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Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII |OT| Toriyama's Bizarre Adventure

C

CrimsonCrescendo

Banned
djplaeskool said:
Seriously though, Caius is one of those characters for whom I completely understand their actions.
Click to expand...

Something I found interesting about Caius was that he was the other side of Lightning's coin: He's what would have happened if Lightning never snapped out of her rage in XIII. Too bad they never explored this connection between the two characters.
 
N

Nohar

Member
Kagari said:
They're both pretty bad. LR's writing is something you might expect from a typical fanfiction written by someone who never leaves the basement.
Click to expand...

... Good Lord. I was expecting something average, even sub-par, but not something like this.
And Toriyama is a member of the Final Fantasy Comittee... *long sigh*
 
D

djplaeskool

Member
RPGCrazied said:
Can't catch a break!

Now that this game is done, are the people that worked on this going to work on Final Fantasy XV next? Surely not another XIII game. All they said its the end of lightning's story though.
Click to expand...

One would assume that with FFXIV:ARR moving at stride and LR:FFXIII done, it'd be full steam ahead on XV.

Yes.
One would assume...
 
Yoshichan

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
K

Kuja9001

Banned
PshycoNinja said:
I wouldn't say that. Everyone has a flaw. It's human nature. But that's why we have other people to be able to help circumvent these flaws. Unfortunately when a company gives too much power to a few, it damages the checks and balances that creative endeavors need. I just feel Kitase is better suited to being a designer/director and Toriyama is better suited to be regulated to any lesser role than director. He has no directorial ability like Sakaguchi said all those years ago.

I am willing to admit that even Nomura has a flaw in that he gets too wrapped up in his own work and that his perfectionist ways can stall production. It's a good problem to have if kept in check.

Everyone has an outward flaw even if it's not readily apparent.
Click to expand...

Tori- has questionable directing & writing skills.

Nomura- Unable to have characters not be clones of each other.

Nojima- wrote Crsis Crap, Advent Crap & genesis.

Kitase- Directed FFVIII

Tabata- His game is never coming overseas.
 
S

See You Next Wednesday

Banned
UtterlyPerplexed said:
Still, there's nothing really preventing you from adding him on even if it means using an old render (he's wearing the same clothes all the way through anyway). You'd have gone above and beyond the pitiful level of care SE's given to the guy. But yeah, it's a tiny little thing.



Warning: terrible attempt at explaining it incoming.

Turns out a worthless Goddess saved everyone at the end of FFXIII and by doing so, doomed the time-space continuum because she wasn't supposed to interfere in the normal realm. She makes Lightning - who blatantly deus ex machina'ed her way out of her fate in FFXIII - her new vassal *ahem* Warrior Goddess.

Lightning then sends new guy Noel and Serah off on a journey to "resolve" paradoxes in time all thanks to the aforementioned worthless Goddess being such a shit deity. They encounter new baddie Caius who would like nothing more than to completely stop time so everyone's favourite South Park Kenny of the trilogy - Yeul - can stop dying over and over again because seeing the future kills her.

Old Cocoon due to fall and ruin the planet at some point hundreds of years in the future. Hope, who has inexplicably become a genius scientist and head of research finds a way to build a new Cocoon which involves hibernating himself for hundreds of years. Noel and Serah "stop" Caius, but Caius forces Noel to stab his heart. It turns out the aforementioned worthless Goddess decided to plant her HEART inside our baddie because...reasons. As Caius "dies" (hint: he's back for LR), so does the Goddess. Which means this essence called Chaos from that unseen realm she has resided in is unleashed onto the world, corroding it and contorting it into LR's new Nova Chrysalia.

Serah dies because for some reason or another she could also see the future which kills her because...reasons. Lightning in Valhalla while still being the worthless Goddess's slave, realises that Serah would die and kind of acts horrified, choosing to crystallise herself and...I dunno. I stopped paying attention there. I don't know anymore. =(

Oh, forgot to say. Fang and Vanille rescued from pillar just before Old Cocoon falls.

I'm sure a fan of FFXIII-2 can do a better job than I can.
Click to expand...

My head hurts from reading that. ;(
 
S

Shinta

Banned
PshycoNinja said:
Change the Future, change the past is the most ridiculous idea ever.
Click to expand...

It's not, and it's not Toriyama's invention either. It's a real theory of time travel and paradox-resolution.

The idea is for single timeline theory. If there is only one timeline, then there can't really be paradoxes. If the future ends in a different conclusion than the events leading up to it suggest because of the future being altered, then the past would automatically reshuffle itself to correct for the disturbance so that there is consistent causation in the timeline.

An alternate version of this same principle suggests that altering the past is actually impossible, because the past has to lead to the future as it already was laid out. So basically any time you were about to alter it, something would prevent it from happening (try to shoot Hitler and your gun jams, etc.).

It's not how Back to the Future handles it, or most popular fiction, but it is a real time travel theory.

Looping timelines are also a real time travel theory, and they throw in a nod to that when you beat the game. They put the intro cutscenes of Lightning battling Caius at the end of the timeline instead of the beginning, because she was constantly looping and endlessly battling Caius over and over with failed outcomes.

Most of it is over my head, considering I'm not a theoretical physicist, but even browsing wikipedia can be fun for looking at how varied time travel theories are. Most of the single timeline theories seem to suggest that paradoxes are impossible, which is why timelines must auto-correct themselves. Toriyama kind of mixes single timeline theories with the existence of paradoxes, so it's definitely a bit different but still grounded in the same ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_paradox

XIII-2 isn't perfect, and there are some loose ends or some things that don't make perfect scientific sense. But I still think they actually tried to introduce some new and interesting elements into time travel travel game fiction, and generally I think it's one of the better time travel games.
 
L

Liferebooted

Banned
EatChildren said:
ddygjiw.gif
Click to expand...

She's so cute. :D <3
 
A

Astral

Member
Shinta said:
It's not, and it's not Toriyama's invention either. It's a real theory of time travel and paradox-resolution.

The idea is for single timeline theory. If there is only one timeline, then there can't really be paradoxes. If the future ends in a different conclusion than the events leading up to it suggest because of the future being altered, then the past would automatically reshuffle itself to correct for the disturbance so that there is consistent causation in the timeline.

An alternate version of this same principle suggests that altering the past is actually impossible, because the past has to lead to the future as it already was laid out. So basically any time you were about to alter it, something would prevent it from happening (try to shoot Hitler and your gun jams, etc.).

It's not how Back to the Future handles it, or most popular fiction, but it is a real time travel theory.

Looping timelines are also a real time travel theory, and they throw in a nod to that when you beat the game. They put the intro cutscenes of Lightning battling Caius at the end of the timeline instead of the beginning, because she was constantly looping and endlessly battling Caius over and over with failed outcomes.

Most of it is over my head, considering I'm not a theoretical physicist, but even browsing wikipedia can be fun for looking at how varied time travel theories are. Most of the single timeline theories seem to suggest that paradoxes are impossible, which is why timelines must auto-correct themselves. Toriyama kind of mixes single timeline theories with the existence of paradoxes, so it's definitely a bit different but still grounded in the same ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_paradox

XIII-2 isn't perfect, and there are some loose ends or some things that don't make perfect scientific sense. But I still think they actually tried to introduce some new and interesting elements into time travel travel game fiction, and generally I think it's one of the better time travel games.
Click to expand...

This is what I thought the game was going for, which is pretty neat. However, it isn't the reason why the past is altered by changing the future. The game's reason is a lot more stupid.
The Seers can see the future. Every time Noel and Serah do something to change it, the Seers see this change and have to act accordingly to make it happen. Then they die.
 
S

Shinta

Banned
Astral said:
This is what I thought the game was going for, which is pretty neat. However, it isn't the reason why the past is altered by changing the future. The game's reason is a lot more stupid.
The Seers can see the future. Every time Noel and Serah do something to change it, the Seers see this change and have to act accordingly to make it happen. Then they die.
Click to expand...

I think it's just that the
seers can see the future, period. And this takes a huge toll on their lives, leading to their death. There weren't any paradoxes until XIII-2 and the fall of Cocoon. So, all it means is that every time the timeline gets altered, their vision gets updated. The only difference with the seers is that now they get visions in XIII-2 much, much more frequently. So, that's why Serah dies in the span of a month or so, instead of 15-17 years like Yeul. She gets way more visions because the timeline is altered much more frequently than ever before.

That's how I interpreted it anyway. Who knows.
 
Synless

Synless

Member
Best Buy shipped my game and strategy guide, maybe I'll get it early like some other games I've ordered from them.
 
A

Astral

Member
Shinta said:
I think it's just that the
seers can see the future, period. And this takes a huge toll on their lives, leading to their death. There weren't any paradoxes until XIII-2 and the fall of Cocoon. So, all it means is that every time the timeline gets altered, their vision gets updated. The only difference with the seers is that now they get visions in XIII-2 much, much more frequently. So, that's why Serah dies in the span of a month or so, instead of 15-17 years like Yeul. She gets way more visions because the timeline is altered much more frequently than ever before.

That's how I interpreted it anyway. Who knows.
Click to expand...

Hmm. That's a much better interpretation. I don't remember where I read mine but I initially just figured the game was following the single timeline theory. It makes the game more enjoyable if you just assume that's the case.
 
N

Nohar

Member
I have to admit that Shinta's interpretation sounds very convincing. Thank you very much for enlighting me on the time travel theory :)

Now, UtterlyPerplexed in his somewhat hilarious recap raises one good question: why on earth
does Caius have Etro's heart? Why did he need Noel to kill him (seriously, he could have just killed himself isn't it? Why the need to challenge Noel ? Why fighting Lightning at all?) ?

Oh well, I guess some of these questions will have an answer in LR (or at least I hope so)... Though I'm not expecting to be convinced.
 
C

CrimsonCrescendo

Banned
Nohar said:
I have to admit that Shinta's interpretation sounds very convincing. Thank you very much for enlighting me on the time travel theory :)

Now, UtterlyPerplexed in his somewhat hilarious recap raises one good question: why on earth
does Caius have Etro's heart? Why did he need Noel to kill him (seriously, he could have just killed himself isn't it? Why the need to challenge Noel ? Why fighting Lightning at all?) ?

Oh well, I guess some of these questions will have an answer in LR (or at least I hope so)... Though I'm not expecting to be convinced.
Click to expand...

Caius can't kill himself, but he loopholed it in the canon ending because it was technically "by Noel's hand" (his hand was on the sword). Apparently intention doesn't mean anything. Personally, I find this a load of bull, but it's the canon ending explanation.
 
I

ironcreed

Banned
I'm not really crazy about the story and Lightning being chosen by God to be the savior and all that jazz. I just love the combat and deep customization and am looking forward to having more direct control in an open world. But story aside, I do still think Lightning herself is completely badass. Especially with this new battle system.
 
G

Gaz_RB

Member
ironcreed said:
I'm not really crazy about the story and Lightning being chosen by God to be the savior and all that jazz. I just love the combat and deep customization and am looking forward to having more direct control in an open world. But story aside, I do still think Lightning herself is completely badass. Especially with this new battle system.

iul3IX1R5zDnl.gif
Click to expand...

I agree with you. The combat in the 13 series is awesome, and Lightning is quite the badass.

And that gif is great!

CrimsonCrescendo said:
Could we please not do "Deal with it" gifs in this thread? It adds nothing to the discussion and is needlessly antagonistic.
Click to expand...

haha does it really bother you that much? it's just a joke.
 
I

ironcreed

Banned
CrimsonCrescendo said:
Could we please not do "Deal with it" gifs in this thread? It adds nothing to the discussion and is needlessly antagonistic.
Click to expand...

I said nothing inflammatory in my post. I merely added the gif for humor and because I think that scene is pretty awesome. How about stop being so sensitive towards things that meant no offense? I was merely discussing why I am excited for this game. Which is perfectly on topic.
 
T

TheGrue

Member
CrimsonCrescendo said:
Could we please not do "Deal with it" gifs in this thread? It adds nothing to the discussion and is needlessly antagonistic.
Click to expand...

Deal with it? :p

My hype levels for this game are through the roof. My CE is on its way and I can't wait to tear into it. It's funny because even though I have a PS4 and XBO, I have been playing Demons' Souls/Dark Souls/Metal Gear Solid 4 and soon to be this and Dark Souls 2 on my PS3 instead of the many games I have for the new systems.
 
S

Shinta

Banned
ironcreed said:
Shall I remove it then, lol? I said nothing inflammatory and meant no offense with the gif.
Click to expand...

I guess we can officially ban all "please be excited" pics then too with what's his name on stage. Or Toriyama sitting at his desk pics talking about his obsession with hearts on it.
 
C

CrimsonCrescendo

Banned
ironcreed said:
I said nothing inflammatory in my post. I merely added the gif for humor and because I think that scene is pretty awesome. How about stop being so sensitive towards things that meant no offense? I was merely discussing why I am excited for this game. Which is perfectly on topic.
Click to expand...

The part about your hype is fine. I just know what gifs like that lead to.
 
U

UtterlyPerplexed

Member
Fans of FFXIII-2 - I'm sure there are quite a few of you here who would be very familiar with the ins and outs of that game's dreadful story - why exactly did Etro
give Caius her friggin' HEART? I don't care if it grants the guy immortality to protect Yeul or whatever. She basically gave a former Pulse L'Cie if I recall, an artifact that is both the closest physical manifestation of herself we've seen all trilogy, and an artifact that basically keeps the whole damn universe from being eternally fucked. And all it takes to screw everything up is someone else's blade to pierce the heart, kill her and doom the world. The trilogy has elected to pivot itself on the actions of the worst deity I have ever come across in fiction as far as I know of.

Ugh, re-discovering the magnitude of FFXIII-2's terrible logic and storytelling is painful. I cannot fathom with a single available cell left of my able mental capacity to think how Lightning Returns' story can be in any way just as bad or even conceivably worse.
 
G

Ganon Dragmire

Member
UtterlyPerplexed said:
Fans of FFXIII-2 - I'm sure there are quite a few of you here who would be very familiar with the ins and outs of that game's dreadful story - why exactly did Etro
give Caius her friggin' HEART? I don't care if it grants the guy immortality to protect Yeul or whatever. She basically gave a former Pulse L'Cie if I recall, an artifact that is both the closest physical manifestation of herself we've seen all trilogy, and an artifact that basically keeps the whole damn universe from being eternally fucked. And all it takes to screw everything up is someone else's blade to pierce the heart, kill her and doom the world. The trilogy has elected to pivot itself on the actions of the worst deity I have ever come across in fiction as far as I know of.

Ugh, re-discovering the magnitude of FFXIII-2's terrible logic and storytelling is painful. I cannot fathom with a single available cell left of my able mental capacity to think how Lightning Returns' story can be in any way just as bad or even conceivably worse.
Click to expand...

I made a thread for anyone wanting to replay the first two games and disscus their stories before LR launches:http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=756569&highlight=fabula+nova+crystallis

but to answer your question:

There was a tribe called the Farseers that both Yuel and a l’cie named Caius are part of. One day an enemy army invaded them, and to protect Yuel, Caius performed an incarnate summoning. This is to be one with an eidolion. This would cost him is life, but Etro saw this. She was moved, and not only freed him from being a l’cie, but give him her heart, the Heart of Chaos. This made Caius immortal. He would be the guardian of all the reborn Yuels.
 
S

SoraanTribal

Member
UtterlyPerplexed said:
Fans of FFXIII-2 - I'm sure there are quite a few of you here who would be very familiar with the ins and outs of that game's dreadful story - why exactly did Etro
give Caius her friggin' HEART? I don't care if it grants the guy immortality to protect Yeul or whatever. She basically gave a former Pulse L'Cie if I recall, an artifact that is both the closest physical manifestation of herself we've seen all trilogy, and an artifact that basically keeps the whole damn universe from being eternally fucked. And all it takes to screw everything up is someone else's blade to pierce the heart, kill her and doom the world. The trilogy has elected to pivot itself on the actions of the worst deity I have ever come across in fiction as far as I know of.

Ugh, re-discovering the magnitude of FFXIII-2's terrible logic and storytelling is painful. I cannot fathom with a single available cell left of my able mental capacity to think how Lightning Returns' story can be in any way just as bad or even conceivably worse.
Click to expand...

Etro is
a stupid goddess. I'm not even joking, she's really dumb and makes terrible decisions. She gave Caius her heart because she saw how much Caius wanted to protect Yeul (so much that he would sacrifice his own life to protect her) and wanted to "reward" him basically. Who knew giving someone [almost] immortality would go so wrong? >.>
 
C

CrimsonCrescendo

Banned
Some thoughts on Etro:


If they could decide on why Etro made her decisions, I wouldn't like her, but I could tolerate what she does more. But they can't. At some points she's called foolish, at some points she's too emotional,then at some points she has no emotions at all and this is why she does what she does, and then they go back to "She doesn't understand human emotion". She has contradictory motivations and not as a commentary on human nature, which I would have found interesting, since half the time she's described as being so far removed from humanity she doesn't understand them on a fundamental level. And because of this I have no tolerance for the character.
 
I

Isaccard

Member
Kagari said:
I would say so otherwise it'll be quoted a bunch of times with no real discussion.
Click to expand...

Oh come on. The only discussion that'll happen where anything FFXIII/Lightning is involved is the usual crowd of people with drive by posts and one liners to remind everyone how much they want to have hate sex with [insert arbitrary figure at SE or Lightning here]. Which is fine, but when it's the same tired "discussion" over and over in every XIII related thread, at some point the gif starts to become justified.
 
S

SoraanTribal

Member
I wish we actually *saw* Etro in any of the games. It's hard to even feel like Etro is a real character when she's only ever talked about. I don't count her heart either. :p That was one of my complaints about how XIII handled the lore in general. We have these kind of interesting gods/mythology, but we don't see them really. Exceptions being
Pulse in XIII - that one cutscene when the party got branded
and I think in LR, you finally see
Bhuni
. But since Etro plays such a huge role in the events of the XIII series, I would have liked to see her appearance at least.
 
U

UtterlyPerplexed

Member
I'm hard pressed to even call Etro a character
given that we never meet her. If the trilogy has to play out the way it has from FFXIII's blatantly forced idyllic ending to the state of what the world has become by Lightning Returns, Etro's no more than a name attached to a plot void that simply causes things to happen just because they have to for the consequential stuff to play out the way they do.
Good grief. You have a solid mythology foundation and you do this with it...

Even funnier when you realise that in Luxerion in LR there will be a cult dedicated to Etro. Scientology is looking marvelous and attractive in comparison.
 
S

Shinta

Banned
SoraanTribal said:
I wish we actually *saw* Etro in any of the games. It's hard to even feel like Etro is a real character when she's only ever talked about. I don't count her heart either. :p That was one of my complaints about how XIII handled the lore in general. We have these kind of interesting gods/mythology, but we don't see them really. Exceptions being
Pulse in XIII - that one cutscene when the party got branded
and I think in LR, you finally see
Bhuni
. But since Etro plays such a huge role in the events of the XIII series, I would have liked to see her appearance at least.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it would have been neat to see her.
I think there's two instances where we do, but that might be it.

http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/_...y/images/8/8e/Fabula_Nova_Crystallis_logo.png

LR spoiler for the 2nd one.

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/_...III_Lindzei_&_Pulse_at_Etro's_Death_Mural.jpg

LR spoiler
I do kind of like the mystery though, honestly. And it sure adds a ton of impact when you finally get to see Bhunivelze. And you definitely see him.
 
S

SoraanTribal

Member
Shinta said:
snip
Click to expand...

Yeah the logo is there, but it's hard to equate that into someone in a completely different game (I know they are related by mythos, but you know what I mean, lol.) EDIT: Nvm, I thought you were linking to the Versus/XV logo.

As far as the second image, interesting... Does LR actually
talk about the full mythology? Like does it talk more about Etro and Lindzei? That stuff always interested me about the XIII universe, but it was disappointing how little it actually mattered to the stories of both games so far. At least, mattered in sense that the story talked about them.
 
S

Shinta

Banned
SoraanTribal said:
As far as the second image, interesting... Does LR actually
talk about the full mythology? Like does it talk more about Etro and Lindzei? That stuff always interested me about the XIII universe, but it was disappointing how little it actually mattered to the stories of both games so far.
Click to expand...
Yep.
 
S

SoraanTribal

Member
That's actually very good to hear. That part of the storyline in the XIII games always interested me, so I want to see the series finally discuss it, lol.
 
G

Ganon Dragmire

Member
Shinta said:
Yeah, it would have been neat to see her.
I think there's two instances where we do, but that might be it.

http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/_...y/images/8/8e/Fabula_Nova_Crystallis_logo.png

LR spoiler for the 2nd one.

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/_...III_Lindzei_&_Pulse_at_Etro's_Death_Mural.jpg

LR spoiler
I do kind of like the mystery though, honestly. And it sure adds a ton of impact when you finally get to see Bhunivelze. And you definitely see him.
Click to expand...

first one isn't her. Kitase was asked about it and said it wasn't her, but didn't say who it was.
 
T

Toth

Member
I think the (mild Etro spoilers)
incompetent 'goddess' model is actually rather refreshing. Gods in JRPGs are usually portrayed as either good or evil so it is nice to see a someone as flawed as humans are. She's not even a goddess either
.
 
C

CrimsonCrescendo

Banned
Toth said:
I think the (mild Etro spoilers)
incompetent 'goddess' model is actually rather refreshing. Gods in JRPGs are usually portrayed as either good or evil so it is nice to see a someone as flawed as humans are. She's not even a goddess either
.
Click to expand...

If she wasn't incompetent because of the "revolving door of plot convenience", I might agree. But unfortunately, she's whatever the plot needs her to be. They needed a compassionate goddess to stop Fang and Vanille, so she was compassionate. They needed a way to explain why Etro made all the decisions she did, so suddenly she didn't even have emotions. And that's why I can't say she's refreshing: She's a non-character.
 
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