It'd be nice if the window dressing doesn't look bland but looks creative and interesting though, no?
I still like the NSMB series since the gameplay and level design is good, but it frustrates me how boring the art direction is.
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New Super Mario Bros. series and lack of variety in worlds
- Thread starter Why would you do that?
- Start date
It'd be nice if the window dressing doesn't look bland but looks creative and interesting though, no?
I still like the NSMB series since the gameplay and level design is good, but it frustrates me how boring the art direction is.
you mean not being able to roam freely on each screen? I thought that way too until I read how the game adds the swapping leader mechanic that bolsters both cooperative and competitive gaming. It really gave it a new light for me and I couldn't be any happier that they decided to incorporate it that way.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
I would like to see a dry bones world.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
Skyrim's Locations (I bolded the interesting ones):
Snow - Snow - Snow - Snow - Snow - Snow
That was a pretty interesting game visually to explore, even though there was no variety or innovation as far as locales.
Snow - Snow - Snow - Snow - Snow - Snow
That was a pretty interesting game visually to explore, even though there was no variety or innovation as far as locales.
I spent today replaying Super Mario World, any it only stands to remind me that Nintendo will probably never top that game. I'd like to see them try a "New Super Mario World" though.
Ditch the shitty Murshroom Kingdom and head back to Dinosaur Land. Either that, or give us fully new locations with brand new enemies and features. Also ditch the crappy NSMB art style and music while we're at it.
Ditch the shitty Murshroom Kingdom and head back to Dinosaur Land. Either that, or give us fully new locations with brand new enemies and features. Also ditch the crappy NSMB art style and music while we're at it.
Heart of Black
Member
I liked how Super Mario Land was in a desert with Egyptian themes, then ends up in cyberspace China by the end. All with 4 colors. BOOM.
That flying squirrel cape
Also looking at the newest trailer for NSMB2, it seems to have a few new level styles as well. The one with the mountain tops in the background, that crazy looking giant boo, and the "outline" reverse color world.
imo that just made things seem a little thrown together...for the overworld maps anyway.
Heh i'd be up for that. Or bring the football koopas back.
Im so glad they finally ditched the "Super generic grassland with Peach's castle in the background" setup that they literally used for three games in a row.
NSMB2 has a few cool new backgrounds in it, but not enough. NSMBU seems to really be picking up the slack. Dat impressionism bg
Honestly its not even the world reuse that bothers so much as the difference in the tiles/backgrounds between NSMB1,wii and 2 are so minor and miniscule that it feels like I'm looking at the same game multiple times. I'd say they should consider ways to mix things up, but with things like the starry theme in NSMBU's ice levels I guess they already did that.
Why would you do that?
Member
I find it interesting that some people only consider the worlds to be sort of an unimportant "window" to the main game. I don't see it that way for two reasons.
1) A world can (and should IMO) introduce new and interesting enemies and gameplay. A space world with low gravity, an underwater world with swimming, a pipe world with pipe mazes, a big or small world, etc. It makes it more important.
2) A world introduces variety in graphics. What if you look out your window, and all you ever see is a grassy hill at night? Even if it is just a window, it's a pretty boring window.
Therefore, I think it's important to explore all sorts of world types. However, there is a secondary, less obvious way to increase variety...
That looks like a snow/ice world with one level that features stars.
I hope I'm wrong, but it is a good picture of how New SMB U will probably feature the same, "boring" worlds while featuring new and interesting gimmicks and stage types within the worlds.
Just because a world is snow themed doesn't mean it can't have a sunken ship or haunted house in it. I think Mario U will try to add variety and "prove" itself in that way instead of simply changing the world types.
1) A world can (and should IMO) introduce new and interesting enemies and gameplay. A space world with low gravity, an underwater world with swimming, a pipe world with pipe mazes, a big or small world, etc. It makes it more important.
2) A world introduces variety in graphics. What if you look out your window, and all you ever see is a grassy hill at night? Even if it is just a window, it's a pretty boring window.
Therefore, I think it's important to explore all sorts of world types. However, there is a secondary, less obvious way to increase variety...
That looks like a snow/ice world with one level that features stars.
I hope I'm wrong, but it is a good picture of how New SMB U will probably feature the same, "boring" worlds while featuring new and interesting gimmicks and stage types within the worlds.
Just because a world is snow themed doesn't mean it can't have a sunken ship or haunted house in it. I think Mario U will try to add variety and "prove" itself in that way instead of simply changing the world types.
Have you played Super Mario Galaxy 2?
RockmanWhore
Member
Yes, the New Mario games are extremely boring and lazy when it comes to the art direction. I guess these games are this way because in Japan, people are more nostalgic about the very first Super Mario games, while in the west, we like 3 and World better.
That said, the actual levels are very varied, there is always a new type of platform or powerup, or a nice gimmick, so the actual gameplay is very varied, so I'm okay with that. I prefer that over a game like Rayman Origins, in which it's the total opposite (extremely appealing visuals, but not so much variety in the level design, I'm sure I'm too harsh, but all the levels felt very similar to me in Rayman Origins).
The last E3 presentation of New Super Mario Bros U featured some very nice background, so at maybe this time things will be different.
That said, the actual levels are very varied, there is always a new type of platform or powerup, or a nice gimmick, so the actual gameplay is very varied, so I'm okay with that. I prefer that over a game like Rayman Origins, in which it's the total opposite (extremely appealing visuals, but not so much variety in the level design, I'm sure I'm too harsh, but all the levels felt very similar to me in Rayman Origins).
The last E3 presentation of New Super Mario Bros U featured some very nice background, so at maybe this time things will be different.
True true. The multiplayer mode in Super Mario Bros. Dx sort of behaved in this manner. Though it was a race, trying to stay ahead of your foe in a Mario game is great fun.
Yeah, this is the type of weird world I'd like to see in a Mario.
SMG has a toy world and a cake world for instance. SM64 had a level inside a clock. Why can we have some more of these crazy worlds in 2D games as well ?
We could have also some mixes of themes, like a combined Ice/Underwater world, or a Jungle/Lava world. Would help distinguish the different games.
NSMBU worlds looks nice enough so far though, if a bit predictable.
For me, the 2D Mario game's worlds were usually nothing more than different aesthetics. I agree with Why Would You Do That? in that worlds should dramatically change how the game changes instead of just having a different tile set and background.
Maybe for you, but the point of this thread is to show otherwise.
Maybe for you, but the point of this thread is to show otherwise.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The biggest problem with the perception of the art in NSMB branded games, is that a lot of people seem to have this notion about graphics and art direction:
1. If I like this art, it is a masterpiece of craftsmanship and demonstrates the creators are genius.
2. If I don't like this art, it is lazy and was made in ten minutes, showing the creators hold me, the player, in contempt.
The art direction in the NSMB games is extremely specific, and hardly generic. Some people don't like it as, it seems, they are only personally excited by impressionistic and stylized art. That's fair, one man's ceiling is another man's floor. But the art style in NSMB is nothing more than the friendly, inviting style of rendering Nintendo has been experimenting with for over a decade in the primary concept art for their mainline all-ages games. It started with the master character renders for Super Mario 64.
It was then greatly refined during the Gamecube era, when Nintendo created a whole slew of 'reference models' for virtually all of their characters in every game. Smash Bros. Melee was the first game to heavily demonstrate this, and its art direction is not unlike the smooth, polished rendered style seen in NSMB. Another series to follow this aesthetic is Mario Kart - which starting with the N64 version, has had practically the same art and rendering style in every single game.
The mistaken notions surrounding NSMB are pretty flippant at this point - witness how many people assert that the art assets in each game are literally the same. Which is false. NSMB U does not 'reuse' assets from NSMB Wii - every piece of asset, every model, is new and not merely scaled up to HD. NSMB 2 on the 3DS does not reuse any actual assets. Each game uses new assets, but the art style and rendering is consistent.
As for the primary question with variety of worlds... I have had the impression that what Nintendo is doing with the NSMB series is a matter of iterative refinement. First there was NSMB DS. It was a prototype, and it is widely agreed to be very crude in comparison to all the other games. NSMB Wii took the same themes as the DS game, recreated all the assets to a higher standard with a lot more detail and quality.
NSMB U follows NSMB Wii directly. Therefore, it does not reuse the same world themes and art elements, but adds new themes. NSMB 2, meanwhile, seems more like bringing the refined Wii version to a portable format, thus it uses many of the same themes, just with much higher level of quality compared to the original DS game.
I personally don't agree with all of their strategy. I would have considered the DS game done, and gone ahead with new themes for NSMB 2 - but I think I get what Nintendo is doing, and it makes a kind of sense. But then, I am not offended by the art style and it is quite appealing for me. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see a mainline Mario game with other visual styles. Yoshi's Island is my favorite platformer of all time, and part of its appeal is its particular art style. You can like more than one thing, you know.
1. If I like this art, it is a masterpiece of craftsmanship and demonstrates the creators are genius.
2. If I don't like this art, it is lazy and was made in ten minutes, showing the creators hold me, the player, in contempt.
The art direction in the NSMB games is extremely specific, and hardly generic. Some people don't like it as, it seems, they are only personally excited by impressionistic and stylized art. That's fair, one man's ceiling is another man's floor. But the art style in NSMB is nothing more than the friendly, inviting style of rendering Nintendo has been experimenting with for over a decade in the primary concept art for their mainline all-ages games. It started with the master character renders for Super Mario 64.
It was then greatly refined during the Gamecube era, when Nintendo created a whole slew of 'reference models' for virtually all of their characters in every game. Smash Bros. Melee was the first game to heavily demonstrate this, and its art direction is not unlike the smooth, polished rendered style seen in NSMB. Another series to follow this aesthetic is Mario Kart - which starting with the N64 version, has had practically the same art and rendering style in every single game.
The mistaken notions surrounding NSMB are pretty flippant at this point - witness how many people assert that the art assets in each game are literally the same. Which is false. NSMB U does not 'reuse' assets from NSMB Wii - every piece of asset, every model, is new and not merely scaled up to HD. NSMB 2 on the 3DS does not reuse any actual assets. Each game uses new assets, but the art style and rendering is consistent.
As for the primary question with variety of worlds... I have had the impression that what Nintendo is doing with the NSMB series is a matter of iterative refinement. First there was NSMB DS. It was a prototype, and it is widely agreed to be very crude in comparison to all the other games. NSMB Wii took the same themes as the DS game, recreated all the assets to a higher standard with a lot more detail and quality.
NSMB U follows NSMB Wii directly. Therefore, it does not reuse the same world themes and art elements, but adds new themes. NSMB 2, meanwhile, seems more like bringing the refined Wii version to a portable format, thus it uses many of the same themes, just with much higher level of quality compared to the original DS game.
I personally don't agree with all of their strategy. I would have considered the DS game done, and gone ahead with new themes for NSMB 2 - but I think I get what Nintendo is doing, and it makes a kind of sense. But then, I am not offended by the art style and it is quite appealing for me. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see a mainline Mario game with other visual styles. Yoshi's Island is my favorite platformer of all time, and part of its appeal is its particular art style. You can like more than one thing, you know.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
That looks gorgeous I think NSMBU is bringing the variety in levels back.
It also has small enemies, but could work.
^ Well said, Kaijima; the art style is deliberate and calculated, and each time built from scratch.
You can dislike the "simple" aesthetic, but it's not lazy.
In fact I think it's probably tougher to create the enduring, appealing-to-all-ages NSMB style, than to hire some everyday art designer to create another typical stylized look.
You can dislike the "simple" aesthetic, but it's not lazy.
In fact I think it's probably tougher to create the enduring, appealing-to-all-ages NSMB style, than to hire some everyday art designer to create another typical stylized look.
Starsunder
Member
Great post, and I agree. I get the complaints about the art style, but personally I really like it. NSMB2 looks great, and NSMB U looks amazing. Funnily enough, one of the things I'm looking forward to the most is the SMW-esque map in NSMB U. Been waiting for that for a loooong time.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Yes NSMB series needs more variety in worlds but what it crucially needs is BETTER MUSIC I hated the music since NSMB on the DS and NSMB2 still continuing the trend.
Like the hat?
Banned
I would love like a rain world or something.
Sometimes, Nintendo is really good at creating new, creative worlds. Other times, they really, really suck. They often fall back on the standard fire level, water level, desert level, forest level motif.
NSMB U looks like it has some cool new levels, like the impressionist one (Someone posted a picture of this earlier in the thread). But NSMB 2 looks really weak in this regard.
NSMB U looks like it has some cool new levels, like the impressionist one (Someone posted a picture of this earlier in the thread). But NSMB 2 looks really weak in this regard.
I've loved the music from NSMB, but I was disappointed in how later games in the series didn't introduce new music, but rather re-used the music from NSMB.
And then NSMB2 comes around and changes the music by adding really bad sound samples, making the music sound really unpleasant.
Neff
Member
The NSMB series is Mario Headbutting a Block: The Game. It plays heavily on nostalgia, or public perception of nostalgia (essentially SMB1 and 3 sans speed or challenge), and focuses less on the esoteric aesthetics of World, 64, Sunshine or Galaxy. This is mainly why it looks bland. It's also slack on the kind of sophisticated features and mechanics that pique your curiosity and encourage experimentation, or the death-defying high-speed leaps and precision platforming in the core Mario games because they intimidate the casual player NSMB is aimed at. There really isn't a lot more to it than platforms, Goombas and coins, wrapped up in a straightforward, sedate, simple challenge anyone can conquer.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
I don't know what sucks more in the NSMB series, the fuckin' music or that plastic, soulless art style.
Shotgun Kiss
Member
As well as NSMB, I also found Super Mario 3D Land completely uninspired and unambitious. I certainly wouldn't compare it to Super Mario 64. Super Mario 64 is the most open-world 3D Mario game, and SM3DL is most linear. So much so it plays almost like a 2D game.
Like NSMB, I also thought SM3DL was lacking in ideas and originality. To me, it felt like Nintendo once again playing it safe. It's a good game, but I was disappointed, as I was hoping for Super Mario Galaxy levels of greatness.
Haunted
Member
I don't know what it is, but I think Mario's model in the NSMB line is so much less expressive and organic than it is in the Galaxy games. Like a bland render version of him, not quite as stiff as it is in the Mario Party games, but still worse than in the proper 3D mainline ones. Oh well.
I think the starry night level and other backgrounds in the Wii U game look pretty cool, but it all feels really safe and very small steps. I can definitely see where the criticism is coming from.
I think the starry night level and other backgrounds in the Wii U game look pretty cool, but it all feels really safe and very small steps. I can definitely see where the criticism is coming from.
Chip N Chance
Member
I hate the music and art style so much. I just wish they would do an all sprite successor to Mario World. The lack of variety in the over world is also a missed opportunity. Its just a straight shot from left to right, where as Mario World you actually felt like you were traversing the land and finding secret paths.
When i first played New Super Mario i was actually impressed, and then the Wii Version came out and i thought that was better. But looking back on them they just look so generic. Still fun games. I have to say though, the WiiU New Mario game looks much more inline with what i want from a 2D Mario game. Who els thought Mario 3D Land was one of the best things Nintendo has done with Mario in years?
Spieler Eins
Member
It's the forest world, but a ,,big''-level regardless. Trailer shows it also has giant blocks and the big goombas turn small if you hit them.
Yes, it's not farfetched to assume that this will have the Mushroom Kingdom with all its NSMB tropes again, but at least it looks like that they push the artstyle forward and try more new elements in the stages than the handheld games.
Also, the trailer shows some pyramid cave, so we have pretty much everything covered at this point but lava... which will certainly be the final world again. (Hopefully as stylized and more varied as others, because the sky world looks pretty uninspired once more)
Yes, it's not farfetched to assume that this will have the Mushroom Kingdom with all its NSMB tropes again, but at least it looks like that they push the artstyle forward and try more new elements in the stages than the handheld games.
Also, the trailer shows some pyramid cave, so we have pretty much everything covered at this point but lava... which will certainly be the final world again. (Hopefully as stylized and more varied as others, because the sky world looks pretty uninspired once more)
Cheesemeister
Member
Well, I am always seperating 2D and 3D Marios in my mind sorry. Galaxy2 is nothing short from amazing and just as diverse.
Holy Order Sol
Member
2D versions of the kind of things found in both Galaxy games would solve this easily.
Starsunder
Member
What kind of stages do those worlds hold? Higher difficulty, crazier level design, nothing different at all? You can spoil me, I don't care.
Cheesemeister
Member
WrenchNinja
Member
That is too awesome.
Starsunder
Member
Yessssssssssss
Ok I can't wait anymore >.<
Kinda seems superficial to me, tbh. I don't know, I guess it's a good thing for that to be a "major" complaint.
SuperAndroid17
Member
Worlds is one thing but music is another
The music is the NSMB series is abysmal . BOP BOP
The music is the NSMB series is abysmal . BOP BOP
Brainiac 8
Member
It also has small enemies, but could work.
SMB3 big world also had small enemies.
I'm not bothered by the lack in world variety as long as the level design is good and since level design is always top notch, so I'm never disapointed there.
It also has small enemies, but could work.
i just love this screen :'V everything looks so damn smooth
plasticpassion
Member
Did you intend to have more pictures in the OP?
Nothing has topped the 2d platformers SMB3 and SMW for me. 3d wise, of course SMG2 is genius though.
Nothing has topped the 2d platformers SMB3 and SMW for me. 3d wise, of course SMG2 is genius though.
Seven Force
Banned
Despite being a pretty weak entry over all (Although I love it to death) I'd love for another game to have the world variety of Super Mario Land 2. Mario Zone is still one of my favorite Mario worlds ever just because of how ridiculous a concept it is. (A giant, clockwork powered Mario robot? Sure, why not!)
This here is a nice looking minimalist pic from NSMB2
what do you guys think about it?
surprised no one commented on it
TheShampion
Member
Honestly, if they just got rid of desert worlds, I would be satisfied. I am not sure why, but I am so tired of desert worlds. Both NSMBWii and Kirby Mass Attack got so much better after the desert level.