Microsoft's indie developer's still haven't got their September payments.

luffeN

Member
Sep 13, 2006
5,025
0
1,030
Sometimes the bigger the company the later you get your payment. I am still waiting for a payment from April. Every time I write the company it is just some standard text with "we are doing the best we can to bla".
 

Aquamarine

Member
May 24, 2012
18,812
119
500
Fucking hell. I planned on having my XBLIG revenues for next week, but now I'm fucked and I will have to borrow...

What a fucking disgrace.
Microsoft should comp you for lost time and the interest you had to pay.

There's no excuse for such a big corporation like Microsoft to screw people over like this.
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
Feb 24, 2009
45,606
2
0
Portland, OR
Like I was saying, just seems like a big unfortunate fuck up, nothing "disgusting" happening.
Except that if the devs posting here are telling the truth this shit happens more than just this one time.

This just reads as damage control for it being spread around the Internet. Hopefully now though payment will be swifter than 2-3 weeks.
 

Caja 117

Member
Apr 14, 2012
5,569
0
425
Except they are not working for your company.
A company as big as MS, yeah, they probably waiting for the last day to make the payment.
but nvm, aparently it was tech issue.

also, is not uncommon for some Companis use This business practice, It was basically the first chapter on a Cash Management certification I took like 8 years ago, basically you Collect-maintain balance - pay 3rd parties, by maintaining the balance on a especial account that pays you interest overnight, you hold the payments as much as you can so you earn more money like this.

This is perfectly legal as well, BTW, I dont longer work in the company that gave me this certification.
 

AHindD

Member
Jul 29, 2012
394
3
0
Brisbane, Australia
Like I was saying, just seems like a big unfortunate fuck up, nothing "disgusting" happening.
Its still horse shit that someone in the Ms cog didn't even realise payments weren't made. We're not talking a few days here, it's months.

And they're STILL taking a further 2 weeks to pay up, and only when news of this fuck up went public.
 

VinFTW

Member
Jul 19, 2014
5,271
0
0
Its still horse shit that someone in the Ms cog didn't even realise payments weren't made. We're not talking a few days here, it's months.

And they're STILL taking a further 2 weeks to pay up, and only when news of this fuck up went public.
If they knew it was happening, this thread wouldn't even exist, but I see we are accepting assumptions here?

I don't get why everybody's so hostile towards people who are taking a more level headed approach about this. I'm not the only one.
 

DSix

Banned
Nov 10, 2011
3,933
0
0
This is exactly where its most disgusting. Unless you can somehow get an interest free loan, you're actually losing money on their fuck up.
Thankfully I can, but still a very shitty situation to have to.
 

Jomjom

Banned
Nov 26, 2009
11,734
0
0
Los Angeles
Like I was saying, just seems like a big unfortunate fuck up, nothing "disgusting" happening.
The "disgusting" thing is that we know there have been indie devs that have written, threatened, etc. MS due to the late payments. They knew of these late payments (unless you believe these letters just never got there or whoever handles mail in their office just shreds them upon receipt), but it's only once a journalist decides to publish an article about it and it hits the public that they make this tweet.

Think about it for a moment. Is this tweet for the indie devs who this issue matters to or is this for PR to prospective buyers and the public so MS doesn't get a bad reputation? Remember they can (and certainly will or have) just send a mass email or for a more classy way, actual letters to each and every XBLIG developer with this exact message.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Oct 27, 2004
103,739
3
0
34
Nowhere, PA
Well, the point is that whether or not something is wrong is not connected to measuring the harm that it causes.

I believe this is wrong, it should be fixed, and it's scummy that they're doing this on a somewhat regular basis.

I also recognize that we're referring to a tiny, vanishingly small program that's about to be shut down and has been understaffed for three or four years now and whose target audience is (largely) hobbyist developers rather than people trying to make a career of it--so the evocations of "people won't make rent" is a bit of a mismatch with the general audience of the program, even though there are a few cases for whom that's true. In fact that's the essential tension here. There's a program and it's being managed for the bulk of its target audience, which are basically tinkerers who don't care much about the commercial side, but it's also attracted a variety of professionals doing top tier work and who need ongoing income from it. Even when MS was paying the bills, there were complaints from this tier of devs because their work wasn't being promoted effectively. So it's a long-simmering tension. This isn't ID@XBOX, anything on Xbox One, or XBLA. This is referring to XBLIG.

Again, it's still wrong, it should still be fixed, it's not right, it's not defensible. But defining the parameters of the harm is also important for approaching issues lucidly. In the same way, if Valve didn't pay TF2 item makers for a few months, that would be wrong, and something that should be solved, but it would also hardly make sense to respond with "WOW STEAM IS THE PRIMARY LIVELIHOOD FOR MOST OF THE GAME INDUSTRY AND VALVE ARE THIEVES". That doesn't mean standing against the people who deserve to be paid. It just means that one's sensitivity to wrong is in part based on the magnitude of the harm caused by the wrong.

One moral of the story here is that contracts that are insignificant to one partner in the contract and extremely important to the other partner in the contract are the most likely ones to have harms resulting from delivery issues. Clearly it's not right to treat smaller partners badly at all, of course, and I don't think anyone is going to disagree.

Setting aside this particular issue, I think in general MS has mismanaged their relationship with indies a number of times over the years. That's true for XBLIG, which has always been an also-ran for them, and their more professional-oriented programs. If any XBLIG devs can feasibly do so, they should be at least working to supplement their income with mobile and PC offerings (and maybe even PS Minis if that's possible at this point?) And then for the sort of more professional XBLIG devs who can qualify for ID@XBOX or Wii U or PS4 development, to look into that seriously if they plan on doing this stuff professionally rather than as a hobby. If not for their own sake, then at least so their games can still be played in a few years. I know the Zeboyd guys have already done this.

I hope MS fixes this soon and if they intend to end the program, they should just end it rather than dicking people around for no reason.
I guess I understand this when it's explained this way. Still, I think the "measuring the harm it causes" is much less important than the "addressing the harm it did cause", and I think reading your response you pretty much agree.

I read comments in here and it gets my blood boiling when people try to downplay an issue because it's "less important" devs or that they are not owed a terribly large sum of money. To me, knowing how difficult it is for so many to make ends meet, I know how big a difference even a small check can make.

Not that this part is addressed to you, there's no way I'm educating you on this shit. You're way too on point.
 

Jomjom

Banned
Nov 26, 2009
11,734
0
0
Los Angeles
Why is this an important bit of information?
Because Xbox 360 is on the way out, while MS is still actively trying to sell the Xbox One. You want devs to think there are no issues on the Xbone so that they continue to make games with ID@Xbox, while essentially sacrificing the 360 XBLIG where the majority of the business is not going to be done anyway. For the general public, it's better if people have a bad perception of the 360 than the One.
 
Jun 6, 2013
9,778
1
0
California
FYI

https://twitter.com/ID_Xbox/status/540275992619532288

I also just want to confirm that this was related to Xbox Live Indie Games program on Xbox 360 only, no ID@Xbox developer has received late payments.

Again, we're very sorry about this incident and it won't happen again.

-Chris
Glad you guys are on it and glad this is something that, hopefully, will be resolved for the future.

Thanks for the update Chris. Know you don't post here much but I appreciate the work you do with indies on Xbox.

There is no meaningful difference between the two.
Aside from them being completely different programs?
 

teiresias

Member
Jun 11, 2004
17,261
1
0
FYI

https://twitter.com/ID_Xbox/status/540275992619532288

I also just want to confirm that this was related to Xbox Live Indie Games program on Xbox 360 only, no ID@Xbox developer has received late payments.

Again, we're very sorry about insistencethis incident and it won't happen again.

-Chris
The devs here have confirmed this has happened repeatedly. I see no reason to believe your insistence that this is the last time.
 
Aug 27, 2007
32,910
0
0
60 days is not much to get concerned about IMO. Most companies have a 90 days policy for these kind of transactions. I sure know my company uses a 90 days policy.
You're talking about a company. A lot of these devs are individuals who may be relying on these payments for their well-being.

But hey, they should suck it up and not get paid while Microsoft enjoys increased success on their newer platform. Fuck those guys.
 

Tricktale

Neo Member
Feb 24, 2012
22
0
0
Again, we're very sorry about this incident and it won't happen again.

-Chris
This has happened many, many times before, and will continue to happen. The xblig backend is fundamentally broken, and always has been. There's been nothing but quick fixes applied for years.
 

shinobi602

Member
Sep 28, 2010
33,557
2
0
www.twitter.com
FYI

https://twitter.com/ID_Xbox/status/540275992619532288

I also just want to confirm that this was related to Xbox Live Indie Games program on Xbox 360 only, no ID@Xbox developer has received late payments.

Again, we're very sorry about this incident and it won't happen again.

-Chris
Thanks for the response Chris, but...it's a little difficult to swallow at the moment. Payments haven't been received since September, 2-3 months ago, but it was "recently learned"?

What about the multiple developers on here that have stated this isn't the first time it's happened?
 

Jomjom

Banned
Nov 26, 2009
11,734
0
0
Los Angeles
FYI

https://twitter.com/ID_Xbox/status/540275992619532288

I also just want to confirm that this was related to Xbox Live Indie Games program on Xbox 360 only, no ID@Xbox developer has received late payments.

Again, we're very sorry about this incident and it won't happen again.

-Chris
Also kind of unbelievable when we have devs here and on twitter saying they've contacted MS directly and even sent some letters threatening legal action and whatnot. Seems a bit strange that MS "recently learned" of this on the exact same day an article was written about it no? I mean if the department just "recently learned" of this from the article itself then it's not really due to technical issues, but just because MS reads game articles rather than dev emails and correspondence.
 
Aug 27, 2007
32,910
0
0
Also kind of unbelievable when we have devs here and on twitter saying they've contacted MS directly and even sent some letters threatening legal action and whatnot. Seems a bit strange that MS "just learned" of this on the exact same day an article was written about it no?
They just learned that more people were starting to get pissed about it.

But look on the bright side, no issues with the new platform! Forget the old stuff :)
 

spwolf

Member
Feb 15, 2007
16,283
0
0
If they knew it was happening, this thread wouldn't even exist, but I see we are accepting assumptions here?

I don't get why everybody's so hostile towards people who are taking a more level headed approach about this. I'm not the only one.
So Microsoft was not aware until now? This seems terribly unlikely. Do you have any proof? Or do you require proof only when it suits you?
 

JaggedSac

Member
Jan 14, 2010
17,476
2
0
What we will probably see as a result of this is the final nail in the coffin of XBLIG where no new games can be published and the capability to purchase them will be removed from the 360 store.
 

H1PSTER

Member
Feb 12, 2013
1,403
0
0
If they knew it was happening, this thread wouldn't even exist, but I see we are accepting assumptions here?

I don't get why everybody's so hostile towards people who are taking a more level headed approach about this. I'm not the only one.

I'm unbiased towards this situation but it has happened before, as many have pointed out.

If it was the first time it would be fine, mistakes happen don't they?
 

nynt9

Member
Jun 7, 2013
10,858
1
550
The devs here have confirmed this has happened repeatedly. I see no reason to believe your insistence that this is the last time.
This has happened many, many times before, and will continue to happen. The xblig backend is fundamentally broken, and always has been. There's been nothing but quick fixes applied for years.
Thanks for the response Chris, but...it's a little difficult to swallow at the moment. Payments haven't been received since September, 2-3 months ago, but it was "recently learned"?

What about the multiple developers on here that have stated this isn't the first time it's happened?
Damage control at its finest. Vague assurances, no action. Typical Microsoft PR.

edit: actually, typical PR in general, though some companies are a bit better.
 
Apr 8, 2011
10,626
0
0
They just learned that more people were starting to get pissed about it.

But look on the bright side, no issues with the new platform! Forget the old stuff :)
They shouldn't have waited for "more people." One or two people not getting paid on time is a big enough deal to look into the automatic payment platform and see if it has bugs.

Everyone systematically not getting paid on time for multiple months is incredibly nasty negligence.
 

nynt9

Member
Jun 7, 2013
10,858
1
550
They shouldn't have waited for "more people." One or two people not getting paid on time is a big enough deal to look into the automatic payment platform and see if it has bugs.

Everyone systematically not getting paid on time for multiple months is incredibly nasty negligence.
Indeed. This is a matter of class action lawsuits, but they're probably relieved based on small indie developers not having enough power to sue for significant damage.
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
Feb 24, 2009
45,606
2
0
Portland, OR
Yes, because MS wants to piss off people who will complain and generate this thread where people say "FUCK MS". That was their goal, don't you know.
But if this is the first they are hearing about this, then what about all the devs that are complaining this is not a new issue?
 

GnawtyDog

Banned
Feb 18, 2014
8,485
0
0
......................... For Microsoft, it's better if people have a good perception of the 360 and the One.
Fixed for accuracy.

Meh....even MS doesn't want the public to have a bad perception of the 360. Another edit.