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Microsoft secretly gave the NSA, CIA, FBI access to Skype, Outlook, Skydrive

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H

Half and half

Member
Telstra signed deal that would have allowed US spying

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/12/telstra-deal-america-government-spying

Telstra agreed to store information on communications between America and other countries in a contract with the US government which meant it could potentially spy on the contents.

The agreement was signed in 2001 between the telecommunications company – which was at the time half-owned by the Australian government – and its subsidiary Reach, as well as the FBI and the US Department of Justice (DOJ).

The agreement, first reported by Crikey who obtained the documents, gave the US government permission to store "domestic communications" – with the possibility of using them for spying – using the underwater cables owned by Reach.

Domestic communications were defined in the agreement as communications within the US but could also extend to communications which "originate or terminate" in America, meaning Australian communications with America could have potentially been subject to the agreement.
Click to expand...
 
K

Kajigger

Member
Dapperk said:
Because whether or not you think it relates to you it sets a bad precedent.

It's like hearing your neighbor got robbed and not caring cause it wasn't your house.
Click to expand...

But I wouldn't care if my neighbor got robbed.

It's just worrying about something that's done.
 
S

SnakeSlashRO

Banned
Kajigger said:
But I wouldn't care if my neighbor got robbed.

It's just worrying about something that's done.
Click to expand...

image.php
 
S

Social

Member
This sucks, Between Microsoft and Google I always looked upon Microsoft as the lesser of two evils in regards to privacy and sharing our shit with the government.

Guess I was wrong, Microsoft seems even worse :(
 
I

Iced_Eagle

Member
Microsoft just put out a statement about this.

Source: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2013/Jul13/07-11statement.aspx

In response to an article in the Guardian on July 11, Microsoft issued the following statement:


“We have clear principles which guide the response across our entire company to government demands for customer information for both law enforcement and national security issues.


First, we take our commitments to our customers and to compliance with applicable law very seriously, so we provide customer data only in response to legal processes. Second, our compliance team examines all demands very closely, and we reject them if we believe they aren’t valid. Third, we only ever comply with orders about specific accounts or identifiers, and we would not respond to the kind of blanket orders discussed in the press over the past few weeks, as the volumes documented in our most recent disclosure clearly illustrate. To be clear, Microsoft does not provide any government with blanket or direct access to SkyDrive, Outlook.com, Skype or any Microsoft product.


Finally when we upgrade or update products legal obligations may in some circumstances require that we maintain the ability to provide information in response to a law enforcement or national security request. There are aspects of this debate that we wish we were able to discuss more freely. That’s why we’ve argued for additional transparency that would help everyone understand and debate these important issues.”
Click to expand...
 
Mikey Jr.

Mikey Jr.

Member
Wow, just saw this.

Not only is Kinect coming with every Xbox, the Kinect HAS to be on. And also, it has Skype built right into the thing.

US Government is probably salivating right now, haha.
 
L

leadbelly

Banned
Iced_Eagle said:
Microsoft just put out a statement about this.

Source: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2013/Jul13/07-11statement.aspx
Click to expand...

I really don't see the point in reading Microsoft's statement. The documents released claim the Prism programme gives them 'direct access' to their servers. From what I was reading, they basically do it without companies like Microsoft overseeing it. That way they can deny any responsibility for it.

As I said before, it would be unlikely they would admit to this as it could have serious repercussions for that company. Imagine the lawsuits. lol
 
M

maeh2k

Member
Mikey Jr. said:
Wow, just saw this.

Not only is Kinect coming with every Xbox, the Kinect HAS to be on. And also, it has Skype built right into the thing.

US Government is probably salivating right now, haha.
Click to expand...

Unlike all the mentioned services, Kinect is not inherently online, and now even the Xbox One doesn't have to be online.

Microsoft clearly laid out the privacy options for the new Kinect and clearly stated that it wouldn't upload personal data. If there's no data on the servers, there's nothing the NSA can do about it. If, hypothetically, at any point the Xbox would upload a video or audio stream to the internet for no reason, someone would notice it immediately. It's just not going to happen.

Also, I'm pretty sure the government doesn't give a shit about the Xbox. With services like Facebook, Skype, Outlook.com, and Gmail, you get data from hundreds of millions of users for each service. If you look at phones, Android is already on 900+ million devices selling at 500+ million devices per year. Carriers and Google get access to tons of meta data, location data, contacts, ... all stored somewhere in the cloud.
By comparison, the Xbox One will maybe sell three million units this year and there's barely any relevant information stored in the cloud.
 
P

pompidu

Member
maeh2k said:
Unlike all the mentioned services, Kinect is not inherently online, and now even the Xbox One doesn't have to be online.

Microsoft clearly laid out the privacy options for the new Kinect and clearly stated that it wouldn't upload personal data. If there's no data on the servers, there's nothing the NSA can do about it. If, hypothetically, at any point the Xbox would upload a video or audio stream to the internet for no reason, someone would notice it immediately. It's just not going to happen.

Also, I'm pretty sure the government doesn't give a shit about the Xbox. With services like Facebook, Skype, Outlook.com, and Gmail, you get data from hundreds of millions of users for each service. If you look at phones, Android is already on 900+ million devices selling at 500+ million devices per year. Carriers and Google get access to tons of meta data, location data, contacts, ... all stored somewhere in the cloud.
By comparison, the Xbox One will maybe sell three million units this year and there's barely any relevant information stored in the cloud.
Click to expand...

Yet Microsoft has conveniently forgot to tell us that they have been giving the nsa full access to their servers for a while now. I'm even more sure that they have somewhere in their TOS in their software that says they don't share private information, which we know is false.

Skype's Privacy Policy which says nothing about direct access to servers but does vaguely state that information can be obtained by legal order. I don't think the NSA can legally force MS to open a backdoor to their server's but they surely just let them in regardless.
3. OUR DISCLOSURE OF YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION

Except as provided below, Skype will not sell, rent, trade or otherwise transfer any personal and/or traffic data or communications content outside of Microsoft and its controlled subsidiaries and affiliates without your explicit permission, unless it is obliged to do so under applicable laws or by order of the competent authorities. Please note that information that you voluntarily make public in your user profile, or which you disclose on forums, discussions boards or by posting comments will be publicly available and viewable by others.
Click to expand...
 
W

Walshicus

Member
BramVD said:
This sucks, Between Microsoft and Google I always looked upon Microsoft as the lesser of two evils in regards to privacy and sharing our shit with the government.

Guess I was wrong, Microsoft seems even worse :(
Click to expand...

I don't think you can really fault Microsoft, Google, Apple or any of the other companies who have been forced to provide the Americans with data. Blame the American government.
 
P

pompidu

Member
Sir Fragula said:
I don't think you can really fault Microsoft, Google, Apple or any of the other companies who have been forced to provide the Americans with data. Blame the American government.
Click to expand...

I put most of the blame on the government but giving a backdoor to their servers so they can grab anything, including sensitive information from business' is pretty fucked up on MS' part.
 
L

linsivvi

Member
People blaming Microsoft (or Google) are barking up the wrong tree.

Xbone is terrible and all that, but this is not the tech companies fault if they have to legally comply.
 
F

Foolworm

Member
Do people honestly not remember the Cold War and the paranoia that went with it? It sounds like a new generation waking up to the fact that the world, perhaps, is not as black and white as it seems.

Always remember that the internet, while purporting to be the ultimate 'open and free' tool, is in reality funneled through a cabal of tightly controlled, extremely selective and immensely powerful companies. This goes for any country I care to name. It is about time that people learnt a bit of caution on the internet - it's not like you can lose all sense of restraint simply because you are hiding behind a username and avatar.
 
M

maeh2k

Member
pompidu said:
Yet Microsoft has conveniently forgot to tell us that they have been giving the nsa full access to their servers for a while now. I'm even more sure that they have somewhere in their TOS in their software that says they don't share private information, which we know is false.

Skype's Privacy Policy which says nothing about direct access to servers but does vaguely state that information can be obtained by legal order. I don't think the NSA can legally force MS to open a backdoor to their server's but they surely just let them in regardless.
Click to expand...

All those companies aren't just giving the NSA access for no reason. There's surely some legal obligation: "There are aspects of this debate that we wish we were able to discuss more freely. That's why we've argued for additional transparency that would help everyone understand and debate these important issues.".

But like I said, my main argument with regards to Kinect is, that there isn't really anything of importance stored on any servers. Unlike Skype, Kinect works offline, so they can't simply let the NSA access any servers. Audio and video feeds would certainly be noticed.
 
P

pompidu

Member
maeh2k said:
All those companies aren't just giving the NSA access for no reason. There's surely some legal obligation: "There are aspects of this debate that we wish we were able to discuss more freely. That's why we've argued for additional transparency that would help everyone understand and debate these important issues.".

But like I said, my main argument with regards to Kinect is, that there isn't really anything of importance stored on any servers. Unlike Skype, Kinect works offline, so they can't simply let the NSA access any servers. Audio and video feeds would certainly be noticed.
Click to expand...

So NSA is only forcing Microsoft to have access to their servers and not Facebook or Google?? Yeah I'm not buying that. Microsoft is just opening the gates for them willingly.

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Facebook-Google-Deny-Giving-NSA-Direct-Access-124559
 
W

Walshicus

Member
pompidu said:
So NSA is only forcing Microsoft to have access to their servers and not Facebook or Google?? Yeah I'm not buying that.

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Facebook-Google-Deny-Giving-NSA-Direct-Access-124559
Click to expand...

Pretty much in line with Microsoft's commentary on this too.


At the end of the day you just have to look at who's benefiting from this. What do the tech companies get? A lot of bad PR when it inevitably leaked. What does the US government get? A shit tonne of data they use (hopefully!) for security purposes.
 
S

snap0212

Member
Sir Fragula said:
I don't think you can really fault Microsoft, Google, Apple or any of the other companies who have been forced to provide the Americans with data. Blame the American government.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't blame them for handing over the data, but I bane them for their "privacy first" attitude they use in their marketing, especially Microsoft. They all should have a big fat disclaimer telling their users that they have to share data when they're asked to and that it happens. Said thing should be the first information upon signing up and it should be bolded and big enough so everyone can see it. The fact that they're forced to do something is something I can accept. The fact that they're doing everything to hide that fact is atrocious.
 
B

Brera

Banned
I don't understand why any of this is a surprise!

It's always been this way, heard of echelon? It's not even a secret.
 
B

BowieZ

Banned
Does anyone else get the urge to make a series of calls, texts and emails pretending to plot against America, just to see if they're really watching you?

I mean, is there a law against a conspiratorial hoax committed in private?
 
P

pompidu

Member
Sir Fragula said:
Pretty much in line with Microsoft's commentary on this too.


At the end of the day you just have to look at who's benefiting from this. What do the tech companies get? A lot of bad PR when it inevitably leaked. What does the US government get? A shit tonne of data they use (hopefully!) for security purposes.
Click to expand...

True but they are being ambiguous and not giving us the full story.

http://techland.time.com/2013/07/12/microsofts-response-to-nsa-backdoor-allegations-its-not-true-its-also-complicated-we-cant-explain-it-but-we-wish-we-could/

If what they say is infact true and the NSA does not have direct access to their servers, they are doing a wonderful job of giving a vague and confusing statement regarding it.
 
R

ralexand

100% logic failure rate
shinobi602 said:
And people still think being wary about Kinect is paranoia?
Click to expand...

Yes and complete ignorance. Its easy to tell when the camera is on. Microsoft would not risk the shitstorm of someone discovering that camera is on when the console is off. Stop the stupid FUD.
 
SJRB

SJRB

Gold Member
ralexand said:
Yes and complete ignorance. Its easy to tell when the camera is on. Microsoft would not risk the shitstorm of someone discovering that camera is on when the console is off. Stop the stupid FUD.
Click to expand...

...but the Kinect device IS always on, even if the Xbox itself is off.
 
M

maeh2k

Member
pompidu said:
So NSA is only forcing Microsoft to have access to their servers and not Facebook or Google?? Yeah I'm not buying that. Microsoft is just opening the gates for them willingly.

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Facebook-Google-Deny-Giving-NSA-Direct-Access-124559
Click to expand...

The fact that Google and Facebook haven't been named in the latest article, which only covered some slides about Microsoft's involvement, doesn't actually tell you anything about the NSA's access to their data. Microsoft's comments over the course of that whole affair are very much in line with Google's.

Previous slides have also mentioned a number of other companies -- among them Google and Facebook -- as part of PRISM. If you deem the latest Microsoft leaks credible, then you also have consider those previous leaks credible.
 
B

Brera

Banned
Escape Goat said:
Government eavesdropping and private companies being complicit/coerced in the eavesdropping are very different.
Click to expand...

It's the same thing.

Companies have always handed shit over. How do you think IP addresses are traced by the cops? That shit is handed over!
 
C

crozier

Member
PairOfFilthySocks said:
lol, I wonder how long MS can go until they remove the always on requirement for the Kinect in the X1.
Click to expand...
I expect this to happen in the near future. Whether you want to turn it on with your voice or manually should be a choice. Enough damage has been done and enough people are demanding it that they have little choice in the matter at this point.
 
M

Mariolee

Member
BowieZ said:
Does anyone else get the urge to make a series of calls, texts and emails pretending to plot against America, just to see if they're really watching you?

I mean, is there a law against a conspiratorial hoax committed in private?
Click to expand...

After that story about that kid making [sarcastic] threats against killing a bunch of kids and getting put in jail with $500,000 bail, I'd wait for someone else to.

SJRB said:
The overall lack of outrage about the entire PRISM scandal is nothing short of mindblowing. It's amazing to see people getting invaded in their most intimate privacy and then shrugging it off like it's no big deal. There is some random schmuck sitting in a cubicle somewhere reading your emails, your text messages, listening to your phonecalls, watching your Skype videos and god knows what else. All for the sake of "safety and security".


We should talk more on how to circumvent this. Obviously the first step is to stop using the programs, but if the receiving party is still using outlook, gmail and the likes you're still locked in.

So then what? Third party email client, encrypted and through proxy? Just to send an email? This entire situation is insane, and I don't know what's more worrying - the gross breach of privacy by our governments or the complete apathy of the everyday man.

Edit: if this thread was about Kinect collecting metadata this thread would've had 23,528 posts by now.
Click to expand...

image.php


All joking aside, I understand what the apathetic everyman is going through. These programs are so well embedded into our lives it's a hassle to switch otherwise, especially if they have the mindset of Kajigger earlier and feel that they "have nothing to hide." This generation hasn't seen what that much power can do when it's in the hands of the government, or anyone!

To be fair, I haven't either, but my father can't stop going on about how corrupt the U.S. government is and whenever I try to play the devil's advocate, he repeats that he lived under the Indonesian government, and he's seen the paranoia of the Cold War. The reason we're so complacent is because we have no idea of the consequences of this power, and we're being ignorant asses about it.
 
P

pompidu

Member
maeh2k said:
The fact that Google and Facebook haven't been named in the latest article, which only covered some slides about Microsoft's involvement, doesn't actually tell you anything about the NSA's access to their data. Microsoft's comments over the course of that whole affair are very much in line with Google's.

Previous slides have also mentioned a number of other companies -- among them Google and Facebook -- as part of PRISM. If you deem the latest Microsoft leaks credible, then you also have consider those previous leaks credible.
Click to expand...

I can't seem to find any article stating that either Google or Facebook is allowing access to their servers as is rumored with Microsoft's SkyDrive. The rumor tells about access to SkyDrive server and Microsoft passing emails from Outlook to the NSA before it is encrypted. Again this is all not verified. It is also possible that it is happening with Google or Facebook.
 
R

ralexand

100% logic failure rate
SJRB said:
...but the Kinect device IS always on, even if the Xbox itself is off.
Click to expand...

The camera isn't always on and the mic is only on so that you it can respond to the on command which can also be disabled. Again stop with the FUD.
 
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