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[Spring-Loaded]

This topic was discussed in a vacuum, until people expanded it to wider issues. People need to be being able to understand one persons opinion on a single topic doesn't reflect how they feel on a topic adjacent to it. We we're and I'm defending my statements on Naughty Dog having a white VA play the role or a Black character. Thats it. It's up to you to know which topics I dress directly. If you take a statement in one context and apply it to another its interpreted differently. Is that my fault for not being hyper aware of how my views come across in every conceivable way?

An example I gave regarding a perspective to take on black representation was taken as my gospel truth, which to me shows me not only how strongly people feel towards misrepresentation of this kind, but how people read what they want. You pick apart my posts like each sentence exists in a vacuum, when the whole context matters. This topic is simply too sensitive for my opinions, and said opinions simply do not mesh or come out wrong.

If I seemingly am responding to a single sentence of your post, it's because that sentence is a key part of your misunderstanding of the discussion at large. If you say you don't care who plays the role as if that's relevant to the discussion, then it reflects a lack of awareness on your part — you sound not aware that that makes you seem unconcerned with what's best for ND and the game industry and only care about voicing your opinion. That sentence tells people you don't see what's wrong with saying a dog could be playing the role for all you care.

All of that can be parsed from almost any one of your sentences, and, despite reading your posts in their entirety, I can infer that, based on you dismissing the other posters who have responded to you so far, going through those posts line by line and responding to each part individually wouldn't convince you of the (myriad) things you're wrong about. It seems you've been given the benefit of the doubt, but you double down on saying some questionable stuff.

You complain about people taking your comments out of context, yet you refuse to acknowledge the context of the discussion.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Wait what

You asked "are white VAs underrepresented." I'm answering, yes in a way and saying "white" VAs who aren't of a Western European descent are pretty poorly represented.

Culturally and ethnically there is a huge number of whites that are underrepresented in the media, especially western media.

Yep.

 

[Ganzlinger]

What should they change their minds to?

I'm saying no one will admit to be wrong in this discussion.

 

[Nanashrew]

That may come down to him turning down roles. I know Emily Rose (Elena from Uncharted) has said that she's been offered a bunch of game roles since Uncharted, but she always turns them down. In part because the people casting always want her to play Elena.

That's a good point, I can imagine some VAs do get annoyed over stuff like that. Type casting can really suck and is a very big part of the VA industry.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Surprised it was addressed. It is tiresome having to listen to people crying wolf everyday. Hopefully, future Uncharted 4 threads will be free of it.

Its also tiresome to see comments from people who are afraid of criticism.

 

[Fat4all]

I'm saying no one will admit to be wrong in this discussion.

I'm always wrong in every discussion on gaf.

Its also tiresome to see comments from people who are afraid of criticism.

There's a big difference between people who are "afraid of criticism" and people who don't want threads to go off track in the future.

 

[OccamsLightsaber]

This totally never happens.

 

[JumpCancel]

The problem with your line of thinking is that most of the results of that superiority are due to the prolong period of time that people had a far more suitable and privileged position than many minorities.

Most of the industry is white and therefore there is probably a lot of conscious and unconscious bias that may overrule your superiority claim.

Also I guess most people are hard on you because it really seems from that first post that you're implying that minorities are just not trying as hard as white people, but I'm just gonna take that as bad phrasing.

It was a line of thought and example, It wasn't my opinion that black VA's dont work as hard. It was a perspective. I wasn't implying anything malicious, nor did I mean to.

I was unaware of how great the divide was and can see how my statement may have been taken as meaning something beyond its original meaning.

 

[Raonak]

As an indian (not the native american kind), I can't think of many indian characters in games. And if a white/black/asian person happened to voice an indian character, i would struggle to see the problem.
Sure, it would be better to have an indian person voice it, but the implication that voice actors should only voice their race is completely misguided.

The real issue is that there should be more diversity in voice actors, but the race of voice actors should not matter. Unlike appearance, voice is not a genetic thing. It's purely cultural.

 

[Dictator93]

You asked "are white VAs underrepresented." I'm answering, yes in a way and saying "white" VAs who aren't of a Western European descent are pretty poorly represented.

Let's be honest, it goes even deeper in anglo-american-centric entertainment we have to day.
It is basically brits and americans, and not too many western europeans even in comparison.
Then these people some times do horrible accents when speaking english.

 

[PBY]

It was a line of thought and example, It wasn't my opinion that black VA's dont work as hard. It was a perspective. I wasn't implying anything malicious, nor did I mean to.

I was unaware of how great the divide was and can see how my statement may have been taken as meaning something beyond its original meaning.

Dude. The original meaning was, is and will continue to be bigoted. That's pretty much it, regardless of your intent.

 

[Ganzlinger]

I'm always wrong in every discussion on gaf.

You are one of the good guys

 

[dity]

Honestly, this topic makes me a little nervous, but I'm going to contribute.

I understand she was cast before the character was finalised, and I understand black people have played white characters too, but it still seems weird they consciously kept the original VA after deciding to create a realistic black character. I don't think it's the same as a black man playing a white ancient God of War or a woman playing a demanding animated child role.

Would I be out of line for saying this seems like "digital black face"? Like I get it's a fictional character and all, but I don't think people would be reacting the same way if a white woman was cast for a non-finalised role in a play or movie and then the creative decided the character was black so they dressed her up as such. That wouldn't fly despite it being also a fictional character, so I'm not sure why this flies too.

Eh I dunno, those are my thoughts. Maybe people can get me up to speed but those are my raw thoughts.

Also I have a question sort of unrelated to the topic about the video comments, I'll spoiler it maybe someone can PM me about it to fill me in:

Spoiler

Why do a bunch of heavily upvoted comments on the video say this website is a "pedo haven for pedophile apologists"? I lurked here for ages before becoming a member and it doesn't seem like it. I'm a CSA victim and any thread I've seen on pedophillia or stuff related to it has seen people making vile comments get banned. So, the Youtube comments don't make much sense to me. What's up with them? Is it just hate?

 

[Deleted member 30609]

I'm saying no one will admit to be wrong in this discussion.

The sole goal of a topic like this isn't to convince someone that you're right, it's to demonstrate to everybody reading why you think its important. It probably won't be epiphanic right away, but maybe it'll be the basis for an opinion that forms over time. Maybe someone will post something here that, for me, grows into a complete change of stance over time. It's worthwhile.

 

[Ragnorok64]

How the heck can I do a search on this thread for Phil LaMarr and get back no results?

 

[VGA222]

A white person does mocap and VA for a black character. How is this controversial? Am I missing something?

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

How the heck can I do a search on this thread for Phil LaMarr and get back no results?

I was going to mention him earlier but figured that he was already brought up.

 

[udivision]

How the heck can I do a search on this thread for Phil LaMarr and get back no results?

I'm pretty sure I mentioned him... or was it the other thread.

He voices the character in my avatar.

 

[Ghostmaster]

Honestly, this topic makes me a little nervous, but I'm going to contribute.

I understand she was cast before the character was finalised, and I understand black people have played white characters too, but it still seems weird they consciously kept the original VA after deciding to create a realistic black character. I don't think it's the same as a black man playing a white ancient God of War or a woman playing a demanding animated child role.

Would I be out of line for saying this seems like "digital black face"? Like I get it's a fictional character and all, but I don't think people would be reacting the same way if a white woman was cast for a non-finalised role in a play or movie and then the creative decided the character was black so they dressed her up as such. That wouldn't fly despite it being also a fictional character, so I'm not sure why this flies too.

Eh I dunno, those are my thoughts. Maybe people can get me up to speed but those are my raw thoughts.

Also I have a question sort of unrelated to the topic about the video comments, I'll spoiler it maybe someone can PM me about it to fill me in:

Spoiler

Why do a bunch of heavily upvoted comments on the video say this website is a "pedo haven for pedophile apologists"? I lurked here for ages before becoming a member and it doesn't seem like it. I'm a CSA victim and any thread I've seen on pedophillia or stuff related to it has seen people making vile comments get banned. So, the Youtube comments don't make much sense to me. What's up with them? Is it just hate?

Eh... that digital black face thing is going way too far.

The reason for not changing the VA is definitely financial and probably because of their relations with Laura. I mean it would be pretty bad if after the sessions they were like, well sorry but the character is now black and you're out of work and also way more expensive than changing the skin color.

As for the spoilers, those are usually just banned members venting their rage or people that hate GAF's strict modding policy, don't sweat it.

 

[CryptiK]

Honestly, this topic makes me a little nervous, but I'm going to contribute.

I understand she was cast before the character was finalised, and I understand black people have played white characters too, but it still seems weird they consciously kept the original VA after deciding to create a realistic black character. I don't think it's the same as a black man playing a white ancient God of War or a woman playing a demanding animated child role.

Would I be out of line for saying this seems like "digital black face"? Like I get it's a fictional character and all, but I don't think people would be reacting the same way if a white woman was cast for a non-finalised role in a play or movie and then the creative decided the character was black so they dressed her up as such. That wouldn't fly despite it being also a fictional character, so I'm not sure why this flies too.

Eh I dunno, those are my thoughts. Maybe people can get me up to speed but those are my raw thoughts.

Oh come on. You are way out of line. By your logic all Black Actors should never voice white people either. Getting rid of her after she made a point of how good she was and how right she was for the role has moral and ethical implications as well. It should all be based on the voice and performance nothing more, nothing less.

 

[ZangBa]

How the heck can I do a search on this thread for Phil LaMarr and get back no results?

Top 3 VA for sure. I didn't even know he played Ramza until recently, sounds nothing like him. Always does an incredible job as whatever race he plays.

 

[Kazaam]

If a lack of understanding of the social context led to you write something which others find in poor taste, and it is related to the discussion at hand, then it should be pretty easy to admit that the statement is poorly phrased and learn from it. Knowledge is power, understanding the world and how others think and feel will lead to better community in future. Taking the stubborn route of arguing to defend the "context" of statements made in ignorance instead is just a waste of time and reflects poorly on the person defending it. Trust me, I speak from experience. I've said a lot of dumb shit when I was younger too.

I think this should be kind of a mantra of any discussion and it shouldn't stop there. It's perfectly ok to be wrong and learn from it and unfortunately people forget that in these discussions. They become sort of trials where each side defends with whatever means necessary their case with the sole purpose of "winning" the argument. I think a lot of people get to the point where they know they're wrong but they keep going for the sake of "not losing". Knowledge is power, but nobody is omniscient and so many issues (like this one) are not so black and white (no pun intended). We all benefit from these discussions, no matter how wise. That's why we're having them. It's perfectly fine to be defensive of your own convictions, but I think it's important not to be too stubborn and be able to question your own beliefs.

 

[Ganzlinger]

The sole goal of a topic like this isn't to convince someone that you're right, it's to demonstrate to everybody reading why you think its important. It probably won't be epiphanic right away, but maybe it'll be the basis for an opinion that forms over time. Maybe someone will post something here that, for me, grows into a complete change of stance over time. It's worthwhile.

In the end, I know this. That's why I keep posting on GAF. lol

But sometimes it's frustrating. We have sides arguing in cycles. :/

Well, funny thing that probably everyone here will enjoy Nadine and Uncharted 4, character and game look fantastic.

 

[bishoptl]

Neogaf SJWs creating another non controversy mining for brownie points for defending minorities?

How long until these people get embarrassing enough to start banning?

lol

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

This totally never happens.

Love korra. I'm just as disappointed about that as I am this.

I'm always wrong in every discussion on gaf.



There's a big difference between people who are "afraid of criticism" and people who don't want threads to go off track in the future.

I'm sure the mods will stop it if it actually becomes a problem. I take with those kind of post because they want to limit the conversation to what they want it to be about.

 

[Fat4all]

I understand she was cast before the character was finalised, and I understand black people have played white characters too, but it still seems weird they consciously kept the original VA after deciding to create a realistic black character.

ND seem to value voice performances much higher than other studios. I doubt Neil would want to compromise what he feels is a perfect choice for his script, even after they settled on the designs for the characters of the game.

 

[Triggafinga]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned him... or was it the other thread.

He voices the character in my avatar.

Been mentioned. It was dismissed. They said only blacks have the privilege of playing a character of different skin color

Black characters can only have black VA

It will solve the black unemployment issue in California it seems...

 

[dity]

Eh... that digital black face thing is going way too far.

The reason for not changing the VA is definitely financial and probably because of their relations with Laura. I mean it would be pretty bad if after the sessions they were like, well sorry but the character is now black and you're out of work and also way more expensive than changing the skin color.

As for the spoilers, those are usually just banned members venting their rage or people that hate GAF's strict modding policy, don't sweat it.

Oh come on. You are way out of line. By your logic all Black Actors should never voice white people either.

I'm just trying to understand the controversy and reasoning out why race here matters more than race might when people who don't match the character voice more unrealistic roles - like super fantasy characters or roles too demanding for children.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Dude. The original meaning was, is and will continue to be bigoted. That's pretty much it, regardless of your intent.

This is the definition of "racism" that he adheres to:

Let me remind you what racism means:

a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

So him thinking that the only way to be racist is to hold that belief. He doesn't think an action can be racist itself, and so forth.

Seems like most anyone who takes offense to being called racist when they do something that's racist believe in that really narrow definition too. That's why I don't like that definition.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Let's be honest, it goes even deeper in anglo-american-centric entertainment we have to day.
It is basically brits and americans, and not too many western europeans even in comparison.
Then these people some times do horrible accents when speaking english.

Yeah, I guess I was trying to say that like with the Americans, they tend to be pretty divorced from their ethnic heritage.

So if you're not someone who identifies primarily as a American or Brit, you're pretty SOL when it comes to representation in media. Happen to be Northern European, Eastern European, Mediterranean , North African or Middle Eastern? Good luck!

It's a similar thing with Asian representation as well. On the surface to an outsider, it might not seem absolutely terrible. There are some prominent Asian actors and characters. And then you realize that the roles are basically monopolized by East Asia. Wheeeeeeee.

 

[User 73706]

call a discussion on a racially-charged debacle an outrage and then pretend an outrage over a remake's modified combat system is a discussion, brehs

 

[Darksol]

I didn't have a problem with it to begin with. Even less of a problem now that I've heard this perfectly suitable answer.

 

[Ghostmaster]

I'm just trying to understand the controversy and reasoning out why race here matters more than race might when people who don't match the character voice more unrealistic roles - like super fantasy characters or roles too demanding for children.

Well, because you can't take a job from an elf or a child( well you can from a child but hopefully he doesn't really need it).

Most of this thread is misconstrued to seem like it's all about racism, but actually the crux of it is the under-representation of minorities in the industry.

Also, what's with all the juniors committing account suicide, haven't seen them be this blatant in a long time.

 

[JHandlebars]

I can't believe this thread has so many replies. Some people will complain about literally anything. Makes us all look bad. It's a frickin actress. She's acting. Who cares what she looks like as along as she is good for the role. And news flash, she's one of the best. I think it's safe to say Neil knows what he's doing, he's the best director in games.

 

[chrislowe]

Soon someone is upset that stewie in family guy isnt voiced by a baby, or brian ismt a real talking dog.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

call a discussion on a racially-charged debacle an outrage and then pretend an outrage over a remake's modified combat system is a discussion, brehs

Yeah. It's such a drag-out fight just to have the discussion what with so many coming in to say it doesn't deserve to exist. It would be hard enough if there weren't anyone trying to repress it.

Soon someone is upset that stewie in family guy isnt voiced by a baby, or brian ismt a real talking dog.

^Case in point

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I didn't have a problem with it to begin with. Even less of a problem now that I've heard this perfectly suitable answer.

Would this change your mind?

Black people barely have any representation in the industry, on or off the screen. That's why it's important that when developers do decide to include black characters that they promote diversity behind the screen as well by casting black actors to fill those roles.

 

[Fat4all]

I didn't have a problem with it to begin with. Even less of a problem now that I've heard this perfectly suitable answer.

If you look through the thread (it's kinda long, tho) you'll notice that most people don't really have a problem with the decision after learning what's in the OP.

The discussion has since transformed into a talk about black/minority representation in voice acting in general.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Culturally and ethnically there is a huge number of whites that are underrepresented in the media, especially western media.

Yep when you add those 2 things it became a whole other ball game.

 

[Akara]

Soon someone is upset that stewie in family guy isnt voiced by a baby, or brian ismt a real talking dog.

You're not understanding the conversation or the situation.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Soon someone is upset that stewie in family guy isnt voiced by a baby, or brian ismt a real talking dog.

Yes equating adults of color to babies and dogs is always great for discourse.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

This totally never happens.

To be fair, Uncharted is a bit of a bigger game that will be played by a bigger audience. This game is obviously getting more attention than Korra. I dont think anyone thinks this is the first time it happened.

Some people are dissapointed that one of the coolest and amazing looking characters in one of the biggest games in gaming is a black woman and is being voiced by a white woman. Its not too hard to understand why some might be miffed that the role went to a white woman. Me? I'm cool with the decision ND made. I love her voice and I think the character is one of the most intriguing I've seen in years! I just dont find it hard to see how this being a point of discussion is important to people.

Racial equality and representation of minorities in mainstream media is a popular topic and how anyone is surprised by this being an issue is pretty surprising to me.

Its not like ND is the boogeyman here. Its just in the spotlight right now so it seems a good time as any to discuss it.

 

[dity]

ND seem to value voice performances much higher than other studios. I doubt Neil would want to compromise what he feels is a perfect choice for his script, even after they settled on the designs for the characters of the game.

I understand the aspect that he thought people wouldn't look through the character to her voice actor, but the "perfect" wording you chose makes me think. The character was cast before the character was finalised - after it was finalised, is it possible that she might not have been perfect for the role anymore? I don't think it's unheard of for characters to be recast if they significantly change. I just wonder if they considered maybe having a re-audition, including the original VA, to see if someone else might have been able to better suit the modified character.

 

[Kazaam]

Would this change your mind?

Do you have a problem with people that accept Druckmann's reasoning?

 

[Deleted member 325805]

He shouldn't even need to respond, but it was a great one.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

What should they change their minds to?



Read this:

The role was filled before the character was even determined to be who she ended up becoming. So I don't buy this argument at all. It would also be very uncalled for to fire someone merely because of the color of their skin, despite filling the role very well.

Even not knowing that information, I would probably come to the same conclusion. I believe in equal opportunity.

 

[Fat4all]

I understand the aspect that he thought people wouldn't look through the character to her voice actor, but the "perfect" wording you chose makes me think. The character was cast before the character was finalised - after it was finalised, is it possible that she might not have been perfect for the role anymore? I don't think it's unheard of for characters to be recast if they significantly change. I just wonder if they considered maybe having a re-audition, including the original VA, to see if someone else might have been able to better suit the modified character.

If the character is as it is, Neil probably thinks it's the right choice for his game.

I don't see how we could possibly know otherwise without the film "Being Neil Druckmann."

 

[CryptiK]

I understand the aspect that he thought people wouldn't look through the character to her voice actor, but the "perfect" wording you chose makes me think. The character was cast before the character was finalised - after it was finalised, is it possible that she might not have been perfect for the role anymore? I don't think it's unheard of for characters to be recast if they significantly change. I just wonder if they considered maybe having a re-audition, including the original VA, to see if someone else might have been able to better suit the modified character.

As far as everyone knows only her design was not finalised. The role for the character had been. So the characters design shouldn't really need to change for any reason unless she goes from female to male.

 

[chrislowe]

You're not understanding the conversation or the situation.

I thought someone was mad that the voiceactor didnt have the same skincolor as the character she was voicing.

If so its on point.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Do you have a problem with people that accept Druckmann's reasoning?

Nope. Just asking a question