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Metroid: Zero Mission coming to NA VC tomorrow
- Thread starter James Scott
- Start date
But that's not what happens. She's asked if she has any objections (I honestly can't remember why they ask her specifically, I think just because she's a woman and Adam and the rest are sexist) and she responds with a negative, that she has no objections to the mission. While the rest if the crew is asked if it's clear or whatever so they give the thumbs up.
It's corny and dumb as heck but it's not her flipping the finger and doing whatever she wants.
Agent Unknown
Member
Sorry, I don't care what the actual reasoning was on the thumbs down bit, it was just one more silly element piled on an already trash story and botched presentation and only served to make Samus look silly and foolish. I also don't see how thinking Other M is a rather poor game and huge step backwards in comparison to the rest of the series and not being well received overall by a lot of people as "mental denial." People aren't in denial with the game, they simply expect much better from the series than what Other M provided and rightly so. It's not a completely bad game per se, but it's a very poor game for a Metroid title and there's a serious issue when certain elements within a story can be easily interpreted as just stupid or even offensive. I
It kind of reminds me of Sunshine's place in the Mario 3D series. It's not a bad game per and has enjoyable moments and I get that some people want their sandbox Mario, but the game as a whole gets pulled down into the muck with its collective faults which can't be overlooked, much like Other M. And it's not just the awful story and presentation obviously, the overly forced linearity, insulting and moronic Adam/authorization system, the Ice Beam glitch (thank goodness I dodged that, talk about poor QC), a crucial gameplay element which the player isn't even informed of
the power bomb finale with the Metroid Queen
Really? I'm just going to stand here fixed in place and shoot some bugs that an anime girl is directing at me until the final cut scene decides to start?
Other M is the antithesis of good Nintendo development. Good Nintendo development does everything for the gameplay and the player first. Other M does everything to indulge the conceits and odd preferences of its creator and constantly puts gameplay and the player's needs second.
Had forgotten how terrible the translation is hahaha.
But I don't see your point? It's what I was saying.
EVA UNIT 01
Member
First time playing ZM.
Bought immediately and i gotta say im loving it better than i did fusion and i liked fusion.
Bought immediately and i gotta say im loving it better than i did fusion and i liked fusion.
It definitely hearkens back to the more isolated atmosphere of Super. While it does have cutscenes, they're all silent and are more about establishing the mood, rather than bombarding you with back story and exposition. I don't think it ever gets quite as silently creepy as Super does, but it does have its moments and without getting too into it, being a fan of Super pays off big time in Zero Mission towards the end of the game.
Professor Renegade
Banned
Nice, didn't get into Metroid until after Zero Mission, so I'll be buying this
The atmosphere is something of a fusion (*headexplode*) of Fusion and Super. Think of how Super Metroid would look but with a more vibrant and lively color palette and more upbeat (but still really awesome) music.
superNESjoe
Member
Super first. Super is an older game, and doesn't control as smooth as Zero, so going back might be hard.
Oh I don't mean it personally. I think the game is alright, but I understand where most of the issues people have with it come from. But a lot of times I see people recalling things the wrong way. Which helps spread the vitriol underservedly in some ways
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
They ask her because she was notoriously rebellious and it became a in-joke-esque thing of her just disapproving, but more japanese in a way
Agent Unknown
Member
So NOA decides to literally put Zero Mission nowhere whatsoever on the front page of the e-shop, happy 30th Anniversary, Metroid!
Got it.
Now no more of this Other M stuff, people need to be discussing the greatness that is Zero Mission.
Oh I don't mean it personally. I think the game is alright, but I understand where most of the issues people have with it come from. But a lot of times I see people recalling things the wrong way. Which helps spread the vitriol underservedly in some ways
Got it.
Now no more of this Other M stuff, people need to be discussing the greatness that is Zero Mission.
It's pretty close. I hated Fusion too.
You should play the original too if you care the most about atmosphere. I've never played another game that gives you the isolated claustrophobic feel as the original. No other game that captures the feeling of being lost and alone at the same time. It makes you feel like a rat in a maze. Some don't like that. I love it. Even if you don't, the game is like 3 hours long. It's worth trying out.
freethoughtbubble
Member
I still can't believe how terrible the writing is in that game. It reads like the worst fan fiction imaginable.
Buying Zero Mission when I get home. Looking back, it's probably my favorite Metroid game of all time.
TheGamingBox
Banned
initially i thought they were holding back to tie it with the new game's launch or something but this release just proves they were fooling around all the time.
Agent Unknown
Member
You have to beat the game in order to unlock NES Metroid, but regardless I'm sure they wouldn't cut it. As said before, other titles on VC like DKC 64 still have their bonus games like DK Arcade, Wario Ware's copy of Dr. Mario, ect.
Edit: Missed the reply by theNintendoBox.
Sorry, missed this, you absolutely nailed it. These are my exact feelings as well and no, I'm 99% sure the word Chozo was never even mentioned once in Other M, so strange. Also, I've posted this before, what's also very, very strange is how Sakamoto insists in Other M that Samus has an almost total lack of confidence and constant emotional fragility which is completely at odds with the very strict instructions Sakamoto himself previously gave to Tanabe for MP's development and how Samus should be interpreted and presented as a character:
Ok, that's my last Other M post on this thread, promise.
Edit: Missed the reply by theNintendoBox.
I'm pretty sure the word "Chozo" isn't mentioned at all in Other M, which is a rather bizarre path to take, considering the canon Manga, Zero Mission and the Prime series having major Chozo references, and being released not that long before Other M.
It also waters down Samus' childhood. "I had nobody to call family, no parents, I am a sad person
Sorry, missed this, you absolutely nailed it. These are my exact feelings as well and no, I'm 99% sure the word Chozo was never even mentioned once in Other M, so strange. Also, I've posted this before, what's also very, very strange is how Sakamoto insists in Other M that Samus has an almost total lack of confidence and constant emotional fragility which is completely at odds with the very strict instructions Sakamoto himself previously gave to Tanabe for MP's development and how Samus should be interpreted and presented as a character:
Ok, that's my last Other M post on this thread, promise.
georgetheplushie
Member
My favorite thing about Zero Mission is how knowledge of the original both meets and subverts expectations. I remember starting the game after recently finishing the original Metroid on NES, and being pleasantly surprised to find upgrades right where I expected them to be, going out of my way to check for them earlier than the game would usually naturally point you in that direction. Then there's all the interesting tweaks and changes made like new boss encounters and the entire ending section.
It's probably one of my top three games of all time, and definitely my favorite Metroid title. I guess I should buy it on VC even though I own the cart.
It's probably one of my top three games of all time, and definitely my favorite Metroid title. I guess I should buy it on VC even though I own the cart.
Agent Unknown
Member
One thing I won't put up with and have no intention of supporting on NX going forward would be a continuation of Dan Adelman's terrible drip-feed management model for the Virtual Console in NA which continues to this day long after he left NOA. Management and handling of the VC needs a massive overhaul. It's insultingly incompetent and insipid on all levels.
I believe you've forgotten something.
this just makes me want a new Bomberman more than anything
Agent Unknown
Member
It's not quite as creepy as Super Metroid is in places, but it's definitely a very moody, atmospheric game with the same great sense of isolation that both Super and Metroid NES have. Music isn't as eery as Super's tracks but is still moody in all the right places and is a very nice, ambient remix of the NES soundtrack. Some of, if not the best music on GBA, period.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Do we have an OT for Metroid ZM? I literally just bought it and reached
and loving it to bits. The only thing I'm not digging is the music but that's more the fault of the GBA's hardware than the game. I hate GBA music output in general.
Norfair
Sniff, a man after my own heart. Part of my glorious misspent youth was beating the original Metroid, once a day for an entire summer.
Zero Mission, once I'm done with these legal filings, the baby is asleep, and anything else I need to do, your mine.
yes, I directly addressed that in the last post... It was depressing to the point of almost being patronizing how far they missed the mark despite realizing that there is something there that was missing from fusion.
Metroid isn't really about non linear design. Metroid is about discovering a linear path, hidden in a non linear and persistent world. If you make the path to obvious, or force the player to stay on it, or rub the players face in it like a dog that pood the carpet, and youve screwed the pooch, and people will refer to your game as a 'backtracking' game. Go to far in the other direction though, and things become too loose, and lose impact. If it becomes too simple to advance, if all choices work, then they all become equally meaningless, again, you have screwed the pooch. Metroid style design is a very, very, very, very difficult balance to achieve, and one that can not be solved by throwing money at it. Its why the genre is untouched by AAA's.
In order to understand how far apart super and zero mission are, its necessary to go into their individual design motifs. Namely the concept of hard locks and soft locks. Metroid up to super/prime, were designed with the main focus on soft locks, with hard locks merely being interspersed occasionally as an enforcement. Metroids past that point, and all metroidvanias that attempt to emulate metroid, particularly indie productions, most only use hard locks.
Both locks are solutions to progression design. Its a two part design, the key, or the power up, and the obstacle created to test the players skill, critical thinking, and problem solving abilities utilizing the rules of the key.
A hard lock is basically a disguised key and locked door. Barely disguised, doesn't challenge the player at all. The classic metroid hard lock is the red missile door, and its cousin the missile block. The player has the key, the door opens. Missiles, super missiles, power bombs, morph ball bomb blocks, you get the idea. The morph ball is a better disguised hard lock.
A soft lock is something that fundamentally changes the rules/identity of the game, and uses those changes to control progress.
As you play a game, any game, you observe the rules of the game sub-consciously and begin forming a identity of the game in your mind. How fast do you move, how far can you jump, how high, how many shots does it take to defeat an enemy. Its this information you use innately to make split second judgments, you can tell that projectile is on a collision course with the character because of the consistant rules demonstrated by the game, you know when and where the impact will occur. Whether you choose to reverse directions to avoid the projectile, or continue advancing and jump over it, has to do with how you have internalized the rules of the game, as its mental identity in your mind.
A soft lock completely shakes that up, and has the player completely re-evaluate that identity, because it changes a fundamental rule.
Like, how High can I jump? Upon aquiring the high jump, the player is suddenly forced to re remember and rethink all the areas they have previously been too. Not simply remember that there was a door that they have the key to now, but a fundamental shift in how they think about where they can go and what they can do.
Hard lock are digital, yes or no. Soft locks are analog. A completely different way of thinking about progression.
Hard locks have one way that the lock can be implemented, it makes for repetitive mundane design, and results in people frequently uttering the word 'back tracking', because they aren't doing/thinking anything new, and are in the same old areas just going to a door, to use the key. Soft locks obstacles can have vast myriads of designs testing different skills. Now the player has to go and test how far, and how high they can jump, what range can I expect with a wall jump now? And a running jump? I bet I can barely reach that ledge now and nail a perfect wall jump and make it on top of that platform.
Soft locks are immensely powerful. They are also very very hard to design, and require a lot of trial and error testing, whereas hard locks are very simple and require little time. Soft locks are so powerful, they give so much control to the players agency, that the design team simply has no way of anticipating the things players would be able to do with them. This is why Super Metroid and Metroid Prime have such massive sequence breaking histories... None of it was actually planned, its a natural bi-product of a soft lock focused design. There is no way the directors intent can anticipate all the things the player can do with the power they are given, so players inevitably find various unique ways to overcome the directors intent, and break free of the path, the sequence. This is a very different thing than removing all player agency and instead having a missile block above a super missile door purposefully placed to speed run the game in a way completely pre-set, controlled and dictated by the directors intent.
Zero mission was patronizing in that way. The only power ups the player ever actually found on their own were completely worthless, missile and etanks, and the only other option they had was skipping the entire game through mundane work arounds. (Although I did rather enjoy how in depth zm got with its shine sparking play with slopes).
Here are some of the problems with modern metroid design, a little of fusion, and zm, and how they slowly but surely slid into other m.
1. Stagnant soft lock power ups. Classic Metroid (R&D1 tem) has not introduced a new soft lock mechanic since super. Every new mechanic that has been added, has only been used for hard locks.
2. The team has gotten too used to working with the soft lock mechanics established since super. While before super released the team couldnt have predicted all the things players would do with the power afforded them, after it released that was a very different story. he teams are very aquinted with exactly all the things the player can do with the soft lock power ups and obstacles, and can now effectively design obstacles that can only be completed via what the director has pre planned... Essentially turning them into hard locks.
3. GBA resolution. I am sure the fact that you could have far less on screen on the gba than from a similar scene on the snes had quite the impact on overall design of the title. Probably the easiest and most direct comparison is the kraid fight from zm and the kraid fight from sm. Those changes were made because of the differences in visible screen real estate, the rest of the game was designed with the same restrictions in mind. Getting used to working like that may have stuck around even after those limitations were lifted.
4. Slaving the game under the story. Fusion took away the player actually finding powerups, and instead simply gave the powerup to the player in a cutscene upon reaching a specified point in the map, a data room. The only thing the player was actually allowed to find, were the most depressing powerups to find, missile packs and etanks and the like. (Everybody remembers that sinking feeling they got in their gut, when, after discovering some secret path, and going through some crazy gauntlet, they approach the end and... Instead of a chozo statue are greeted with a lame missile pack... Of course, back then there was actually the possibility of finding a new power up, super had several fully designed powerups that players could be rewarded with via exploration, things like x ray scopes and morph ball jumps, optional beams and reserve tanks... All gone for fusion and zm... along with the extra mapspace housing them that added more optional world to more believably hide the path).
Uh... Anyways, Fusion also simply gave powerups to players after defeating bosses. This was done at the expense of engaging world design, and in service to the story. This is identical to what other M does.
ZM manages to escape the direct OM powerup allusion because its a remake of the original metroid, they HAVE to have chozo statues and powerups that are actually picked up by the player. But... It suffers from a design composed entirely of hard locks, and the 'non linear aspect' is merely blatantly obvious hard locks that allow the player to skip chunks of the path, now painfully broadcasted via neon blinking signs, to the point the player no longer discovers it because they are stapled to it.
But past that, ZM has a dark, dark seed, a blood and soul sacrifice to the Satan of Metroid.
Throughout the title, there actually ARE powerups to aquire that were not in the original game. Even though getting them was just as blatantly broadcasted as the rest of the game... but still, it was something new, it was nice. UNFORTUNATELY, upon aquiring them the player could not use them, because the story said so. Metroid is a game built off of design enabled by rule changing powerups, not story. So, after a certain point in the game, the story authorizes the player the use of the powerups they collected throughout the game. Unfortunately the game is over by that point, as the only thing the player has left to do, is go a few screens up and to the right to put the 'final boss' out of its misery. The player is expected to backtrack throughout the whole game (And yes backtrack is the correct word, as none of the world design was made with those powerups in mind, and they arent used at all throughout the games progression) All that there is for the player to do is the pointless act of backtracking to a barely disguised door, to use one of the authorized powerups to pick up a missile, or tank, absolutely depressing.
These seeds planted a nefarious demon. All these aspects that were eroding away at metroid, or even past that, were the direct anti thesis of metroid design were combined, and made into an in game character. The anti metroid entity, Satan. A typo during translation named it Adam.
This Demonic entity was directly responsible for the fact the player never explored in other m, or found any power ups in other m. The player went into the rooms this entity told them to go into, and only the rooms the entity told them to go into, as the entity locked all other paths the player may have taken to express any manner of agency.
This anti metroid entity never let the player find an actual power up, missile packs and energy tank fare were all the player was allowed to pick up. When the player made it to the room the entity told them to go, he authorized a power up, and then told them where to go to use it. The entity probably also projected invisible force fields to prevent the player from making simple jumps off of some ledges, because he had to make sure they knew he controlled EVERY thing. The player wasnt free of the tyranny until the entity died, which he clearly only did to spitefully ensure the player was denied the choice to go to sector 0 for the awesome finale. Unfortunately by that point... the game was over. THe player had to go BACK into the game after it was beaten, to pointlessly backtrack and pick up the last worthless missile and etank type powerups (sound familiar?) Apparently by this point the game must have become self aware, and realized how incredibly douchy it was being, and created an easter egg boss fight as an apology. 'Hey look at this! Its that boss from super metroid! remember when you used to actually do stuff on your own? That sure was swell!'.
Thanks to Satan, the horrible degregation of metroids design was so at last so bad EVERYONE could feel it. Unfortunately, the reverse halo effect created by the horrible forced story caused many confuse it with story issues, and not that Nintendo no longer has any clue how to design metroid, or why it became iconic in the first place.
TheDinoman
Member
^That's...um, deep, man.
Though, as good as Fusion and ZM are (imo), I kinda agree they did plant some of the seeds that grew into Other M.
Though, as good as Fusion and ZM are (imo), I kinda agree they did plant some of the seeds that grew into Other M.
I remember playing this game on a pink gba with no backlight. I had one of this worm lights hooked to the top and would play it under my covers. I think I was like 17 at the time. So that gives you an idea of how super cool I was. I may pick this up I remember really enjoying it.
They were and are fantastic games, despite having some design flaws/complacancies that kept them from besting super.
With all the passion that surrounds the series, its incredibly easy to lose sight of that.
Saying a game didn't best super, is synonymous with saying a game isnt as good as a game quite often referred to, by many, many people, as the greatest designed game of all time.
The main problem for the series seems to be that those small blemishes in otherwise stellar metroid titles, have, for some reason, grown and become the whole game with other M... The primes also parallel this trend in streamlining design, to a less severe degree. And still it continues. Nintendo seems to be absolutely clueless about what people want from metroid, hence Federation troopers, and the oblivious pr attempts at smoothing its reception over.
They kept responding to fans concerns of a complete lack of metroid game design, with replies of 'Dont worry it will have a metroid story'. The disconnect was surreal.
Its a real shame. We finally have the technology to really allow us to dig into this kind of game design in 3d space... And its a lost art.
Shin Kojima
Banned
You certainly know your shit sir. This is the longest post I ever enjoyed on GAF.
Team Filler
Member
Great posts Overside, I never before really thought about that design difference (hard locks and soft locks). Much appreciated for taking the time to write that out!
I didn't expect it to be so jarring going from GBA SP to Wii U. I keep hitting up mid wall jump.
Also, for one day a week ago I could double wall jump. No idea why, but now I consistently am not hitting it on either system.
Outside of that kind of thing, and the awful, arbitrary hardlock that makes you get Power Grip, the game manages to at least exude an illusion of agency though. And that's kind of a enough for me.
Also, for one day a week ago I could double wall jump. No idea why, but now I consistently am not hitting it on either system.
I think that's one of the worst things about ZM, how patronizing they were with some of that. Things like the Power Bomb skip before Mecha and the Long Beam skip are just goofy and make the game feel a like it has some amateur design.
Outside of that kind of thing, and the awful, arbitrary hardlock that makes you get Power Grip, the game manages to at least exude an illusion of agency though. And that's kind of a enough for me.
entremet
Member
I completely forgot that the GBA revisions were mono speakers lol.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Aren't you a helpfull little poster!? I'm definitely changing this tonight when I play it again. I want that stereo sound on my game!
Also Im surprised how good this game looks on my 50" LED HDTV. I was prepared for the worse but, surprisingly, a GBA game looks better than I thought would look like.
Alex_Mexico
Member
I didn't expect it to be so jarring going from GBA SP to Wii U. I keep hitting up mid wall jump.
Also, for one day a week ago I could double wall jump. No idea why, but now I consistently am not hitting it on either system.
You are using the Dpad right? The WiiU analog stick for this game sucks!
This game makes me wish I could play with my Dualshock 4. Hands down the best controller for 2D sidescrollers because of the superior D-pad and most most importantly, the placement of the face buttons and D-pad. As much as I like the WiiU Pro Controller's D-pad it's placement and the face buttons below the sticks makes it an awkward grip to use for these games that dont use the sticks at all.
I felt the same way after my first play through of Fusion, but after playing it again I loved it. Fusion is one of the very few games I have gotten 100% completion on.
Super is still the best though.
Super Metroid. Zero Mission ended up emulating a lot of the design of Super Metroid, to the point where they essentially retconned the original Metroid into being a Super Metroid clone. You'll appreciate those changes and nods if you play Super first. Zero is also a little more complicated and advanced when it comes to the controls, and you stand little chance of getting 100% if it's your first Metroid.
...give the series to someone else, Nintendo. Seriously. They're going out of their way to fuck things up at this point.
I tried the DS4 out for Super Metroid once, believing that it would work well for the reasons you mentioned, and I immediately went back to the U Pro. The DS4 D-pad just feels cheap and unsatisfying compared to the gamepad/Pro D-pads, which I consider to be maybe the best I've ever used.
The button placement is mainly an issue of Pro's reverse orientation; X/A are closest to the thumb's resting position, while on a normal controller Y/B would be. If you set X/A as the Y/B buttons, I think the U pro is much more comfortable. Imagine playing an SNES game and using X and A to shoot and jump; those are the least comfortable and hardest to reach buttons on the diamond. On the U Pro, it's the opposite.
I don't have an issue with it on the gamepad, though. I think the amount of reach to hit Y is far higher on the Pro.
If you hated Fusion then you may not like this one either. It's very similar to Fusion in terms of having a more aggressive, fast feel with less emphasis on atmosphere. The visuals are a little more animated, almost like a modern digital comic, which I personally don't like very much, and the soundtrack isn't nearly as diverse or impressive as Super's was. That said, Kenji Yamamoto did the soundtrack for this game (he didn't compose Fusion), so there's at least that.
I don't think it's as memorable or emotionally deep as Super Metroid is, but it is more fun in a simple, fast paced shooter kind of way. It has the most advanced controls and toughest challenge of any classic Metroid. You can really tell that they made this specifically for the people who had been playing Metroid for 18 years. Getting all the items will require mastering every technique Samus ever had up until that point.
Linkstrikesback
Member
So NOA decides to literally put Zero Mission nowhere whatsoever on the front page of the e-shop, happy 30th Anniversary, Metroid!
Got it.
Now no more of this Other M stuff, people need to be discussing the greatness that is Zero Mission.
Was reaalllllyyyy on point...
Yeah, even just with the Dpad. I love the Wii U Dpad, think it's great. But the extra width and I guess sensitivity is making it hard to go left-right etc quickly without touching up.
TheGamingBox
Banned
went back and got 100%
Well I think my problem is I want this to be the masterpiece that super metroid is and it just isn't. I can appreciate that it's a retelling of the original NES game though and I'll finish my play through.
Reading everyone's comments to my earlier question, you're all correct.
I'll end my post by asking the eternal question: why can't we get a modern 2D metroid inspired by Super Metroid, the best game in the series? It seems like such a simple concept. Instead we get the abomination that was Other M. I'll never understand this nonsense.
Reading everyone's comments to my earlier question, you're all correct.
I'll end my post by asking the eternal question: why can't we get a modern 2D metroid inspired by Super Metroid, the best game in the series? It seems like such a simple concept. Instead we get the abomination that was Other M. I'll never understand this nonsense.
wild wild rice
Member
Playing this game for the first time. This opening where the worm creature keeps reappearing and nearly killing you while you slowly get better at playing and collect upgrades...whew. Awesome.
Were there any "chase" bosses similar to this and SA-X in the Prime games? Ones that keep reappearing before you can properly destroy them. Maybe Ridley in Prime 3?
I forget.
Edit: I suppose Dark Samus counts.
Were there any "chase" bosses similar to this and SA-X in the Prime games? Ones that keep reappearing before you can properly destroy them. Maybe Ridley in Prime 3?
I forget.
Edit: I suppose Dark Samus counts.