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[CornBurrito]

We can argue forever over the criteria. The main point I wanted to make with my first post is that some people should be sterilized. Some should.

And you are ignoring that the criteria will never be objective, so the system will be abused. You can never realistically implement a eugenics program. The lack of objectivity regarding the criteria will ensure that the program will be abused and destined for failure.

As a utilitarian you should see that you'd really only cause more grief than you would happiness. We've seen it time after time. All eugenics systems have been abused because they have all failed to have the slightest hint of objectivity.

 

[FutureZombie]

So the right to my bodily autonomy should be a privilege?

If you want to cut yourself, that's fine. If you want to do something with your body that will hurt other people, I have a problem with that.

 

[Devolution]

If you want to cut yourself, that's fine. If you want to do something with your body that will hurt other people, I have a problem with that.

But you're fine with mutilating people you deem unfit to procreate. You're bad at this.

Your priorities should be better education and social safety nets, along with easier/cheaper access to birth control.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Just saw this on TV.



If you think that bullshit in American history only extends to the poor treatment of women and minorities and Native American killings you're in for a wide awakening.

Here's a fun fact that I've heard from some people: prior to the American Revolution, the British very very rarely collected taxes from the colonies. Many towns didn't even pay them.

Well duh. What people don't know this either? The Stamp Act (and related acts) were an attempt to actually try and effectively collect something and wasn't altogether horrible in terms of rates. Tax evasion was a colonial pastime.That doesn't change that it was still taxation with representation.

Another fact America was the China of the early 20th century when it came to copyright protection.

 

[FutureZombie]

But you're fine with mutilating people you deem unfit to procreate. You're bad at this.

The sterilization isn't a punishment for them. It's not meant to change their behavior. It's meant to prevent them from having kids that will likely:


1) Have terrible lives.

2) Hurt other people either explicitly, or through other means.




As for cheaper birth control, it's already cheap here in the US. And better education? Unfit parents are the reason the education system is screwed up in the first place.

 

[RustyNails]

We have developed a set of criteria that determines who gets set to die. We can develop a set of criteria to determine who cannot breed.

We do this for everything. You want to drive? Pass a test. Same idea here.

You absolutely CANNOT.

Not in a civilized society. Maybe if you want to fantasize about a Rapture-esque libertopia, sure go ahead. Reproduction is your basic human right, and no one has the authority to remove it. Your biggest beef with welfare moms is that they are gaming the system. So instead of forcibly sterilizing them, why not advocate modifying welfare programs? Why not advocate state mandated adult education for welfare recipients of 4+ kids? There are many ways to reduce pregnancies of poor and outcast, and forcibly sterilizing them is not one of them.

 

[Esch]

Taking away another individual's right to procreate, to deny them their only biological prerogative...

"It's for the greater good!"

 

[Songbird]

1) Have terrible lives.

2) Hurt other people either explicitly, or through other means.

What I don't understand about this viewpoint is why can't these children have the chance to decide their futures for themselves?

 

[Funky Papa]

They thought poverty and immorality were GENETIC TRAITS and designated them "feeble minded", then sent them off to sterilization camps to end their bloodlines. In the US of fucking A.

I am in fucking awe, friends. I'm in shock and awe.

I said I wouldn't take part in this thread out of fear of venting too much and getting the banstick, but this reminded me that the Spanish Confederation of Employers' Organizations published a paper claiming that success is genetic, and that the government shouldn't spend too much money on education since poor people will remain poor and unsuccessful by virtue of their genes.

Yes, these people still exist in the 1st world. And they are god damned scary.

 

[Devolution]

As for cheaper birth control, it's already cheap here in the US. And better education? Unfit parents are the reason the education system is screwed up in the first place.

I'm done with you. It's obvious you've got an agenda blinding you to reason and facts.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Taking away another individual's right to procreate, to deny them their only biological prerogative...

"It's for the greater good!"

Socialism at work and on a biological scale!

Even Lenin would have lifted an eyebrow at this. Seriously, you KNOW you've fucked up when Adolph Hitler gave you shout-outs in Mein Kampf. For those who didn't know, he gave the US eugenics program a shout-out, and apparently it was source The Third Reich's 'purification' idea.

sweet jesus

I said I wouldn't take part in this thread out of fear of venting too much and getting the banstick, but this reminded me that the Spanish Confederation of Employers' Organizations published a paper claiming that success is genetic, and that the government shouldn't spend too much money on education since poor people will remain poor and unseccessful by virtue of their genes.

Yes, these people still exist in the 1st world. And they are god damned scary.

I said wow.

leSigh.

 

[tiff]

I'm surprised there aren't more people in this thread defending sterilization, honestly.

Certain states probably have it conveniently left off of the curriculum for required topics.

Funnily enough, I grew up in the first state to enact compulsory sterilization, and I learned about this in high school. I had a hell of a history teacher, though.

Well duh. What people don't know this either? The Stamp Act (and related acts) were an attempt to actually try and effectively collect something and wasn't altogether horrible in terms of rates. Tax evasion was a colonial pastime.That doesn't change that it was still taxation with representation.

Fun related fact: The Tea Act actually made the price of tea cheaper, and the colonists responded by tossing the shit into the Boston Harbor and continuing to drink smuggled tea.

And better education? Unfit parents are the reason the education system is screwed up in the first place.

Ahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

why not advocate modifying welfare programs? Why not advocate state mandated adult education for welfare recipients of 4+ kids? There are many ways to reduce pregnancies of poor and outcast, and forcibly sterilizing them is not one of them.

What about the people who don't care and won't stop? I'm not suggesting sterilization, but there are legitimate issues (as I posted earlier). Throwing more money won't always fix it.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

The Tea Act actually made the price of tea cheaper, and the colonists responded by tossing the shit into the Boston Harbor and continuing to drink smuggled tea.

No one said they were a logical bunch all the time. Hell, rioting was the other big colonial pastime in Boston next to Tax Evasion. They would often destroy and loot the homes of government officials.

 

[RustyNails]

The sterilization isn't a punishment for them. It's not meant to change their behavior. It's meant to prevent them from having kids that will likely:


1) Have terrible lives.

2) Hurt other people either explicitly, or through other means.

Read the story of Elaine Jessie. Then come back and spout your drivel. I dare you. People like you thought she was fit for sterilization. After all, she got pregnant at age 13 and her family abused her. She was sterilized at age 14 because the government found her intellectually lacking with an IQ of 75, promiscuous, and "likely" to stay in the cesspool.

She defied all odds. Moved to NY, got a college degree and graduated cum laude, and is now suing NC for sterilizing her.

I will wait for your probability argument: How many Elaines do we have vs how many useless ghetto moms in a cesspool that is a poor neighborhood.

 

[truly101]

I didn't know about it until two years ago when one of the local NPR affiliated radio shows about it (Easley was still governor I think). Pretty shocking and NOBODY here talks about it at all.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Well duh. What people don't know this either?

I'd wager at least 90% of the American population?

No one said they were a logical bunch all the time. Hell, rioting was the other big colonial pastime in Boston next to Tax Evasion. They would often destroy and loot the homes of government officials.

The Ye Olde America in general would destroy and loot homes over countless mundane issues.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I'd wager at least 90% of the American population?

Well fuck'em. It just annoys me to no end (Mr. Burton)! It's something that isn't limited to one political belief spectrum too.

 

[RustyNails]

What about the people who don't care and won't stop? I'm not suggesting sterilization, but there are legitimate issues (as I posted earlier). Throwing more money won't always fix it.

If I were to guess, there would be very few people out of millions who want to keep making babies to exploit the system. Way too few to warrant any sort of forcible, fascist nonsense like futurezombie's. Studies have shown that extremely poor people need a support environment in order to move ahead in life. A sort of community effort, community organization and support infrastructure.

 

[timetokill]

Damn, sounds like the government at work indeed Terrifying stuff, the kind of control they can exert on supposedly free people.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I'd wager at least 90% of the American population?

I'd argue 95%, to be honest.

Consider:

http://articles.cnn.com/2006-05-02/...raphic-knowledge-young-people?_s=PM:EDUCATION

I consider it some serious perspective on the state of your average American's wealth of history and geography. If only half can find New York on a map, how much less the details of our history?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

The Ye Olde America in general would destroy and loot homes over countless mundane issues.

Not compared to Boston, it was an art form there. lol

http://books.google.com/books?id=eP...riots AJ langguth&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[RustyNails]

What I don't understand about this viewpoint is why can't these children have the chance to decide their futures for themselves?

Because people like futurezombie already know what's gonna happen with those children. Some of them will grow up and become gangsta thugs, coke addicts, lazy ass deadbeats sucking the system dry, while the other half becomes HIV infected teenage moms sucking dicks in alleys. It's for their own good!

 

[Songbird]

Because people like futurezombie already know what's gonna happen with those children. Some of them will grow up and become gangsta thugs, coke addicts, lazy ass deadbeats sucking the system dry, while the other half becomes HIV infected teenage moms sucking dicks in alleys. It's for their own good!

That's why I hate the whole "sins of the father" rhetoric. Some of history's greatest monsters were the children of the most normal people.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

If I were to guess, there would be very few people out of millions who want to keep making babies to exploit the system. Way too few to warrant any sort of forcible, fascist nonsense like futurezombie's. Studies have shown that extremely poor people need a support environment in order to move ahead in life. A sort of community effort, community organization and support infrastructure.

It's not to exploit the system, it's just that they don't give a fuck, I'm not thinking about the "Welfare Queen", but the cinderblock family. I doubt they were trying to game the system. Don't at a point, people have the the right to say fuck off, you're hit the ceiling on money you'll get, but like I said it starts a giant Catch 22, but ignoring it doesn't help either, nor does saying it's only a few people, so it's not a big deal. Once again I'm not suggested forced sterilization, but isn't it possible that a support environment might entail not having any more kids? It's once again not with the goal of gaming the system, just a left over treat from the day where infant mortality was insanely high and out of 7 kids only 2 might survive.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

I'd argue 95%, to be honest.

Consider:

http://articles.cnn.com/2006-05-02/...raphic-knowledge-young-people?_s=PM:EDUCATION

I consider it some serious perspective on the state of your average American's wealth of history and geography. If only half can find New York on a map, how much less the details of our history?

I'd argue 95%, to be honest.

Consider:

http://articles.cnn.com/2006-05-02/...raphic-knowledge-young-people?_s=PM:EDUCATION

I consider it some serious perspective on the state of your average American's wealth of history and geography. If only half can find New York on a map, how much less the details of our history?

The average American can't pass the citizenship test. There was a thread on GAF about the practice test that could be taken online. I can't find it though.

And obligatory.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Because people like futurezombie already know what's gonna happen with those children. Some of them will grow up and become gangsta thugs, coke addicts, lazy ass deadbeats sucking the system dry, while the other half becomes HIV infected teenage moms sucking dicks in alleys. It's for their own good!

 

[Dreams-Visions]

The average American can't pass the citizenship test. There was a thread on GAF about the practice test that could be taken online. I can't find it though.

And obligatory.

smh

 

[TacticalFox88]

Our education system fails. You're supposed to teach the good AND bad. This nation has truly done some fucked up shit. Especially during the Cold War. We were probably no different than the Soviets when it came to human rights violations and general fucked up shit.

 

[remnant]

The Maafa21 documentary (available online) argues Planned Parenthood began as a eugenics program specifically for the black population in the US.

It was. Eugenics was a large part of the progressive movement, and it kinda still is. The idea that authority, whether from government, or scientific elites or whatever can force what they want in the name of society or whatever is pretty common.

The author suggests, probably correctly, that it was Americans' tendency to reach for perfection that swayed us toward eugenics in the first place; this is the land of manifest destiny, after all, and it certainly was not manifest that our destiny be that morons run about all over the land. Moreover, it's undeniable that eugenics did enjoy a certain logical appeal as a social tool. For people who were embracing science and technology in all corners of their lives -- this was the age of industrialization -- sterilization had the benefit of being both novel and efficient. You didn't have to be evil to support eugenics; you only had to have a fuzzy idea of how biological sciences worked (and a fuzzy idea is all scientists had at that time), as well as a general reformist spirit. That's why progressives, rather than religious fundamentalists, were so hip to eugenics. The whole thing seemed like a can't-miss idea.

http://www.salon.com/books/review/2006/03/04/bruinius

Our education system fails. You're supposed to teach the good AND bad. This nation has truly done some fucked up shit. Especially during the Cold War. We were probably no different than the Soviets when it came to human rights violations and general fucked up shit.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Also i hope many of you that are attacking FutureZombie are pro-life. You're using their exact argument, word for word.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Our education system fails. You're supposed to teach the good AND bad.

Not if conservatives in Texas have their way, it seems.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Educat...book-war-Slavery-or-Atlantic-triangular-trade

I mean look at that shit, man.

Sommbitches.

 

[jambo]

The sterilization isn't a punishment for them. It's not meant to change their behavior.

Do you actually, really, truly believe that sterilisation will have no long-term mental effects on those you sterilise?!

 

[Vestal]

The sterilization isn't a punishment for them. It's not meant to change their behavior. It's meant to prevent them from having kids that will likely:


1) Have terrible lives.

2) Hurt other people either explicitly, or through other means.




As for cheaper birth control, it's already cheap here in the US. And better education? Unfit parents are the reason the education system is screwed up in the first place.

You really think that altering someones ability to procreate isn't punishment? Not to mention any physical or psychological side effects that may come from said procedure?

So how do you judge this? lets say a wealthy mother has 5 kids, her husband dies and for x or y reason they lose all their money, what then do we sterilize her?


What about people who live off the land and have like 6 or 7 kids, they are poor by our standards but if you ask them they live happy..

 

[jambo]

And obligatory.

Holy shit @ the Old & New Testament thing .__.

 

[akira28]

Racism is a bitch. So is any superiority complex, no matter how 'soft touch' it might be. Quietly mutilating innocent women and girls in the name of "science". Hiding racism and hatred and a primal fear behind the "high minded" academic ideas of eugenics.

If anything at all happens, those women deserve a monument so people remember what was done to them. I knew about the eugenics programs, and I happened to see others referencing it at one of the bleeding heart liberal blogs I read, due to all the court battles. But beyond that, probably not too many people know about this. Most school curriculums probably try to fly past the Tuskegee experiments and the other incidents like it in the 20th century, so I wouldn't expect more than a couple of sentences about this as well. And haha, racist sumbitches in North Carolina are still trying to save money. "Well it wasn't us that did it. That was years before our time..very long ago. Like...you know..almost 10. So.... And any we're in a recession. Why should we be blamed for what our predecessors did?" hah. oh, the South.

 

[akira28]

And better education? Unfit parents are the reason the education system is screwed up in the first place.

Ahahahahahahahahaha

He meant to say "unwed mothers".

 

[Pie Lord]

this isn't taught in the american school system?

Nope. I doubt Canada, the UK, Switzerland, Czechoslovakia, Sweden, India, China, Japan, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Iceland or Panama teach about their programs either.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Nope. I doubt Canada, the UK, Switzerland, Czechoslovakia, Sweden, India, China, Japan, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Iceland or Panama teach about their programs either.

indeed.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Not if conservatives in Texas have their way, it seems.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Educat...book-war-Slavery-or-Atlantic-triangular-trade

I mean look at that shit, man.

Sommbitches.

I know I'm not the only one who thinks that this country has been getting progressively racist over the past decade.

Shit's ridiculous.

Our education system fails. You're supposed to teach the good AND bad. This nation has truly done some fucked up shit. Especially during the Cold War. We were probably no different than the Soviets when it came to human rights violations and general fucked up shit.

Give me some examples. I'm curious.

 

[rexor0717]

This is pretty atrocious. And of course, there is always someone on GAF to defend it.

 

[CornBurrito]

This is pretty atrocious. And of course, there is always someone on GAF to defend it.

I'm actually kind of shocked there was a defense force in this thread. Even if someone supports eugenics you'd think they'd have the decency to keep it out of a thread created because of a clear abuse of eugenics.

 

[ikkemenx]

We should develop a set of criteria for sterilizing people. It shouldn't be because we don't like the way they look or what religion they are. It should be based on their past deeds. You have a kid at 13, we're taking a serious look at you.

And not only have I read the OP, I have read about this exact case in North Carolina before.

I'm actually terrified right now.

EDIT:

Nope. I doubt Canada, the UK, Switzerland, Czechoslovakia, Sweden, India, China, Japan, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Iceland or Panama teach about their programs either.

Definitely not in Canada. In my experience (having lived in a few provinces) the vast majority of our social studies/history curriculums touched upon early Canadian history, Russian history, and the World Wars with little depth.

 

[Kusagari]

I'd argue 95%, to be honest.

Consider:

http://articles.cnn.com/2006-05-02/...raphic-knowledge-young-people?_s=PM:EDUCATION

I consider it some serious perspective on the state of your average American's wealth of history and geography. If only half can find New York on a map, how much less the details of our history?

How the hell do people not know where Louisiana and New York are on a map. That's pathetic.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I know I'm not the only one who thinks that this country has been getting progressively racist over the past decade.

Shit's ridiculous.

but how can we support American exceptionalism if we're...not so exceptional?

WHAT WILL WE TELL THE CHILDREN

 

[WanderingWind]

How the hell do people not know where Louisiana and New York are on a map. That's pathetic.

Surveyor - "Yeah, you look like an average resident of this hick town. Let me ask you a question - I mean, if you can take time from beating your sister/wife and chugging moonshine bought with your welfare checks, that is."

Regular dude - "Uh, that was offen-"

Surveyor - "Sorry, I can't understand your godawful southern dialect. Can you just do me a favor and point to New York on this map? You know what New York is, right? Do you know what a map is?"

Regular dude - [Points to China with his middle finger.]

Surveyor - "That's so sad."

 

[Utako]

This story is about obvious racism, but I'm not opposed to certain kinds of eugenic strategies in this vein. More regulated and less witch-trial.

 

[CornBurrito]

This story is about obvious racism, but I'm not opposed to certain kinds of eugenic strategies in this vein. More regulated and less witch-trial.

Mhmm...

So what are the criteria, are they objective, who has the right to set them, and is abuse of the system possible?

Also when setting criteria please make sure they aren't inherently discriminatory, or have the potential to harm innocents. IE: Anyone that goes to prison 2 times. While such a criteria may seem fine on its own it ignores these important things:

1. The wealthy can often afford better lawyers, perhaps earning a lessened sentence.
2. People have been wrongly imprisoned (granted the chances of this happening twice are probably low).
3. In a given society, the poor are more likely to commit crime.
4. Minorities are more likely to commit crime (probably because they are more likely to be poor).

Also is our government free of corruption? Do you think this eugenics program would be immune to any possible government corruption?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

but I'm not opposed to certain kinds of eugenic strategies in this vein.

1.) what are these "certain kinds of eugenic strategies"?

2.) Define "in this vein". Because the vein that the OP is in is...forced sterilization. That vein?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

It's finally up at NPR. http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=137347548&m=137351520

Just 4 minutes. Please listen.

 

[fse]

Sad stuff but I am not surprised about this happening in this country. More will come out perhaps.

[tinfoil]
Also makes me wonder if other companies might be doing this secretly with food and medicine
[/tinfoil]