• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

New build of Killzone Shadow Fall shows improvements

Mate, I promise I'll discuss both yours and James' comments because this is a decent debate, but in this video you've handpicked he's fucking firing a light machine gun full blast without any fucking nuance whatsoever (he doesn't have to feather the trigger at all) and the gun is completely stationary. It doesn't kick at all. He literally turns a corner, aims down the sight at close range, holds the trigger down with as much thought as I give a fart, and wins the encounter.

That is vapid, to me. That typifies every complaint I've had about this game so far.

I can't tell if you're joking, trolling me or just have issues with your eye sight. Please everybody watch the two links I posted of the two weapons with recoil and tell me those ADS sights aren't bouncing around all over the place.

I honestly think you have no idea what you're talking about. Add to that, you think 64 player multiplayer gaming is a "next gen gameplay" addition. It's like you started gaming yesterday....
 
Canon Shepard is just a younger, alternative universe version of Marcus from Gears of War. One fights in a war torn universe using brodacious warfare, the other fights on a war torn planet using brodacious warfare.

Hell, they even have the same 3rd person gameplay/cover system.

I'll ignore this post for the sake of this threads safety and direction.


So... Killzone looks really good. No wonder it is one of 3 games I preordered along with the PS4 system. Nice visuals...

NLFFWD, you didn't really say that... did you?
 
I can't tell if you're joking, trolling me or just have issues with your eye sight. Please everybody watch the two links I posted of the two weapons with recoil and tell me those ADS sights aren't bouncing around all over the place.

post links.
 
What makes you say that? None of the console KZ games have been that short.
I'm basically just being pessimistic.

Plus assuming they only started on this after Killzone 3 was released that leaves little more than two and a half years to make this game which isn't a long time to make a game using a brand new engine on brand new hardware with a deadline that's very set in stone.

Either way, the multiplayer will provide longevity.
 
I couldn't be more impressed. Looks stunning, enjoyable and for the first time in a demo ever it looked great to control.

Wonder if the guy playing is some competitive controller pro or if the DS4 is just that delicious?
 
Wow even off screen the new build is looking leaps and bounds better than the one shown at E3.

The most impressive launch title on PS4 for sure.
 
I can't tell if you're joking, trolling me or just have issues with your eye sight. Please everybody watch the two links I posted of the two weapons with recoil and tell me those ADS sights aren't bouncing around all over the place.

I honestly think you have no idea what you're talking about. Add to that, you think 64 player multiplayer gaming is a "next gen gameplay" addition. It's like you started gaming yesterday....
Yes, it 'bounces all over the place'. If 'the place' is the enemies body. The 'recoil' moves the sight by millimetres at random angles, all of which are so minute that it does not obstruct the player from just fucking blasting away like a blind goof to 'earn' his chirp.

And I'd rather not merge the two discussions because you're hopeless at expressing yourself when they're separate entities, let alone when you merge them into an emulsion of nonsense.

Dear Guerrilla:


Please never, ever listen to the people that want your game to play like Counterstrike.



Thanks!
Who said they wanted Killzone to play like CounterStrike?
 
I really wish that Sony would put some well mastered, direct feed gameplay videos on the PSN. I really want to be seeing this stuff like that.

Ah well, 47 days to go here in the UK!
 
I can't tell if you're joking, trolling me or just have issues with your eye sight. Please everybody watch the two links I posted of the two weapons with recoil and tell me those ADS sights aren't bouncing around all over the place.

He's right. Just look at the 3:25 mark of the video you posted. With that light machine gun, he went ballistic at the enemies knee for a good second with zero recoil. At the end (when the enemy dies) I don't know for sure if it was player control or the recoil when it jerked to the left.

Saying it was bouncing all over the place is an over-exaggeration.
 
post links.

Here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWfqnXLi0Ic&t=3m19s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWfqnXLi0Ic&t=3m32s

Yes, it 'bounces all over the place'. If 'the place' is the enemies body. The 'recoil' moves the sight by millimetres at random angles, all of which are so minute that it does not obstruct the player from just fucking blasting away like a blind goof to 'earn' his chirp.

And I'd rather not merge the two discussions because you're hopeless at expressing yourself when they're separate entities, let alone when you merge them into an emulsion of nonsense.

Erm, recoil is not supposed to obstruct the player from being able to pull the trigger and fire off his gun to earn a kill. In real life a gun does not move a metre when you pull the trigger, it moves very much in the way shown in the video's I linked. You can even often control recoil by putting opposing force depending on the direction of inertia and movement. Your posts genuinely baffle me.

I honestly have no idea what you actually expect a weapon to react like when shot. Can you actually link me to video examples of what you constitute as good feedback and recoil from weapon fire in a game? I'd love to see it.

EDIT: See the response below as well.

He's right. Just look at the 3:25 mark of the video you posted. Even with that light machine gun, he went ballistic at the enemies knee for a good second with zero recoil. At the end (when the enemy dies) I don't know for sure if it was player control or the recoil when it jerked to the left.

Saying it was bouncing all over the place is an over-exaggeration.

Yea you're right, with that weapon there is minimal recoil on the actual reticule, it's just the gun and sights that moves around a lot, which makes me think they just haven't mapped the recoil to the weapon animation yet. There seems to be a lot more with weapon in the second video I posted. But as I said before, GG did mention they have not finalised recoil and are still working on it.
 
iXnhKl8BQuveW.gif


All dem colours and particles, mhhhm mhm.
 
Dear Guerrilla:


Please never, ever listen to the people that want your game to play like Counterstrike.



Thanks!

I'd totally agree with this view if Killzone had ever lent it's encounter design to the slow methodical mechanics.

KZ2 almost had it in it's more open encounters. But anything in close-quarters was bad design. You couldn't turn around fast enough to deal with anyone 3 feet from you. And even if you did, the melee had the worst input lag ever.

In KZ3 they fixed the input lag and kept the heft but then aggravated encounter design even more, making it akin to a Call of Duty. Especially taking into account flying enemies and even more verticality.

And I've even seen examples of dying late after a bullet has landed, or shooting through walls in KZ:SF's multiplayer - which I can't put down to anything - but it's not good, and killing each other in KZ2 was a totally regular occurrence. The game's MP does not benefit from the heft nor whatever weird thing causes both competitors to die.

Anyone telling Guerilla they shouldn't take hints from some of the great shooters are not bastions of franchise identity or design purism. They're getting in the way of it being an amazing game.

I'm pretty optimistic about KZ:SF given what I've seen though.
 
Yea you're right, with that weapon there is minimal recoil on the actual reticule, it's just the gun and sights that moves around a lot, which makes me think they just haven't mapped the recoil to the weapon animation yet. There seems to be a lot more with weapon in the second video I posted. But as I said before, GG did mention they have not finalised recoil and are still working on it.

This is why I'm not worried about recoil. I've never seen a game that has that much weapon shake without having actual recoil. KZ2 lowered the recoil from prerelease to launch and lessened the animation as well so that it lined up with the movement. I expect the movement to line up with the recoil in the final build of SF. Changing recoil is just a few numerical values, they can do a lot of work on that in an afternoon.

iXnhKl8BQuveW.gif


All dem colours and particles, mhhhm mhm.

The sunlight turning the smoke from the player's gun red is awesome.
 
And now use GPGPU to make those dust particles react to the disturbances in the air created by bullets and the the moving OWL (and it's engine, if it is jet/propellor powered and not some magic anti-grav thing). KZ4 might actually have that.

Second gen first party titles will be so hot.
 
And now use GPGPU to make those dust particles react to the disturbances in the air created by bullets and the the moving OWL (and it's engine, if it is jet/propellor powered and not some magic anti-grav thing). KZ4 might actually have that.

Second gen first party titles will be so hot.

I think they already showed off some stuff like that with the volumetrics in one of the tech presentations of the February build.
 
I'd totally agree with this view if Killzone had ever lent it's encounter design to the slow methodical mechanics.

KZ2 almost had it in it's more open encounters. But anything in close-quarters was bad design. You couldn't turn around fast enough to deal with anyone 3 feet from you. And even if you did, the melee had the worst input lag ever.

In KZ3 they fixed the input lag and kept the heft but then aggravated encounter design even more, making it akin to a Call of Duty. Especially taking into account flying enemies and even more verticality.

And I've even seen examples of dying late after a bullet has landed, or shooting through walls in KZ:SF's multiplayer - which I can't put down to anything - but it's not good, and killing each other in KZ2 was a totally regular occurrence. The game's MP does not benefit from the heft nor whatever weird thing causes both competitors to die.

Anyone telling Guerilla they shouldn't take hints from some of the great shooters are not bastions of franchise identity or design purism. They're getting in the way of it being an amazing game.

I'm pretty optimistic about KZ:SF given what I've seen though.



They absolutely should take hints from other great shooters.

They should not, however, completely compromise the franchise's vision. This is how we end up with Resistance 2.
 
Yea you're right, with that weapon there is minimal recoil on the actual reticule, it's just the gun and sights that moves around a lot, which makes me think they just haven't mapped the recoil to the weapon animation yet. There seems to be a lot more with weapon in the second video I posted. But as I said before, GG did mention they have not finalised recoil and are still working on it.

With a game set into the future, I'm honestly not looking for major recoil on fired weapons. When I get this launch day, I'll be paying attention to the animation and hope that enemy hit detection matches the way they're being shot.

590979652.gif


I think hope they'll nail that with regular weapons. Hopefully with the rail gun as well.
 
Erm, recoil is not supposed to obstruct the player from being able to pull the trigger and fire off his gun to earn a kill. In real life a gun does not move a metre when you pull the trigger, it moves very much in the way shown in the video's I linked. You can even often control recoil by putting opposing force depending on the direction of inertia and movement.
Recoil, whatever force it applies, should force the player to feather his shots to maintain accuracy. That's how it's been deployed as a videogame mechanic at least. See: Killzone 2, Battlefield, CounterStrike.

In this video that you've handpicked the player just holds the trigger and achieves victory. He's doing this with an LMG in a short to mid range environment. Need I say more? Probably not. Will you still fail to grasp such a simple observation? Probably. Will me repeating my simple point cause you to take your hands from your ears? Definitely not.
Your posts genuinely baffle me.

If my posts are bemusing then this one of yours is that on a thermonuclear scale:

which makes me think they just haven't mapped the recoil to the weapon animation yet.

You've literally just propped your own deluded speculation up as an argument to why recoil isn't in the game in any substantial form.

They absolutely should take hints from other great shooters.

They should not, however, completely compromise the franchise's vision. This is how we end up with Resistance 2.
If we were to retroactively subtitle the previous mainline Killzone it'd be called 'Killzone 3: Compromised Vision'.

And such your post is laced with irony.

Killzone's vision is already scattered, they need to take what made Killzone 2 so strong and build on it. If anything Shadow Fall appears to head in the other direction.
 
Recoil, whatever force it applies, should force the player to feather his shots to maintain accuracy. That's how it's been deployed as a videogame mechanic at least. See: Killzone 2, Battlefield, CounterStrike.

In this video that you've handpicked the player just holds the trigger and achieves victory. He's doing this with an LMG in a short to mid range environment. Need I say more? Probably not. Will you still fail to grasp such a simple observation? Probably. Will me repeating my simple point cause you to take your hands from your ears? Definitely not.


If my posts are bemusing then this one of yours is that on a thermonuclear scale:



You've literally just propped your own deluded speculation up as an argument to why recoil isn't in the game in any substantial form.



I think it would do everyone well if you replied to his posts with the same respect that he's replying to yours. I understand that it gets a little bit heated, but I'm seeing an asymmetry here on the way you guys are treating each other.


Anyways, carry on.
 
Normally disregard off screen videos because they just make things look worse than they are but this actually still manages to look good. Can't wait to get my hands on this.
 
Anyone telling Guerilla they shouldn't take hints from some of the great shooters are not bastions of franchise identity or design purism. They're getting in the way of it being an amazing game.
Disagree whole heartedly. Just doing what other games are doing even if they are "great" is the fastest way to kill the player base. Medal of Honor much? People will just go back to CS, COD, Halo or whatever. Guerilla needs to create a unique feel for the game. If the feel offends people, too bad they have a vast variety of other games they can choose from.
 
I'm actually kind of glad that we have basically seen nothing of the single player. It's like all of us are going in blind and seeing all of these sure to be beautiful locations.

That being said, we will probably get a trailer soon that will spoil practically every location :(
 
I'm actually kind of glad that we have basically seen nothing of the single player. It's like all of us are going in blind and seeing all of these sure to be beautiful locations.

That being said, we will probably get a trailer soon that will spoil practically every location :(

Me too. I'm going to try to go on blackout for the GTTV spot but it'll probably be giffed and posted so much I won't be able to avoid it.
 
I think it would do everyone well if you replied to his posts with the same respect that he's replying to yours. I understand that it gets a little bit heated, but I'm seeing an asymmetry here on the way you guys are treating each other.


Anyways, carry on.

Just stop, this is embarrassing. Post your opinions if they are constructive to discussion but don't jump in and lower yourself to the role of white knight from a position of complete ignorance.

I can't tell if you're joking, trolling me or just have issues with your eye sight. Please everybody watch the two links I posted of the two weapons with recoil and tell me those ADS sights aren't bouncing around all over the place.

I honestly think you have no idea what you're talking about. Add to that, you think 64 player multiplayer gaming is a "next gen gameplay" addition. It's like you started gaming yesterday....
 
Just stop, this is embarrassing. Post your opinions if they are constructive to discussion but don't jump in and lower yourself to the role of white knight from a position of complete ignorance.


Like I said, carry on. Excuse me for trying to make the debate a bit more pleasant rather than combative and filled with backhanded insults, which you have started throwing my way as well. The tone had shifted from his side, I was trying to have you do the same for its own sake -- I can see it didn't work.

That's the last I'll say on the matter.
 
They probably have an internal near final build, I am guessing they will show that. Since they can edit out any crashes etc.

My guess as well. Man, it's going to be hard to stay out of Killzone threads after that special airs. GT and GG both have awful track records with spoilers.
 
yea so true. Now would a good time to go on a media black out

Killzone is the one series I can't keep up a black out for. It's like an addiction. I can black out for Naughty Dog, Quantic Dream, etc but Killzone media calls to me like no other games do. I'm going to try but I'll probably fail.
 
I really hope this game offers the full package, graphics, good storyline, music, and decent MP.

I'm starting to get totally hyped.
 
Like I said, carry on. Excuse me for trying to make the debate a bit more pleasant rather than combative and filled with backhanded insults, which you have started throwing my way as well. The tone had shifted from his side, I was trying to have you do the same for its own sake -- I can see it didn't work.

That's the last I'll say on the matter.

No, you implied that I was substantially more disrespectful to him than he was to me, whilst ignoring that he initially lowered the tone. And his last post did not improve said tone, neither did mine. I don't appreciate being accused of something that's absolutely incorrect. You aren't a moderator, if one tells me to change my tone I will absolutely do so.

I think what's more important to discussion is focussing on related topics. You say I lowered the tone to you, but I don't see how I did? Highlight what specifically is disrespectful? Just because I believe your previous post was ironic isn't disrespectful. It's my opinion.
 
That stuff isn't in those games because it shouldn't be basically.

I had an interesting conversation with someone involved in developing the Killzone universe a couple of years back, and the work that went into it is pretty impressive. But obviously that stuff just doesn't have a place in an eight hour shooter.

You have to give them a chance to present a universe in the context of a genre where world building actually surfaces to know if they've got the chops for it.

Killzone universe RPG ala Mass Effect?
 
iXnhKl8BQuveW.gif


All dem colours and particles, mhhhm mhm.

Oddly enough, their are no shadows cast by the gun shooting if you notice. Something that was in Kz2, was largely cut out in Kz3, and does not appear to be in this game.

I really thought was pretty cool in Kz2. The only other game to really do that was Metro 2033, even last light does not do that (no idea why not).
 
They absolutely should take hints from other great shooters.

They should not, however, completely compromise the franchise's vision. This is how we end up with Resistance 2.

That's a brilliant point that has hit right home. :P

In that case can we agree that Resistance 2 made MANY mistakes one of which was undeniably trying to make a CoD clone, but it wasn't that alone that made it awful?

Disagree whole heartedly. Just doing what other games are doing even if they are "great" is the fastest way to kill the player base. Medal of Honor much? People will just go back to CS, COD, Halo or whatever. Guerilla needs to create a unique feel for the game. If the feel offends people, too bad they have a vast variety of other games they can choose from.

If the feel offends the majority of people however, it's not conducive to it's success as a franchise.

And when people say more like CounterStrike, maybe don't take it to mean a carbon copy. Maybe take it to mean a mechanical interface that complements the kind of encounter design their team clearly WANTS to make.

Rather than maintaining that feel and struggling to find complementary encounters/level design/enemy design.

Because I'd say moreso than it's feel (and less so than it's aesthetic), a signature of KZ2 was it's brilliant AI. Which was quite amazing in close quarters.... If I could have aimed at them.
 
I didn't mean it for this game. Just someting built from the ground up on his view of what games should be.

But that's what I'm saying. Unless I've missed something (and I have skipped a lot to be honest) I see no proposition put forward at all. All I'm reading is complaining about what is there and no suggestions of what could be added.
 
Ok Arnie, I get where you're coming from about feathering shots now. But to clarify on that point, firstly, GG have already stated they are still sorting out recoil and that it is unfinished. Secondly, the main weapon in the video is an electric pulse rifle of sorts, it's unlikely to have much recoil, and will probably just have less damage or something else to counter that. Thirdly, excess recoil does not always necessarily mean you have to feather shots, without being overly boastful, I was a very good CSS player, played with clans in proper leagues etc. And even in CSS you can still spray, you just have to control the recoil by way of counter movement and balance (something that's almost impossible to tell on video, since it all occurs at a control input level)).

For example, there would be many a moment where you're surrounded by enemies that burst fire (or feathered shots) are simply not ideal and waste too much time, and instead you would do one long burst, but control it with a particular spray that would hit all targets. The great thing with CSS is that every gun had different recoil characteristics and it took skill to master them.


As I've said several times over, I really would not worry about that side of things. If devs themselves have stated that they're working on it, and the franchise itself has a flawless track record with it, there is really no reason to assume Shadow Fall will drop the ball on that front.
 
Mate, I promise I'll discuss both yours and James' comments because this is a decent debate, but in this video you've handpicked he's fucking firing a light machine gun full blast without any fucking nuance whatsoever (he doesn't have to feather the trigger at all) and the gun is completely stationary. It doesn't kick at all. He literally turns a corner, aims down the sight at close range, holds the trigger down with as much thought as I give a fart, and wins the encounter.

That is vapid, to me. That typifies every complaint I've had about this game so far.

I agree. This isn't a new complaint regarding this series either.
 
Top Bottom