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[Protome]

I mean if you want to charge and play on the TV at the same time without the dock you would need an adapter to give you a USB C port for charging and an HDMI port for TV out. I think this is a clunky solution and would find it easier to just carry a dock. Just my opinion.

I was just confused because the post you quoted had nothing to do with that.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I have my doubts that just simply up-clocking will be able to make the difference between 720p and 1080p. For some games maybe but a linear clock speed increase won't bridge the gap for a technically exponential pixel increase. I'd expect more of a PS4Pro/n3DS type of thing where it gets used in different ways.

Sure, I wouldn't doubt different games will use it in different ways. But I don't think 2.25x the pixels is really what we should consider an exponential gap. How much difference to expect is outside my area of expertise, but if it can run double the speed in the dock that'd about do it.

The screen is 720p. How would rendering at 720p on 720p screen worse than rendering 1080p on a 720p screen?

If it was just a choice between the two with no other downsides, the latter would be better by producing a smoother image.

 

[AzaK]

720p -> 1080p via the dock? That's impressive.

You realise it could be 720/60 -> 1080/30 or 1080/ugly

 

[Donnie]

Well strong rumours already said the dev kit had a fan and so did the final unit, so that's no surprise (though nice to have confirmed). What is a surprise is the dual fans, that's extremely surprising to much and suggests more performance than I was expecting.

can I get full power without the dock? I want to just play it remotely without performance decreases....like a USBC plug into the bottom of the unit itself.

Why would you want to? The performance decrease is because it goes from 1080p on TV to 720p on portable, hence the system requires less performance at the lower resolution.

 

[Donnie]

You realise it could be 720/60 -> 1080/30 or 1080/ugly

Why would you need a clock increase that requires a additional fan if you're just going to half framerate to gain the performance needed to double resolution?, come on that makes absolutely no sense. It would also mean every game would require a minimum of 60fps in portable mode, again not happening.

Its much more likely that games are developed first and foremost for docked mode and when disconnected from the dock the GPU/RAM clocks are halved and game rendered at the same framerate at 720p.

 

[th3sicknness]

I think it will be up to the developer to be honest. What Nintendo decides is the standard for them isnt usually the standard for others. Nintendo could internally say their games must be native 1080 docked / 720 not docked @ 60 and Ubisoft could just do 720 / 1080 upscaled at whatever frame rate.

 

[EDarkness]

Why would you need a clock increase that requires a additional fan if you're just going to half framerate to gain the performance needed to double resolution?, come on that makes absolutely no sense. It would also mean every game would require a minimum of 60fps in portable mode, again not happening.

Its much more likely that games are developed first and foremost for docked mode and when disconnected from the dock the GPU/RAM clocks are halved and game rendered at the same framerate at 720p.

I think all games are developed for the max spec and the system does adjustments when not docked. It would makes sense, too, as it would mean that the main experience is playing on the TV. That's where we'll get the best view of what a game looks like and how it'll be designed initially. I think going to portable mode will be an automatic process that developers don't really mess with. Would make developing games fairly simple since developers won't have to mess around with two different specs.

 

[Enduin]

I hope Zelda is 1080p at least.

I can't see how it isn't if this is true. It's a flagship game. They would be insane to not have it run at 1080 on their new system. Nintendo can pull some bonehead moves, but even that seems like too stupid a decision even for them.

 

[Donnie]

I think all games are developed for the max spec and the system does adjustments when not docked. It would makes sense, too, as it would mean that the main experience is playing on the TV. That's where we'll get the best view of what a game looks like and how it'll be designed initially. I think going to portable mode will be an automatic process that developers don't really mess with. Would make developing games fairly simple since developers won't have to mess around with two different specs.

Yep that's exactly what I think, it is after all a home console first and foremost according to Nintendo.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Well strong rumours already said the dev kit had a fan and so did the final unit, so that's no surprise (though nice to have confirmed). What is a surprise is the dual fans, that's extremely surprising to much and suggests more performance than I was expecting.

Or simply more aggressive cooling.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

It's almost Switchmas.

This made me chuckle.

 

[KingBroly]

I think it will be up to the developer to be honest. What Nintendo decides is the standard for them isnt usually the standard for others. Nintendo could internally say their games must be native 1080 docked / 720 not docked @ 60 and Ubisoft could just do 720 / 1080 upscaled at whatever frame rate.

720p will be the standard because that's the resolution the screen. If you go below that, you messed up, Telltale.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

I can't see how it isn't if this is true. It's a flagship game. They would be insane to not have it run at 1080 on their new system. Nintendo can pull some bonehead moves, but even that seems like too stupid a decision even for them.

NSMBU was in 720p 😐

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

So the device targets 1080p, but drops to 720p when undocked to save power. The reverse doesn't really sound accurate, at least from a technical perspective.

 

[EDarkness]

Yep that's exactly what I think, it is after all a home console first and foremost according to Nintendo.

I'm starting to think so, too. People are looking at the portable aspect mostly, but I think that's what they mean when they say it's a home console first. Games are developed as home console games, then the system does the adjustments when portable. The important experience is playing on the TV.

I imagine Nintendo wants to keep things as simple as possible for developers and having them juggle portable and home console specs just doesn't seem like the way to go. Developers can target one spec and the system will do the rest.

Looking forward to seeing what the games are going to look like on this thing. Also, the idea of being able to have multiple docks around the house is cool as well.

 

[guybrushfreeman]

So the device targets 1080p, but drops to 720p when undocked to save power. The reverse doesn't really sound accurate, at least from a technical perspective.

That's what I think too, seems plausible. CPU clocks are more troublesome though, if the CPU has to downclock in portable mode some games are going to have trouble with frame rate even if the resolution drops

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Looks like Dark Souls 3 is coming to Switch, time to have two threads open then.

https://twitter.com/LaurakBuzz/statu...02353619783680

cool for the few nintendo only owners who skipped it. Awesome game.

This 1080p thing is cool too if true.

 

[Enduin]

NSMBU was in 720p ��

2012 and 2017 are worlds apart and the fact that this rumor is that the Switch has increased performance while docked in order to accommodate 1080p graphics gives Nintendo a much greater reason to make Zelda 1080p.

Plus NSMBU was a multiplayer title so the needs of performance for up to 4 players beats out 1080p, as well Zelda has traditionally been the bigger graphics series than Mario, at least outside of the Galaxy entries.

 

[Kathian]

I'd think it will mostly run games at 720p. Which is still better than 240p...

 

[Donnie]

Or simply more aggressive cooling.

Aggressive cooling isn't added to a device like this for the sake of it.

EDIT: To be clear I was talking about the fan in the unit itself being a big surprise and suggesting more performance. I expected the dock to have a fan, but to also have one in the portable device suggests that performance when in mobile mode is higher than I expected.

That's what I think too, seems plausible. CPU clocks are more troublesome though, if the CPU has to downclock in portable mode some games are going to have trouble with frame rate even if the resolution drops

CPU clocks won't change of course, perhaps a reason why the unit itself has a fan (because the CPU is reasonably powerful and has to stay that way in docked and portable mode).

 

[Instro]

That's what I think too, seems plausible. CPU clocks are more troublesome though, if the CPU has to downclock in portable mode some games are going to have trouble with frame rate even if the resolution drops

I don't think there would need to be any clock changes on the CPU, should be able to run at full speed without any trouble regardless of whether it's docked or not. Mobile CPUs running around 2Ghz without active cooling is common these days.

It's interesting that there is both a fan in the handheld, and in the dock. I wonder how hard they will be pushing the clock speeds on the GPU...maybe beyond 1000Mhz?

 

[EDarkness]

I'd think it will mostly run games at 720p. Which is still better than 240p...

In portable mode, sure. On the TV, I think Nintendo's games will be generally 1080p, but with 3rd parties I think we'll see stuff like 900p much like the Xbox 1.

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

Not a game dev or knowledgable about technical details at all, but is it easier for a game dev or engine programmer to target a max spec, then have it scale back for nondocked 720p, or is it easier to target portable mode and then upres or add effects once docked?

 

[th3sicknness]

The ps4 and the x1 have issues running native 1080 at consistent frames. So I think we should be careful expecting the Switch to run everything docked at 1080 as well even if it is newer technology.

 

[guybrushfreeman]

Aggressive cooling isn't added to a device like this for the sake of it.

EDIT: To be clear I was talking about the fan in the unit itself being a big surprise and suggesting more performance. I expected the dock to have a fan, but to also have one in the portable device suggests that performance when in mobile mode is higher than I expected.



CPU clocks won't change of course, perhaps a reason why the unit itself has a fan (because the CPU is reasonably powerful and has to stay that way in docked and portable mode).

I don't think there would need to be any clock changes on the CPU, should be able to run at full speed without any trouble regardless of whether it's docked or not. Mobile CPUs running around 2Ghz without active cooling is common these days.

It's interesting that there is both a fan in the handheld, and in the dock. I wonder how hard they will be pushing the clock speeds on the GPU...maybe beyond 1000Mhz?

Yeah that's true. I was just thinking they could push the CPU harder still but it makes more sense not to

 

[Enduin]

The ps4 and the x1 have issues running native 1080 at consistent frames. So I think we should be careful expecting the Switch to run everything docked at 1080 as well even if it is newer technology.

There are two possibilities I think here because there is a fundamental difference in the systems. Switch has two difference performance modes going by this rumor which most expected.

Scenario 1: Most, if not all developers, will target the lower of the two. Outside of Nintendo and a few major third party efforts I don't see many devs investing a whole lot of resources in implementing major improvements to their games when the system is docked. That means they will probably used those performance gains from docked mode to make their game run at 1080p, as all they'll really be doing is increasing the resolution and nothing else for their game. They likely won't be implementing more complex lighting, better shadows, textures, draw distance, physics, AA, etc. But like I said, I would imagine many, if not most Nintendo games will be designed to take advantage of the increase performance outside of just 1080p, as will some big budget third party titles, but probably not many of those unless the system is real success.

Scenario 2: Most devs target docked modes specs and then try to cut shit when undocked in order to gain acceptable performance. In this case devs will act like they do on other consoles where they look to push the boundaries of the system in order to make their games look prettier at the cost of performance. Which in this case will likely result in poor running games in both docked and undocked modes. At least for third parties, Nintendo will likely have rock solid to at least acceptable performance for most games.

I honestly think scenario 1 is more likely, and I also hope that is the case.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

2012 and 2017 are worlds apart and the fact that this rumor is that the Switch has increased performance while docked in order to accommodate 1080p graphics gives Nintendo a much greater reason to make Zelda 1080p.

Plus NSMBU was a multiplayer title so the needs of performance for up to 4 players beats out 1080p, as well Zelda has traditionally been the bigger graphics series than Mario, at least outside of the Galaxy entries.

Yeah but smash came and that went to 1080

 

[Elfforkusu]

The biggest issue is not the eGPU itself but the bus width used to connect the inside CPU/GPU with the docked eGPU.

USB 3 is not enough for that... think a bit about SLI/Crossfire and how they are starving for PCI-E lames because they need communicate each other fast as possible.

That will require a proprietary connector between dock and system that could be complex and expensive... the system PCB could be expensive to allow these lames to transfer information.

Sure, but it's not like the Switch needs to be compatible with 3rd party docks. They'd probably prefer the opposite, right?

What I'm envisioning would be a totally new SKU, not just a "new dock" -- which for the reasons you mention, would be a rather iffy proposition.

Obviously, we are years away from a refresh since the system isn't even out yet...

 

[Enduin]

Yeah but smash came and that went to 1080

True, but Smash was also like two years later and a much higher budget game as well. They had even greater experience with the system and the budget to really push it.

If docked mode does provide increased performance and Nintendo fails to make BotW 1080p when docked they should get major major shit for it.

 

[th3sicknness]

There are two possibilities I think here because there is a fundamental difference in the systems. Switch has two difference performance modes going by this rumor which most expected.

Scenario 1: Most, if not all developers, will target the lower of the two. Outside of Nintendo and a few major third party efforts I don't see many devs investing a whole lot of resources in implementing major improvements to their games when the system is docked. That means they will probably used those performance gains from docked mode to make their game run at 1080p, as all they'll really be doing is increasing the resolution and nothing else for their game. They likely won't be implementing more complex lighting, better shadows, textures, draw distance, physics, AA, etc. But like I said, I would imagine many, if not most Nintendo games will be designed to take advantage of the increase performance outside of just 1080p, as will some big budget third party titles, but probably not many of those unless the system is real success.

Scenario 2: Most devs target docked modes specs and then try to cut shit when undocked in order to gain acceptable performance. In this case devs will act like they do on other consoles where they look to push the boundaries of the system in order to make their games look prettier at the cost of performance. Which in this case will likely result in poor running games in both docked and undocked modes. At least for third parties, Nintendo will likely have rock solid to at least acceptable performance for most games.

I honestly think scenario 1 is more likely, and I also hope that is the case.

I think you are right for the most part. I think the interesting kicker here is that developers don't need to target a different control scheme or a second screen anymore. They can make games as they do on other platforms.

 

[EDarkness]

There are two possibilities I think here because there is a fundamental difference in the systems. Switch has two difference performance modes going by this rumor which most expected.

Scenario 1: Most, if not all developers, will target the lower of the two. Outside of Nintendo and a few major third party efforts I don't see many devs investing a whole lot of resources in implementing major improvements to their games when the system is docked. That means they will probably used those performance gains from docked mode to make their game run at 1080p, as all they'll really be doing is increasing the resolution and nothing else for their game. They likely won't be implementing more complex lighting, better shadows, textures, draw distance, physics, AA, etc. But like I said, I would imagine many, if not most Nintendo games will be designed to take advantage of the increase performance outside of just 1080p, as will some big budget third party titles, but probably not many of those unless the system is real success.

Scenario 2: Most devs target docked modes specs and then try to cut shit when undocked in order to gain acceptable performance. In this case devs will act like they do on other consoles where they look to push the boundaries of the system in order to make their games look prettier at the cost of performance. Which in this case will likely result in poor running games in both docked and undocked modes. At least for third parties, Nintendo will likely have rock solid to at least acceptable performance for most games.

I honestly think scenario 1 is more likely, and I also hope that is the case.

I don't think it's that crazy. Basically, the NS should be like any other system. Developers just develop for that one spec and the system itself handles the porting down. So developers can get crazy and develop the game however they want without even worrying about the portable aspect. That stuff should be largely out of their hands. Having to constantly be worried about two different specs will just lead to problems and create more of a development headache. No need for the complexity. Developers just make their games like normal without worry. So they can go all out if they want to and it won't matter as the game should function the same when portable.

 

[Skittzo0413]

I don't think it's that crazy. Basically, the NS should be like any other system. Developers just develop for that one spec and the system itself handles the porting down. So developers can get crazy and develop the game however they want without even worrying about the portable aspect. That stuff should be largely out of their hands. Having to constantly be worried about two different specs will just lead to problems and create more of a development headache. No need for the complexity. Developers just make their games like normal without worry. So they can go all out if they want to and it won't matter as the game should function the same when portable.

Well first off that would indeed jive with a report by lherre here several months back that he hadn't heard anything about two power levels (docked vs undocked).

But on the other hand how would this automatic scaling work? For games where the scale down is simply 1080p->720p I guess the OS can instruct the game to change resolution when undocked, but what about a game which only runs at 720p when docked? How does this game automatically scale down without any prior developer instruction?

 

[EDarkness]

Well first off that would indeed jive with a report by lherre here several months back that he hadn't heard anything about two power levels (docked vs undocked).

But on the other hand how would this automatic scaling work? For games where the scale down is simply 1080p->720p I guess the OS can instruct the game to change resolution when undocked, but what about a game which only runs at 720p when docked? How does this game automatically scale down without any prior developer instruction?

I'm sure that's what the OS handles. So I wouldn't expect all games running in portable mode to be 720p, just like I wouldn't expect all games running on the TV to be 1080p. My guess is the system/OS takes care of that and the developers don't have to worry about it at all.

If Nintendo is going for ease of development, then this would be the best way to handle it and make sure that developers don't have to keep track of two modes. The only area where I think there might be some issue is with wether or not the game uses some sort of touch screen functionality. But this may be why the joycons have some sort of pointer functionality and motion controls.

 

[NeonBlack]

It's almost Switchmas.

I like you

 

[Enduin]

I'm sure that's what the OS handles. So I wouldn't expect all games running in portable mode to be 720p, just like I wouldn't expect all games running on the TV to be 1080p. My guess is the system/OS takes care of that and the developers don't have to worry about it at all.

I don't get exactly what you're saying; that the OS will automatically scale games from docked to undocked modes? That seems highly unrealistic. No system does that. That's like expecting the recommended specs button in a PC game to give you the best performance. Devs should be scaling their games accordingly, one size fits all sounds like a recipe for poor running games.

Keeping track of two modes isn't that hard, it's like literally probably just a flip of a switch on the dev units. Devs already have to keep track of different consoles with different hardware and specs, as well as PC space which has countless combinations of CPUs, GPUs and and even multiple APIs in some cases.

 

[EDarkness]

I don't get exactly what you're saying; that the OS will automatically scale games from docked to undocked modes? That seems highly unrealistic. No system does that. That's like expecting the recommended specs button in a PC game to give you the best performance. Devs should be scaling their games accordingly, one size fits all sounds like a recipe for poor running games.

Keeping track of two modes isn't that hard, it's like literally probably just a flip of a switch on the dev units. Devs already have to keep track of different consoles with different hardware and specs, as well as PC space which has countless combinations of CPUs, GPUs and and even multiple APIs.

I know what you mean, but we haven't heard anything about multiple modes, so the take away from this is that games are developed for the max spec and scaled down. The hardware or OS takes care of the scaling down part. So the developers don't have to deal with that. Without knowing what their OS and low level APIs are doing, we don't know what's going on under the hood. Still, for a system that wants to seamlessly go from one to the next, one would have to assume that they've taken this into consideration on the OS or hardware level. The NS is designed to be both and will make adjustments according to what mode it's in. This may be the "gimmick" or main feature that is specific to the NS.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Isnt this machine significantly more powerful than WiiU?

I wouldnt worry about getting competent 1080p gameplay and framerates

 

[Vic]

I doubt that most games will automatically adjust their resolution, graphical effects, etc if they weren't programmed to do so. Every Switch software will probably need to "listen" to an OS system call that will report when the device has been inserted or removed from a dock and adjust their resolution, UI, etc accordingly.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

It'll just work.

 

[Donnie]

I doubt that most games will automatically adjust their resolution, graphical effects, etc if they weren't programmed to do so. Every Switch software will probably need to "listen" to an OS system call that will report when the device has been inserted or removed from a dock and adjust their resolution, UI, etc accordingly.

No effects will be changed between docked and portable mode, only resolution.

 

[Instro]

The ps4 and the x1 have issues running native 1080 at consistent frames. So I think we should be careful expecting the Switch to run everything docked at 1080 as well even if it is newer technology.

I think first party and exclusives will target 1080p or 900p since they would be more likely to tailor the game to hit a higher resolution, even if the docked form has less raw power than the other systems. Comparatively I think any multiplatforms will vary depending on how much devs feel like adjusting the graphic effects down so that the Switch could run it above 720p.

 

[LordOfChaos]

The pipe itself is sealed, but it is just touching the two heat sinks in that picture. The silver colored heat on the GPU is touching the heat pipe and the heat pipe is touching the extra heat sink. The liquid is in the pipe, but the metal to metal contact is enough for the heat sink to let heat flow into the heat pipe and then to the other heat sink.


I guess extra airflow could be enough though. The extra fan doesn't have to be better than an internal fan; it just has to be better than no extra cooling. Nintendo would likely go for a simpler solution.

To be clear, you're seeing one continuous heatpipe that goes inside the aluminum fins (well, through all the smaller heatsinks fins, and lengthwise through the larger heatsink) end to end from one heatsink to the next. It's not just kissing the ends of each one.

What you describe only has a tiny touchpoint between the two, not a continuous heatpipe liquid can go through all the way from end to end. The copper tube goes lengthwise through all the fins in the picture, and directly over the GPU as well.

The amount of metal that would make contact between the two ends in some sort of USB C heatsink would be very very minuscule.

This should better show how they work in that 360 and every heatpipe having heatsink

Note how the heatpipe isn't just touching a part of the heatsink, it goes all the way through the fins for maximum heat transfer.


It's nearly certain to me that all of the heatsink and all if any heatpipes would be inside the tablet, and the dock would only add air suction for cooling.

 

[Vic]

No effects will be changed between docked and portable, only resolution.

Not necessarily true. The two power modes will mainly dictate the performance of the GPU, not the resolution. Downscaling 1080p to 720p in portable mode could be doable with certain games that don't tax the GPU too much.

 

[MikeE21286]

Wasn't this what most had guess the dock would do?

Think so. At least I did. It was logical.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

This is rumored to be weaker than Xbone, right?

So I'd say no.

Nintendo fit all of Super Mario 3D World into 300MB. They can do it, no sweat.

 

[psyfi]

So, do journalists pay leakers for their information? What's in it for them? Momentary anonymous fame? Info on other companies? Free pizza?

 

[bomblord1]

I just pray that resolution is the only thing that changes and not fps

 

[whitehawk]

I feel like most games will aim for 1080p as a baseline, and 720p on the go is mostly a battery saving measure.

 

[Red Devil]

Not sure if I buy this thing of increased performance because of a different power mode or something.

"When returning to TVs, they will not be required to return the system to the same dock it started at."

Well, looks like I'll be buying a dock for every TV in the house.

Now this looks more plausible and it would in fact be a very interesting thing, although I'll likely stick to the included dock and always play on the same TV.

Got to see how much they charge for the dock too.

 

[10k]

Now all we need to know is what's the max clockspeed and how many SM does it have. 2, like TX1, or 3?

Praying for 3. Expecting 2.