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Microsoft secretly gave the NSA, CIA, FBI access to Skype, Outlook, Skydrive

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Zeke

Member
This continuous stream of new information has to wake up the American people.

I can't believe we've let it go this far as a country.

This is truly a surveillance state now.
sadly it won't people don't want to mess up their little bubbles they have made for themselves even if it means doing some actual good. Instead they fall back onto the "if you have nothing to hide you have no reason to be alarmed" Its a disgusting attitude that has slowly led us to where we are now. Even if you are concerned with whats going on and try to inform other people you will more than likely just be written off as a conspiracy loon and ostracized. People saying you should not blame MS because they are just complying with the law are full of it. Big companies like MS, Google and FB should the ones on the front lines helping to fight this kind of disgusting erosion of rights. The multi million/billion dollar companies are the ones that have the resources and finances to fight back but they won't they will happily bend over further and further.
They won't. Adams and his people fought back against much less; where are the modern day Patriots?
Being labeled as treasonous dogs that should be put to death doesn't help when you have media sources drilling it into peoples heads so that they regurgitate all the filth they hear.
 
I'm still not sure how this PRISM stuff is news. They were surely already accessing info. The Patriot Act and ensuing legislation just made it more legal.

You should assume that everything that you send via web or cell tech will be read, seen, shared, etc. by someone somewhere, whether it be a hacker, a FB or Twitter share, or some NSA dataminer. Not saying it's good, but saying it's reality.
 

jimi_dini

Member
So when Obama said that "no one is listening to your phone calls", he wasn't including video conversations on Skype?

He wasn't lying.

no one
Pronoun
No person; not a single person.
doesn't include a computer that is making backups of your phone calls somewhere, including software that is making text out of your calls, so that it's easily searchable

I wish I was kidding...
 

Jado

Banned
If you have nothing to hide why don't you install cameras in your house directly connected to government agencies and corporations so that they can easily spy on you?
Or have you already ordered the Xbone?

This is actually a really good idea. Every person who doesn't object to this should have no problem with a free home-wide camera installation package with constant online video feeds of their bedrooms and bathrooms that are stored directly to government servers. If you're okay with the collection of all your private emails, phone calls, photos, video and audio chats, online activity, etc., then this is literally no different.

I question how much they can gather, I imagine it's mainly when explicitly video chatting or whatever, but better safe than sorry. Simply not having the camera/mic there at all is the most surefire way of avoiding this afterall.

without exaggeration, it's getting to the point where they will be able to collect everything from everyone who's online in the near future. This is the sort of stuff that got people labeled as idiot conspiracy nuts less than a year ago.
 

Flek

Banned
well i have a question - so data encryption is going to be a thing now but can the goverment actually see who sends how mouch encrypted data?

so lets say iam in china and want to surf some for forbidden sites and mail some budies could the goverment see that iam sending 80% encrypted data while my neighbour is only sending like 12%!?

Also @topic
totally freaky and fucked up i don't understand why people are not on the street protesting.

edit : @nothing to hide idiots educate yourself

Here are the answers to this question that I have settled upon over time:

Some people do have something to hide, but not something that the government ought to gain the power to reveal. People hide many things from even their closest friends and family: the fact that they are gay, the fact that they are sick, the fact that they are pregnant, the fact that they are in love with someone else. Though your private life may be especially straightforward, that should not lead you to support policies that would intrude on the more complicated lives of others. There's a reason we call it private life.

You may not have anything to hide, but the government may think you do. One word: errors. If we allow the government to start looking over our shoulders just in case we might be involved in wrongdoing-mistakes will be made. You may not think you have anything to hide, but still might end up in the crosshairs of a government investigation, or entered into some government database, or worse. The experience with terrorist watch lists over the past 10 years has shown that the government is highly prone to errors, and tends to be sloppily overinclusive in those it decides to flag as possibly dangerous.

Are you sure you have nothing to hide? As I said in this 2006 piece, there are a lot of laws on the books-a lot of very complicated laws on the books-and prosecutors and the police have a lot of discretion to interpret those laws. And if they decide to declare you public enemy #1, and they have the ability to go through your life with a fine-tooth comb because your privacy has been destroyed, they will find something you'll wish you could hide. Why might the government go after you? The answers can involve muddy combinations of things such as abuse of power, mindless bureaucratic prosecutorial careerism, and political retaliation. On this point a quotation attributed to Cardinal Richelieu is often invoked: "Give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, and I'll find something in them to hang him by."

Everybody hides many things even though they're not wrong. The ultimate example is the fact that most people don't want to be seen naked in public. Nudity also makes a good metaphor for a whole category of privacy concerns: just because we want to keep things private doesn't mean we've done anything wrong. And, it can be hard to give rational reasons why we feel that way-even those of us who feel most comfortable with our bodies. True, some people may be perfectly happy posting nude pictures of themselves online, but other people do not like to show even a bare ankle-and they should have that right. In the same way, there may not be anything particularly embarrassing about other details of our lives-but they are our details. The list of all the groceries you have purchased in the past year may contain nothing damaging, but you might not want a stranger looking over that either, because of that same difficult-to-articulate feeling that it would just be, somehow, invasive, and none of their damned business. As Bruce Schneier aptly sums it up, "we do nothing wrong when we sing in the shower."
You may not care about hiding it, but you may still be discriminated against because of it. As I discussed recently in this post about data mining, people are often denied benefits or given worse deals because some company decides that some behavior-entirely innocent and legal-might suggest you are a poor risk. For example, credit card companies sometimes lower a customer's credit limit based on the repayment history of the other customers of stores where a person shops.

Privacy is about much broader values than just "hiding things." Although many people will want more specific answers to the question such as the above, ultimately the fullest retort to the "nothing to hide" impulse is a richer philosophical defense of privacy that articulates its importance to human life-the human need for a refuge from the eye of the community, and from the self-monitoring that living with others entails; the need for space in which to play and to try out new ideas, identities, and behaviors, without lasting consequences; and the importance of maintaining the balance of power between individuals and the state.
 
Fair enough but that's where is becomes a matter of degrees of paranoia and how much you trust your government. In the good old days people just thought they were being followed, spied on in their homes and watched by black helicopters. Now it's become electronic but that's just a byproducts of everything becoming more digital and out there on the internet. People voluntarily post tonnes and tonnes of personal info on sites like Facebook every day and the government is going to pull from that data if they have cause.

The paranoia doesn't come from the fact that we learn that they government can spy on us, because they always could if they wanted to, it's about whether they are spying on everyone or only those that warrant suspicion of more than a couple of google searches which, as you say, are also monitored.

Well, perhaps I am a bit paranoid, but it's only because I've seen it happen. I've talked about this here before, but friend of mine several years ago was the target of a Secret Service investigation for something she posted on her blog. I can't remember exactly the terms she used, but it was in a post about Bush, and she said something like 'Well, I sure hope his god strikes him down!'

She only found out after they concluded their investigation, decided she wasn't a threat, and told her about it. They said they went through all of her online correspondence. Which, hilariously enough included several thousand pages of incredibly explicit fanfiction. She was a very popular fanfiction writer. A 'BNF' as they call it. She found the whole situation a bit creepy, but incredibly amusing in hindsight.

But basically, my point is that anyone can innocently enough become a target of similar investigations due to fairly innocuous blog posts or google searches or what-have-you. I once wrote something that focused on recovery from captivity and torture. I once wrote for an ARG from the point of view of a character who was slowly going insane and burning things down. I once wrote for an ARG about bioengineering and human augmentation. Because I researched in those areas, or had email correspondence in game where I was in character does that mean I am a suspect?
 

GK86

Homeland Security Fail
This is getting really ridiculous. Hopefully the American people, and the world at large, does something about it.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Yeah I'm not doubting any tinfoil hat stuff without proof anymore. The government has zero credibility to assume that they are not doing something evil and corrupt.

Also, I have put off cancelling my xbone pre-order just in case, but fuck it. Cancelled.
 

charsace

Member
Pretty crazy that tinfoil hat conspiracists were actually proven right.

I mean holy shit.

How was this ever a tinfoil hat? I never understood how people could be naive enough to think governments wouldn't take advantage of all the connections people have to technology in today's society.

The Unabomber was a crazy motherfucker, but he was right in saying the government was watching people through technology.

Anyone that thinks this only happens in the US is just fooling themselves. Anyone that thinks MS is the only company involved is crazy.
 

maeh2k

Member
According to the statements from both MS and the NSA, those measures are for "court-ordered surveillance". All those companies have to comply there. Don't believe that you're better off with any other mail provider or messenger.

There has so far been no evidence that any of those companies give the NSA full access to all user data.
 

jimi_dini

Member
According to the statements from both MS and the NSA, those measures are for "court-ordered surveillance". All those companies have to comply there. Don't believe that you're better off with any other mail provider or messenger.

Hint: there are mail providers outside of US. And there are also mail providers outside of EU. I just changed to one of those a few days ago.

There has so far been no evidence that any of those companies give the NSA full access to all user data.

That's what PRISM is actually all about. It wouldn't make sense to spy on just a few people. They would miss out on so many terrorists then.

LOL.

XBone going all 1984 Viewscreen on us.

DId you know that Xbone is as powerful as 1444 360s?
Because 1444 * 360 = 519840.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
facebook_-201016837f1und.jpg
 

whitehawk

Banned
This is why I'm skeptical of cloud services for personal documents. I don't care for things lived saved game files, but offline programs are looking better and better to me.

...I do have facebook though. I can't say I use it much though, just have it now so people can contact me if needed, and I get an email.

edit: I do live in Canada though. However our government could be doing similar things, who knows.
 
Mainstream Media: "Doesn't matter because Justin Beiber pee'd in a bucket!"

In all reality this is horrible and America is continuing to go down the very dark road of "If you didn't do anything wrong then you have nothing to fear, right?!". It's a path many nations have walked before and the outcomes are never good.

Oh, and the "You can trust Government to do what is right and never abuse their power!" crowd: Have the read a history book about the shady shit this Government has done??

Ugh.
 
Convenient they don't post the docs. Considering the guardian has withheld certain documents (the minimization procedures) in the past and they are dripping these stories out and only later do people find out the orginial stories weren't painting a full picture

This article and the guardian's writing style intentionally confuses the metadata collection with the content collection and the phone record collect. All three are different things.
This article talks about the the cooperation between Microsoft and the NSA it doesn't seem to reveal anything new. These revelations are also how the NSA would be able to get access to a known terrorist or criminals. This is basically describing the very thing that's in the neogaf TOS

D. We reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you), typically in (but not limited to) the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.

or in the outlook TOS

5.2. Does Microsoft disclose my personal information outside of Microsoft? You consent and agree that Microsoft may access, disclose, or preserve information associated with your use of the services, including (without limitation) your personal information and content, or information that Microsoft acquires about you through your use of the services (such as IP address or other third-party information) when Microsoft forms a good faith belief that doing so is necessary (a) to comply with applicable law or to respond to legal process from competent authorities; (b) to enforce this agreement or protect the rights or property of Microsoft or our customers; or (c) to help prevent a loss of life or serious physical injury to anyone.

Outlook had encryption so they helped the NSA crack it so when they get a request the process is much smoother. Same thing with Skype. This isn't saying they have the right to collect every bit of data this tech would enable them to collect.

There DOES need to be more openness on how the NSA and FBI are requesting this information. The FISA court is too opaque and its making law on what passes 4th amendment muster. That's not good. This leak? Reveals cooperation to make the NSA's job easier. And EU corporations aren't cooperating with their nations?

My problem isn't with these programs but rather how wide they are casting the net. Are these people legitimate targets? That's what courts are supposed to determine and thats were I think the reform minded anger should be are the courts and safeguards not enough. Not are their ability but at the tactics. That's not greenwald's desire though, he wants an end to US dominance in everything.

There has so far been no evidence that any of those companies give the NSA full access to all user data.

BUT THEY COULD!!!

Hint: there are mail providers outside of US. And there are also mail providers outside of EU. I just changed to one of those a few days ago.

Hint: the EU does the same thing. Or asked the NSA to do it.
 

Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
Insert here obvious Kinect joke.

Seriously with all this stuff going on, the last thing I want is a government camera pointed at me 24/7.
 

jimi_dini

Member
Hint: the EU does the same thing. Or asked the NSA to do it.

I already said that.

Hint: there are mail providers outside of US. And there are also mail providers outside of EU. I just changed to one of those a few days ago.

Why should I trust the United States of Europe? No, thank you.

btw. it's quite strange that google returns all sorts of pseudo Asian e-mail providers. Providers that appear to be Japanese for example, but when you check the servers, you will notice that they are located elsewhere *cough* US *cough*
 
Well, perhaps I am a bit paranoid, but it's only because I've seen it happen. I've talked about this here before, but friend of mine several years ago was the target of a Secret Service investigation for something she posted on her blog. I can't remember exactly the terms she used, but it was in a post about Bush, and she said something like 'Well, I sure hope his god strikes him down!'

She only found out after they concluded their investigation, decided she wasn't a threat, and told her about it. They said they went through all of her online correspondence. Which, hilariously enough included several thousand pages of incredibly explicit fanfiction. She was a very popular fanfiction writer. A 'BNF' as they call it. She found the whole situation a bit creepy, but incredibly amusing in hindsight.

But basically, my point is that anyone can innocently enough become a target of similar investigations due to fairly innocuous blog posts or google searches or what-have-you. I once wrote something that focused on recovery from captivity and torture. I once wrote for an ARG from the point of view of a character who was slowly going insane and burning things down. I once wrote for an ARG about bioengineering and human augmentation. Because I researched in those areas, or had email correspondence in game where I was in character does that mean I am a suspect?

So she did something that tipped some flags and they investigated? This sounds like normal police work. Not saying she was a threat but their job is to make sure it wasn't anything more than a joke or non-serious phrase

There does need to be oversights to prevent people from false alarms. Such as using just using certain words. But the NSA has a lot of processing power. I'm sure they can devise better algorithms. We should demand as much.
 

Madness

Member
Change we can believe in... I feel Americans are in for a rude awakening at the scale of their rights being abused like this. Think about all those emails, calls, texts, video calls being collected and shared without your consent or without a legal subpoena.

I just deleted Skype off of my computer. And downloaded a new email client for my ISP email. Fuck Microsoft.
 

Espada

Member
Holy crap, the more I read the worse it got. I don't understand why these flagrant violations of privacy are being carried out (and gleefully expanded at that). Is it simply because they can?

If we're too permissive about this stuff, we're going to down an ugly road. This is scary as hell. The Kinect 2 being made and marketed by a company legally obligated to share all the data it collects should scare the shit out of anyone.
 
Messed up to the extreme....never been a better time for the niche OS's and relevant alternative programs to stand up as loudly as they can and identify themselves on the other, right side of history in terms of this debacle.

May still be awhile yet before anything really grows to approaching mainstream prominence, but if nothing else I should think a wave of savvy folks is incoming to bolster development considering what other recourse do they have?
 

kehs

Banned
Change we can believe in... I feel Americans are in for a rude awakening at the scale of their rights being abused like this. Think about all those emails, calls, texts, video calls being collected and shared without your consent or without a legal subpoena.

I just deleted Skype off of my computer. And downloaded a new email client for my ISP email. Fuck Microsoft.

You're ISP has the same legal obligation to turn over your datas.
 

Broseybrose

Member
People on this forum have laughed at my belief in certain conspiracies, this being one of them. While its still a horrible truth that us Americans have to deal with, its kinda nice to see people who have been vocal about this all along, especially in the face of skepticism, vindicated.

Finally we can all get on the same page about our privacy and other freedoms being treated in a manner that is almost laughable, were it not so despicable, by whoever or whatever really pulls the strings in our government.
 

Madness

Member
You're ISP has the same legal obligation to turn over your datas.

I'm in Canada. My ISP has no legal obligation to turn over my data to the NSA. It's probably collected by CSIS but I mean, this is a US software company willfully giving the information to a foreign government in my eyes.
 
The Kinect 2 being made and marketed by a company legally obligated to share all the data it collects should scare the shit out of anyone.

This isn't true but its ALWAYS been true that if you give data to any third party the government can get a warrant to search it (with probably cause)

The questions is what makes them legally obligated

People on this forum have laughed at my belief in certain conspiracies, this being one of them. While its still a horrible truth that us Americans have to deal with, its kinda nice to see people who have been vocal about this all along, especially in the face of skepticism, vindicated.

Where are conspiracy theorists vindicated?

Nobody has said the NSA isn't spying. This doesn't say the NSA is recording all calls, this doesn't say all skype coversations are recorded. This details cooperation between service providers and the NSA.
 
This is actually a really good idea. Every person who doesn't object to this should have no problem with a free home-wide camera installation package with constant online video feeds of their bedrooms and bathrooms that are stored directly to government servers. If you're okay with the collection of all your private emails, phone calls, photos, video and audio chats, online activity, etc., then this is literally no different.



without exaggeration, it's getting to the point where they will be able to collect everything from everyone who's online in the near future. This is the sort of stuff that got people labeled as idiot conspiracy nuts less than a year ago.
Eh, no.

I wouldn't be put off using products from any of the companies the government used to spy because chances of my information being seen by an actual person are slim. Sure, my emails and various other information may be backed up on a server somewhere. It might even be combed over for information by some algorithm. But if I'm not a person of interest or I don't have anything to hide then I shouldn't be affected.

Now, do I agree with what they do? No. But they're doing it against our will anyway, so I'm not about to forego emails or using smartphones. Doesn't mean I would voluntarily install 24 hour surveillance in my home just because I accept the reality that any inevitable spying on me probably won't be seen.

And it's crazy to me that people would see Kinect as such a big deal when nearly everybody already uses smartphones with 2 cameras a mic, browsing data, email, contacts, you name it.
 
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