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[Miggytronz]

Let's start with some common principles or common ground around the guns.

Can we start by agreeing that peeps with mental issues shouldn't possess guns? Would anyone really want a nut job to have guns?

This is literally the biggest issue with this shooting.

FBI
Florida
Local Authorities
Health Clinic

How did they all drop the ball with stopping this guy from buying guns legally. The health clinic should of notified the proper channels to stop it right?

 

[KevinKeene]

Let's start with some common principles or common ground around the guns.

Can we start by agreeing that peeps with mental issues shouldn't possess guns? Would anyone really want a nut job to have guns?

Most people are revealed to be 'nuts' only after they shot someone.

Fuck bullies who cause 'nuts'.

 

[rokkerkory]

This is literally the biggest issue with this shooting.

FBI
Florida
Local Authorities
Health Clinic

How did they all drop the ball with stopping this guy from buying guns legally. The health clinic should of notified the proper channels to stop it right?

I am hoping we'll get some answers for what happened in Florida. But I have read there has been a roll-back of law and funding for some of these things as well. I don't think ONE specific thing is the answer, it's going to be a combination of common sensible things that will make an impact. Will it make gun violence go away 100%? Nope, but we have to try to do something productive at this point. I am afraid we won't even get anywhere with the amount of NRA lobbying however.

 

[David___]

Let's start with some common principles or common ground around the guns.

Can we start by agreeing that peeps with mental issues shouldn't possess guns? Would anyone really want a nut job to have guns?

The problem regarding this is that mental health isn't a static thing. Someone who is perfectly normal could buy a bunch of guns for hobbiest reasons like collecting but 2 years later snaps, realizes he has guns, then decides to shoot a school up. At that point you have to make sure there are accessible means for everyone to get checked up if something they feel is wrong so there isn't a monetary deterrent to hold off on going to see someone. Something like that would need universal health care which is a whole nother battle that isn't really going any where. But yea, a starting point would be that people with known mental health issues shouldn't easily be able to buy these things in the first place.

 

[rokkerkory]

The problem regarding this is that mental health isn't a static thing. Someone who is perfectly normal could buy a bunch of guns for hobbiest reasons like collecting but 2 years later snaps, realizes he has guns, then decides to shoot a school up. At that point you have to make sure there are accessible means for everyone to get checked up if something they feel is wrong so there isn't a monetary deterrent to hold off on going to see someone. Something like that would need universal health care which is a whole nother battle that isn't really going any where. But yea, a starting point would be that people with known mental health issues shouldn't easily be able to buy these things in the first place.

Yes lets start with baby steps we cant solve everything at once.

 

[MEsoJD]

There will never be full gun control. There are 300 million guns in the USA, to outright ban them and make people give them up will never happen. The people who don't want their guns taken away will use them to keep them. Banning assault weapons could be a start but more people are killed per year by knives than assault weapons so it wouldn't do much in the long run.

I'd rather deal with a knife than a gun any day. Why can't we learn from other industrialized nations that have stricter gun laws and less deaths? Never say never. Gun control needs to be an issue constantly discussed within our society to truly change and make progress.
If it were harder to purchase a firearm through legal means, like various test, a month long waiting period, phych evaluation, and etc those kids would probably be alive. Yes, criminals will buy guns off the black market, but many fail to understand that market (black market) prices increases thus making it harder to acquire through illegal means as well.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Why does it sound awful?

It just seems strange to me that the most gun-culture country in the world tries so hard to pretend as if there's actually not that many guns around.

I’m pretty sure most guns are locked up in safes and homes, not just “around” out in the open. So it’s not weird to me that people are uncomfortable with what you suggested.

Just because someone owns a gun doesn’t mean he’s comfortable with widespread open carry or stationing armed guards around places like schools.

Wait so now this matters now?

You’re going to have to be less vague. I don’t know what you mean.

 

[pramod]

If "sounds awful" is your best argument against having guards at schools, I think seeing kids shot to death all the time sound awful too. I think I'd rather see armed guards than dead kids.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

I think seeing dead kids all the time sound awful too. I think I'd rather see armed guards than dead kids.

Do you have any data you could share to back up your assumption that putting armed guards in every US school would reduce the number of children killed in mass shootings?

 

[zelo-ca]

I really like Steven Crowder and the last 4 mins of his show on Thursday really gets to the heart of the ban guns debate for me.

 

[Warm Machine]

innocent peoples homes and places of business with the intention of stealing/raping/murdering.

Exactly. That is vanilla level crime. Usually murderers murder people they want murdered or were paid to kill. In Vancouver here we had our 8th gun death this year. All but 1 were targeted hits, the 1 was a stray bullet that killed a kid. Most of them were people known to police. Yes the black market exists in other countries yet other countries don't have your level of mass shooting sprees. Yes gun runners get shut down all the damn time because it is a criminal enterprise and it is easy to track down gun runners because all you need is someone to talk about where they bought an illegal gun from. You can't shut down a legal store for doing things that are legal. Also you need to know some pretty sketchy people to know where to buy black market guns. Then you better hope they don't kill you when you go to make a transaction OR it isn't just a police setup. Gun runners don't sell to nobodys. They sell to people who are actively criminal in criminal industries like drugs. Most people shit their pants when they go buy cocaine from people they don't know and you expect a 19 year old crazy kid to go down to a gun den and buy an AR-15 and ammo from some scary dude and his dangerous looking friends? You know what else will happen if you run guns more restrictively? The industry doesn't open up, it shrinks to way less players who have higher financial vested interest.

Yes, the population doesn't know much about guns. Your expansive knowledge is semantics in the face of what people want or do not want available. You might hear "Assault Rifle" and say an AR-15 isn't an Assault Rifle. You might hear "Military Grade" and say well an AR-15 isn't military grade. It isn't an automatic, it is semi auto and the military doesn't go auto anymore they go three shot burst, and blah blah blah blah. Congratulations you win the gun nerd competition. It's like someone saying a Ferrari F355 isn't a race car, its a sports car but you can use them to race. It is pretty obvious what people mean. They don't want any weapon that can be easily wielded with a 30 round magazine where every time you pull the trigger someone can die.

And no, a "criminal", and this is where I pull my semantics, doesn't shoot up schools or offices or train stations for no profit. Criminals do things to better their lives not easily ruin them. There is no profit in straight up murdering kids. That's why we don't see known thief's or drug runners doing this shit we see unstable assholes who have easy access to guns.

 

[SatansReverence]

Wat

So you're anti-democratic? Ok. Wow

Hello Cathy Newman, good to see you're debate tactics haven't changed.

 

[bucyou]

And no, a "criminal", and this is where I pull my semantics, doesn't shoot up schools or offices or train stations for no profit. Criminals do things to better their lives not easily ruin them. There is no profit in straight up murdering kids. That's why we don't see known thief's or drug runners doing this shit we see unstable assholes who have easy access to guns.

You contradicted yourself. Criminals definitely do things to better their lives and profit. Which is exactly why a "criminal" can make a lucrative business selling illegal guns, no questions asked. Kinda like Operation Fast&Furious, except the "criminal" would play the role of the government.

 

[Durask]

The school near me - 30 years ago they had a gun club and during recess kids will take shotguns and go to the field and shoot targets. In fact many schools had gun clubs and gun ranges and no one thought it was a big deal. Why is it that today we need more laws?

 

[SatansReverence]

The school near me - 30 years ago they had a gun club and during recess kids will take shotguns and go to the field and shoot targets. In fact many schools had gun clubs and gun ranges and no one thought it was a big deal. Why is it that today we need more laws?

That's a case of nanny states but they deserve a whole different level of ridicule.

 

[appaws]

I honestly find everything you just wrote ridiculous. No offense intended. I'm incapable of understanding what life someone has lived that lead him to this mindset.

I'm not trying to make fun of you when I ask: Could you tell me more about your life? Where in the USA do you live, what's your education and career like, and what are important moments in your life's history. If this was OldGAF or resetera, they'd ban you. I want to understand you. That's the beginning of any potential improvement. so please.

This is so weirdly patronizing and borderline insulting. "Oh you poor baby, we have to examine your background and see where you went wrong." You seem like a nice guy, so I assume you don't mean anything by it....

What happened in your life that makes you look to leviathan to protect and nurture you? How exactly did you become a statist? What happened to you that you don't trust your fellow citizens with liberty?

I participated in many gun control debates on old GAF and I was never banned for it. I am always polite to everyone, and never call names or troll.

You are a Euro I take it...? Dude, I am completely normal as Americans go. I am certainly a rightist, but by no means far out of the mainstream. If I put together a group of 20 random people from where I live, most would agree with me. Why do you think so many millions voted for Trump? Why do you think the NRA is so influential if not for the millions of members and donors? Civilian firearm ownership is completely normal and mainstream here, only the domination of the coastal elite media gives outsiders looking in (like you) the impression that most Americans want gun control.

I'm a married 43 year old attorney. I'm a practicing Catholic. I was ABD in American History and passed my PhD exams before detouring from it to go to law school. My wife is a doctor. I guess that makes us educated and upper middle-class. Sorry to disappoint you, I'm not some rube. I grew up in Chicago, where I was a punk in my youth. I like JRPGs and long walks on the beach.

I'm not sure what you are looking for...? I don't trust the state. That is a perfectly rational position.

 

[Platinumstorm]

I made this post on facebook and I will just drop it here. It's in regards to this article. https://brenebrown.com/blog/2017/11...ullshit-practicing-civility-affecting-change/

This is my post, and I'm replying to someone on facebook:

I read the entire article. It goes off in a few different tangents:

Let's start with memes.
A few weeks ago here, I posted about the downfall of inaccurate memes. You, and one of your buds, didn't exactly share my negative opinion of what memes have become; I miss philosiraptor.

The argument made in the "bullshit" section of the amount of effort it takes to counteract false statements is very real. I actually will do the research to counter these false memes to both friends and family. Sometimes I slog through laws to find the actual information, and it can take 30 minutes to disprove a 4 liner. In the time I do the multiple people will read and reshare the memes. Maybe one or two people will read the research, but being involved in the process of reading through citations of lines within a law is quite droll.

To respond to one of your quotes, no one is going after handguns because that would likely be the most extreme form of hitting on the second amendment, and it's easily identifiable as a "no-go" zone.

As one of your liberal friends I have a pretty fond memory of being tied for the best shot in my hunter safety course. I've done my share of hunting, although I certainly don't count it among my favorite of things to do.

I've hunted several times with Tom Brokaw, and I know that Dan Rather also has done some form of hunting [at least the sitting in chairs, weird style of "hunting"], although they would be lambasted by many for being anti-gun without knowing their background.

Here's a recent, and quite succinct, article Tom wrote:
https://www.nbcnews.com/.../i-m-pro-gun-hunter-las-vegas...

We don't even get to that part of a discussion from a governmental standpoint. We're told first that "it's too early to talk about this, and that we have to grieve and mourn," shortly thereafter, whether days or weeks, others are thought and we retread that same maligned thought. "it's too early, you're being insensitive, we have to grieve and mourn". One of the things I'm proud of the Floridian kids and parents for doing is being active in the role of saying "hey, we need to do something about this,". If they're ready, then we're all ready to talk about this. They have blocked that political punt.

I made a recent discussion elsewhere that echoed words that Tom wrote in his above-linked article; we both refer to it as a public health threat, or as he put it "[a] threat to general welfare". I argued to do something, and I don't care what. Ok, so right now our government body has a predisposition to blaming this all on mental health. So run with it. Do something.

Let's station an armed security guard or veteran outside every single classroom in the entire nation. We can pay for it with the TSA budget.

Do something.

Let's arm every single teacher and college professor, as some politicians suggest, with a state-purchased firearm and see what the results are. [I really don't suggest this]

Do something.

Send every single gun purchaser in the United States to healthcare professionals for mental health clearance, then a repeat clearance every 3 years.

Do something.

Some combination of this will certainly have some impact, although with the zillion guns in the US it will not prevent it all from occurring.

Do something.

None of these prevent the purchase of guns, nor impede on the second amendment. Don't like these, then just propose something you do and I will support it; just actually follow through. Don't do something like this. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43088644

The president said to report people of suspicion. Good thing that was already tried in this latest shooting! It didn't work. So let's try something else. Do something. It's a full blown failure of our government and our country that we haven't.

Tonight in Costco I was listening to a woman who was talking rather passionately to her husband about second amendment rights. I went into the freezer to get some almond milk. I decided I would hide behind the pallet of almond milk if there was an active shooter in Costco.

Just do something.

 

[WaterAstro]

Do it like Canada, which California actually has the same gun laws as Canada. Everything solved. Gun-fanatic rednecks can just move out of the country.

 

[Rudelord]

I’m pretty sure most guns are locked up in safes and homes, not just “around” out in the open. So it’s not weird to me that people are uncomfortable with what you suggested.

Just because someone owns a gun doesn’t mean he’s comfortable with widespread open carry or stationing armed guards around places like schools.

We had multiple school resource officers at my high school campus. Everyone knew them, knew their names, and were comfortable being around them. They all had a glock strapped to their hip and I can pretty much promise you no one at my campus felt uncomfortable about that.
Maybe it's different elsewhere, but I always found it odd that people could be against at least a few security guards patrolling the campus.

 

[WaterAstro]

This is so weirdly patronizing and borderline insulting. "Oh you poor baby, we have to examine your background and see where you went wrong." You seem like a nice guy, so I assume you don't mean anything by it....

What happened in your life that makes you look to leviathan to protect and nurture you? How exactly did you become a statist? What happened to you that you don't trust your fellow citizens with liberty? When did you stop beating your wife?

I participated in many gun control debates on old GAF and I was never banned for it. I am always polite to everyone, and never call names or troll.

You are a Euro I take it...? Dude, I am completely normal as Americans go. I am certainly a rightist, but by no means far out of the mainstream. If I put together a group of 20 random people from where I live, most would agree with me. Why do you think so many millions voted for Trump? Why do you think the NRA is so influential if not for the millions of members and donors? Civilian firearm ownership is completely normal and mainstream here, only the domination of the coastal elite media gives outsiders looking in (like you) the impression that most Americans want gun control.

I'm a married 43 year old attorney. I'm a practicing Catholic. I was ABD in American History and passed my PhD exams before detouring from it to go to law school. My wife is a doctor. I guess that makes us educated and upper middle-class. Sorry to disappoint you, I'm not some rube. I grew up in Chicago, where I was a punk in my youth. I like JRPGs and long walks on the beach.

I'm not sure what you are looking for...? I don't trust the state. That is a perfectly rational position.

If you support buying guns from Walmart, then you're not a Catholic. You can hold up that Catholic membership all you want, but it's not going to let you off when you support violent methods for maintaining peace.

 

[SatansReverence]

We had multiple school resource officers at my high school campus. Everyone knew them, knew their names, and were comfortable being around them. They all had a glock strapped to their hip and I can pretty much promise you no one at my campus felt uncomfortable about that.
Maybe it's different elsewhere, but I always found it odd that people could be against at least a few security guards patrolling the campus.

This thread isn't really for school shootings but are there any numbers for school mass shootings for schools that do have armed guards? I do make the exception for mass shootings because there are plenty of "school shootings" that are classified as such because there was gun violence in car parks and such well after hours etc and that really isn't related to that particular discussion.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

This thread isn't really for school shootings but are there any numbers for school mass shootings for schools that do have armed guards?

Oh you mean like the mass shooting yesterday where 17 children were killed at the school with the armed guard?

 

[KevinKeene]

This is so weirdly patronizing and borderline insulting. "Oh you poor baby, we have to examine your background and see where you went wrong." You seem like a nice guy, so I assume you don't mean anything by it....

What happened in your life that makes you look to leviathan to protect and nurture you? How exactly did you become a statist? What happened to you that you don't trust your fellow citizens with liberty? When did you stop beating your wife?

I participated in many gun control debates on old GAF and I was never banned for it. I am always polite to everyone, and never call names or troll.

You are a Euro I take it...? Dude, I am completely normal as Americans go. I am certainly a rightist, but by no means far out of the mainstream. If I put together a group of 20 random people from where I live, most would agree with me. Why do you think so many millions voted for Trump? Why do you think the NRA is so influential if not for the millions of members and donors? Civilian firearm ownership is completely normal and mainstream here, only the domination of the coastal elite media gives outsiders looking in (like you) the impression that most Americans want gun control.

I'm a married 43 year old attorney. I'm a practicing Catholic. I was ABD in American History and passed my PhD exams before detouring from it to go to law school. My wife is a doctor. I guess that makes us educated and upper middle-class. Sorry to disappoint you, I'm not some rube. I grew up in Chicago, where I was a punk in my youth. I like JRPGs and long walks on the beach.

I'm not sure what you are looking for...? I don't trust the state. That is a perfectly rational position.

First of all, I didn't mean to offend you in any way. I'm not a resetera-type person who wants to kill all 'deplorables'. I disagree with people like you, but I think change can only come from understanding each other. So I live by my word, asking you how you got to where you are. No 'gotya!' intended.

That said, I still don't understand how you can claim it's 'perfectly rational' to think of the government as your enemy. Culd you elaborate on that? What did the government do to you? And please don't cite historical happenings - I'm from Germany, but citing the Nazis as a reason to distrust today's German government would be crazy.

Btw. I'm catholic, too, so we have that in common at least

 

[zelo-ca]

Do it like Canada, which California actually has the same gun laws as Canada. Everything solved. Gun-fanatic rednecks can just move out of the country.

How about you go to those rednecks and try and take away their guns.... Good luck getting out of there alive buddy.

 

[Super Mario]

I learned a good tactic from discussion here. Here's a chart that shows gun violence is going down while gun ownership is going up. Therefore, the problem is going away!

 

[Alx]

I learned a good tactic from discussion here. Here's a chart that shows gun violence is going down while gun ownership is going up. Therefore, the problem is going away!

It's an interesting chart. Does the murder rate curve cover all territories, or only those which allow concealed handguns ? If there is a correlation to be found, one should separate the different contexts, and see if concealed guns indeed have a potential correlation with murder drop (if the murders only drop in areas with concealed gun permits, then it's a proof that there is such a correlation ; if they drop identically everywhere, then it proves the opposite).

 

[Achelexus]

I don't think anyone is against gun control as a whole, everyone has their own idea of how much of it is needed. Anyway, I used to be very pro-gun control, I changed my mind when someone pointed me out how important an armed civil population is to prevent government tyranny.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

I learned a good tactic from discussion here. Here's a chart that shows gun violence is going down while gun ownership is going up. Therefore, the problem is going away!

Maybe also post the source/study that produced the data? Otherwise it's just a picture.

 

[Pomerlaw]

I'm a Second Amendment absolutist. I have been my entire life, and have been very upfront about it, even when being slaughtered by the crowd on oldGAF. I am an NRA life member and donor above the required dues, along with my wife.

We are the freest country on earth because we retain the idea that deadly force should not be a monopoly in the hands of the state. I, and a huge swath of my countrymen, am not willing to give that up. Registration schemes are just a prelude to confiscation, and frankly let me tell you that confiscation=civil war.

You are not even close from being the freest country on Earth. I suggest you do some research about other countries before you eat up the patriotic message they want you to believe. You also have to ask yourself if dying by firearm is a sign of freedom. Because the number of people getting killed in your country by guns is disastrous. I wonder how free those surviving kids are feeling right now. Yeah sure they can buy guns, but are they feeling secure?

Plus, you are wrong. Lots of people hunt with AR pattern rifles. It's very common.

It is not necessary at all. There are other options. Everything that makes our society somewhat liveable is because we regulate extremes - when something become a matter of life and death, when your liberty is affecting the liberty of somebody else.

I don't think anyone is against gun control as a whole, everyone has their own idea of how much of it is needed. Anyway, I used to be very pro-gun control, I changed my mind when someone pointed me out how important an armed civil population is to prevent government tyranny.

yeah keep those guns working you will need them when marines, tanks and stealth planes come for you. Don't even get me started on those nuclear subs.

 

[zelo-ca]

You are not even close from being the freest country on Earth. I suggest you do some research about other countries before you eat up the patriotic message they want you to believe. You also have to ask yourself if dying by firearm is a sign of freedom. Because the number of people getting killed in your country by guns is disastrous. I wonder how free those surviving kids are feeling right now. Yeah sure they can buy guns, but are they feeling secure?



It is not necessary at all. There are other options. Everything that makes our society somewhat liveable is because we regulate extremes - when something become a matter of life and death, when your liberty is affecting the liberty of somebody else.



yeah keep those guns working you will need them when marines, tanks and stealth planes come for you. Don't even get me started on those nuclear subs.

The first amendment automatically makes the USA the freest country on the earth. Everyone says my country of Canada is more free than the USA. Right now if I use a pronoun that a transgender does not like I can be put in jail. I am not free in this country.

The USA is the best country to have ever existed in the history of mankind. With Capitalism we have lifted almost the entire world out of absolute poverty and the USA is what spread the good word of Capitalism.

The number of people living in extreme poverty worldwide declined by 80 percent from 1970 to 2006. People living on a dollar a day or less dramatically fell from 26.8 percent of the global population in 1970 to 5.4 percent in 2006 – an 80 percent decline. It is a truly remarkable achievement that doesn't receive a lot of media coverage because it highlights the success of capitalism.

"It was globalization, free trade, the boom in international entrepreneurship," American Enterprise Institute (AEI) president Arthur Brooks said in a 2012 speech. "In short, it was the free enterprise system, American style, which is our gift to the world."

 

[Fnord]

Indeed, I cannot imagine the police terrorizing my home. Even if it happened, I wouldn't have to be scared because our police doesn't abuse violence.

So... the police in Germany aren't human? Nope, I checked. They are, indeed, people just like the police in the US and everywhere else (for now).

https://www.aaihs.org/police-brutality-and-racism-in-germany/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...garette-brutality-punching-head-a7671051.html

There are certainly far fewer incidents like this in Germany than in the US, but the notion that people aren't people and subject to the same flaws is silly.

 

[KevinKeene]

So... the police in Germany aren't human? Nope, I checked. They are, indeed, people just like the police in the US and everywhere else (for now).

https://www.aaihs.org/police-brutality-and-racism-in-germany/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...garette-brutality-punching-head-a7671051.html

There are certainly far fewer incidents like this in Germany than in the US, but the notion that people aren't people and subject to the same flaws is silly.

Nobody in Germany lives with fear of police brutality in mind. That's the important take-away.

 

[RPGCrazied]

I don't understand why a civilian needs something like an AR-15, excuse me but, you don't need that for sport or hunting nor to protect your home. If anything that gun needs banned along with large capacity magazines.

 

[SatansReverence]

Oh you mean like the mass shooting yesterday where 17 children were killed at the school with the armed guard?

10/10 angry post.

Since you decided to only link 1 article I'm going to assume its the only time that armed guards haven't prevented shootings so they must work then.

 

[Moneal]

I don't understand why a civilian needs something like an AR-15, excuse me but, you don't need that for sport or hunting nor to protect your home. If anything that gun needs banned along with large capacity magazines.

An AR15 has very low recoil. It make hunting a lot more comfortable, and is actually a good hunting rifle for young hunters.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

10/10 angry post.

Of course I'm angry. You aren't? 17 innocent kids were just murdered. Again.

Since you decided to only link 1 article I'm going to assume its the only time that armed guards haven't prevented shootings so they must work then.

Setting aside for a moment how illogical "there's only been 1 mass shooting where armed guards were around, therefore armed guards reduce school shooting" is, I already mentioned the two mass shootings at Fort Hood within the past 10 years.

Both Columbine and Virginia Tech had armed guards on location as well. So did Pulse nightclub in Orlando.

It's going to be pretty tough to prove whether or not armed security at schools would be effective at stopping shootings. There's no way to tell how many would-be shooters changed their mind due to the security. You could measure how many attempts were actually caught and stopped before going on a rampage at schools with guards vs. without them, but I imagine the sample size is too small to draw any meaningful conclusions.

You'd need a large study with many schools with guards and many schools without guards participating. They'd need to be spread roughly equally throughout the country. And then you'd need to wait a while to collect data. Somehow I don't see this happening.

 

[rokkerkory]

An AR15 has very low recoil. It make hunting a lot more comfortable, and is actually a good hunting rifle for young hunters.

I am sure Nikolas Cruz was very comfortable when shooting up the school.

 

[bucyou]

Of course I'm angry. You aren't? 17 innocent kids were just murdered. Again.



Setting aside for a moment how illogical "there's only been 1 mass shooting where armed guards were around, therefore armed guards reduce school shooting" is, I already mentioned the two mass shootings at Fort Hood within the past 10 years.

Both Columbine and Virginia Tech had armed guards on location as well. So did Pulse nightclub in Orlando.

It's going to be pretty tough to prove whether or not armed security at schools would be effective at stopping shootings. There's no way to tell how many would-be shooters changed their mind due to the security. You could measure how many attempts were actually caught and stopped before going on a rampage at schools with guards vs. without them, but I imagine the sample size is too small to draw any meaningful conclusions.

You'd need a large study with many schools with guards and many schools without guards participating. They'd need to be spread roughly equally throughout the country. And then you'd need to wait a while to collect data. Somehow I don't see this happening.

The only correlation of the mass shooting locations you referenced are they are all "gun free zones"

 

[Deleted member 12837]

The only correlation of the mass shooting locations you referenced are they are all "gun free zones"

I’m sure there are numerous correlations, and yes that is one.

 

[Vicetrailia]

 

[David___]

Just like the Puerto Ricans who saw what this admin to them in a time of need, these kids will remember as well when they're friends were gunned down and nothing was done of it. They'll be old enough to vote in 2020 and I doubt they'll forget what happened in that time.

 

[JordanN]

I use to be on the whole "ban guns! it will solve everything!" bandwagon but doing more reading and insight, I've reached my own conclusion that blaming guns is not a solution.

It's true that criminals will always find a way to get guns. Banning guns leaves legitimate civilians defenseless against them. Or if they really wanted to, they'll move onto the next deadly thing. Home made bombs for example.

The people who shoot up schools have a mental issue. Since the Columbine shootings, we know these individuals were very disturbed from the beginning and were biding their time to lash out. It's better for teachers and parents to start reaching out to them instead of ignoring them.

 

[Atrus]

I'd imagine that part of the problem is the culture given that Canada has a lot of guns and fewer problems. Second to that would be the regulatory differences.

There should be a duty to retreat before any Castle Doctrine laws take effect.
There should be strict rules and severe punishments for the storage and transportation of guns.
There should be strict licensing and gun registration regarding firearms.
There should be restrictions as to the types of firearms, accesories and modifications available for public use.
All ammunition produced and imported needs to be tracked and selfmade ammunition and components should be banned.

 

[KevinKeene]

It's true that criminals will always find a way to get guns.

That's not true at all for Germany.

Also, I strongly disagree with calling all those shooters mentally ill. Sure, philosophically speaking, anyone killing another human being is mentally ill ... although 'distressed' would be more fitting.
However, reasonably speaking, most shooters have very real reasons for their acts. Reasons that most wouldn't kill others for, but varying sensibilities shouldn't be attributed as 'mentally ill'. That'd be insulting of real mentally ill people and, worse, it'd be ignoring real reasons, leaving us actionless towards improving the status quo. That's especially important when it comes to bullying, be it in school or in society in general.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

A.) Regardless of anything else I find it silly that one can buy an assault rifle before they can buy a beer.

B.) I have a scenario:

There’s a room filled with 20 people. These people are crazy. In the middle of the room there is a table covered with machetes. The crazy people keep using the machetes to kill each other.

It’s not the machetes’ fault that the people are crazy, so I guess we shouldn’t remove them right? Machetes don’t kill people, people kill people, right?

OR, just maybe, we acknowledge that while the underlying problem with this room is mental health of the people inside it, assessing that problem is a long, multi-layered road, and in the meantime perhaps letting these people use tools of murder is unwise.

The 2nd Amendment was written by people who could have never dreamed what a cell phone is. The world changes and we are governed by an ancient piece of paper.

 

[BlindMan94]

I'm Australian, and its so frustrating and saddening seeing these massacres happen again and again with no real action taken. We had a major massacre in the 1990s (Port Arthur), our Prime Minister took action to change gun laws in the country, and there hasn't been anything close to it again in the 22 years since. "Thoughts and prayers" and excuses aren't enough to really help, though I know it is extremely hard to change the laws in the US with the current government and the gun lobby being the way it is.

That said, it does my heart good to see how articulate and forceful the survivors are in making their points. Maybe they won't force change, but if they can even push the discourse closer to it, it will be something.

 

[celsowmbr]

We have gun control in Brazil and it works a lot!


http://metrocosm.com/homicides-brazil-vs-world/

 

[zelo-ca]

I know this doesn't belong here but I cannot make threads yet lol. Would anyone on the left like to debate me on discord? I would love to have a discussion with anyone . PM me if you would like to talk.

 

[zelo-ca]

Also anyone who is mad about wanting changes to gun control I would like to point out that for 4 months in 2009-2010 Obama had 60 votes (2 were independents who leaned heavily in the dems favor, one of them was Bernie Sanders) in the senate and the majority in the house. That means he could have passed anything he wanted because the republicans did not have the votes to stop it. Where were you all back then? HE DID NOT CHANGE IT SO WHY DO YOU WANT IT CHANGED NOW!?

The swearing in of Kirk finally gave Democrats 60 votes (at least potentially) in the Senate. “Total control” of Congress by Democrats lasted all of 4 months.From September 24, 2009 through February 4, 2010.

Also that is the only reason Obamacare got passed so it's not like he didn't use his 60 seat majority at all. Why did he not change the gun laws when he had total control? Think about it......

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Also anyone who is mad about wanting changes to gun control I would like to point out that for 4 months in 2009-2010 Obama had 60 votes (2 were independents who leaned heavily in the dems favor, one of them was Bernie Sanders) in the senate and the majority in the house. That means he could have passed anything he wanted because the republicans did not have the votes to stop it. Where were you all back then? HE DID NOT CHANGE IT SO WHY DO YOU WANT IT CHANGED NOW!?

The swearing in of Kirk finally gave Democrats 60 votes (at least potentially) in the Senate. “Total control” of Congress by Democrats lasted all of 4 months.From September 24, 2009 through February 4, 2010.

Also that is the only reason Obamacare got passed so it's not like he didn't use his 60 seat majority at all. Why did he not change the gun laws when he had total control? Think about it......

It’s unfortunate that nothing was done then. Idon’t follow politics closely enough to offer speculation about why that’s the case. My best guess would be he was focused on the Recession and Obamacare. You can’t fix everything simultaneously.

It also doesn’t really have anything to do with what we can and should do now.

We can sit here all day pointing fingers and talking about what we should’ve done in the past, or we could do something about it right now.