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[Muchi Muchi Pink]

Glad to see they use BSD as OS. Wonder if it's a custom or FreeBSD. Probably a fbsd kernel with custom userland.

 

[shandy706]

• Not all features will be there day one, but they will try to support everything they are planing going forward.

This is what worries me most. Sony does not have a good track-record on delivering on promises in a timely manner, or at all in some cases.

 

[Graphics Horse]

They already used BSD for the PS3, no?

 

[Zoe]

Hmm. Is that so? I have no idea why they wouldn't implement it then unless they just didn't want to write a software music player which doesn't make sense since it's likely to support MP3s.

Maybe they want to use the PS4 as a trojan horse for a MiniDisc successor :O

 

[°°ToMmY°°]

I'm not saying you should wan't anything. I'm just saying that in 2013 the general public, not the hardcore, are going to wonder why the hell they should buy a new console that doesn't support any of their old games when their Ipads/Iphones do.

And then when the system launches with a practically empty store that has let's say "The Witness" people will wonder why the hell they would buy a game from a company that doesn't guarantee that digital goods will transfer over to the next system when they can get that same exact game for their Ipad and feel much more comfortable that it will work on Ipads for the rest of their lives.

Who says that? I have a mac and with the latest os i lost support to old powerpc software. When was that? Oh right, 2005. How much time has passed? Exactly.

You're the delusional one if you think your brand new ipad will always support old software and there's already an apple case to prove it (a powerpc to x86 transition, at that, just like the one happening between ps3 and ps4).

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I'm not saying you should wan't anything. I'm just saying that in 2013 the general public, not the hardcore, are going to wonder why the hell they should buy a new console that doesn't support any of their old games when their Ipads/Iphones do.

And then when the system launches with a practically empty store that has let's say "The Witness" people will wonder why the hell they would buy a game from a company that doesn't guarantee that digital goods will transfer over to the next system when they can get that same exact game for their Ipad and feel much more comfortable that it will work on Ipads for the rest of their lives.

It's going to be the complete opposite. The general public isn't going to care whatsoever the only outcry you will hear is the 2% of the hardcore

 

[i-Lo]

So is BSD the Berkeley Unix or simply put Unix which is the underlying code on which the OS being built upon making it rather lean in terms of footprint size compared to what it would have been had Sony made their proprietary OS (like PS3) with the same features?

 

[mugurumakensei]

They already used BSD for the PS3, no?

No. PS3 OS was written completely in-house which was the cause of some of the early problems.

 

[benny_a]

And then when the system launches with a practically empty store that has let's say "The Witness" people will wonder why the hell they would buy a game from a company that doesn't guarantee that digital goods will transfer over to the next system when they can get that same exact game for their Ipad and feel much more comfortable that it will work on Ipads for the rest of their lives.

That's an assumption made by you. Tablet's haven't been out this long to say this.
The first iPad was released in April 2010. The Xbox 360 in November 2005 and the PS3 in November 2006.

We'll see if you're correct. But we will only know this in 5 years. (Or we go by Apple's history of PPC -> X86 transition as stated by °°ToMmY°° and just assume that maybe 100% backwards compatibility forever is unlikely.)

It's going to be the complete opposite. The general public isn't going to care whatsoever the only outcry you will hear is the 2% of the hardcore

Given that there is so much trade-in going on, I doubt it's on many people's mind.

I wish the PS4 could play PS3 games. Not worth 150 dollars extra for me though.

 

[Takuya]

I'm not saying you should wan't anything. I'm just saying that in 2013 the general public, not the hardcore, are going to wonder why the hell they should buy a new console that doesn't support any of their old games when their Ipads/Iphones do.

And then when the system launches with a practically empty store that has let's say "The Witness" people will wonder why the hell they would buy a game from a company that doesn't guarantee that digital goods will transfer over to the next system when they can get that same exact game for their Ipad and feel much more comfortable that it will work on Ipads for the rest of their lives.

They're completely changing architectures with PS4. They're setting up the machine to allow future iterations of the platform to have the ability to easily retain some forms of software backwards compatibility. Having to include the PS3's cell processor into the mix would have been such a nightmare as far as architecture goes. Needing to accommodate the additional space on the board for the chip and buses, not to mention accommodations for heat dissipation and power... And even worse the UI. There will be no more XMB, that whole OS is gone.

 

[squidyj]

Not really. Devs/Publishers want to be able to rerelease old games. HD collections, PS1/2 Classics, and XBLA is good money. If PS4/Durango had full BC it would kill any type of future business. So even though it sucks for us, Sony has their hands tied.

I like how you said not really and then considered your point proven and jumped into full on conspiracy mode.

If I'm not being clear I'm saying that you completely failed to support your thought that trying to include cell does not constitute a major technical stumbling block in the production of the ps4.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Yeah well I wouldn't correlate removing BC with higher sales. I think it was the combination of cheaper price, slim model, free online that propelled the system to pick up sales.

My point was simply that people bought the console even without BC. Because at the end of the day most people buy new consoles to play new games. Yes, HD remasters also sell. But those games have also been rebuilt in a way that wasn't possible on the previous gen platform. I just don't think that the most people really value BC as much as some would like believe. That person that doesn't feel that there are enough games to justify buying a PS4 isn't suddenly going to change their mind because they can play previous games on it. They'll still just wait until there are actual PS4 games that they want. Because by that time they might actually be able to pay less for it.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Who says that? I have a mac and with the latest os i lost support to old powerpc software. When was that? Oh right, 2005. How much time has passed? Exactly.

You're the delusional one if you think your brand new ipad will always support old software and there's already an apple case to prove it (a powerpc to x86 transition, at that, just like the one happening between ps3 and ps4).

Tommy I was just going to bring the ole Power Mac up you completely read my mind. It's a great precedent because I knew so much of my already purchased software would no longer be compatible and I'm talking $250-$1200 software not $10-$60 games and the Mac community in general was okay with it because we all knew the compromise was worth it.

 

[Shambles]

Hmm. Is that so? I have no idea why they wouldn't implement it then unless they just didn't want to write a software music player which doesn't make sense since it's likely to support MP3s.

Licence $$$$ Same reason why the Wii doesn't play DVDs. Still, it baffles me that Sony is trying to create a media centre but is too cheap to pay for CD playback. Give me a break. And since Microsoft already dropped DVD playback from Windows all bets are off for the 360's successor.

 

[test_account]

Make devs happy dropping BC?

What about the customers?

The change in the architecture will probably lead to better games (thinking then about the technical aspects, the graphics and such), and maybe more developer support as well. The console can also be sold for a cheaper price since i guess they would have to include PS3 hardware in the PS4 if they wanted to have PS3 backward compability. Those things should benifit the consumers in general.

EDIT: Already mentioned by someone else i see

 

[fuzzyreactor]

It's going to be the complete opposite. The general public isn't going to care whatsoever the only outcry you will hear is the 2% of the hardcore

Pretty much this.

Average Joe isn't going to be "Well damn, I would love buy a ps4 to play this new killer shooter Killzone 4. Unfortunately, the deciding factor in my purchase is based on Sony's reluctance to allow me to play my old ps3 digital games on this new system. Welp, guess I'll go home and have another playthough of Journey."

 

[The Jason]

Anyone who is worried about CD playback, just rip your CD to WAV files in EAC then transfer them to your PS4. I rip every CD I own to WAV just in order to have an exact digital copy (which I can burn or convert if I need to).

 

[Zoe]

Anyone who is worried about CD playback, just rip your CD to WAV files in EAC then transfer them to your PS4. I rip every CD I own to WAV just in order to have an exact digital copy (which I can burn or convert if I need to).

I don't think anybody's really concerned about not being able to make use of their CD's. It's just a really odd restriction.

 

[Graphics Horse]

No. PS3 OS was written completely in-house which was the cause of some of the early problems.

They definitely use it to some degree or it wouldn't appear here:
http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-license/index.html

 

[SniperHunter]

BC is a waste of time, I am tired of the PS3. I want a new console NOW!!1

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

They definitely use it to some degree or it wouldn't appear here:
http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-license/index.html

They could have used the IP stack. Even MS Windows used it or still does. But this almost confirms FreeBSD or NetBSD. But my bet is on fbsd, AMD drivers are in the ports now.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

It's not really necessary for all the OS to be in memory at all times. 512 MB should be enough for all the always running features.

I can balloon up when the home button or whatever is pressed.

Well i am not talking about the present but future. Let´s say MS adds something very useful, but Sony could not copy it due to not enough memory for OS then it´s like XGC and party chat all over again. Saving 1 GB for OS is future proofing it from having the same problem the PS3 had.

 

[Justin]

Have they said anything about online play not requiring a subscription yet?

 

[mugurumakensei]

They definitely use it to some degree or it wouldn't appear here:
http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-license/index.html

That sounds like they used some of the libraries. Specifically, the communications (network) API is taken from NetBSD. They just put the FreeBSD license for the FreeBSD entry though.

 

[noobasuar]

Pretty much this.

Average Joe isn't going to be "Well damn, I would love buy a ps4 to play this new killer shooter Killzone 4. Unfortunately, the deciding factor in my purchase is based on Sony's reluctance to allow me to play my old ps3 digital games on this new system. Welp, guess I'll go home and have another playthough of Journey."

The problem with this is that average joe does not give a shit about killzone and the games he does care about will be cross gen.

 

[Canis lupus]

I'm not saying you should wan't anything. I'm just saying that in 2013 the general public, not the hardcore, are going to wonder why the hell they should buy a new console that doesn't support any of their old games when their Ipads/Iphones do.

And then when the system launches with a practically empty store that has let's say "The Witness" people will wonder why the hell they would buy a game from a company that doesn't guarantee that digital goods will transfer over to the next system when they can get that same exact game for their Ipad and feel much more comfortable that it will work on Ipads for the rest of their lives.

How many PS2 games have you played on the PS3? Or PS1 games on the PS2? How much more expensive would the PS4 be with the Cell? BC is a pointless feature that drives up costs, you buy the new system to play new games on it. If you already own a PS3, why do you care if the next console would play those games. In the HD era it is an even smaller problem then it was when we moved from SD to HD tvs.

 

[Mindlog]

So basically all PS4 games can be played on Vita EXCEPT those who use controller tracking or Move with the PS Eye.

I hope that means we can shut off that controller light entirely.

 

[benny_a]

The problem with this is that average joe does not give a shit about killzone and the games he does care about will be cross gen.

Which is a wholly different argument from which you originally started with.

If that is all you said I think you would have gotten way less responses. But I guess you're being noobasuar, just trolling for replies.

 

[°°ToMmY°°]

The problem with this is that average joe does not give a shit about killzone and the games he does care about will be cross gen.

So the games he's interested in will be available on the new console with shinier graphics and better support through a tablet companion app? Even better for him! No need to waste money on the crappy version, just buy the shiny one!

 

[Thai]

Thanks to danhese007 for sending onQ123 this article so he can tell us about it lol).

• They don't use HSA (I THINK) but their own optimizations because AMD wasn't ready or something? But they are using OpenGL to the point of "full access to the hardware."
  
• They mention having to drop BC as being a necessary evil to make sure devs will be happy going forward.
• They used what they learned from the Cell to make a powerful console. The did this by having to modify the GPU, etc (via ACE for proper compute processing).
• He also talks about 4k gaming, and he said they are focusing on 1080p, but he did say that they can, for example, put the OS UI in 4k, but render the game in 1080p.
• With that, he says they'd like to save as many resources as possible to ensure that 1080p because having the 4k UI alone will take 10 GB/s.
• They also said support for CD was dropped because of how the new DVD/BD player reads the data? (speed?) Redacted
  
• He also mentions the custom on CPU chip and monitors all I/O systems (confirms ARM TrustZone).
• Mentions background downloads and smaller initial sizes and play while downloading.
• He mentions using BD and Hard drive combo for game reads and how to cut down load times.
• Cerny also discusses the dedicated audio and video compression/decompression hardware for sharing videos and vita remote play.
• The Android/iOS Playstation App lets you access all things Playstation. Store, game info, etc.
• Regarding adding Vita remote play: "almost no overhead, without pain whatsoever, you will be able to Remote Play a game of PS4."
• So basically all PS4 games can be played on Vita EXCEPT those who use controller tracking or Move with the PS Eye.
• They also talk about off-TV play.
• Not all features will be there day one, but they will try to support everything they are planing going forward.
• Also, OS is BSD, so they can make full use of multi-tasking.

I can hear him say these things in his smooth, smooth voice.

 

[Toki767]

I wonder which features won't make it for launch. I'd imagine Gaikai demos is one of them. Streaming probably might be another.

 

[fuzzyreactor]

The problem with this is that average joe does not give a shit about killzone and the games he does care about will be cross gen.

Which has nothing to do with your argument. Replace Killzone with w/e relevant game it should be and it still stands.

 

[Cidd]

The problem with this is that average joe does not give a shit about killzone and the games he does care about will be cross gen.

Can I borrow your crystal ball for a sec, I want to have the next Powerball numbers ready.

 

[Eusis]

So PS1 playback may be possible? That's very good, I wanted them to at least get in what BC was reasonably doable (maybe the PS4 will also give the extra oomph to take the PS2 emulator from "possibly spotty" to "more than good enough"?), but I also can't help but think that while CD PLAYBACK in a PS4 is kind of ridiculous, CD RIPPING is worth having and thus why it can support CDs.

 

[mrklaw]

What's 'almost' no overhead? I'd have thought that the video compression hardware would handle that, so should be no overhead. I hope that doesn't mean support is optional - should be mandatory and handled by the OS hopefully

 

[H_Prestige]

So PS1 playback may be possible? That's very good, I wanted them to at least get in what BC was reasonably doable (maybe the PS4 will also give the extra oomph to take the PS2 emulator from "possibly spotty" to "more than good enough"?), but I also can't help but think that while CD PLAYBACK in a PS4 is kind of ridiculous, CD RIPPING is worth having and thus why it can support CDs.

If they can get ps2 emulation on ps3, then ps4 should be cake

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

They mention having to drop BC as being a necessary evil

Eh. It was necessary but certainly not evil.

 

[Takuya]

The problem with this is that average joe does not give a shit about killzone and the games he does care about will be cross gen.

Uh huh... And killzone is the only next gen game on PS4.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

BSD is probably the best news in this thread.

 

[noobasuar]

Which has nothing to do with your argument. Replace Killzone with w/e relevant game it should be and it still stands.

I'm just saying in your fantasy land where people don't care about BC, they won't buy a console for a game that no one practically cares about. and there is no relevant game to replace it with atm.

 

[Devilgunman]

[*]They mention having to drop BC as being a necessary evil to make sure devs will be happy going forward.

Not sure what this means. Having BC makes devs unhappy?

 

[AranhaHunter]

Sounds to me like they are building their OS on top of Unix. That's a good thing right? How was the Vita/PS3 OS built? Same way?

 

[benny_a]

Not sure what this means. Having BC makes devs unhappy?

Basing the PS4 architecture around the cell going forwards vs. X86 (which would necessitate dropping BC.)

 

[Zoe]

Not sure what this means. Having BC makes devs unhappy?

They sacrificed the PS3 architecture in favor of architecture that devs would like.

 

[fuzzyreactor]

I'm just saying in your fantasy land where people don't care about BC, they won't buy a console for a game that no one practically cares about. and there is no relevant game to replace it with atm.

Yea because the ps4 isn't ever going to get a relevant game.....cmon dude

Also, you are not psychic. Killzone franchise easily has the potential to be a system seller.

 

[phosphor112]

• Not all features will be there day one, but they will try to support everything they are planing going forward.

This is what worries me most. Sony does not have a good track-record on delivering on promises in a timely manner, or at all in some cases.

Here is the translation of the quote.

Cerny: Indeed, we are considering the ability to have control over the network instead. However, "Day1" all of these features but not have all the features from (the first day of release). Please understand all, and we are prepared as a feature that can be supported as a platform.
In either case, the ability to activate the game play through social relationships are supposed to be a very big weapon.
Image ... but. Please consider, that nothing like that can have on the living room wall, separating between friends when playing the game. Hundreds of friends and, at intervals such that the game is near, it is a feeling like playing the game over the network. This is why we want to make that bridge. Friends and the real world is, to enjoy actually met. We support all the features of several years, required for this purpose.

I explained it the best I could, but I honestly think you guys are reading too much into it.

 

[Killing_Joke]

Basing the PS4 architecture around the cell going forwards vs. X86 (which would necessitate dropping BC.)

Well if that's the case I'm glad they dropped it.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Here is the translation of the quote.



I explained it the best I could, but I honestly think you guys are reading too much into it.

So Vita stuff Day 1 like I thought. Magical things I can't comprehend by year 2?

 

[farisr]

It actually says the PS4 can play CDs, just not audio CDs.

Not holding my breath for PS1 BC, though.

I personally believe that PS1 BC is nearly guaranteed. I doubt that they would want to waste all that gaikai server space on PS1 games for BC, not to mention they have an entirely software based solution for PS1 BC running on all PS3s right now anyways so it's not like they require hardware components to get it to work.

But yeah, PS2 compatibility is definitely still up in the air, even though many have figured out a way to get nearly any ps2 game to work on all ps3 models, which means there is a software only solution for that too that sony has developed. But since that has never been offered to us by Sony at all, it is really unlikely.

It would be great if Sony decided on allowing PS1/PS2 compatibility through software emulation on the ps4. And left the gaikai streaming BC to ps3 titles only.

(I only care about ps1 compatibility really, it's rare that I feel like playing a ps2 game, most of the ones I cared about got a hd remake, whereas there are a good amount of ps1 games that will not get a remake that I still go back to).

 

[gcubed]

"They mention having to drop BC as being a necessary evil to make sure devs will be happy going forward."

Why didn't he just simply say Cell/RSX caused problems? Going by that quote alone its seems like they could have put HW BC, but couldn't because of business reasons.

well, they could have put in HW BC, but couldn't because of business reasons. Those business reasons are failure of the gaming division