OP, I hope you choose the correct maiden for Geralt:
Nope, I won't stand for that.
I go for the one I wasn't cursed with and knows what empathy looks like.
Though Yenn was getting better as the game went on.
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LTTP: The Witcher 3, or everything a fantasy RPG should be (Mark spoilers)
- Thread starter More_Badass
- Start date
Nope, I won't stand for that.
I go for the one I wasn't cursed with and knows what empathy looks like.
I don't get, it doesn't do anything that Morrowind or New Vegas didn't do already and if anything the RPG system is even more shallow than TW1 and 2 and said games, but OK.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
What he means is the sheer amount of work put into a philosophy of "what if the production values of secondary quests are as high as in main ones" so there is not a narrative disconnect between them. So it gives the impression that - other than obvious filler retrieving tasks - the side content is willing you to finish it by sheer force of the player being interested in what is going to happen, rather than because there could be loot, or experience points, a monster at the end, or money involved.
People use the term rpg here, but that is misguided, this approach is more akin to Red Dead Redemption, and in a narrative sense, to a point and click Adventure games. You don't play because you want to solve more puzzles, but because you really want to know what happens next. And in TW3 making every important piece of content look important is what delivers it.
RustyNails
Member
Gaunter O'Dimm is quite frankly one of the best written characters ever. He'd easily make up for an entire game on his own and to see that such a great char being in a DLC...CDP are kings.
His smile fair as Spring, as towards him he draws you
His tongue sharp and silvery, as he implores you
Your wishes he grants, as he swears to adore you
Gold, silver, jewels, he lays riches before you
Dues need be repaid, and he will come for you
All to reclaim, no smile to console you
He snare you with bonds, eyes glowin' afire
To gore and torment you till the stars expire
Official word is 2017
But it does - it offers a lot more choices throughout the main campaign, as well as much more high quality side content. On top that, the combat and crafting systems (while often criticized and certainly not the industry's most amazing) absolutely blow away anything most other open world RPGs offer.
Lastly, while it isn't explicitly "content," after a point you simply can't ignore the production values. Witcher III has so much quality writing and cutscene direction in places that, so often, most players won't even see. Custom areas, cutscenes, journal entries, and voice clips are designed for even the smallest side quests and, considered as a whole, I think it's on a level that is pretty much unprecedented outside of maybe Rockstar's titles.
There is no way it offers more choices than New Vegas, that has like a stat check per line of dialog, (especially if you also take in consideration the gameplay outside of quests, New Vegas offer several different character builds) and the quality of the side content is highly opinion-able. I would argue it has much worse side content than Vegas due to the repetitive and simple quest design and the game world overflowing with stuff like bandit camps and monster nests. And the really, the combat and the crafting system lol... the itemization is also pretty bad.
What you are describing already happened in Morrowing and New Vegas, everything is hand-crafted to the smaller detail. Journal entries, random notes, etc are a stable in the genre, it's literally nothing new. It just has better production value, but it pays off by being much more simpler game, mechanics wise.
I mean, quantity of choices is not the only factor. Almost every time you are faced with a legitimate choice in Witcher III it actually matters and affects someone or something in a fairly major way.
In any case, I like both of the games you're discussing so I'm not going to put them down or anything, but I think there is something to be said for W3 being more than the sum of it's part. Like I said, production values DO matter and for most players aren't something they just handwave away. I don't really think there is any game recently that does so many different things and does them all in anywhere from a competent manner (combat) to an excellent one (overall direction, characters, world design).
I mean, to each his own obviously - like I said I'm not really looking to win anyone over - but I think it's a pretty monumental game and deserves all the credit it gets for doing so much so well. I certainly wouldn't agree with the idea that it doesn't offer anything new.
Imp the Dimp
Member
Not as good as Morrowind or New Vegas, but when it comes to open world RPGs no game is. Those two are pretty easily #1 and #2. W3 is not far off though. Good combat would have made elevated this game to godlike status.
I don't agree at all, that statement is so "fucking bad" (and a tired one at that). Just because it's not souls does not make it bad. It's a better batman simulator than the batman games. That's pretty much what a witcher is. Yeah he's faster than *almost any human but still the underdog against the baddies he faces. It's the meticulous planning and use of tools that makes him come out on top and higher difficulties requires just that.
Opinions and all but as an RPG W3 wins hands down. How can you speak for combat when your #1 is the jankiest first person combat and your #2 is the jankiest FPS? I agree that lore wise Morrowind is definitely up there for me but not for its combat. New Vegas while being the best fallout (of the FPS variety) the lore and story is nothing to write home about.
Imp the Dimp
Member
No it doesn't in my opinion. Morrowind and New Vegas are the best RPGs in the genre as I said.
More_Badass
Member
Honestly they're very different games outside of being open world RPGs. Morrowind and NV are very much about total freedom and letting you role play as any character and personality, while Witcher is about role playing as a very specific character with more defined personality. It's simply not trying to do what Morrowind and NV are doing; your criticisms come across as striking the game because it's not something that it's not trying to be.
Many RPGs don't make you play as a character in the first place, so The Witcher is already unique and different in that regard. In that aspect alone, TW3 is better than MW or NV for me. Playing as Geralt is infinitely more engrossing than as a moldable blank slate in those other games
endlessflood
Member
Yes, you can change the difficulty on the fly. The only thing that affects are the 'difficulty' trophies for finishing on certain difficulty levels. If you want the Deathmarch trophy (for example) then you have to start on Deathmarch difficulty and never change it.
If you're not bothered by the trophies then go nuts
RoboticWater
Banned
These sorts of assessments always fall under the particularly prickly discussion of what exactly does "RPG" mean. Personally, I've never accepted the argument "well, you're roleplaying this character" as a defense for why games like The Witcher are RPG, because you could easily extend that argument to make any game an RPG. In Halo, you roleplay as Master Chief by choosing his actions during combat. Hell, given the sheer amount of options you have in Halo's combat areas, you can roleplay Master Chief's combat personality far more deeply than many RPG.
That's why I think it's best to define RPG as games which facilitate roleplaying player-defined characters rather than just a character, but that's just taxonomic formality. My point is, I think it's reasonable to judge The Witcher 3 harshly on its RPG merits, because for those who enjoy playing their own characters, it's annoying to hear "The Witcher 3 is everything a fantasy RPG should be." For them, it quite clearly isn't, which is fine in a vacuum, but if The Witcher 3 is heralded as "the greatest RPG," then popular RPG design is likely to follow it. If I cared dearly for the RPG genre as it is in games like Morrowind and New Vegas, I don't think I would be thrilled at that an Action/Adventure game is setting the bar.
Personally, I prefer defined protagonists in my games. I'm not much of a roleplayer unless it's actual tabletop and I get more freedom, and like you, I get far more engrossed when the protagonist has emoiton. However, I think it's important to respect the definition of RPG. If we're at the point of saying "Witcher is doing something different," should we not call it something different? Obviously, its pedantic of me to propose; we should be able to suss out what a game is trying to achieve within its genre, but if we're still having the same old Morrowind RPG vs. Witcher RPG, it may behoove us to get specific with our definitions.
I strongly disagree with most of this. TW3 shares very little in common with either Morrowind or New Vegas, and as much as I liked the setting of TW1 and TW2, I didn't enjoy either of the first two games very much. They were much more in the school of BioWare games, whereas TW3 is much more in the school of Rockstar games. I just don't see the comparison.
The Witcher 3 (and its excellent DLC) is easily among my top RPGs alongside Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, and Ultima 7. Each of these four games approaches the genre in totally different ways using completely different systems, narrative structures, and mechanics.
More_Badass
Member
Do you consider Banner Saga or Final Fantasy to be RPGs?
And on that other point, I tend to agree. I'd argue a game like STALKER is more of a (literal definition) role-playing game than some games actually labelled as such
RoboticWater
Banned
They're more tactics games aren't they? I've only played Banner Saga, and from my experience you do get to make fairly weighty decisions that define your personality, but they are all in a linear narrative where you play pre-existing characters. It, as well as Witcher, Mass Effect, and a number of other games are in this weird echelon of RPG where they tighten and loosen roleplaying restrictions in different areas, so deciding if it's RPG or not can be a tough one. Even my definition of "game which facilitates player-determined character" is quite loose because just about every game does that, even if it facilitates it to 0.0001th degree, so there does need to be some arbitrary cutoff somewhere.
In the case of Banner Saga and Witcher, I really think there needs to be a definitive category other than RPG, because the game's do offer player choice, but they constrain them to a definitive plot or even a definitive character arc. In many ways I see these games as some other genre of game (i.e. Tactics game for Banner Saga and Action/Adventure for Witcher) with some degree of character choice added in. I think there needs to be a genre or genre modifier that equates to that "degree of character choice added in," because there is a clear difference in design priorities. Games like Morrowind, New Vegas, and Planescape are designed around player choice; you can be whoever you want to be, kill enemies with any kind of discipline, and complete most missions in whichever way you please (or not completing them at all). In The Witcher, you're only a swordsman (with other supplemental specialties) expected to play through Geralt's narrative making decisions within his frame of mind.
I think you're overstating the degree of choice available in those games. It's all relative; there's always a limit. You're afforded the same sort of options in The Witcher to a lesser extent. The trade off is usually greater detail. If a distinction is made, maybe they could be categorized by character creation. "COCRPGs" (create-a-character) and "PDCRPGs" (predetermined character). The problem with that is sometimes RPGs that allow a custom avatar really don't have much more choice than the Witcher, or the PC is still mostly predetermined but has a different face and/or gender. It also intersects with the term "CRPG."
RoboticWater
Banned
First of all, I wouldn't underestimate the degree of choice in New Vegas or any of those other games I mentioned (If you don't fee like watching that video, it goes over the myriad of ways you can go about completing one of NV's sidequests; for reference, it's a lot). But I completely disagree about the assortment of options The Witcher gives you. Yes, it gives you a decent array of dialog choices, stat boxes, and narrative paths, but in New Vegas you can accept a quest to find some guys son, find the son, kill him, eat him, lie to the dad, and be on your merry way. You could never be so nefarious in The Witcher. You can take moral stances on as many decisions in The Witcher as you want, but you'll never get to pull off something that evil. Geralt isn't ever that evil.
Moreover, I think it matters that you can choose to be a wizard, fighter, rogue, or anything in between. It's important that the combat (and the rest of the gameplay), not just the narrative, is largely up to the player. The mechanics of New Vegas allow me to make a character than can hatch and execute a nefarious scheme like the one I described earlier essentially on a whim.
And sure, the tradeoff is always in detail. Like I said, you can define Master Chief's combat style in Halo with far more depth than you can in most (if not all) RPG, but that doesn't make it a good RPG. Nearly all games are simulators to some extent, letting you define some entity (even if it is just yourself) with an arbitrary degree of depth using some set of mechanics. RPG set themselves apart by letting you define that entity with a great breadth of choices the game acknowledges.
I like the predetermined/user-defined dichotomy, but like you said, it's not always an accurate delimiter. I still think it's fairly obvious when a game is mechanically designed and written around providing the player opportunities to act how they please and one which allows them to navigate a more fixed path.
WheelHoss1
Member
Any game that forces you to spend half the game in Witcher sense mode playing detective has its balance off.
I really think a lot of people are obsessed with this game because they have latent desires for Geralt. Otherwise I don't get it.
I really think a lot of people are obsessed with this game because they have latent desires for Geralt. Otherwise I don't get it.
StrategyFan
Member
you don't even have to look at completely different games to complain about witcher 3's role-playing
just comparing it to witcher 1 is sufficient
just comparing it to witcher 1 is sufficient
RoboticWater
Banned
Not really, no. I think axes moved a bit differently, but only in terms of speed not animation, and swords are the only viable weapon as you get further into the game. The Witcher Gear swords make sure of that.
Don't expect Dark Souls levels of variance here.
Conkerkid11
Member
A game that highlights interactable objects is significantly better than one that has you mindlessly clicking on random things that may or may not be interactable.
Also, it's an RPG set in a massive world with the best side-quests in a game of its scale to date, with fantastic graphics, voice acting, storytelling, gameplay, etc... Literally proving that Bethesda's just milking a cash cow as lazily as they can get away with.
Nestunt
Member
That's what impressed me the most about the game. It is so hard to do open-world games that are beautiful (graphically) and full of life and context at the same time. That's why the best environmental storytelling is best found in linear experiences and why it is so easy to make Second Son or Phantom Pain look amazing.
I still haven't played Morrowind (people keep telling me to), but I have to admit in terms of RPG writing New Vegas is probably just as good as Witcher 3. New Vegas probably is one of the best modern CRPGs.
The difference might be presentation and just overall awareness. Morrowind and New Vegas both came out on consoles but neither game looks anywhere near as attractive as Witcher 3 does, even when accounting for when each game launched. Morrowind in particular came out in a time when console gamers still weren't used to western RPGs -- it had to lay the foundation for Oblivion and Skyrim with the console audience. New Vegas never really shook off the reputation of its bugs. In any case, Witcher 3 pretty much applied that quality of writing and world building top top-notch graphics and art direction for a more outwardly attractive experience.
This too. People have said it's less like a "new Skyrim" and more like a "fantasy Red Dead Redemption." It's also deliberately not designed to have the same amount of choice and freedom as New Vegas or an Elder Scrolls game.
Half the game is a vast exaggeration. Why do people feel the need to make shit up to take down a game? All those GotY awards really got people upset, I guess.
Stahsky
A passionate embrace, a beautiful memory lingers.
I literally only used the witcher senses when the game prompted it, or the medallion shook. If you were just spamming it all game, then that problem is on you.
and no, i didn't put 300 hours into Witcher 3, 120 in Witcher 2, and 80 in Witcher 1 because I secretly wanted to stick my dick in a witcher.
also this, and Morrowind is one of my all-time favorite games. I think a few of you guys are on that nostalgia juice
Basileus777
Member
The thing is that the Witcher 3's progression and leveling system is terrible. These elements feel almost vestigial. The game would have been better had it been cut out and just made an open world action game. It's hard to call it an ideal RPG when this is the case. Oh and the loot is terrible too, especially how it scales with level.
Tetraeon
Member
Just getting back into it after neglecting the game for a while. Reached Skellige and felt overwhelmed so I put it down for a while - what a mistake! Jumping back into the world reminded me how fantastic the quest writing is across the board. Thankfully I grabbed the Seasons Pass when I first picked up the game so I've got a lot more content to look forward to.
nelsonroyale
Member
It is great. It is really great.
I am super exited for Cyberpunk 2077.
I am super exited for Cyberpunk 2077.
Turin Turambar
Member
Funny, as i consider leveling a vestigial element in RPGs. You can make games where you play a role without gaining xp.
It was always an incredibly accessory element, even in p&p rpgs.
Psychoward
Banned
Well now you've gone and triggered me.
NullPointer
Member
Couldn't agree more, but I always feel like an old man screaming at clouds when I mention it.
The Witcher 3 especially would have been far better without leveling and its gobs and gobs of inventory management. It simply doesn't need it. Its already gated by story progression, and tougher beasts could just require more preparation to tackle. That careful preparation was a big deal in the early going, but seemed to get dropped entirely afterwards.
Psychoward
Banned
Which is why as an RPG it fails. Don't get me wrong it is a good game, great even. But as people have mentioned before it feels like Red Dead Redemption with dialog choices. And when I think of what I want as the inspiration for the RPG genre I don't think of a game with bad action combat, terrible leveling, few mechanical ways to approach objectives, terrible loot etc.
Furthermore even the way the endings play out is kinda silly. Without going in to spoilers I got the ending I didn't think I would get solely because I thought I would have the option to do something later (reunite with the emperor) but because Witcher 3 uses game logic I never got to do that.
Basileus777
Member
I agree when it comes to pen and paper, though applying it to video games just creates futile arguments about genre definitions where we debate whether Telltale makes RPGs.
NullPointer
Member
Maybe technically for what people usually refer to as RPGs, but as an old school PnP Role-player who ditched most rules and die roles, a Witcher 3 without levels would be a better RPG than most others for my tastes.
Psychoward
Banned
I mean maybe a better game but like mechanically its RPG elements are all widely agreed to be pretty sub-par.
Which is why it bothers me when people hold up W3 as the framework that all other RPGs should be based upon.
NullPointer
Member
Again, it depends upon what you consider to be RPG elements. Stats and levels and loot do not an RPG make in my universe, though I'm well aware that's all you need to classify a game as such.
Its about playing a character, setting your own goals and making choices with consequences and involving yourselves in the world's stories. That's what I look for in an RPG, and all that stats nonsense usually just gets in the way.
More_Badass
Member
It shouldn't. That would be ridiculous, and I don't think anyone is actually saying that. Just because I want more RPGS like W3 doesn't mean I want all RPGs to be like W3
More_Badass
Member
Over 25 hours in now, just finished Redania's Most Wanted
Officially the most time I put into any RPG, and it'll definitely be the most time I put into any game by next week
Does Firestream get more powerful once it's fully upgraded? It looks and feels awesome to use, but seems like it should do way more damage.
Officially the most time I put into any RPG, and it'll definitely be the most time I put into any game by next week
Does Firestream get more powerful once it's fully upgraded? It looks and feels awesome to use, but seems like it should do way more damage.
Magic is always a tad underpowered, as I pointed out before it's certainly usable and Blood and Wine even makes it viable moreso with the mutation systems it adds, but ultimately until you get there you're always going to have to attack a lot. I found alternate igni fire to be extremely good on humans and beasts in general, most of them panic when you're going in with it, and especially on single mobs for most of the game I was able to hold a stream on them and watch them just never move (They'd try to advance, get lit ablaze and back off screaming while I kept roasting them, repeat forever). As you get farther in though you'll come more and more to appreciate things like Yrden alt fire, and your melee even if you go 0 combat build is pretty strong in comparison. Standard igni has really good crowd control due to being a wide arc, but in a narrower setting or where all enemies are in the same direction just flicking between targets with the stream is very good still.
Just need to learn what magic each monster type is weak to, even though it seems like Igni is the only attack magic, a monster weak to Yrden for example will become VERY slow in a field, and alt Yrden will light them up. Things that're weak to igni will get DECIMATED by the stream.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
I STILL haven't even finished the main story. One of my favorites.
I think the difference is in Skyrim it's super basic and difficulty in general is lower so you can sort of ignore it. In the Witcher 3 there's just unavoidable moments where combat dreadful, mostly when you're stuck in a small space against several enemies.
StoppedInTracks
Member
You are a mod so you have to be something special but... those numbers and facts that you are saying... 25 hours for an RPG and any game in history... like, are you 19-years old? what consoles/ PC did you own in the past?
No, of course you don't have to answer any of that but man... I could recommend you so many great RPGs but I do not know will you even feel like playing them?
There is a world of fantastic games just waiting for you outside, More_Badass. Embrace them! As you already know GAF will suggest only the top of the tops - do you like first person RPGs? isometric? turn-based? are 320x240 VGA games too old for you?
More_Badass
Member
Oh, and Novigrad is easily one of the best game cities I've ever encountered. GTA V's world may be more lively and dynamic, but Novigrad feels like a place you can get lost in. The different districts and kinds of people, the varied architecture, the harbors and squares, the realistic feel of the twisting streets and branching alleys, the patrolling guards and random bandit/gang ambushes.
Coming from the countryside through the military outposts and bridges and then the bustling "suburbs" on the outskirts with the city walls looming, into the tightly-packed urban streets...the scale and design of the world is so damn impressive
Coming from the countryside through the military outposts and bridges and then the bustling "suburbs" on the outskirts with the city walls looming, into the tightly-packed urban streets...the scale and design of the world is so damn impressive