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NBA 2004 PreSeason Thread
- Thread starter Miguel
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what a sorry sack of shit t-mac has turned out to be. needless to say, i won't be watching any games that involve him. and people wonder why the NBA is looked down on and disrespected; millionare babies crying about their old team that they couldn't lead therefore resulting in them demanding a trade to an already somewhat successful team.
DMczaf said:
"LOOOOOOKKKKKIIIIIIIII!!!!"
:lol
Loki said:Yes, Vince has done things Jordan couldn't, vertical-leap wise. McGrady and Jordan both have more hang-time than Vince ever did, pre- or post-injury. My point was about "overall athleticism", which you conede Jordan has them beat in, so we're on the same page.Neither Vince nor TMac have the sort of explosiveness off the dribble or speed in changing directions that MJ had, which was my point.
Nah, you're wrong there as well...Vince stays in the air just as long as those guys. He simply makes it look easy while doing so. You kinda need great hang time in order to be able to put your arm into a hoop and hang on with it, or do a 360 reverse windmill with power, or catch a ball then windmill it on an alley oop jam, or jump from 8 feet out and still clear the head of a 7 footer. To say otherwise simply isn't reasonable, unless you believe he's got a 47 inch vert (and I don't think his vert was higher then 37 in the dunk off).
DMczaf said:
WHY DON'T YOU ADDRESS THE POINTS I RAISED INSTEAD OF BEING A TMAC APOLOGIST?
did gary payton demand a trade? certainly not from the "evidence" you provided. he was rightly pissed off for signing a deal with a team who told him they would not trade him. then he gets shipped off. so the guy let off a few zingers, so the fuck what? he's playing for boston, right?
yeah, thought so.
http://www.thebrushback.com/Archives/payton_full.htm
LOS ANGELES, CA--These are troubled times for the Los Angeles Lakers. On the heels of Shaquille ONeils trade demand and Phil Jacksons retirement, the franchise received another blow when point guard Gary Payton demanded a trade back to the 1995 Seattle Supersonics. Payton, who has been frustrated by Phil Jacksons triangle offense, said hes had enough and wants out.
I want out, and I want out now, Payton told the Los Angeles Times on Friday. This triangle offense isnt for me. Hell, this town isnt even for me. I really want to go back to Seattle, but not the team they have right now. Id much rather go back to 1995, when we won 64 games and had [Shawn] Kemp, [Hersey] Hawkins, and [Detlef] Schrempf. Yea, those were the good old days. We were in the finals you know. Anyway, lets make this trade happen.
Payton backed up his demand by threatening to return next season and stink up the place.
If Im not traded, Ill come back next year and pick up where I left off, he said. Ill be selfish, I wont learn or understand the triangle offense, Ill complain, and Ill suck defensively. In fact, I may even be a step slower, if its at all possible. So if I were Mitch Kupchak, Id trade me immediately.
:lol :lol
LOS ANGELES, CA--These are troubled times for the Los Angeles Lakers. On the heels of Shaquille ONeils trade demand and Phil Jacksons retirement, the franchise received another blow when point guard Gary Payton demanded a trade back to the 1995 Seattle Supersonics. Payton, who has been frustrated by Phil Jacksons triangle offense, said hes had enough and wants out.
I want out, and I want out now, Payton told the Los Angeles Times on Friday. This triangle offense isnt for me. Hell, this town isnt even for me. I really want to go back to Seattle, but not the team they have right now. Id much rather go back to 1995, when we won 64 games and had [Shawn] Kemp, [Hersey] Hawkins, and [Detlef] Schrempf. Yea, those were the good old days. We were in the finals you know. Anyway, lets make this trade happen.
Payton backed up his demand by threatening to return next season and stink up the place.
If Im not traded, Ill come back next year and pick up where I left off, he said. Ill be selfish, I wont learn or understand the triangle offense, Ill complain, and Ill suck defensively. In fact, I may even be a step slower, if its at all possible. So if I were Mitch Kupchak, Id trade me immediately.
:lol :lol
Shinobi said:
Dude, if Dominique Wilkins had a 48" vert and Jordan had nearly the same give or take an inch or two, then I'm pretty sure that Vince has a 47" vertical leap. As for the hangtime, well, yes, when he plants two feet and jumps more vertical than horizontal, he has great hangtime, because he gets really high due to his vertical leap.
But, much like Doninique, he's not an exceptional one-foot or horizontal leaper; McGrady and Jordan are better horizontal leapers (i.e., can get higher and cover more distance off of one foot on horizontal leaps such as layup attempts). To give you an example:
The Vince alley-oop dunk from Rucker, where he catches it in the air and then puts it through his legs-- insane, right? I'm not sure if Jordan could do that (he likely couldn't, but such things weren't even attempted back then). Remember the Jordan highlight where he catches the alley-oop on the break against the Knicks sideways, with Mark Jackson jumping to try to catch the pass, and Jordan just takes off sideways off of one foot, horizontally, and jams it and then lands on Ewing's head? Look where Jordan's head is on that play and where he takes off from, while running full speed, off of one foot. I don't think Vince could do that; I think TMac or Kobe possibly could.
Point being that Vince's hangtime is largely confined to the jumps that have a greater vertical component than a horizontal one (yes, this sounds crazy, but it's true). Does Carter have more horizontal or one-foot jump hangtime than 95% of other players? Yes. But it's nowhere near what TMac or Jordan have/had. Do you honestly think that Carter-- even pre-injury-- could do that move that TMac made against Charlotte that DM had as an avatar a while back, where he comes under the basket and flips it up at the last second with his left hand? Can Vince do Jordan's move against the Nets where he wends his way through 4 Nets defenders in the air to hit the reverse after taking off from the dotted line on the other side of the basket (this is my fave MJ move ever, btw, especially seen froma normal angle)? I don't think he can do either of those, or dozens of other things the two of them have done over the years. Likewise, Vince has done things that McGrady and Jordan most likely couldn't do, mostly things involving vertical leap (see: VC's Olympic jam over that 7-footer).
If one combined the instances of "jumps with more horizontal component than vertical" and "jumps with more vertical component than horizontal" (which are rarer, since you need space to plant both feet without getting bumped), then Jordan and TMac have more hangtime than Vince ever did imo, because they have greater hangtime on the majority of those leaps, which are horizontal leaps. I hope you don't think this is an artificial distinction I'm making here, because it's common knowledge that guys like Wilkins or Vince are great vertical leapers, while guys like Jordan, Drexler, and TMac are great vertical AND horizontal leapers (while not as good in the vertical as the pure vertical leapers are).
RobotChant
Member
DMczaf said:
He bailed on the fans. Too bad we all can’t get up and move when our teams start sucking.
RobotChant said:He bailed on the fans. Too bad we all cant get up and move when our teams start sucking.
He told management if they didn't show any signs of trying to make the team better sooner rather then later that he would not resign in 2005 when he had an option to leave. That's how all the mess started, the Magic were scared of losing T-Mac like Shaq and getting nothing for him.
Funny that his Rocket teammates call him a very unselfish player. Meh, but what do they know? They only play with him.
Yeah you would go against the head coach just to prove...nothing in preseason. :lol
Come on guys, what's with all the T-Mac hate? It's not like he was accused of rape with an 18 year old hotel worker, or caught with weed and said it was "his friends". Or charged with assault at a Toronto strip club...
Ninja Scooter
Member
Damn, 22 minutes? Yao must have been exhausted.
"Don't you ever leave me in the game that long again, little man."
"Don't you ever leave me in the game that long again, little man."
Jumpman
Member
Jordan was the best player in the air EVER, period. He's not called Air Jordan for nothing you know.
Vince has thrown down some of the sickest dunks in NBA history, but I think Jordan could have done any one of them. Everything Jordan did on the court was beautiful, graceful, art in motion. Whenever he would jump you know something great was about to happen. It's true that his dunks weren't as flamboyant as some you see today, but theres a reason for that. You just didn't showboat as much back then. If you tried to, you would get your ass handed to you on the next possesion. You can't get away with punishing showboaters very easily anymore, with the current rules, so people are more inclined to show off. Plus, if they can make a name for themself on the highlight shows, it leads to monster endorsement deals. With all that said, Jordan's airial exploits, although more subtle, were and still are unmatched.
Vince has thrown down some of the sickest dunks in NBA history, but I think Jordan could have done any one of them. Everything Jordan did on the court was beautiful, graceful, art in motion. Whenever he would jump you know something great was about to happen. It's true that his dunks weren't as flamboyant as some you see today, but theres a reason for that. You just didn't showboat as much back then. If you tried to, you would get your ass handed to you on the next possesion. You can't get away with punishing showboaters very easily anymore, with the current rules, so people are more inclined to show off. Plus, if they can make a name for themself on the highlight shows, it leads to monster endorsement deals. With all that said, Jordan's airial exploits, although more subtle, were and still are unmatched.
Jumpman said:Jordan was the best player in the air EVER, period. He's not called Air Jordan for nothing you know.
Vince has thrown down some of the sickest dunks in NBA history, but I think Jordan could have done any one of them. Everything Jordan did on the court was beautiful, graceful, art in motion. Whenever he would jump you know something great was about to happen. It's true that his dunks weren't as flamboyant as some you see today, but theres a reason for that. You just didn't showboat as much back then. If you tried to, you would get your ass handed to you on the next possesion. You can't get away with punishing showboaters very easily anymore, with the current rules, so people are more inclined to show off. Plus, if they can make a name for themself on the highlight shows, it leads to monster endorsement deals. With all that said, Jordan's airial exploits, although more subtle, were and still are unmatched.
I'm the biggest Jordan whore on the board (apologies to DM, Partly, and Miguel
), and even I'm going to have to disagree-- I think there are things that Carter's done that Jordan wouldn't be able to reproduce exactly, such as his Olympic dunk or Rucker Park alley-oop. Similarly, there are moves/dunks of Jordan's that I think Vince would be hard-pressed to match; in particular, I have two in mind-- one against Detroit where he's ahead of the break and takes off from a ridiculous distance out off one foot and sorta "walks" through the air, legs moving, and still has to duck his head so he doesn't hit it on the rim (if you see it, you'd know the one I'm talking about right away); another one was against the Sixers (I think), where he takes off from behind the dotted line at an angle and then about 6 feet from the basket collides with David Wingate who is trying to take the block/foul, and Jordan just drags him to the basket and finishes right through him. Crazy.So I think there's things that both of them can do that the other couldn't. See my previous post for further elaboration.
Jumpman
Member
Loki said:I'm the biggest Jordan whore on the board (apologies to DM, Partly, and Miguel
So I think there's things that both of them can do that the other couldn't. See my previous post for further elaboration.
You could be right, but I think Jordan had more hops then we ever saw him display in a game. He made some incredible dunks duing his career (such as the ones you mentioned), and every time it looked like he could have done more. It looked effortless for him, like he was jamming on an 8 foot rim or something. Maybe it was the best he could do, and his gracefull execution masked that, it's tough to say. When Vince jumps, it's like a rocket taking off. So much brute thrust, and upward explosion. It's easy to see he's pushing himself. Jordan however, just sort of levitated and then flew to the rim.
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