this atrocious boss fight at the end of the second act. It's a bizarre gameplay change - a one versus one fight using a combat system designed for party-based combat, resulting in a mix of an RNG shitfest and genuinely atrocious design. I played through the game on the highest difficulty without issue until that part, where I had to drop the difficulty. I think this is a valid solution, personally - boss fights should serve some narrative purpose if not a skill one, so it makes sense to include an easy mode if you still want the player to experience them from this perspective.
Deus Ex: Human Revoluton had some of the most infamously bad fights of the last generation because they were nothing but horribly designed bullet-sponges. They cast aside the varied gameplay options that the game had introduced up to that point and were just about unloading whatever ammo you had on hand. There is no narrative impact to these fights, and the skill gating aspect hardly applies here.
Think back to Dragon Age II, or vanilla Deus Ex: Human Revolution. The former has this atrocious boss fight at the end of the second act. It's a bizarre gameplay change - a one versus one fight using a combat system designed for party-based combat, resulting in a mix of an RNG shitfest and genuinely atrocious design. I played through the game on the highest difficulty without issue until that part, where I had to drop the difficulty. I think this is a valid solution, personally - boss fights should serve some narrative purpose if not a skill one, so it makes sense to include an easy mode if you still want the player to experience them from this perspective.
Deus Ex: Human Revoluton had some of the most infamously bad fights of the last generation because they were nothing but horribly designed bullet-sponges. They cast aside the varied gameplay options that the game had introduced up to that point and were just about unloading whatever ammo you had on hand. There is no narrative impact to these fights, and the skill gating aspect hardly applies here.
I dunno why you'd play them then. They're mostly just crappy anime anyways >.>
Stone Ocean
Member
I mean, I get the argument but isn't it easier to just add a wider range of difficulty options to most games?
Greedings
Member
They could you know, just play something else.
This concept is ridiculous. I don't pick up a book and think, hey this sucks! But I should be able to finish it, I paid for it after all. I just don't read it and read something else.
People should stop playing games that aren't for them.
Lord British
Member
I like exploring villages and opening chests
It doesn't. I personally don't care either way. I just thought people would prefer that!
Lights and Waves
Member
The OP clearly calls out how this would help disabled gamers, and of course, GAF responds with "hur dur git gud!"
You know what? Sure. As long as the game doesn't reward you (like better equipment/endgame items) and you don't get achievements for completing the game. If you use the skip or play on a "just want to experience the story" difficulty then more power to you, as long as the rewards are equal to the effort, which is none.
Why would you ever play one then? The package outside of combat for the grand majority of JRPG's can be found in the worst anime series of any season.
I like exploring villages and opening chests
You may be more into survival games than JRPG's at that rate.
Some people do seem to find it insulting that they have to fail first before being offered the accesibility option.
*shrug*
Asking consumers to assume a level of personal responsibility for their purchases is occasionally too big of an ask for some of them.
If you're just going to skip boss fights than what's the point of playing the game? Just watch it on YouTube. You enjoy the moment to moment gameplay you say? Than it shouldn't be.to much to ask to put your skills to the test in what I'm sure is a relevitly straight forward challenge. If people really want this in games than who am I to say no, but every time this conversation comes up of removing challenge for the sake of convinence, it just sounds silly.
Ordinaryundone
Member
Lol that's basically the entire business doc of Cliff Notes. "You don't want to read this book, but someone out there expects you to anyway? Here's all the right things to day so you can pretend to be knowledgeable without putting in the effort!"
Let people skip whatever they want in games. We can do so in films, novels, music, might as well be able to it in games.
Now, it is slightly more complicated to implement in games, but I do think it is worthwhile.
Sure, it may "ruin the experience", but let the people who buy and play the game decide how they want to experience it.
Now, it is slightly more complicated to implement in games, but I do think it is worthwhile.
Sure, it may "ruin the experience", but let the people who buy and play the game decide how they want to experience it.
What standard? The standard youve set? Because Id assume the standard that rewards you the trophy would be the standard set by the devs. And if that standard allows you to skip content, then thats the standard.
They'd pretty much just be open-world adventure games at that point.
And that's one of the real issues behind all this: All this talk is just revealing that there might be a real market for pure adventure games to make a big entrance into the console market.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Games are for people who don't like them now.
also bringing up books and movies again nah fuck that
also bringing up books and movies again nah fuck that
AgentLampshade
Member
The only kind of skips I'll permit are the ones in MGS3 where the player uses their own intuition to snipe a boss early (also a fantastic example of cutscenes affecting gameplay) or just... wait until he dies of old age. THAT'S how you design a boss skip.
Glass Shark
Banned
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DarkConfidant
Member
I agree that they should make better boss fights. Even disregarding any subjectivity in determining which boss is "good" or not, I think in lieu of likely failures to achieve better fights, I'd rather have most devs put a chapter select/fast forward/skip feature in their game rather than just hope they make it.
Also Uncharted is a great example of devs deciding to ruin their design for the last fight of the game. I don't know what the temptation is, but if there's going to be a bad boss, they usually save it for last.
This in turn often ruins the pacing of the end of a story.
I don't know how many times I've gotten really frustrated at the final bosses (usually because they're ignoring the things the game has taught to be believe throughout the rest of my playthrough), and then the ending cutscene seems sooo off-tone because I'm frustrated and have spent a disproportionate amount of time fighting the boss than the actual characters act like they did.
Trophies are functionally worthless so they shouldn't matter to the person who has to play on easy mode with trophies disabled, nor should they matter to the hardcore gamer but we all know who cares and who doesn't.
Don't tell devs what to do, and don't try to say that games "should" be anything in particular.
Secondly, the article uses a really pithy and dismissive tone that made it difficult not to write him off instantaneously.
As for his point, it's nonsensical to compare games to movies. In movies, the characters acquire experience and use that experience later on. If you skip to the end, you merely missed the opportunity to see them gain that experience - they still have it, you just didn't see it. Not so in games. If you do not gain the experience of playing the game yourself, you are an entirely different person by skipping to the end of the game. Maybe that could be a mechanic for a single title, but to suggest it should be a universal norm is disparaging to the art form on a fundamental level.
A more apt comparison would be to look at the Mona Lisa and complain there's no viewer option to swap through a list of facial expressions.
Secondly, the article uses a really pithy and dismissive tone that made it difficult not to write him off instantaneously.
As for his point, it's nonsensical to compare games to movies. In movies, the characters acquire experience and use that experience later on. If you skip to the end, you merely missed the opportunity to see them gain that experience - they still have it, you just didn't see it. Not so in games. If you do not gain the experience of playing the game yourself, you are an entirely different person by skipping to the end of the game. Maybe that could be a mechanic for a single title, but to suggest it should be a universal norm is disparaging to the art form on a fundamental level.
A more apt comparison would be to look at the Mona Lisa and complain there's no viewer option to swap through a list of facial expressions.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Noncombat modes like AC makes 100x more sense than skipping skill gates, there aren't that many skill gates anymore and allowing a player to skip them would lead to them getting owned later on.
Like, if you need to skip Zelda bosses, you're probably getting killed 20 times an hour in the main game. Noncombat mode in BotW would make more sense.
Like, if you need to skip Zelda bosses, you're probably getting killed 20 times an hour in the main game. Noncombat mode in BotW would make more sense.
Maybe. Just maybe. Games with boss fights aren't for you, Walker.
I thought we went over this already.
It's not because you like something (the narrative, the art, whatever) in a game that you have the right to play through the entirety of it. That's kinda the point of games in first place; challenge you to win/see the end.
Some don't do this though, so maybe you should look into them.
I thought we went over this already.
It's not because you like something (the narrative, the art, whatever) in a game that you have the right to play through the entirety of it. That's kinda the point of games in first place; challenge you to win/see the end.
Some don't do this though, so maybe you should look into them.
A game isn't the same as a movie, just as a painting in a gallery isn't the same as the board game Scrabble. Making universal rules for consumption of art is foolish.
Yeah it really doesn't matter if someone used an easy mode or a skip bosses button to get a trophy. Who really cares? If you did it yourself and got the trophy then you can feel the sense of achievement for having done it your way. If someone decides to skip stuff and gets the trophy it really shouldn't have that much of a bearing on whether you enjoyed getting yours or not.
There's 4 JRPGs on the Snes Mini I don't really want to touch because I'm not keen on a lot of grinding and trial and error - if I could have played them like Zelda then I may be a bit more open to enjoying their cool storytelling and scenarios
lifeexpectancy
Member
As an author I wouldnt be super happy about people skipping to the end of my novel, defeating the purpose of the plot and story arc. Just because you CAN doesnt me you SHOULD.
Is this a strawman argument he is putting forth for skipping boss fights or making games easier?
It's idiotic if you ask me. I re watch movies and re read books frequently, yet I dont skip to the end. Who fucking does that?
NO dude, you shouldnt be able to skip boss fights. Dont like a dev's game or find it too hard? Play a different one. FFS game developers do not need to cater to EVERYONE.
Is this a strawman argument he is putting forth for skipping boss fights or making games easier?
It's idiotic if you ask me. I re watch movies and re read books frequently, yet I dont skip to the end. Who fucking does that?
NO dude, you shouldnt be able to skip boss fights. Dont like a dev's game or find it too hard? Play a different one. FFS game developers do not need to cater to EVERYONE.
The option should be there, but I do agree that this probably has more to do with people not finding games they personally like and are, instead, trying to play the next big thing on the docket, hoping to eek some entertainment out of it. But hey, Breaking Bad wasn't for everyone. Game of Thrones wasn't for everyone. Star Wars wasn't for everyone. Big Bang Theory wasn't for everyone.
There's nothing wrong with giving up on a game if you simply aren't enjoying it. The crux of this argument usually wraps around the tent pole of "but what if I want to play dark souls one day and I can't get past this certain point?" Are you actually planning on playing Dark Souls? Is Dark Souls the kind of game you regularly get into and enjoy? Because if not, even if you could skip every boss in the game, you're probably still not going to enjoy yourself. I have a friend who plays through all of hte Tales games and comes at me telling me how terrible they are and how anime bullshit it is and how grindy everything is. And My response is, "well then why are you playing that game?"
Find a game like you. Don't be beholden to complete something if you're not enjoying it.
it's a fair compromise. You can skip the boss and continue the game, but you don't get to pretend you beat it.
GeordieMark
Member
Im all for this. People play games differently and have varying amounts of free time. This just makes games a bit more accessible without affecting the players who want to be challenged.
Canklestank
Neo Member
My first reaction was that bosses are often the best part of a game, but then I remembered the second to last boss in Peace Walker, and yeah, that would have been nice. That boss was so tedious and took so much time, I spent hours and hours on that boss alone (It took nearly an hour to beat it) and I finally just gave up. Ended up watching a let's play of the ending so I knew what was going on in Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain.
I'm for it, especially as an accessibility feature. I hope everyone at least tries to beat the bosses, or at least figure out the "puzzle" before using the skip. This would probably also help with player retention. I'm sure devs would like if more people were able to actually finish their games, since most of their work usually ends up unseen.
I'm for it, especially as an accessibility feature. I hope everyone at least tries to beat the bosses, or at least figure out the "puzzle" before using the skip. This would probably also help with player retention. I'm sure devs would like if more people were able to actually finish their games, since most of their work usually ends up unseen.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Let us bypass SOME bosses by dialogue/sequence breaking.
Ah, who am i kidding, this is already on the road to a neurotic default as the threads existance attests to (which oddly enough makes bosses harder).
Ah, who am i kidding, this is already on the road to a neurotic default as the threads existance attests to (which oddly enough makes bosses harder).
I enjoy seeing something I earned only having <2% of the players who have played the game actually get it. It takes time and skill to earn them.
Being able to just get trophies by skipping things essentially makes them "You tried" stickers/participation trophies.
His analogy is more like when you're reading a book and see this passage where they spend 2 pages describing an uninteresting place so you just kind of skip 4 out of 5 lines until something more interesting happens.
Or when an author feels like having long paragraphs interrupting what you wish it was a fluid dialogue.
If you're into the games for the story, why not? I've skipped some combats in VBTM using the God Mode cheat because the battle system is awful. If you want to feel part of an exclusive group, tie a group to the boss.
Games have way too many awful boss fights. For example, I have Uncharted 2 with every level finished in Hard and Crushing but the last one because fuck Lazarevic.
We should automatically receive all trophies in a game as soon as we buy it. They're game content so we should have the right to them.
No it's not, put in a level select cheat in the game and BOOM there you go, however cheats don't exist anymore because lootboxes.
I mostly agree with the article, but yeah - I agree with your last point. A large part of game design is teaching players. If they skip the part where we teach the player, then they're going to have a bad time after that. And then they'll potentially not enjoy the game, give it a bad review, etc.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Yes.
Skipping boss fights in BotW (which is the only specific game he complains about) would not make the overall game any more access. It's a hard game.
Man, if you do this, everything else outside of combat better be CLUTCH, because the focus of your game then goes from what you're doing with the game to what the game is telling/showing/offering you. And the writing in 90% of games is SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT.
It can be done. Journey was my game of the year when it came out. But man, I would not trust most AAA devs to handle a game that doesn't hinge on some sort of gameplay loop.
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