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[Zombie James]

So I'm playing Horizon last night and I get to the point where

Spoiler

you're captured and thrown into a colosseum against a machine. You have no weapons. The machine is one of the bigger bull-type of machines whose main attack is charging at you. There are four prominent pillars inside the arena.

The solution is so simple I'd be embarrassed to have to type it out. Not so for Guerrilla, though. After just a few seconds not only does Aloy verbally tell you the solution, you also get those big yellow quest markers showing you where the pillars are that are right in your immediate area to begin with. After that, she keeps telling you what to do just in case your goldfish memory buffer ran out. Here's a video of the sequence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCryBcoTkR0&t=2m5s

This was one of the low points of the game for me. I understand the need to have this kind of excessive hand-handing for the DSPs of the world, but for the love of god make it optional. I've been playing the game for 25+ hours on Hard difficulty, I don't need this kind of "help". This isn't even the only area where the game has to tell you to do something obvious and/or something you've already been doing dozens of times, like tracking someone. Yes, I know I need to press R1 to highlight someone's tracks. I don't need to be told each and every fucking time. Fuck.

Please, keep this shit to Easy difficulties or below. I have a working brain, thanks.

 

[Fbh]

Every modern Zelda game I've playing basically starts with a section I'd describe as "we will assume this is your first time playing any type of videogame ever".

Thankfully I hear that Breath of the Wild finally stopped asuming it's the first videogame for everyone

 

[mankoto]

As much as I hated Fi for practically giving me the answers to every puzzle in some dungeons, Skyward Sword is still my favorite Zelda.

 

[krizalidzero]

I can't bear to play Skyward Sword for long runs because of the hand-holding crap. I also hate how games constantly feel the need to remind you of which button to press and when and for what action.

 

[Zackat]

There are people that are bad at video games. Like really bad. This wasn't implemented for you or me, the video game enthusiast. This was for people new to the medium who thought robot dinosaurs or Aloy were cool and wanted to play.

This kind of thing should be turned off on hard mode, etc.

 

[slick7rick]

I can't stand it. Especially when entering a room for the first time, and without even having a chance to look around for clues or hints as to how to solve the problem - the main character is talking out loud to themselves, "Maybe I should do this.." "That ladder looks helpful"... etc.

Uncharted and Tomb Raider are examples of this that came to mind.

 

[MegaSackman]

Well I didn't know so... glad they told me. They did it fast tho so I guess I would have figured it out with some time but again, didn't have problems with that particular moment.

I'm convinced the whole mission is one of the highlights for everyone tho.

 

[Primethius]

There are people that are bad at video games. Like really bad. This wasn't implemented for you or me, the video game enthusiast. This was for people new to the medium who thought robot dinosaurs or Aloy were cool and wanted to play.

This kind of thing should be turned off on hard mode, etc.

You can disable most of the HUD anyways. I didn't have any indicators on screen during this section.

Otherwise, I don't agree with the OP. So long as sufficient options exist to disable certain things, I'm not sure why some games shouldn't be geared towards a variety of players.

 

[geomon]

Turn the sound and notifications off. Problem solved.

 

[SpiceMelange]

Mario and Luigi Dream Team turned me off that series for that exact reason. The game was essentially a never ending tutorial. I kept waiting for the actual game to starts off and then it was over. One of the worst games I've ever played. Thank god that the new Zelda respects your intelligence.

 

[Acerac]

Every modern Zelda game I've playing basically starts with a section I'd describe as "we will asume this is your first time playing any type of videogame ever".

Thankfully I hear that Breath of the Wild finally stopped asuming it's the first videogame for everyone

It singlehandedly killed the series for me. I'm shocked that the pushback against such behaviors hasn't been bigger, there are few things I find more frustrating when playing games.

 

[MoonFrog]

Yeah. It can get insulting, aggravating, annoying and just cheapen the experience.

As far as Zelda goes, tbh, I've rarely had an issue with it. The only times Fi, for example, got on my case and assumed I knew nothing was when I kept doing the silent realm in an obstinate way and getting caught, instead of doing something more cautious.

Never had her spoil a dungeon for me, for example.

 

[Fbh]

There are people that are bad at video games. Like really bad. This wasn't implemented for you or me, the video game enthusiast. This was for people new to the medium who thought robot dinosaurs or Aloy were cool and wanted to play.

.

There is nothing wrong with them being in a game but it's annoying when they are forced on you.

A very simple solution would be to add a "show hint" button if the player still hasn't solved it after X number of minutes. But instead the game just decided to hand out the solution to everyone.
It's the same with my inital post about Zelda. Nothing wrong with there being a very basic tutorial section when you start, but would it kill them to have some "is this your first time playing Zelda?" option to skip it?

It was one of the worst parts of God of War ascension. That one had some decent puzzles in it but they ruined all of them by making them too obvious. Even if you tuned "hints" off, each time you entered a puzzle room the camera would go and fly around focusing on every relevant element and basically hinting at what you need to do.
Then (again, with hints off) when you apporach an area a reminder would pop up with stuff like "press R2 to use this power", basically giving away what you needed to use

 

[AtlAntA]

In some games i can apreciate hand holding if its just at the start to get you going.

 

[Uzukii]

Stuff like that in Horizon isn't nearly as annoying as tutorials that pause and interrupt gameplay to tell you things. It happens in every other Japanese game I play, which are mainly JRPGs. You're in combat, charging at the enemy, ready to kick some ass but then STOP! "Press _ button to attack, etc." It treats the player like an idiot who's never played a video game before.

 

[Kusagari]

Every modern Zelda game I've playing basically starts with a section I'd describe as "we will asume this is your first time playing any type of videogame ever".

Thankfully I hear that Breath of the Wild finally stopped asuming it's the first videogame for everyone

Breath of the Wild is basically the exact opposite of the trope.

 

[JaseC]

Fable 3 has some almost insultingly awful design decisions:

- You can accept side-quests early on but can't switch between them until the game later informs you of how to do so
- Character levelling is artificially segmented based on how far you've progressed through the main mission line
- A very generous regenerative health system that entirely precludes the need for health potions

 

[Zackat]

It singlehandedly killed the series for me. I'm shocked that the pushback against such behaviors hasn't been bigger, there are few things I find more frustrating when playing games.

Hand someone a controller that has never used it before. To me using dual analog sticks and all the buttons is second nature. A lot of people just don't get it. These sections are short and you forget about them almost immediately afterwards.

 

[richiek]

These two Egoraptor videos illustrate the problem of excessively long tutorials in modern games compared to the 8/16 bit generation:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XOC3vixnj_0

I'm so happy Breath of the Wild is bucking this trend.

 

[AppleSeason]

I can't remember which game, but I have had instances of "Stop giving me the solution" after dying 2-3 times on a boss.


Record handholding goes to Enchanted Arms, but that feels more like a parody, given that even the protagonist is self aware of the tutorial excess and everybody thinks he mentally disabled or something.

 

[Selddon]

let's talk about the past 7 years of AAA gaming

 

[jacksepticeye]

Yeah Aloy really annoyed at times with that shit. I like the game a lot but everything was just told at you all the time.

I think this is why I love BotW so much, because it's just wake up and go and sure it gives you answers to certain things in the load screens but most of the game is left up to you to figure out

 

[Icyflamez96]

Ratchet & Clank PS4 was annoying with this.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Every modern Zelda game I've playing basically starts with a section I'd describe as "we will assume this is your first time playing any type of videogame ever".

Thankfully I hear that Breath of the Wild finally stopped asuming it's the first videogame for everyone

Breath of the Wild hardly tells you shit. You have to seek out characters to explain anything, but the basic controls. It's great

 

[Anno]

I hope that this is a wave that will begin to recede following the success of games like Dark Souls and now BotW. So few big games have any friction whatsoever these days and it just completely turns me off.

 

[Neoleo2143]

Yeah Aloy really annoyed at times with that shit. I like the game a lot but everything was just told at you all the time.

I think this is why I love BotW so much, because it's just wake up and go and sure it gives you answers to certain things in the load screens but most of the game is left up to you to figure out

More importantly, it gives you all the cues you need to figure something out through investigation and experimentation which make it all the more satisfying. It doesn't really drop you into a world without any guidance, just that the guidance is implicit and leads the player to make logical connections on their own for the most part. It's extremely impressive that the regular UI isn't really needed for the most part because of how animations, textures and sounds convey everything implicitly.

 

[fr0st]

I kinda like how siege does this.

The situations only teach the very basics but you'll learn more when you actually play against others

 

[Dion Blaster]

Skyward Sword might be the most frustrating game ever for this. They buried what is in my opinion a fantastic game under too many tutorials, text pop-ups, and conversations with Fi. And Twilight Princess wasn't much better.

Thankfully ALBW and BOTW have turned things around.

 

[royox]

Thankfully I hear that Breath of the Wild finally stopped asuming it's the first videogame for everyone

BOTW literally leaves you in the middle of the nothingless, gives you one single indication and never tells you again a single hint.

 

[komorebi]

"AAA" game design 101

 

[TannerDemoz]

I remember spending so long not knowing what to do in Kokiri Forest in OOT.

Same fighting that Bull in Conkers Bad Fur Day.

Completely agree OP. Loving Breath of The Wild's openness when it comes to quests. I miss it. Also love the lack of a cursor in the HUD - these need to go.

 

[Soul of the Beast]

This is my biggest issue with modern games, they just won't shut the fuck up and keeps interfering with my immersion.

For fuck's sake I am not even that old!
I am only 21 and my first The Legend of Zelda is fucking Breath of the Wild, and yet somehow I still feel like I'm slowly disconnecting with modern AAA game design.

This is why I love Dark Souls so much (only the first one, fuck the sequels.), becuase it's not afraid to let you walk off a cliff and die instantly, it's not afraid of you not knowning how to play the game, it's not afraid of you getting lost, it's not afraid of you killing all the NPC characters and ruinned your own experience.
It let's you just be in the world, without telling you exactly how you should experience the game.

Another thing I love is that Souls games have a lot of respect for silence, the game wants you to think, observe and adapt.
Half way through the game you will realize that you are talking to yourself in your head, a lot.
The game often demands you to communicate with yourself, instead of just turning off the brain and slash your way through . The more I play Dark Souls the more I learn about myself, not just that but It actually improves who I am.
I learn not to give up, I learn not to be reckless and stubborn, I learn to change my tactic and improvise, I learn to slow down, I learn to be humble, I learn not to underestimate any opponent even If I have confidence in my skill.
By the time I finish Dark Souls I become a completely different person than who I was. It's an incredible experince. (This is all true by the way, I didn't made this up just to say ''dak sauce is da best!'')

To me, this is what makes gaming a form of art, not just because of the pretty art style or visual design, but because of the interaction between you and your mind. How it makes you reflect on yourself.

 

[gngf123]

This completely killed my interest in Pokémon Sun and Moon. The game never knows when to shut up and is a much less enjoyable because of it.

Every modern Zelda game I've playing basically starts with a section I'd describe as "we will assume this is your first time playing any type of videogame ever".

Thankfully I hear that Breath of the Wild finally stopped asuming it's the first videogame for everyone

Yep, BOTW is the exact opposite and is much better for it.

 

[Suzushiiro]

More importantly, it gives you all the cues you need to figure something out through investigation and experimentation which make it all the more satisfying. It doesn't really drop you into a world without any guidance, just that the guidance is implicit and leads the player to make logical connections on their own for the most part. It's extremely impressive that the regular UI isn't really needed for the most part because of how animations, textures and sounds convey everything implicitly.

Yeah, BotW gets away with no hand-holding because everything works roughly the way you'd expect it to work IRL- there are very few "game-ey" things about the items and mechanics you deal with that would have to be explained to someone who had little to no background in Zelda games, or games in general.

 

[Soph]

Casual games work like this, I don't see why this is so unexpected.

 

[Zukkoyaki]

The first few hours of Pokemon Sun and Moon were absurd. There were moments where you were given control for literally just a few seconds before another cutscene.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Your example is a little off because the challenge in Horizon is less figuring out what to do and more executing on what you are supposed to do. Action games differ from games where you solve puzzles in that way, puzzle games usually challenge you to find the solution, but the execution of the solution is easy (obviously there are exceptions to this, like Portal). I don't think it's necessary for Aloy to tell the player what to do, but that really isn't where the challenge lies in a game like Horizon.

 

[Syysch]

Ni No Kuni's handholding was insulting. It never lets you do anything on your own, you HAVE to go through the dialogue of where Drippy tells you exactly what to do in order to reach the option to do the thing. Try to cast a particular spell through the menus before the dialogue and it doesnt work.

 

[rochellepaws]

I like hand holding sections, they're a warm and comforting way to ease you into the game and avoid overwhelming the player. I especially liked how Kingdom Hearts 2 and Final Fantasy VIII did it, it's a nice feeling after 3 or 4 hours of understanding the basics of the game and the story for everything to really open up.

 

[Neoleo2143]

Your example is a little off because the challenge in Horizon is less figuring out what to do and more executing on what you are supposed to do. Action games differ from games where you solve puzzles in that way, puzzle games usually challenge you to find the solution, but the execution of the solution is easy (obviously there are exceptions to this, like Portal). I don't think it's necessary for Aloy to tell the player what to do, but that really isn't where the challenge lies in a game like Horizon.

But it's not really needed. We already know all of the game mechanics, we don't need to be reminded of them at this stage of the game. This test should have been a wake up call to those not paying attention to what the machines do but it undercuts itself by giving away the answer.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

I absolutely love The Arkham games (well, Asylum and City anyway, and Origins to a lesser extent), but Batman won't shut up with this kind of stuff. "Maybe I should look at (very obvious thing) over there."

The absolute worst is that this happens during what are supposed to be the detective segments of the game.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

Oh look, a boss fight where the giant boss rushes blindly at you; and there are columns around the area. I wonder, how can you beat it?

Yeah, there's hand holding, and there's that. The game is literally telling you what to do without even giving you a time to think for yourself. Part of the fun in many games is solving the puzzles yourself (i.e. you look at the environment and look for the puzzle/solution) or looking for a pattern in the enemies' attacks and finding weak spots.

I remember in RE6, during the Deborah fight, the game even went to length when it suddenly pops up objective message "Objective: shoot the barrel" (and in case you missed the barrel, the game zooms in on the barrel you have to shoot).

 

[vixlar]

I love Mario RPG because when it comes to a part when they teach you a new mechanic, the game ask you if you know about it. And in a funny way.
BOTW is great in that doesn't hold your hand every two steps, but I hated than in the first boss I did fight,

Spoiler

Urbosa was giving hints every 20 seconds.

 

[RandomHopeInc]

Every modern Zelda game I've playing basically starts with a section I'd describe as "we will assume this is your first time playing any type of videogame ever".

Thankfully I hear that Breath of the Wild finally stopped asuming it's the first videogame for everyone

It really does not teach you much, so little that you can go the whole game without knowing even basic mechanics. Which I appreciate

 

[Platypus]

Yeah this kind of stuff is insulting to the player. God forbid a player should be required to think a little in a medium whose main strength is interactivity.

 

[SirPinkyNose]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pItOJfE_GYg
I can't play games otherwise.

 

[Midas]

Regarding BotW. Spoiler marked since you never know...

Spoiler

What game did you all play? I was told that I needed a map, and were shown where to get it, each time I entered a dungeon.

 

[SerTapTap]

I can only assume that fight focus tested REALLY bad in Horizon so they went over-helpful, but yeah a delay would REALLY help. It's especially odd since this is also a game willing to toss a stormbird in your way and just let you figure out (or decide to run) fairly early. It's one of the better games in terms of slow-learning through experience, optional weapon tutorials that let you learn by doing, and the focus/database IMO.

Generally I Think a lot of these, especially the Horizon one, could be improved by having a delay on non-modal tutorials. Copy Kitty does this super well, even in the tutorial section there's not much forced "DO THIS TO CONTINUE" dialog, but if you dawdle for around 30+ seconds with no progress the main character will be like "hmm, I bet I could kick through that dirt!" or whatever. It's great. Copy Kitty should be required reading for a proper tutorial TBH

 

[Van Bur3n]

Turn the sound and notifications off. Problem solved.

Turning off certain settings still doesn't help in a lot of games since they're based around those markers and other hand-holding aspects being there, with the games not being designed to give you the information or means to figure things out on your own. So when you turn those settings off, you're just going to be lost and get no where.

Not making an argument for whatever specific game you're referring to, just speaking in general.


I for one dislike most hand-holding aspects in video games and not only prefer, but enjoy figuring things out on my own. Video games in their most basic form are problem solving, and my brain enjoys it when the game allows me to solve it all on my own.

 

[Kuramu]

The fun of a puzzle is figuring it out, otherwise you are simply doing a chore.