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[LiveFromKyoto]

I think it's great that they're on this bandwagon, but where were they when I was the lone voice crying out in the wilderness about this BS in KoTOR?

 

[kenta]

I'd like to see the idea pushed even farther, in fact. Have relationships build between the characters, which would then affect how they act. For example, if I'm playing a male character, and I always go out of my way to protect a certain female character from harm, she develops a crush on my character, which would then make me her preference when, say, she has the choice of healing either my character or one of the other party members.

That's actually a pretty cool idea

 

[Amir0x]

saying you can play the game without gambits is like saying you can play FF7 without Materias while both are doable is simply too annoying to bother with it and that's NOT freedom imo.

I dont understand your definition of freedom.

Again, it's annoying for you. I recognize that and I accept that may be the case for some people. But, unlike your example with FF7, if you don't use materia you don't use 99% of the games abilities period. In FFXII, every ability is available to you manually - and although it's definitely a slower, more deliberately paced experience it does not seem at all to suffer from some sort of 'annoying' attribute. At least, not inherently so... your mileage may vary as it so apparently does.

FFXII is ultra freedom. No random battles. I pick and choose my enemies, and I decide down to the smallest detail how I will approach combat... if that's hands-off, hands-on, or a mix it's up to me. That's freedom. The option is there... and they are all viable.

and like how you bring up that I have watched a lot of scarlet's vids like that's relevant to the discussion.

I wanted to note your expertise here. Certainly, you've watched more FFXII videos then I have which should theoretically make you more knowledgeable than my approx. one hour of playtime with the Japanese version.

 

[Error]

Sure, there are times when I want to get my hands dirty and have specific characters do specific things, but I find it much more enjoyable to have them act like "living" characters and perform actions on their own. Not only is it nice to concentrate on winning the battle, and have an AI controller character worry about keeping me healed, but it also helps the story (IMHO) and whatnot by making those characters seem a bit more alive.

I'd like to see the idea pushed even farther, in fact. Have relationships build between the characters, which would then affect how they act. For example, if I'm playing a male character, and I always go out of my way to protect a certain female character from harm, she develops a crush on my character, which would then make me her preference when, say, she has the choice of healing either my character or one of the other party members.

 

[ZeoVGM]

yeah, they pretty much got it.

 

[teiresias]

I think it's great that they're on this bandwagon, but where were they when I was the lone voice crying out in the wilderness about this BS in KoTOR?

The FFXII Gambit system is far beyond ANYTHING in KoTOR.

 

[chase]

That system actually sounds pretty good, something I've apparently been subconsciously hoping for in RPGs for a long time now. Combine it with the new (for FF) fighting system and you've got my most anticipated FF since FFVII (which I didn't like, but was excited for after FFIII).

 

[Amir0x]

That system actually sounds pretty good, something I've apparently been subconsciously hoping for in RPGs for a long time now. Combine it with the new (for FF) fighting system and you've got my most anticipated FF since FFVII (which I didn't like, but was excited for after FFIII).

Yup, I haven't anticipated an FF this hard in forever... I still find it spooky how accurately SquareEnix apparently read my dreams in designing FFXII.

 

[charlequin]

:lol at the comic. Well played!

Tycho is all racist against getting any sort of real-time action chocolate in his jRPG peanut butter, for some reason, so I'm not surprised that he decided that he hated the FF XII system after carefully considering the E3 2004 build for like five seconds -- he did pretty much the same thing with Tales of Symphonia. Still, despite my own rabid anticipation for the game, I suspect that'll be as common a reaction over here as it was in Japan, for good or ill. I still think the distinction between programming an unchanging set of actions for every single fight and executing them yourself with one or two button presses is pretty insignificant, but I can understand how people attach a lot of significance to the act of controlling, especially in a genre like jRPGs where the "gameplay" can get kinda hazy in places anyway.

EDIT: People explaining to Amir0x how he's deluded about FF XII remind me of the people who carefully and pedantically explain how nobody could possibly enjoy an N1 game because grinding isn't fun.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Another day, another Ami post showing he has no blessed idea what he's talking about.
"Ultra-freedom" :lol :lol

 

[mollipen]

Persona 3 image

Oh, trust me, I'm all over that one. If it has some of those kinds of things, then awesome. If it still has random battles, however, not awesome.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Got a smile out of me.

 

[Error]

Oh, trust me, I'm all over that one. If it has some of those kinds of things, then awesome. If it still has random battles, however, not awesome.

no random battles.

 

[Amir0x]

Another day, another Ami post showing he has no blessed idea what he's talking about.
"Ultra-freedom" :lol :lol

I already played some of the Japanese game. That excuse no longer works. It seems even more odd in retrospect that you were even trying to convince me otherwise - after playing it fully featured, my convictions became even stronger. It was almost as if you were just trying to get me unhyped or something!

 

[bluemax]

Why does anyone try to convince Amir0x otherwise? It's obvious at this point that even after he plays the game and sees it's not quite what he thinks it is he'll still deny it. It's futile people, futile!

 

[PolyGone]

I like the idea of gambits, especially once you're powerful enough to utilize them properly.

 

[Avalon]

Oh, trust me, I'm all over that one. If it has some of those kinds of things, then awesome. If it still has random battles, however, not awesome.

Most of the thing you listed actually. No random battles either.

 

[Pureauthor]

I already played some of the Japanese game. That excuse no longer works. It seems even more odd in retrospect that you were even trying to convince me otherwise - after playing it fully featured, my convictions became even stronger. It was almost as if you were just trying to get me unhyped or something!

I don' t think he's laughing at the fact that you like this game. He's laughing at your claims about the game's freedom.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I already played some of the Japanese game. That excuse no longer works.

Then how can you go and straight up lie about features?
I mean that pick and choose enemies thing...it's just mind blowing, really.

Why does anyone try to convince Amir0x otherwise? It's obvious at this point that even after he plays the game and sees it's not quite what he thinks it is he'll still deny it. It's futile people, futile!

It's fun. And it's not like I can block him.

 

[Amir0x]

Why does anyone try to convince Amir0x otherwise? It's obvious at this point that even after he plays the game and sees it's not quite what he thinks it is he'll still deny it. It's futile people, futile!

What's not quite like I think? Everytime you guys say that, I say 'what' and then you guys don't come up with a logical response.

I've already played part of the Japanese version, not extensively so but for about an hour. Now, barring magical fun time where I get bored after 20 hours (unlikely), what could possibly change to make it 'not quite what i think'?

Check the list ->

- No random battles
- Fully customizable character A.I. ala Gambits
- Choose hands-on, Hands-off, or mix
- Awesome Sakimoto soundtrack
- De-emphasis on characters
- Most lame mini-games stripped, in favour of battle hunts
- Huge explorable world ("zones")

Which of these are untrue. You can try to be anal and say 'oh well it's not so fun if you do hands-on trust me' but it's there, and it's fine.

I mean that pick and choose enemies thing...it's just mind blowing, really.

Uhm, well... I uh saw an enemy, walked up and fought him. Saw another enemy, ignored it... and walked up and fought the next one I wanted to. Now, you guys said there's some pretty narrow dungeons where you'll end up fighting even if you want to avoid and I didn't play that part but these seems like all 'exceptions' rather than the rule here. It was very easy to pick and choose the enemies I fought.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

It's not so much that you relinquish control, but rather just command a different type of control. Ultimately you're still the general of the battle. Much of the emphasis is just transfered from the battle stage to the preperation stage.

 

[Error]

:lol

you are awesome.

cant wait for the official thread and shattered dreams.

Uhm, well... I uh saw an enemy, walked up and fought him. Saw another enemy, ignored it... and walked up and fought the next one I wanted to. Now, you guys said there's some pretty narrow dungeons where you'll end up fighting even if you want to avoid and I didn't play that part but these seems like all 'exceptions' rather than the rule here. It was very easy to pick and choose the enemies I fought.

some enemies are unavoidable (aside from bosses of course) there is your ultra freedom.

 

[Pureauthor]

- Awesome Sakimoto soundtrack

*giggles*

 

[Gattsu25]

FFXII-2?

That being said, I had no problem with the gambit system in the demo...you don't want it to take full control of the game from you? Don't set the gambits up so they will. That's all it takes, folks. . .

 

[RevenantKioku]

Uhm, well... I uh saw an enemy, walked up and fought him. Saw another enemy, ignored it... and walked up and fought the next one I wanted to. Now, you guys said there's some pretty narrow dungeons where you'll end up fighting even if you want to avoid and I didn't play that part but these seems like all 'exceptions' rather than the rule here. It was very easy to pick and choose the enemies I fought.

Which is a feature dating back to before and basically included in the original Final Fantasy.

I guess what bugs me is the way you say it that bugs me.

 

[Amir0x]

*giggles*

I know, Sakimoto is fantastic. The fantastic FFXII soundtrack was just reinforcement.

Which is a feature dating back to before and basically included in the original Final Fantasy.

Uhm, what

 

[ZeoVGM]

amir0x, its just that when you stick up for the game, it sounds more like a sales pitch than anything else. heh.

werent you preaching best ff ever by default TM copyright before you played it too?

 

[RevenantKioku]

Uhm, what

In almost every RPG I can choose my battles. And in FF through FFXII there are times I can get away and times I can't.

 

[Amir0x]

amir0x, its just that when you stick up for the game, it sounds more like a sales pitch than anything else. heh.

werent you preaching best ff ever by default TM copyright before you played it too?

Oh obviously, preaching best FF ever is just to tease the RedScarlet's and Error2k4's of the world - although, I genuinely believe FFXII being the best ever would be quite simple because the series has many problems.

In almost every RPG I can choose my battles. And in FF through FFXII there are times I can get away and times I can't

If you're talking about having to wear a accessory or use an item to avoid fighting any battles, that's not equivalent. If you're talking about having the spam the run button, that's also not equivalent - then I have to slog through the transition and initial screen and press run, and go through the process over and over. Similarly, if I wanted to fight a specific monster I'd have to hope it comes up... with no random battles, and the enemies on the screen, I don't even have to worry about that... if the enemy ain't there, I can move on.

But we've already discussed these things before. That's why I find it mildly amusing why you persist - why, it's almost as if you want me to not enjoy the game!

 

[Pureauthor]

I know, Sakimoto is fantastic. The fantastic FFXII soundtrack was just reinforcement.

No, seriously. You can like the game, that's your prerogative. But the soundtrack is painfully bland.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

OK, now some people are just baiting Ami and the rest of us. In Matsuno, we are strong! Come Halloween see who'll be smiling!

 

[RevenantKioku]

No, seriously. You can like the game, that's your prerogative. But the soundtrack is painfully bland.

Outside of the opening theme, I can't even remember a tune. :/

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I like how the people defending the game the hardest haven't even played it yet. (That would be you Amir0x!)

It's a Matsuno game (or at least it purports to be); so I'm sure it can't be bad. However, all this stupid back-and-forth before the games domestic release is just silly.

 

[ZeoVGM]

No, seriously. You can like the game, that's your prerogative. But the soundtrack is painfully bland.

it works in game, but i like my soundtracks to have memorable tunes, not just be background

 

[Y2Kev]

I like how the people defending the game the hardest haven't even played it yet. (That would be you Amir0x!)

It's a Matsuno game (or at least it purports to be); so I'm sure it can't be bad. However, all this stupid back-and-forth before the games domestic release is just silly.

We just need Shouta now and we will have FFXII Debate #40!

 

[Amir0x]

No, seriously. You can like the game, that's your prerogative. But the soundtrack is painfully bland.

Haha, it's ALSO my prerogative to like the soundtrack - which I found very high quality. Of course, in the context of the entire game it might be better/worse... but it's usually a very good sign when I like it out of a game. Including, I remember many tracks in my head already

I like how the people defending the game the hardest haven't even played it yet. (That would be you Amir0x!)

Actually I have played it. Failure.

 

[BluWacky]

Yup, I haven't anticipated an FF this hard in forever... I still find it spooky how accurately SquareEnix apparently read my dreams in designing FFXII.

FFXII isn't hard, just... wearying (and it's still an excellent game, don't get me wrong)

Whilst there are certain aspects which are particularly "hard" - the shortage of money, buying all your skills etc. - the basic grinding is very, very easy, even with only two gambit slots. An attack gambit and a heal gambit has you nicely set up for every normal encounter, and you can intervene if you feel like it but you can just leave it for a bit, make a cuppa and find all the nearby enemies are dead.

The bounty hunting and bosses are a different story; the early bosses are broken (bloody impossible unless you use Mist Knacks in which case you defeat them almost instantly) and the monster hunts are just tough. But overall it's not an especially hard game in terms of skill required, it's just hard in that it requires vast amounts of time to progress because you're running through absolutely enormous areas to get to the next story point and it takes ages to afford new spells and skills (most of which don't really give that much of an advantage.)

I'll still be buying the English language version (dub sounds brilliant, and my Nihongo-fu is weak) but it's obvious reading your posts on it that you've totally got your eyes shut about what FFXII is actually like, and you're setting yourself up for a huge disappointment.

 

[ZeoVGM]

I like how the people defending the game the hardest haven't even played it yet. (That would be you Amir0x!)

hey now he played an hour! heh

In almost every RPG I can choose my battles. And in FF through FFXII there are times I can get away and times I can't.

yeah i stang by the idea that being able to see your enemies really is not much different than random battles. you still need to get in battles to level up. and if you got into a random battle in past games that you didnt like, you could almost always run away anyway.

it's just a different way of presenting it. doesnt change THAT much in the end

thats just me tho

 

[Amir0x]

FFXII isn't hard, just... wearying (and it's still an excellent game, don't get me wrong)

Whilst there are certain aspects which are particularly "hard" - the shortage of money, buying all your skills etc. - the basic grinding is very, very easy, even with only two gambit slots. An attack gambit and a heal gambit has you nicely set up for every normal encounter, and you can intervene if you feel like it but you can just leave it for a bit, make a cuppa and find all the nearby enemies are dead.

The bounty hunting and bosses are a different story; the early bosses are broken (bloody impossible unless you use Mist Knacks in which case you defeat them almost instantly) and the monster hunts are just tough. But overall it's not an especially hard game in terms of skill required, it's just hard in that it requires vast amounts of time to progress because you're running through absolutely enormous areas to get to the next story point and it takes ages to afford new spells and skills (most of which don't really give that much of an advantage.)

I'll still be buying the English language version (dub sounds brilliant, and my Nihongo-fu is weak) but it's obvious reading your posts on it that you've totally got your eyes shut about what FFXII is actually like, and you're setting yourself up for a huge disappointment.

But I know all these things, and I didn't even discuss difficulty in this thread btw. I'm so happy that money and equipment isn't an easy thing to come by anymore - I love the feeling of being out on the hunt, which random battles totally rob from me, and the feeling of accomplishment from finally affording that equipment I want. This is a more immersive experience for me, from what I played, I love it so much.

 

[Pureauthor]

Haha, it's ALSO my prerogative to like the soundtrack - which I found very high quality. Of course, in the context of the entire game it might be better/worse... but it's usually a very good sign when I like it out of a game. Including, I remember many tracks in my head already

...What's your memory retention rate anyway? The soundtrack might be good ingame, but it simply can't stand on its own.

Actually I have played it. Failure.

For a whole hour. I hated Devil May Cry for the first hour, and I after an hour of GTA:VC I thought it had the potential to be a fun game. Wrong on both counts. I can keep going, really.

 

[Jiggy]

I haven't played the actual game yet, outside of maybe 10 minutes spent with it at E3, but I am 100% totally completely in favor of having all of your party members, except for "your" character, be fully AI controlled. If the AI wasn't such an under-developed mess, I could possibly proclaim Star Ocean 3's battle engine as my favorite in the history of J-RPGs. Sure, there are times when I want to get my hands dirty and have specific characters do specific things, but I find it much more enjoyable to have them act like "living" characters and perform actions on their own. Not only is it nice to concentrate on winning the battle, and have an AI controller character worry about keeping me healed, but it also helps the story (IMHO) and whatnot by making those characters seem a bit more alive.

I'd like to see the idea pushed even farther, in fact. Have relationships build between the characters, which would then affect how they act. For example, if I'm playing a male character, and I always go out of my way to protect a certain female character from harm, she develops a crush on my character, which would then make me her preference when, say, she has the choice of healing either my character or one of the other party members.

Are you talking about pushing the idea farther in FF?
Because I don't know about SO3, but SO2 did exactly what you're saying, to the letter. Rena would cast stat boosts on the party members in descending order of how much she liked them, fighter characters would go to help out their friends/crushes, etc.
But I do agree I'd love to see that in more RPGs.

 

[bluemax]

Oh obviously, preaching best FF ever is just to tease the RedScarlet's and Error2k4's of the world - although, I genuinely believe FFXII being the best ever would be quite simple because the series has many problems.



If you're talking about having to wear a accessory or use an item to avoid fighting any battles, that's not equivalent. If you're talking about having the spam the run button, that's also not equivalent - then I have to slog through the transition and initial screen and press run, and go through the process over and over. Similarly, if I wanted to fight a specific monster I'd have to hope it comes up... with no random battles, and the enemies on the screen, I don't even have to worry about that... if the enemy ain't there, I can move on.

But we've already discussed these things before. That's why I find it mildly amusing why you persist - why, it's almost as if you want me to not enjoy the game!

I've pretty much decided after around 70 hours that FFXIIs system doesn't take any more or less time to get around really during normal playthrough than any random battle based RPG. It is admittedly a bit easier to just run around and not fight anything, but even then that's not a completely sure thing. If you're too underpowered and you try to run your way through somewhere you're still likely to end up dead.

At the end of the day what feels like a big leap at the start of the game feels drastically less progressive at when you reach the end. It's still your typical linear, plot driven, jRPG. It's still Final Fantasy.

 

[Amir0x]

For a whole hour. I hated Devil May Cry for the first hour, and I after an hour of GTA:VC I thought it had the potential to be a fun game. Wrong on both counts. I can keep going, really.

I played through FFX and Dragon Quest 8 to the end and they had random battle systems I positively HATED throughout. FFXII has a system I love from the get go so even enjoying it for an five hours would be a massive improvement. :lol

At what point would something change that would actually cause my opinion to so drastically change? I loved DMC and GTA:VC from start to end btw

At the end of the day what feels like a big leap at the start of the game feels drastically less progressive at when you reach the end. It's still your typical linear, plot driven, jRPG. It's still Final Fantasy.

Oh sure, I still want it to have some resemblance to Final Fantasy... just with the new battle trappings and design that is geared toward me

 

[Lady Bird]

FFXII's tracks need to be listened multiple times so you can fully enjoy them. Not sure about you guys, but there are many tracks of the OST that I love to listen to every day, and found them pretty memorable after listening to them a couple of times, like Giza Plains, Phon Coast, Ending Theme, Esper Battle, Hope, Opening Theme, Nalbina Fortress Underground, and much, much more.

Edit: I think all the tracks that played at the FFXII's JP trailers were pretty memorable, mainly because I watched them many times...

 

[bluemax]

But I know all these things, and I didn't even discuss difficulty in this thread btw. I'm so happy that money and equipment isn't an easy thing to come by anymore - I love the feeling of being out on the hunt, which random battles totally rob from me, and the feeling of accomplishment from finally affording that equipment I want. This is a more immersive experience for me, from what I played, I love it so much.

There's no feeling of accomplishment to getting new gear in this game. Did you read my posts about how bad it is to get money in the official topic? Yeah that problem went away when RS shared her method with me, but how many people will think to abuse the combo system like that? Not many I bet. For most people having to buy every skill and spell in a linear fashion after slogging for exhorbitant amounts of times will not be very fun.

I second what the other guy said, FFXII is a wearying game. It's a grind. For some people this is good and for others its bad. Some people will be over joyed that every dungeon takes at least 2 hours and has one save point. Others will find this frustrating and obnoxious.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Actually I have played it. Failure.

Demos/one hour play does not count. Failure.

 

[Pureauthor]

I played through FFX and Dragon Quest 8 to the end and they had random battle systems I positively HATED throughout. FFXII has a system I love from the get go so even enjoying it for an five hours would be a massive improvement. :lol

At what point would something change that would actually cause my opinion to so drastically change? I loved DMC and GTA:VC from start to end btw

I haven't played the game yet, so I can't comment on FFXII.

I don't know about whether your opinion on FFXII will ultimately change. What I am telling you is that you shouldn't assume the game will be as awesome as the hour you apparently enjoyed.

(And are you saying you've never ended up changing your opinion of a game after an hour or so in?)

 

[Amir0x]

Demos/one hour play does not count. Failure.

Heh, the demo playtime added to it it's actually more like 5 hours then

No, I recently was able to play the Japanese version for around an hour with the help of a friend. I didn't understand much, so a lot had to be explained which made it a little incomprehensive to get really into the meat of programming the Gambits myself but I did get to experience a much more fully featured FFXII and what it will be like and it was thoroughly enjoyable.

There's no feeling of accomplishment to getting new gear in this game. Did you read my posts about how bad it is to get money in the official topic? Yeah that problem went away when RS shared her method with me, but how many people will think to abuse the combo system like that? Not many I bet. For most people having to buy every skill and spell in a linear fashion after slogging for exhorbitant amounts of times will not be very fun.

Yes, that's what i said. This is a good thing imo - money always feels so easy in RPGs, I want that shit to be like a claw. Going out into the field, grabbing monster hides and shit and plomping them down at the counter for a meager reward. Only to buy a wood sword or some shit :lol

 

[JayDubya]

Isn't this effectively the same thing as playing Baldur's Gate / Planescape / Icewind Dale + sequels with or without an A.I. script on each character?

I mean, I liked playing with scripts on - my clerics autohealed and removed poison, my casters nuked large groups with fireballs, archers and rogues fired ranged weapons, I controlled my sword-swinging main character and all was right with the world.

Assuming gambits are optional, and people are saying they are, then I don't see the problem.

I know people that loved playing BG2 micromanaging every action of every character - and to be fair, for big optional fights like Demogorgon you really had to - but that isn't for everyone.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Heh, the demo playtime added to it it's actually more like 5 hours then

No, I recently was able to play the Japanese version for around an hour with the help of a friend. I didn't understand much, so a lot had to be explained which made it a little incomprehensive to get really into the meat of programming the Gambits myself but I did get to experience a much more fully featured FFXII and what it will be like and it was thoroughly enjoyable.

That still doesn't count, I'm sorry. Demo = outdated, for one. And one hour of a game you can't understand doesn't really help your case. Meanwhile you're arguing with people who have finished the game multiple times and expressed concerns and complaints. That's just stupid.

Sorry Ami.