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[antonz]

just liike they did with the original DS?

The transition from the DS to DSi saw a significant step up overall in raw power but the GPU remained the same.

If with the 3DS they did indeed underclock the GPU with everything else there could be potential midlife performance gains there.

 

[Bizzyb]

3G for 3DS??

This also struck me

The 3DS will have a persistent 3G connection and Iwata was simply alluding to the fact that not every inch of the Earth will have coverage and that you can turn off the connectivity as a way to save battery life.

As I recall, doesn't the 3DS actually have a Wi-fi on and off switch?

Hmmm....

 

[Michan]

I can't believe people are disappointed with the graphics. It's the new Nintendo console; what did you expect? The fact that, despite being displayed in their most primitive of forms, the games look better than just about anything available on any other portable device says a lot for what it is. At least this time it will be consistent with (if not ahead of) what most other platforms are putting out, unlike the N64 Portable which launched head-to-head with the PSP and other ill-fated devices.

 

[antonz]

I can't believe people are disappointed with the graphics. It's the new Nintendo console; what did you expect? The fact that, despite being displayed in their most primitive of forms, the games look better than just about anything available on any other portable device says a lot for what it is. At least this time it will be consistent with (if not ahead of) what most other platforms are putting out, unlike the N64 Portable which launched head-to-head with the PSP and other ill-fated devices.

Exactly and as has been pointed out battery life is so very important and as we see with these smartphones that are more powerful they go through battery power faster than a fat person does a box of twinkies when gaming.

The PSP2 is destined to fail hard at battery life if all Sony is going to do is approach the Tim Allen approach of More Power

 

[Little Green Yoda]

More RAM is possible though since they did it with the DSi, and at 128MB they would certainly have enough to pull off such a feature no? It would be a pretty good selling point for a redesign with nicer cameras as well or something.

But then new games that take advantage of the extra RAM wouldn't be playable on the first gen 3DS handhelds, right? That's probably a big reason why DSi only games never appeared at retail...

 

[WillyFive]

I can't believe people are disappointed with the graphics. It's the new Nintendo console; what did you expect? The fact that, despite being displayed in their most primitive of forms, the games look better than just about anything available on any other portable device says a lot for what it is. At least this time it will be consistent with (if not ahead of) what most other platforms are putting out, unlike the N64 Portable which launched head-to-head with the PSP and other ill-fated devices.

Nintendo consoles are historically associated with OMG AWESOME graphics from the start. The DS and Wii were the recent exceptions.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I'm assuming you're joking, but it's really big. I've a complete Linux distribution with many many applications on an old 256MB USB key...

you are assuming I know alot about computers. :lol but no, I meant what functions would be included since people are saying Nintendo has something big in terms of OS.

 

[sfog]

As I recall, doesn't the 3DS actually have a Wi-fi on and off switch?

Hmmm....

It wouldn't surprise me if it did, espacially since you could disable Wi-Fi on the DSi/DSi XL through its options menu if you so desired.

 

[Kuran]

Exactly and as has been pointed out battery life is so very important and as we see with these smartphones that are more powerful they go through battery power faster than a fat person does a box of twinkies when gaming.

The PSP2 is destined to fail hard at battery life if all Sony is going to do is approach the Tim Allen approach of More Power

I see nobody complaining about the battery life on the iPad, and that thing has a huge screen and relatively powerful CPU. Just saying..

 

[[Nintex]]

I believe Iwata debunked the 3G rumor earlier, stating that it was too expensive or that it was something they're might implement in future hardware. Might've been during one of those Investors Q&A's.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I see nobody complaining about the battery life on the iPad, and that thing has a huge screen and relatively powerful CPU. Just saying..

How much does an iPad cost again?

 

[Vic]

I see nobody complaining about the battery life on the iPad, and that thing has a huge screen and relatively powerful CPU. Just saying..

and two HUGE batteries.

edit: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad-Teardown/2183/3

 

[turnbuckle]

I see nobody complaining about the battery life on the iPad, and that thing has a huge screen and relatively powerful CPU. Just saying..

And the thing is huge in comparison. I'm sure the battery is much larger than the 3ds battery

 

[Nezzhil]

The DF article is plenty of mistakes.

First of all, the ARM11 is used in the original iPhone and iPhone 3G and is the logical evolution.

The PSP only could use 32MB of RAM in games.

It's false the not existence spects of PICA200 100MHz GPU. http://people.csail.mit.edu/kapu/EG_08/Mobile3D_EG08.pdf

And continues...

The article is... meh. :-/

 

[Vic]

The DF article is plenty of mistakes.

First of all, the ARM11 is used in the original iPhone and iPhone 3G and is the logical evolution.

The PSP only could use 32MB of RAM in games.

And continues...

The article is... meh. :-/

Digital Foundry.

 

[Pimpbaa]

and two HUGE batteries.

Yeah, they take up the majority of the space inside the ipad. And that's the only way you can really get decent battery life with something as powerful as apple's A4 chip at the moment (that or underclocking it).

 

[antonz]

Its important to note too the primary function of the Ipad is not gaming. Tests have shown the bettery life drops as much as half when you start doing intensive things on the Ipad.

Its the same way with my macbook pro. if im word processing or browing non flash sites it lasts a long ass time on a charge. Moment I hit a flash site or do more than type My battery life is about half.

 

[Koren]

Nintendo consoles are historically associated with OMG AWESOME graphics from the start. The DS and Wii were the recent exceptions.

Others exceptions are GB and NES.

Care to remind me what are the four most successful Nintendo consoles?

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Nintendo consoles are historically associated with OMG AWESOME graphics from the start. The DS and Wii were the recent exceptions.

Their only console that blew away the competition at launch was the NES. There being no other real competition at the time.

Game Boy: Always considered shitty-looking, even without competition

SNES: Marginally better than Genesis, on average

GBA: Nice for a handheld, except for no goddamn backlight

N64: Generally better than PS1, but everyone is way more impressed by FMVs on the PS1 at the time anyway, however bullshit that may be.

GCN: In between PS2 and Xbox

DS: Well short of PSP

Wii: Well short of 360/PS3

 

[ILikeFeet]

It wouldn't surprise me if it did, espacially since you could disable Wi-Fi on the DSi/DSi XL through its options menu if you so desired.

it's on the right side of it

 

[Instro]

Their only console that blew away the competition at launch was the NES. There being no other real competition at the time.

Game Boy: Always considered shitty-looking, even without competition

SNES: Marginally better than Genesis, on average

GBA: Nice for a handheld, except for no goddamn backlight

N64: Generally better than PS1, but everyone is way more impressed by FMVs on the PS1 at the time anyway, however bullshit that may be.

GCN: In between PS2 and Xbox

DS: Well short of PSP

Wii: Well short of 360/PS3

Seems like the 3DS fits back into the SNES, N64, GCN mold . Not super top of the line, but not way underpowered either like the DS and Wii were/are.

 

[redbarchetta]

I see nobody complaining about the battery life on the iPad, and that thing has a huge screen and relatively powerful CPU. Just saying..

Yeah, and it's the size of a geo-metro.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I don't think 3G in the 3DS is likely, although if they've held back a big feature to announce on the 29th that would be the obvious candidate.

A Kindle-style model wouldn't work as the data being downloaded would be far higher, and need a much higher surcharge.

2 different sku's iPad style though isn't out of the question, one 3G enabled and one not. However I think the whole connectivity on/off thing to save battery life is just referring to Wi-Fi and the bluetooth tag feature.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Seems like the 3DS fits back into the SNES, N64, GCN mold . Not super top of the line, but not way underpowered either like the DS and Wii were/are.

Which is just fine. Developers could do some unholy things with the GCN hardware (see: Resi 4, Mario Sunshine, Metroid Prime 2) over time, so this means good things for the 3DS's future.

 

[antonz]

Id still kill for a Rogue Squadron on 3DS.

 

[Koren]

I see nobody complaining about the battery life on the iPad, and that thing has a huge screen and relatively powerful CPU. Just saying..

As other have said:

The battery of the iPad weight 148g.
The whole DSL e.g. is 214g.

Batteries have a wattage/gram. iPad has a battery which is more than three time bigger in capacity (6600 vs 2000), and most probably also three times heavier. So it's frankly difficult to compare them.

 

[Vic]

Good lord, next week is so far away.

 

[WillyFive]

Their only console that blew away the competition at launch was the NES. There being no other real competition at the time.

Game Boy: Always considered shitty-looking, even without competition

SNES: Marginally better than Genesis, on average

GBA: Nice for a handheld, except for no goddamn backlight

N64: Generally better than PS1, but everyone is way more impressed by FMVs on the PS1 at the time anyway, however bullshit that may be.

GCN: In between PS2 and Xbox

DS: Well short of PSP

Wii: Well short of 360/PS3

That's their specs, but not the graphics they produced.

From SNES you had Mode 7, which blew people away. From N64 you had AA and texture filtering, which blew people away. From Gamecube you had this at launch:

And now with 3DS we have stereo 3D.

 

[Rich!]

Id still kill for a Rogue Squadron on 3DS.

I'd kill for a downloadable version of Wario Land Virtual Boy. In black and white rather than unholy burnyoureyesout Red and Black though.

Good lord, next week is so far away.

It's going to be an awesome week. For me, anyhow - Dexter Season 5 starts on the 26th! Oh yes.

 

[Vinci]

As other have said:

The battery of the iPad weight 148g.
The whole DSL e.g. is 214g.

Batteries have a wattage/gram. iPad has a battery which is more than three time bigger in capacity (6600 vs 2000), and most probably also three times heavier. So it's frankly difficult to compare them.

I look forward to Nintendo's handheld after this one being powered by a car battery.

 

[lostinblue]

Not to say "nintendo was always known for omg graphics" but I think you're taking their credit a little too much. They were always good for their price-range, IMO, which is quite under that of PC's and more expensive hardware and that's a compliment.

Game Boy: Always considered shitty-looking, even without competition

The principle of withered technology, yes. But it still was a portable NES back in 1989, and I'd argue it's best games look way better despite the grayscale palette than it's NES counterparts. Link's Awakening for the GB looks way better than Zelda on the NES for instance, as does Mario Land 2 and Mario Land 3 - Wario Land next to almost any NES game.

Of course it was artistry that made it possible, but still. It was a good platform for it's time, balanced and all of that (portable without having to take a army of batteries with you, too). One could argue it lasted for too long, but it's 1989 hardware still; it has to be judged as such and not from your seemingly "96" vision, by then the GB was really old and fatigued (but pokémon happened).

SNES: Marginally better than Genesis, on average

Not really, color depth and mode 7 made quite a difference. And I'd argue it wasn't only "marginally better" everyone could see the Genesis was having a hard time picking up from a technical/feature standpoint althought the software for it was still good enough to keep it going.

GBA: Nice for a handheld, except for no goddamn backlight

N64: Generally better than PS1, but everyone is way more impressed by FMVs on the PS1 at the time anyway, however bullshit that may be.

Both GBA and N64 were quite good for what they were, even if the N64 was a bottleneck pitt of despair, it was back when that extra hurdle for a little more juice was worth it; no way PSone could achieve OoT's hyrule field and stuff... and in the end those N64 games made more of an impact than any PSone game going by the best games ever lists, in part because of what the N64 enabled as much as it was criticized at the time.

GCN: In between PS2 and Xbox

Considering Microsoft lost money with every Xbox they sold until they phased it out qhile Nintendo was selling gamecube's at $99 and making a profit... (while the PS2 couldn't possibly be sold at that price) the GC was quite an achievement for it's time. And one could argue it was not really that inferior, just different strenghts; it pulled out the bigger polycounts of it's generation at 30 and 60 frames (willst the xbox was a bottleneck monster) and was a texturing beast. The best designed hardware of it's generation, even if it was RAM/DVD storage starved.

DS: Well short of PSP

Wii: Well short of 360/PS3

Sure.

 

[redbarchetta]

I'd kill for a downloadable version of Wario Land Virtual Boy. In black and white rather than unholy burnyoureyesout Red and Black though.

I never really thought about it before...but the 3DS actually could be used to port Virtual Boy games, some of which are actually quite decent. Hell, the dual D-pads (which were used in like one game) can even be mimicked using the face buttons.

 

[KAL2006]

Seems like the 3DS fits back into the SNES, N64, GCN mold . Not super top of the line, but not way underpowered either like the DS and Wii were/are.

GBA - around SNES level
DS - around N64 level
3DS - around GameCube level (hopefully)

So it seems every new handheld generation has around the power of the last console generation. The reason people are complaining is because PSP changed the game, it was extremely powerful at the time, however that came at a cost, which was shitty battery life. If the 3DS is around GameCube level then I would be happy with that. However I am still not convinced that 3DS is around GameCube level, until I see in game gameplay footage that looks as good as GameCube games then I will be convinced, at the moment there is only gameplay of Kid Icarus and Nintendogs.

 

[Rich!]

I never really thought about it before...but the 3DS actually could be used to port Virtual Boy games, some of which are actually quite decent. Hell, the dual D-pads (which were used in like one game) can even be mimicked using the face buttons.

If Nintendo do go along with a 'Virtual Handheld' service (of which they blatantly will do), Gameboy/GBC/GBA and Virtual Boy games are a total no-brainer.

However I am still not convinced that 3DS is around GameCube level, until I see in game gameplay footage that looks as good as GameCube games then I will be convinced, at the moment there is only gameplay of Kid Icarus and Nintendogs.

Not seen this then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qVTfi06suw

Confirmed by Capcom in an article last week to be 100% rendered in real-time. Should make you convinced.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I never really thought about it before...but the 3DS actually could be used to port Virtual Boy games, some of which are actually quite decent. Hell, the dual D-pads (which were used in like one game) can even be mimicked using the face buttons.

The 3D effect would probably suck balls compared to actual made-for-3DS games though. Same way that the movies with 3D added in post-production aren't gonna look as good on 3DS as the actual games either.

 

[Koren]

I look forward to Nintendo's handheld after this one being powered by a car battery.

Why?

First, there's increase in battery technology, that increase the wattage/gram. Li-Po is not comparable to older techs. That's nice for electric cars, also...

Second, the processor tend to be able to do more and more with the same wattage. In fact, if you think about energy, you don't need much energy to change memory states, so most of the processor electric consumptions are just current leaks, joule effect and so on.

But I really doubt that iPad and 3DS have very different battery technology, and you couldn't fit a battery of the size and weight of the one in the iPad in a 3DS. So either you decrease the battery life or you decrease the consumption...

 

[Vinci]

I never really thought about it before...but the 3DS actually could be used to port Virtual Boy games, some of which are actually quite decent. Hell, the dual D-pads (which were used in like one game) can even be mimicked using the face buttons.

I remember either reading it on GAF or elsewhere, someone said, "The 3DS is yet another part of Nintendo's strategy for proving that they've never made a mistake: That the GameCube was not a mistake because of the Wii, and now, that even the damn Virtual Boy wasn't a mistake because of the 3DS."

I don't know, I find the mental imagery funny. Like Nintendo has some shrine of their failures and are constantly trying to find ways to get their revenge on each one's behalf.

I imagine the N64 controller will come back to haunt us someday as well.

EDIT @ Koren: It was a joke, man.

 

[MrBelmontvedere]

The transition from the DS to DSi saw a significant step up overall in raw power but the GPU remained the same.

If with the 3DS they did indeed underclock the GPU with everything else there could be potential midlife performance gains there.

I think we're looking at a situation where 3DS as it exists at launch is what games will be developed for.

if there is an upgrade released later then great, but it will get no (or superficial) software support.

if software can simply overclock, or un-underclock the 3DS hardware at will then that is something they will have to account for from the start. meaning the thermal characteristics and power envelope will be different than it would be otherwise, meaning the hardware will be more expensive for nintendo to have produced than otherwise. so is nintendo actually making a more expensive system than they are admitting? it's possible, but I highly doubt it.

 

[perfectchaos007]

So just 8 days till the announcement? Maybe with the lower specs than were expected that will mean we get a release for this year in the USA??

I can dream right?

 

[Koren]

I imagine the N64 controller will come back to haunt us someday as well.

It was a mistake to begin with? ^_^ I really like the fact that you can play 3D and 2D with a pretty comfortable grip. I still find that most recent pad choose one or the other, and can't be realy comfortable for both, which is logical (DC manages to be uncomfortable with both, to me, but that's my opinion, and I love the console)

The only really really bad thing with this pad is the way the stick wear out (and to a lesser extend the small C-buttons)

EDIT @ Koren: It was a joke, man.

Sorry ^_^ (double if the N64 pad was also a half-joke)

 

[Vinci]

so is nintendo actually making a more expensive system than they are admitting? it's possible, but I highly doubt it.

I doubt it as well. It doesn't flow with their design sensibilities. Price first, components based on price.

It was a mistake to begin with? ^_^ I really like the fact that you can play 3D and 2D with a pretty comfortable grip. I still find that most recent pad choose one or the other, and can't be realy comfortable for both, which is logical (DC manages to be uncomfortable with both, to me, but that's my opinion, and I love the console)

The only really really bad thing with this pad is the way the stick wear out (and to a lesser extend the small C-buttons)

To each his own, but I specifically never bought an N64 because of that damn controller. I hated it. I'd play games at my friends' houses on it and just... it was a miserable experience and I felt it harmed every great game the system got in some way or another.

 

[Busaiku]

So just 8 days till the announcement? Maybe with the lower specs than were expected that will mean we get a release for this year in the USA??

I can dream right?

6 days.
Logic dictates that this would see a November 21 release in the US.

 

[Vic]

GBA - around SNES level
DS - around N64 level
3DS - around GameCube level (hopefully)

So it seems every new handheld generation has around the power of the last console generation. The reason people are complaining is because PSP changed the game, it was extremely powerful at the time, however that came at a cost, which was shitty battery life. If the 3DS is around GameCube level then I would be happy with that. However I am still not convinced that 3DS is around GameCube level, until I see in game gameplay footage that looks as good as GameCube games then I will be convinced, at the moment there is only gameplay of Kid Icarus and Nintendogs.

The 3DS design is totally different from the Gamecube.

 

[AceBandage]

So, I've been gone all day.

Are people still comparing the 3DS to the Dreamcast?

 

[brain_stew]

WTF are you talking about? The Xbox had more than enough polygon-crunching power to create games with large, complex enviornments. (In fact its GPU can handle almost twice as many raw polygons as the PS2's.) I'm not debating which graphical approach is better, I'm just skeptical about whether the 3DS will even be capable of running games such as the Jak or PS2 Ratchet games or Transformers Armada or Far Cry Instincts or Oddworld Stranger's Wrath.

Maybe the PS2 doesn't have the shader architecture to reproduce the effects used in Revelations exactly, but it can still use its own effects to come up with something which looks equally impressive. But if the 3DS' GPU is as polygon-deficient as reported, then it won't have any games which even remotely resemble the ones I listed above.

It can? Then where's the evidence? Theoretical specs are worthless and all of the really impressive Xbox games had mediocre geometary counts and ran at 30fps (at best). Which Xbox games were pushing the same levels of geometary as the Jak or God of War games while running at 60fps? Does everyone forget the God awful framerate of the Xbox conversion of MGS2?

The titles that people were most impressed with on the Xbox just weren't doing anything particularly incredible in terms of geometary and framerate. Doom 3 and Riddick looked fantastic but they were both 30hz titles with low end PS2 (or worse) levels of geometary. Well we already have 3DS titles that blow Doom 3 and Riddick away.

Anyway, all of this is purely academic since we still don't have the slightest clue as to what the raw vertex througput of the system is, nevermind what it can manage ingame. The 133mhz tells us very little when we have absolutely no clue as to which variant of the PICA200 class of GPUs the 3DS has and that figure can mean all sorts of things depending on who is presenting it. The PSP didn't come anywhere remotely close to its theoretical 33m polys/s figure in more than half a dozen games at most whereas several GCN titles comfortably exceeded Nintendo's official figures while packing plenty of other effects to boot.

Is the hardware as "flexible" as last generation home consoles? Probably not but come on have such fantastic and efficent shader hardware in such a low power and low cost device has to come at a price. Maybe you prefer hardware that puts raw vertex count above all else, personally I absolutely do not and I seriously doubt that very many end users will either. Have we ever had a whole bunch of people mistaking PS2/PS2 titles for 360 titles all the while being in constant disbelief that the demo has to be prerendered? I don't think we have but that's precisely what happened when Capcom showcased the RE demo despite its unimpressive vertex count.

 

[Vinci]

So, I've been gone all day.

Are people still comparing the 3DS to the Dreamcast?

Hell no. We're comparing it to the iPhone, the iPad, and ... the PSP. And it doesn't look good compared to any of them! =(

 

[antonz]

I think we're looking at a situation where 3DS as it exists at launch is what games will be developed for.

if there is an upgrade released later then great, but it will get no (or superficial) software support.

if software can simply overclock, or un-underclock the 3DS hardware at will then that is something they will have to account for from the start. meaning the thermal characteristics and power envelope will be different than it would be otherwise, meaning the hardware will be more expensive for nintendo to have produced than otherwise. so is nintendo actually making a more expensive system than they are admitting? it's possible, but I highly doubt it.

Components in the device could perform much better than Nintendo is allowing off the bat. My Macbooks GPU for instance has been delibertly lowered in clockspeed etc to meet goals set by Apple for battery life etc.

I find it hard to believe Nintendo would spend the extra cash to have ARM who makes their Arm11 and advertise 467Mhz as their lowend make a new chip just for Nintendo that is far weaker. Its much more likely Nintendo took that 467Mhz Chip and lowered its speed to meet goals.

Will Nintendo let untapped power ever be used thats hard to say. I could see developers being willing to use it on a case to case basis if allowed Just like some PSP games use higher than launch clockspeeds

 

[Cow Mengde]

Seems like the 3DS fits back into the SNES, N64, GCN mold . Not super top of the line, but not way underpowered either like the DS and Wii were/are.

How the hell is the DS "underpowered"? The graphics were a natural progression of the consoles.

GBC = NES
GBA = SNES
DS = N64
3DS = Gamecube + 360/PS3 level shaders

The DS only seems underpowered because the PSP jumped the gun. It like releasing the Jaguar (not saying the PSP is a Jaguar mind you) during the 16 bit days. Otherwise, the DS is perfectly in line with the evolution of the system.

 

[AceBandage]

Hell no. We're comparing it to the iPhone, the iPad, and ... the PSP. And it doesn't look good compared to any of them! =(

Sad, sad day.
Why do people insist on comparing oranges to bruised apple products.

 

[GDGF]

That's their specs, but not the graphics they produced.

From SNES you had Mode 7, which blew people away. From N64 you had AA and texture filtering, which blew people away. From Gamecube you had this at launch:

And now with 3DS we have stereo 3D.

That's a damn fine point.

Not seen this then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qVTfi06suw

Confirmed by Capcom in an article last week to be 100% rendered in real-time. Should make you convinced.

People are selectively dodging both that video and the interview that has a point by point breakdown of the graphical features.