• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

N.C. FORCED STERILIZATION hearings. (1) THE FUCK?! (2) How to compensate?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Devolution said:
But some kids fall through the cracks and that's apparently enough for Zombie.
Well like I said the way I looked at it wasn't based on or youth or (by and large) criminal activity, but more of demonstrated reckless behavior (having kids when they shouldn't), and draining resources, but even then I said it's a Catch 22 all up and down the issue.
 
FutureZombie said:
If sterilizing an individual produces more happiness than pain, we should do it. Since I can envision many scenarios where sterilization causes more happiness than pain, I see no issue with sterilization in and of itself. It all depends on how we go about it.

Who is honestly qualified to decide such things? What is the benchmark? You keep touting violent criminals as your trump card but who else.
 

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
FutureZombie said:
I like to think of myself as a utilitarian. I have many short comings in this because I am too weak and selfish to fully follow the philosophy, but it has made significant changes in my life.


The principle of utility states that actions or behaviors are right in so far as they promote happiness or pleasure, wrong as they tend to produce unhappiness or pain.


If sterilizing an individual produces more happiness than pain, we should do it. Since I can envision many scenarios where sterilization causes more happiness than pain, I see no issue with sterilization in and of itself. It all depends on how we go about it.



Philosophy 101 strikes again.
 
FutureZombie said:
The principle of utility states that actions or behaviors are right in so far as they promote happiness or pleasure, wrong as they tend to produce unhappiness or pain.

And if you did an opinion poll you'd probably find that most people are against the government institutionalizing a eugenics program. Thus a eugenics program would cause more unhappiness and pain than it would pleasure, since the majority of people would view it as inherently evil.


BigNastyCurve said:
What's wrong with discussing it in this thread? It's not like it happened to the OP, personally. Sheesh some of you people need to man up and be able to discuss sensitive things without /wristing.

Because derailing the thread is generally seen as something you don't do on a forum? The OP shows what is clearly an abuse of an eugenics program.

We should be discussing that, not "sure, there was a lot of abuse there, but eugenics is still awesome guys!"
 
Koomaster said:
Not sure we should go around cutting people up and altering their biology when they commit crimes or do things we at this point in time find unacceptable. That doesn't seem to be a proper response in order to deter and decrease criminal activity.

We value a diverse gene pool as well; to start paring that down based on criminal activity seems short sighted at best.
I'm pretty shocked that the conversation in this thread has actually become about the merits/demerits of MOTHERFUCKING EUGENICS (hello, Hitler) rather than what an appropriate compensation is for the men and women...mostly women...who were mostly under-age at the time and were forced into this.

I find it laughably offensive that $50,000 would be recommended, and even moreso that $20,000 was the counter-offer. These women should be given enough to live the rest of their days out in the lap of fucking luxury.

It's like...one of the only topics where you can draw upon a direct analogy with Hitler without it being a straw man. Holy shit @ the notion that it's a subject of debate in this thread. The notion of terminating someone's ability to procreate at any point in their future life runs counter to everything American and Western culture proper stands for.
 

DDayton

(more a nerd than a geek)
I'm rather startled that there are so many folks that don't know about the horrific history of eugenics in the USA and the western world. WWII slowed it down and stopped the brunt of it, somewhat.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Devolution said:
Who is honestly qualified to decide such things? What is the benchmark? You keep touting violent criminals as your trump card but who else.
Exactly the problem. Sterilization can be kind of a nice idea in theory (optimizing of society and all that) but it fails because it would have to be put under the charge of a benevolent and omniscient arbiter, which is never ever going to exist.
 
Dreams-Visions said:
I'm pretty shocked that the conversation in this thread has actually become about the merits/demerits of MOTHERFUCKING EUGENICS (hello, Hitler) rather than what an appropriate compensation is for the men and women...mostly women...who were mostly under-age at the time and were forced into this.

I find it laughably offensive that $50,000 would be recommended, and even moreso that $20,000 was the counter-offer. These women should be given enough to live the rest of their days out in the lap of fucking luxury.

It's like...one of the only topics where you can draw upon a direct analogy with Hitler without it being a straw man. Holy shit @ the notion that it's a subject of debate in this thread. The notion of terminating someone's ability to procreate at any point in their future life runs counter to everything American and Western culture proper stands for.

Agreed. With everything.
 

Kettch

Member
Black said financial compensation alone won't address the scope of the wrongdoing. He said states where sterilization took place should also make additions to school curricula and erect public monuments to acknowledge what happened.

Seriously, what the hell? I've lived in North Carolina my entire life since 1982, and I've never even heard of this. Amazing and disgusting that something like this could be swept under the rug that well.
 

Vestal

Gold Member
FutureZombie said:
I like to think of myself as a utilitarian. I have many short comings in this because I am too weak and selfish to fully follow the philosophy, but it has made significant changes in my life.


The principle of utility states that actions or behaviors are right in so far as they promote happiness or pleasure, wrong as they tend to produce unhappiness or pain.


If sterilizing an individual produces more happiness than pain, we should do it. Since I can envision many scenarios where sterilization causes more happiness than pain, I see no issue with sterilization in and of itself. It all depends on how we go about it.


HOLY FUCK DUDE...

HOW THE FUCK can mutilating someones body cause happiness TO ANYONE?!?!?!??!
 
Any person who argues in favor for forced sterilization by a government/private entity ceases to be a human being. NO ONE has any right whatsoever to forcefully change or modify our bodies without our full consent. The government of North Carolina acted in utterly barbaric fashion in trying to implement the eugenics project and no amount of monetary compensation will make amends. But before laying the full blame on the state government, people should also learn about the Human Betterment League, an organization made up of rich industrialists and elitists who didn't want welfare flowing to poor people. The HBL was behind the sterilization program in NC and other states as well.

Many thanks should also go to Winston-Salem Journal for exposing the sterilization program.
 
Obsessed said:
And if you did an opinion poll you'd probably find that most people are against the government institutionalizing a eugenics program. Thus a eugenics program would cause more unhappiness and pain than it would pleasure, since the majority of people would view it as inherently evil.


See, you can't just go by a majority vote. If you don't like eugenics, that may only be 1 point of pain for you. But, the kid who grows up in an abusive environment and eventually becomes a criminal? His existence has produced 1,000 points of pain.
 
I'm stunned and embarrassed that this is the first time I've heard of this. I had a teacher who brought up the Tuskegee experiment frequently and focused on omissions and lies created to instill patriotism; that he would skip something like this is perplexing.
 

Arment

Member
I live in North Carolina. This is absolutely disgusting. Moving back to Florida soon so it won't be much better.
 

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
Vestal said:
HOLY FUCK DUDE...

HOW THE FUCK can mutilating someones body cause happiness TO ANYONE?!?!?!??!


To be fair, you could replace surgical castration/sterilization with chemical castration and it probably wouldn't be quite as offensive to anybody with some common sense.
 

Vestal

Gold Member
Fuck I feel like talking to FutureZombie is like we are in the Conspiracy movie talking about the Jewish Question....

What you are suggesting/insinuating is that fucking bad.
 
FutureZombie said:
If sterilizing an individual produces more happiness than pain, we should do it.

Good to know that you think we shouldn't, right?

FutureZombie said:
Since I can envision many scenarios where sterilization causes more happiness than pain, I see no issue with sterilization in and of itself. It all depends on how we go about it.

Are you aware of how painful it is to know you can't have a child? There is no realistic example where there would be more happiness than pain derived from that.
 
FutureZombie said:
See, you can't just go by a majority vote. If you don't like eugenics, that may only be 1 point of pain for you. But, the kid who grows up in an abusive environment and eventually becomes a criminal? His existence has produced 1,000 points of pain.

Oh how scientific of you. Is this the best you can do? The greater good of society guys. Better mutilate people for it! I think we decided we weren't going to pull that shit anymore when we wrote ideas of bodily autonomy into our bills.
 
CabbageRed said:
I'm stunned and embarrassed that this is the first time I've heard of this. I had a teacher who brought up the Tuskegee experiment frequently and focused on omissions and lies created to instill patriotism; that he would skip something like this is perplexing.
I'm surprised so many people are unaware of this program. It carried on from 1948 up till the 70s, for at least two full decades.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
FutureZombie said:
See, you can't just go by a majority vote. If you don't like eugenics, that may only be 1 point of pain for you. But, the kid who grows up in an abusive environment and eventually becomes a criminal? His existence has produced 1,000 points of pain.
So we should sterilize the entirety of the Wall Street elite? They've caused more pain and misery then most petty criminals could in a lifetime.
 

Vestal

Gold Member
Yaboosh said:
To be fair, you could replace surgical castration/sterilization with chemical castration and it probably wouldn't be quite as offensive to anybody with some common sense.


Yeah offcourse that makes it so much better.. Lets not use the Firing squad, lets use lethal injection its more humane, yet IT HAS THE SAME FUCKED UP RESULT
 
that1dude24 said:
Good to know that you think we shouldn't, right?



Are you aware of how painful it is to know you can't have a child? There is no realistic example where there would be more happiness than pain derived from that.



A mother has four kids, is on welfare, is an abusive alcoholic, and we want to sterilize her. That's a realistic scenario.
 
Yaboosh said:
To be fair, you could replace surgical castration/sterilization with chemical castration and it probably wouldn't be quite as offensive to anybody with some common sense.

Violent criminals undergo chemical castration in prison. It's already a reality for them. I assumed Zombie has been talking physically and permanently to their reproductive organs.
 

Matt

Member
FutureZombie said:
We're not basing it on their genes. We're basing it on their actions. Just a guess here, but most violent criminals don't make great parents. That is not a fair assessment?
You are a monster. I say that with all sincerity.
 
FutureZombie said:
See, you can't just go by a majority vote. If you don't like eugenics, that may only be 1 point of pain for you. But, the kid who grows up in an abusive environment and eventually becomes a criminal? His existence has produced 1,000 points of pain.

Can I see the math that led to this (most definitely) objective measure of pain points?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
FutureZombie said:
A mother has four kids, is on welfare, is an abusive alcoholic, and we want to sterilize her. That's a realistic scenario.
I like the idea of state mandated birth control if she's on welfare muuuuuch better.
 

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
Vestal said:
Yeah offcourse that makes it so much better.. Lets not use the Firing squad, lets use lethal injection its more humane, yet IT HAS THE SAME FUCKED UP RESULT



What? It most certainly does not have the same result. Chemical castration is closer to birth control than surgical castration.

Still a huge ethical mine field, but the two are not the same.

Devolution said:
Violent criminals undergo chemical castration in prison. It's already a reality for them. I assumed Zombie has been talking physically and permanently to their reproductive organs.


With his level of ignorance shown in this thread, he may not have ever considered it as an option.
 
FutureZombie said:
A mother has four kids, is on welfare, is an abusive alcoholic, and we want to sterilize her. That's a realistic scenario.

So you get to decide this right? You are all knowing and all seeing. And her rights to bodily autonomy mean nothing in the face of your judgment. Good to know.
 

Vestal

Gold Member
Yaboosh said:
What? It most certainly does not have the same result. Chemical castration is closer to birth control than surgical castration.

Still a huge ethical mine field, but the two are not the same.


it is still irreversible.
 

Dizzy

Banned
This is one of the worst things I've ever read. Can't believe that it would still be going on in the 70's. It just puzzles me how people could have this attitude that it was an ok thing to do to other people. It's like the whole damn world is one inch away from insanity at any given moment.
 

unomas

Banned
Trust the government, they never do anything evil or wrong. This little story is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to fucked up shit the government does in this country. America, demolish it and start over.
 
FutureZombie said:
A mother has four kids, is on welfare, is an abusive alcoholic, and we want to sterilize her. That's a realistic scenario.

Spend that money on rehabilitating the mother rather than forcing her to never have children again.

There, more "happy points" have been created.
 
States that had Eugenics laws on the books:
  • Arizona
  • California
  • Connecticut
  • Delaware
  • Georgia
  • Idaho
  • Indiana
  • Iowa
  • Kansas
  • Maine
  • Michigan
  • Minnesota
  • Mississippi
  • Montana
  • Nebraska
  • New Hampshire
  • North Carolina
  • North Dakota
  • Oklahoma
  • Oregon
  • South Carolina
  • South Dakota
  • Utah
  • Vermont
  • Virginia
  • West Virginia
  • Wisconsin


also,

Wiki said:
The intention to control or reduce ethnic minorities, especially "Negroes," can be seen in writings by some leaders in the eugenics movement:

In an 1893 "open letter" published in the Virginia Medical Monthly, Hunter Holmes McGuire, a Richmond physician and president of the American Medical Association, asked for "some scientific explanation of the sexual perversion in the Negro of the present day." McGuire's correspondent, Chicago physician G. Frank Lydston, replied that African-American men raped white women because of "[h]ereditary influences descending from the uncivilized ancestors of our Negroes." Lydston suggested as a solution to perform surgical castration, which "prevents the criminal from perpetuating his kind."[17]​

In 1935, a decade after the passage of Virginia's eugenics laws, Plecker wrote to Walter Gross, director of Nazi Germany’s Bureau of Human Betterment and Eugenics. Plecker described Virginia's racial purity laws and requested to be put on Gross' mailing list. Plecker commented upon the Third Reich's sterilization of 600 children in Algeria who were born of German women by black fathers: "I hope this work is complete and not one has been missed. I sometimes regret that we have not the authority to put some measures in practice in Virginia."[18]

Despite lacking the statutory authority to sterilize black, mulatto and American Indian children simply because they were "colored", a small number of Virginia eugenicists in key positions found other ways to achieve that goal. The Sterilization Act gave State institutions, including hospitals, psychiatric institutions and prisons, the statutory authority to sterilize persons deemed to be "feebleminded" — a highly subjective criterion.

Dr. Joseph DeJarnette, director of the Western State Hospital in Staunton, Virginia, was a leading advocate of eugenics. DeJarnette was unsatisfied with the pace of America's eugenics sterilization programs. In 1938 he wrote:

"Germany in six years has sterilized about 80,000 of her unfit while the United States — with approximately twice the population — has only sterilized about 27,869 in the past 20 years. ... The fact that there are 12,000,000 defectives in the U.S. should arouse our best endeavors to push this procedure to the maximum... The Germans are beating us at our own game."[19]​

By "12 million defectives", DeJarnette was almost certainly referring to ethnic minorities, as there have never been 12 million mental patients in the United States.

According to historian Gregory M. Dorr, the University of Virginia School of Medicine (UVA) became "an epicenter of eugenical thought" that was "closely linked with the national movement." One of UVA's leading eugenicists was promoted to dean of medicine in 1939. He was in a position to shape the opinion and practice of Virginia physicians for several decades. This excerpt from a 1934 UVA student paper indicates one person's thoughts: "In Germany, Hitler has decreed that about 400,000 persons be sterilized. This is a great step in eliminating the racial deficients."[20]

The racial effects of the program in Virginia can be seen by the disproportionately high number of black and American Indian women who were given forced sterilizations after coming to a hospital for other reasons, such as childbirth. Doctors sometimes sterilized the women without their knowledge or consent in the course of other surgery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Integrity_Act_of_1924

Of course, I am not surprised. This, however, does not stay my anger. Anything to fuck over the poor, minorities or otherwise disenfranchised.

This fucking world. I swear.
 

DDayton

(more a nerd than a geek)
unomas said:
Trust the government, they never do anything evil or wrong. This little story is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to fucked up shit the government does in this country. America, demolish it and start over.

In all fairness, it's not like America was the only one doing stuff like this..

Edit: Again, this is in NO WAY a defense of what happened. I'm sickened and appalled by it - just pointing out that it wasn't limited to the USA.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Reminds me of Australia's "Stolen Generation"/kids being kidnapped to be shipped off (or to? Forgetting) AU in the 1020-40's.

I really don't know what the fuck was up in the World War era. I just don't...
 
unomas said:
Trust the government, they never do anything evil or wrong. This little story is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to fucked up shit the government does in this country. America, demolish it and start over.
Eugenics is a branch of science. This is an example of science being used wrongly. State Government of NC is complicit, but it is not the only culprit. There were lots of people funding the Eugenics project, most of them wealthy and racists.
 

DDayton

(more a nerd than a geek)
Vestal said:
Still doesn't make it right..

Oh, of course not. I never meant to imply that it did. It's horrible -- I just meant that you can't single out the US when it was a giant chunk of western "civilization" involved in this.
 
If I had my way, nobody would have kids. Ever.

It's a shame that once people figured out how reproduction works and that it could be prevented, they failed to change course. Sadly, it's their mistakes the rest of have to live with.

No more. Humanity, let this be our final stand.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom