BronsonLee
Member
Good, her and Chris G can get in the fuckin bin
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Marvel Vs. Capcom: Infinite Characters and Stages Roster Discussion Thread
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Newniverse
Member
LOL Exactly my thoughts. Might not be a popular opinion but all that spam/zoning can go to the shit bin. Never been fond of people playing like that. As i said, not a popular opinion.
Doctrine Dark
Member
Seemed like the MorriDoom stuff was what began to turn off viewers in general.
Brand new game with new meta. I'm good with this.
Brand new game with new meta. I'm good with this.
Is Morrigan a sexist racist now too?!
Also, due to how switching works Morringan's with the right lockdown partner could still make her really strong with hover dash mixup.
Armor on any move will be ridiculously OP since you could just throw it out and switch with minimal consequences.
Karsticles
Member
When you're just waiting for the characters you want to play to get official reveals...
On the other hand, don't forget the SRK boards UMvC3 pre-release, and how wrong the entire Morrigan community was.
I REALLY want to see her new move (apparently a trap?) before I judge, and I think that Morrigan will be a support character to create pressure for her partner.
It's not going to be gone in this game.
Nah, the game was just getting stale and predictable. ChrisG had nothing to do with it.
On one hand, I feel the same way.
On the other hand, don't forget the SRK boards UMvC3 pre-release, and how wrong the entire Morrigan community was.
I REALLY want to see her new move (apparently a trap?) before I judge, and I think that Morrigan will be a support character to create pressure for her partner.
as a Morrigan player
neutering Morrigan's game sucks, Doom's not in the game anymore so there is no MorriDoom(i dont play MorriDoom anyway)
Morrigan is still going to be far more relevant in this game than Ryu.
Ryu looks so bad in this game right now. It's like they haven't learned from 2 decades of these games that they need to give Ryu actual tools to be playable. You can't do work in this game with just a basic Hadoken, SRK and Tatsus.
Ryu looks so bad in this game right now. It's like they haven't learned from 2 decades of these games that they need to give Ryu actual tools to be playable. You can't do work in this game with just a basic Hadoken, SRK and Tatsus.
That's typically Ryu in any Marvel game tho no?
Newniverse
Member
Unfortunately bro.... Unfortunately. lol
What characters are you waiting to get revealed if you dont mind my asking?
Doctrine Dark
Member
Then why was everyone always complaining about Soul Fist/Missiles being boring to watch? I'm not even talking about far into the game's span. This was happening in 2012. People were whining about it well before the game got stale. Between that, Zero May Cry, Doom TAC's, it turned people off.
Yeah but you are just wasting the game slot that way if you are just going to make a bad character that doesn't bring anything to the table.
And it's not that hard to make him good in these games. Better fireballs, angles on fireballs, charged fireballs, better Tatsus, give him a Focus Attack or Parry etc. Or hell use the MvC 1 multiple shoto transformation gimmick.
Newniverse
Member
So im going to speak my opinion here... It is because of that type of ish. It was boring and very unfair. If I hit you, those missiles should go away, not stay on screen. Thats horse turds. Youre making the game very unfun for the other person and the spectators. No one should have to chase you around the screen and pray to god if they lands a hit they can come out not getting hit by a soul fist or missile.
EDIT: So by god, im glad that ish is getting toned down and that we can reflect projectiles. This was SERIOUSLY needed.
Doctrine Dark
Member
The one great thing was to see how people would get around it. However, once you did that, you had to worry about Vergil.
F.Champ was a pretty good match for Chris G back then. He narrowly beat him at Evo 2012, but it really could've went either way. After that, it seemed to be entirely in Chris's favor.
F.Champ was a pretty good match for Chris G back then. He narrowly beat him at Evo 2012, but it really could've went either way. After that, it seemed to be entirely in Chris's favor.
Newniverse
Member
Exactly....
By the time you got rid of morrigan and doom, you were already chip damaged like crazy and barely hanging on..... Then here comes vergil with the condom on to.... You get the point.
...and don't get me started on vergil. New level of fuckery.
By the time you got rid of morrigan and doom, you were already chip damaged like crazy and barely hanging on..... Then here comes vergil with the condom on to.... You get the point.
...and don't get me started on vergil. New level of fuckery.
Morrigan and Missiles is a very unfair combination of duo and then putting in XF Vergil at the back was just cherry on top in terms of unfairness. If you could pick 4 characters in that game then ChrisG would have put in Zero to complete the cheap quadrilogy.
Morrigan has been winning tournaments even without Missiles. Both RyanLV and Terry Bogard have done well in tournaments lately (RyanLV won all but one tournament this year). So the character is obviously very good and it's not ChrisG's exclusive domain nor is it a "but but she is only good with Missiles!" type situation.
Like the whole fly cancel Soul Fist in AV was definitely not working as intended in that game. A lot of characters just could not play in that type of atmosphere. That's essentially what slowly killed the game... Morrigan pushed out the lower tiers harder than someone like Magneto and then you stratified the tiers into what we see today. Of course it alone was not going to kill off the game (TAC infinites, Doom, Zero, Vergil were just as bad) but it certainly did not help matters.
You can just watch the latest Angelic vs ChrisG match. Match is going fine but then at the end Angelic is put into a situation where he could never win from because ChrisG got to set up against Wolverine (both didn't have XF). That's a terrible situation to have in a competitive game.
To say that they were going to "nerf AV Soul Fist spam" in MvC I was an understatement though I am not sure how this new Morrigan is supposed to play. Seems more offensively inclined with the faster movement and better combos. It's hard to say how she will fit in with tags and stones in the game.
Morrigan has been winning tournaments even without Missiles. Both RyanLV and Terry Bogard have done well in tournaments lately (RyanLV won all but one tournament this year). So the character is obviously very good and it's not ChrisG's exclusive domain nor is it a "but but she is only good with Missiles!" type situation.
Like the whole fly cancel Soul Fist in AV was definitely not working as intended in that game. A lot of characters just could not play in that type of atmosphere. That's essentially what slowly killed the game... Morrigan pushed out the lower tiers harder than someone like Magneto and then you stratified the tiers into what we see today. Of course it alone was not going to kill off the game (TAC infinites, Doom, Zero, Vergil were just as bad) but it certainly did not help matters.
You can just watch the latest Angelic vs ChrisG match. Match is going fine but then at the end Angelic is put into a situation where he could never win from because ChrisG got to set up against Wolverine (both didn't have XF). That's a terrible situation to have in a competitive game.
To say that they were going to "nerf AV Soul Fist spam" in MvC I was an understatement though I am not sure how this new Morrigan is supposed to play. Seems more offensively inclined with the faster movement and better combos. It's hard to say how she will fit in with tags and stones in the game.
Newniverse
Member
On this Dahbomb, we are on an agreement on.
Karsticles
Member
People need to remember that Morridoom wasn't even a thing in Vanilla. It was only made possible through very very slight buffs in UMvC3 along with the Wolverine nerf, and it's in the top 3 hardest teams to play in the entire game.
Dormammu (MvC3 and UMvC3 main, well over 10,000 matches with him)
Firebrand (on my main UMvC3 team, but I'm not set on him)
Jedah (#1 request of mine for Marvel)
Morrigan (off-team character I used a lot and enjoy, though she looks like shit here)
Venom (he's just cool)
Dormammu is an auto-include unless they reduce him to a heaping pile of trash that plays nothing like his former self. So then it's just about who I want to partner him with. I will probably like Jedah/Dormammu and main them together unless Morrigan has some secret sauce or Firebrand got a rework. Venom is the wild card - who knows how he will play if the leaks are right.
MvCi will eventually be the same way. People think the tag mechanic is going to be so open and amazing, but after a year matches will devolve into blockstring -> setup move -> tag -> mixup, and we'll see it over and over again along with the same bnbs.
I play zoning characters, and I'm the opposite of you: I find rushdown into mixups very boring. ChrisG's gameplay was one of the few things I appreciated throughout the mature period of the game. His neutral ALWAYS had to adapt on the fly, but minds lacking experience and subtlety just saw spam. It's much more engaging than rinse and repeat setups that lead to 50/50s until someone guesses wrong.
Reflecting projectiles just means beams are king.
Hidden Missiles needed a small nerf, but you have to recall that it was buffed as a result of Vanilla Marvel being 100% rushdown where people dashed in, did something invincible into a mixup, etc. Vanilla Marvel was way worse as a result of not having viable zoners or keepaway. EVERY 2D fighter needs a mix of viable playstyles or it becomes degenerate.
I don't even know Ryu's moveset, lol. Did he get anything new?
There are 5 characters I'm interested in from the lists that have been floating around:
Dormammu (MvC3 and UMvC3 main, well over 10,000 matches with him)
Firebrand (on my main UMvC3 team, but I'm not set on him)
Jedah (#1 request of mine for Marvel)
Morrigan (off-team character I used a lot and enjoy, though she looks like shit here)
Venom (he's just cool)
Dormammu is an auto-include unless they reduce him to a heaping pile of trash that plays nothing like his former self. So then it's just about who I want to partner him with. I will probably like Jedah/Dormammu and main them together unless Morrigan has some secret sauce or Firebrand got a rework. Venom is the wild card - who knows how he will play if the leaks are right.
People complained about ALL of those things being boring. That's my point. It wasn't ChrisG, it was the game becoming too predictable in general. To quote Yipes whenever Zero hit someone: "I think I've seen this movie before".
MvCi will eventually be the same way. People think the tag mechanic is going to be so open and amazing, but after a year matches will devolve into blockstring -> setup move -> tag -> mixup, and we'll see it over and over again along with the same bnbs.
Marvel is unfair. Morridoom was unfair, but so is everything else you saw at high level play. Period.
I play zoning characters, and I'm the opposite of you: I find rushdown into mixups very boring. ChrisG's gameplay was one of the few things I appreciated throughout the mature period of the game. His neutral ALWAYS had to adapt on the fly, but minds lacking experience and subtlety just saw spam. It's much more engaging than rinse and repeat setups that lead to 50/50s until someone guesses wrong.
Reflecting projectiles just means beams are king.
Hidden Missiles needed a small nerf, but you have to recall that it was buffed as a result of Vanilla Marvel being 100% rushdown where people dashed in, did something invincible into a mixup, etc. Vanilla Marvel was way worse as a result of not having viable zoners or keepaway. EVERY 2D fighter needs a mix of viable playstyles or it becomes degenerate.
I should have been more clear, when I say a "problem" I mean clearly overpowered, hard to watch/play against combination. It was such a problem that I think it actively hurt the game and made people not want to watch. That was morrigan with missiles.
Of course Morrigan in Ultimate is still a very strong character no matter what, but Ryan LV's playstyle is nowhere near as frustrating to watch or play against as Morridoom.
but the bottom line is they took a BUNCH of stuff away from morrigan in the transition to infinite and I can't fathom she'll be receiving enough tools to make up for it.
Of course Morrigan in Ultimate is still a very strong character no matter what, but Ryan LV's playstyle is nowhere near as frustrating to watch or play against as Morridoom.
but the bottom line is they took a BUNCH of stuff away from morrigan in the transition to infinite and I can't fathom she'll be receiving enough tools to make up for it.
I find it pretty difficult to make any kind of statements about what characters have or don't have when the engine is so vastly different.
It's gonna take some heavy lab time to tell whether or not a character has what it takes when the game is going to be centered so much on tag mix-ups.
It's gonna take some heavy lab time to tell whether or not a character has what it takes when the game is going to be centered so much on tag mix-ups.
Tetsuo9999
Member
I miss TvC Ryu. At least he had an airdash and wasn't completely terrible in that game. His assist being a great ground combo extender worked in his favor too. It's a shame he's been such a drag to play since then.
I'm sorry but I feel 0 sympathy to Morrigan players. Hopefully this game she's Phoenix Wright tier
Doctrine Dark
Member
Chris G doesn't seem to have an issue with Morrigan right now.
Of course it's his first time trying her, but he'd have a better grasp of her than anyone else.
Of course it's his first time trying her, but he'd have a better grasp of her than anyone else.
There's a big difference between watching Dormammu, Viper, Magneto, Zero, MODOK, Trish, Dante etc. play the zoning game versus watching Morrigan do the same.
I mean yeah ChrisG has to play immaculate and adapt etc. but there are many match ups and situations where he is in fact just in auto pilot mode because the other person can literally not do anything. This situation happens more with Morrigan than any other zoner in the game.
It's the polar opposite of the Zero situation on the rushdown vs zoning spectrum. Zero puts you in a situation after getting hit where you have to guess mix ups where as Morrigan puts you in a situation where you have to sit there and block taking unavoidable chip damage. Neither of these feels good to play against or to watch someone experience it. At a certain point it doesn't matter how hard the execution is, it's about the strategy and the player vs player interaction.
Except Ryu, I would bet money on him not being top tier in the game.
I mean yeah ChrisG has to play immaculate and adapt etc. but there are many match ups and situations where he is in fact just in auto pilot mode because the other person can literally not do anything. This situation happens more with Morrigan than any other zoner in the game.
It's the polar opposite of the Zero situation on the rushdown vs zoning spectrum. Zero puts you in a situation after getting hit where you have to guess mix ups where as Morrigan puts you in a situation where you have to sit there and block taking unavoidable chip damage. Neither of these feels good to play against or to watch someone experience it. At a certain point it doesn't matter how hard the execution is, it's about the strategy and the player vs player interaction.
Yeah I wouldn't make any statements about tier placements on characters in this game yet.
Except Ryu, I would bet money on him not being top tier in the game.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I want to comment on that. I do recalled that one of Capcom head said that they mostly chose characters based on the story mode? Did I recalled that wrong? I'm trying to find the article at the moment.
She's not playable in demo yet.
Dat Rocket fuckery at hand. lol More and more, I love playing with Rocket. Hes that one character I had no interest in the last installment, and find myself loving him.
I love that! haha!
That's 5 steps to short IMO they should get rid of her specials, normal, hypers, and health pool. Picking Morrigan should just instantly take you to the lose screen
I'm not serious
At least not completely
Newniverse
Member
Marvel has always been cheap, but never unfair. (unless you count infinites). You can zone all you like, but when I catch you, that should be the end of it. It becomes unfair when a single missile in the air almost GUARANTEES you about to come out with a combo on me. I can handle foot dives all day. But not the missiles... Thats truly god material and not good for any other character on the game.
out of all the scrubby shit said, this is probably the funniest
like literally every marvel series game has insanely stratified tiering and omega-fucked up level shit.
except MSHvsSF i guess supposedly? i always hear about how neutered that game is but frankly i wouldn't know since the only thing i've ever seen for it is combo vid infinite garbage
Newniverse
Member
I was talking about the moveset in general.. hence why i said what i said. I notice an insult instead of actually backing up a point.
And so not only did you try to insult me, you actually just revealed you havent played any marvel game before MVC1... lol... ok guy.
OmegaSmash
Member
TvC Ryu is the only fun Mahvel like Ryu.
i think some people are looking at it in a vacuum. There were many imitators of Chris G w/ morridoom. he (and to a lesser degree Cosmos)was the ONLY successful Morridoom player. Most "Morridoom"'players could be handled/beaten. There are more level 3 Virgils that takes 1/3 the work, making UMVC3 a 1 player game than morrigan and doom.
Doom missiles needed to go away on hit, Morrigan shouldn't gain meter while in astral. those are fair imo.
missiles made morridoom brain dead not astral vision and unfly
morrigan by herself is very manageable, even w/ varja or jam session as assist
No that game is for sure omega busted as well. Everyone has infinites off of everything at high level. But people didn't even care enough about the game over another jank game like X Men vs SF.
The pattern is that Marvel games get less broken and imbalanced with each iteration. Marvel 3 is fairly well balanced (within the versus series) despite all this talk about Morrigan and Doom.
Doctrine Dark
Member
Wolverine and Omega Red were stupid in that game. Leagues ahead of everyone else.
Mvc will always be super bullshit. Just because Morrigan got nerfed harder than a 10 year old in a nerf war, it doesn't mean that Capcom is taking away the broken bullshit we all love and love to hate, they're just giving the non Morrigan players
what we've been begging to be patched in since 2013. I guarantee that somebody (hopefully monster hunter) will be just as broken in infinite as Morrigan was in 3 especially now with stones
Online scrubs
I just hope that resets are an actual thing in MvC again.
My other concern about the game is that losing a character is such a big hit in this game. Like the difference between able to use the Tag ability and not is night and day. It's significantly worse than losing one character in Marvel 2/3.
I really hope the meta doesn't devolve into who gets the first hit into a kill combo/mix up set up that leads into death because that would result in a very snowball type game. I am not convinced that the gems would make enough of a difference to counteract the loss of Tag.
My other concern about the game is that losing a character is such a big hit in this game. Like the difference between able to use the Tag ability and not is night and day. It's significantly worse than losing one character in Marvel 2/3.
I really hope the meta doesn't devolve into who gets the first hit into a kill combo/mix up set up that leads into death because that would result in a very snowball type game. I am not convinced that the gems would make enough of a difference to counteract the loss of Tag.
Doctrine Dark
Member
According to DevilJin, Zero can cancel his Ryuenjin into this now:
So Zero has ice techniques from both X4 and X5.
So Zero has ice techniques from both X4 and X5.
Newniverse
Member
Overall im very happy with the tagging in the game. Makes mix ups great. I've done the same rocket mix up with captain america by cartwheeling behind my enemy, then tagging.
Newniverse
Member
You know what, funny enough, thats the only time ive EVER played with Ryu in a vs game.
it's interesting that you single out MVC1 specifically- why is that? it's such a common breakpoint for folks who pretend like old games were these bastions of good design over 'newer' games.
that you think morrigan is somehow more unfair than any old versus series game where you just outright lose off throws or confirmable hits against competent players is very intriguing. i don't know what universe you come from where morrigan's fireball hell is worse than everyone being able to effectively firebrand-style unblockable you off common confirms into one-touch-kills.
and like i said, the singling out of her moveset is hilarious considering how stratified tiering is in every other marvel game, including MSHvSF accordin' to those folks. every game has it's asshole chars, that's what marvel always has been and infinite will be no different. how many characters did cable and sentinel render unplayable vs. how many morrigan does? i really want to know because i am not a marvel 2 player so a veteran like you would know, right?
not only do you lose tag, you also lose the ability to burst. if one of the gems is a revive gem i really can't see that not being the best one given how the game seems to function. being able to restore functionality to your team is like guaranteed going to always be the best choice unless the other games are XF3 level stupidity in terms of comeback potential.
also, am i insane or do level 3 supers scale now? every combo i've seen into level 3s make them do very little damage.
yeah i think the new tag mechanic is a very nice addition. ultimately freedom and creativity is marvel.
i just need to get use to not being able to cancel the new dash animations .. the characters seem to have extra momentum-lol
Doctrine Dark
Member
Ryu will forever be known as the ordinary man.
Ryu gets nerfed in his main game and hasn't gotten anything in Infinite. Fucked up.
Ryu gets nerfed in his main game and hasn't gotten anything in Infinite. Fucked up.
Yeah I very much suspect that LVL3 scale now. I am probably OK with that given that you can get a free LVL3 from Gem activation.
Some of the Gems do have XF like comeback potential. Stuff like Time gem into quick movement into mash one button for an easy TOD or Space Cube into forced mix up city or Reality gem which leads to force "eat my shit" situations.
Most people have not played Marvel games before MVC1, hell or even Marvel 2.
When people say "when's Mahvel?" they sure as hell aren't talking about X Men Children of the Atom.
thinking on it i should probably be less inflammatory since i'm mostly fuckin' around.
if you're gettin' the idea that i'm actually attacking your character or integrity or whatever newniverse that's my bad! sorry 'bout that, it's just shittalk.
seriously though i really don't get the idea that morrigan is worse than like, COTA storm or wolverine in like every single game i've had to fight his dumb ass in
anyhow, here's some footage finally coming out of CEO 2017.
this time it's from imashbuttons, who's a midwest firebrand player. it's just 10min of dudes tryin' the game out so you can see that kinda initial experimentation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6IsXeRwgqE
that's one thing i really hope sticks around in marvel inf- the really shitty chars in 3 are still super fun and unique (except hsienko)
if you're gettin' the idea that i'm actually attacking your character or integrity or whatever newniverse that's my bad! sorry 'bout that, it's just shittalk.
seriously though i really don't get the idea that morrigan is worse than like, COTA storm or wolverine in like every single game i've had to fight his dumb ass in
anyhow, here's some footage finally coming out of CEO 2017.
this time it's from imashbuttons, who's a midwest firebrand player. it's just 10min of dudes tryin' the game out so you can see that kinda initial experimentation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6IsXeRwgqE
that's one thing i really hope sticks around in marvel inf- the really shitty chars in 3 are still super fun and unique (except hsienko)
allenpergallon
Member
According to DevilJin, Zero can cancel his Ryuenjin into this now:
So Zero has ice techniques from both X4 and X5.
No lie, but I always felt this should've been a thing in MvC3. Glad to hear they did it.