Aceofspades
Banned
What? Did we forget Pennello? Leadbetter, TimDog? Blue whatever? Aron Greenberg....etc
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
- Status
What? Did we forget Pennello? Leadbetter, TimDog? Blue whatever? Aron Greenberg....etc
FranXico
Member
They used to have free online multiplayer, but somehow got the impression that people are ok with paying for it. Strange.
kyliethicc
Member
My worry here is the share button / auto game recording. The PS4 Pro auto records around 10 mins of game footage at 1080p, using up storage. If the PS5 is gonna auto record at 4k for 10 mins, that’ll need a lot of storage. I hope we get even 700 GB free to use for games. And some games are gonna be well over 100GB. Games use 50 GB discs currently, but some games are already at 100GB. Next gen I bet we see a 200 GB game.
SonGoku
Member
After watching the whole presentation i feel more appreciative of PS5 hw and less bummed about the paltry 16GB ram
The thing that interested me the most is the custom I/O unit massive size and capabilities.
The dedicated hw inside it eliminates bottlenecks with data transmission and does work that would require roughly 11 PS5 CPU cores thus enabling the use of the full fat 5.5GB/s raw which typically translates to 8-9GB/s compressed
Did MS speak about their SSD solution? to max out the slower but still blazing fast 2.4GB/s it will take dedicated hw to get rid of bottlenecks and offload check-in and decompression from the CPU.
The thing that interested me the most is the custom I/O unit massive size and capabilities.
The dedicated hw inside it eliminates bottlenecks with data transmission and does work that would require roughly 11 PS5 CPU cores thus enabling the use of the full fat 5.5GB/s raw which typically translates to 8-9GB/s compressed
Did MS speak about their SSD solution? to max out the slower but still blazing fast 2.4GB/s it will take dedicated hw to get rid of bottlenecks and offload check-in and decompression from the CPU.
Last edited:
tryDEATH
Member
From cerny in The ps5 Road stream and even our own developer bgs
Dang so under just the right circumstances the XSX is a 25TF system
This is not us "Sony fanboys" it's actual developers.
If your going to bring him in as a point of proof we should also then question his expertise at which point you have to question if a developer that works on 16bit Indie games is a credible authority to speak on industry standards he simply isn't part of. He has every right to speak on his experience of diminishing returns when it maybe comes to 16bit games, but speaking for the whole industry is quite the stretch for a Indie developer.
CJY
Banned
This is my problem with the XSX.
Sony got an SSD? We got an SSD.
Sony doing 3D audio? We do 3D Audio.
Sony got variable? Ours is fixed.
Sony have Flops? We need moar flopsss.
SSD is the game changer next gen and for me, XSX SSD concept sucks, faster load times... wow. What else? Nothing.
There is no finesse to Xbox and doesn't illicit any passion, just raw grunt.
To use the car analogy, XSX is like a Humvee, big and gross, gets the job done at all costs. PS5 is like a sexy refined sports car.
Come at me xbois
Handy Fake
Member
I think the difference between the two systems is that the PS5 is built around the ludicrously fast SSD speed. Bottlenecks reduced or gone. Super fast IO.
While the XbX is a behemoth, it does run along what I suppose you could say are industry standards. Big clocks, big this, big that.
If Cerny and PlayStation had come out with similar architecture I wouldn't have been disappointed, on the contrary it would seem to be huge. PC architecture, superpowered at that.
But.
It's everything else in the PS5 that has me intrigued. The way it'll work together, the custom chips. It's, quite frankly, exciting because until I see it in action I have no idea what it's capable of.
I honestly think there are some major surprises to come, for both consoles. But with the XbX it's kind of... There? It's a fuckoff big PC in a small frame, and it's a killer.
With PlayStation I literally have no idea what this custom build can do.
And I love that.
Last edited:
Kazekage1981
Member
ok both XsX and PS5 have stated that the SSD can act as additional RAM, or virtual RAM. The bandwidth speed of the SSD is almost equal to the bandwidth of the original Xbox. According to Wikipedia:
"The Xbox CPU is a 32-bit 733 MHz, custom Intel Pentium III Coppermine-based processor. It has a 133 MHz 64-bit GTL+ front-side bus (FSB) with a 1.06 GB/s bandwidth. The system has 64 MB unified DDR SDRAM, with a 6.4 GB/s bandwidth, of which 1.06 GB/s is used by the CPU and 5.34 GB/s is shared by the rest of the system.[39]"
So they can store game assets to the SSD instead of RAM for non essential things of a game that doesn't need that much bandwidth? Perhaps non-essential background things like crowds in a racing game?
"The Xbox CPU is a 32-bit 733 MHz, custom Intel Pentium III Coppermine-based processor. It has a 133 MHz 64-bit GTL+ front-side bus (FSB) with a 1.06 GB/s bandwidth. The system has 64 MB unified DDR SDRAM, with a 6.4 GB/s bandwidth, of which 1.06 GB/s is used by the CPU and 5.34 GB/s is shared by the rest of the system.[39]"
So they can store game assets to the SSD instead of RAM for non essential things of a game that doesn't need that much bandwidth? Perhaps non-essential background things like crowds in a racing game?
Fake
Member
As do Nintendo, but their excuse was to improve 'quality'. Today none of them are free. I totally against both payed and shit online service mind you.
Aceofspades
Banned
After watching the whole presentation i feel more appreciative of PS5 hw and less bummed about paltry 16GB ram
The thing that interested me the most is the custom I/O unit size and capabilities.
The dedicated hw inside it eliminates bottlenecks with data transmission and does work that would require roughly 11 PS5 CPU cores thus enabling the use of the full fat 5.5GB/s raw which commonly translates to 8-9GB/s compressed
Did MS speak about their SSD solution, to max out the slower but till blazing fast 2.4GB/s it will take dedicated hw to get rid of bottlenecks and offload check-in and decompression from the CPU.
PS5 is well thought system, don't let a bunch of fanboys convince you otherwise. There is a reason why devs are more appreciative of it than normal gamers who fixated themselves of a single meaningless metric -TF
Xbox One X had 40% advantage over Pro GPU wise and you have to zoom multiple times to spot the visual differences. PS5 is just 15% less with other strengths.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
25 TF is an assumption based on RT calculations, SeX NEVER achieves 25 TF.
PS5 could achieve 22 GB\s transfer.
Do you know how it works? Do you know under which conditions?
No.
Dargor
Member
Sorry, Albert Penello came here to say stuff like this:
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/adam...n-the-xbox-one-interview.670081/post-80176677
People try to defend their box man, at least some get paid to do it.
Kazekage1981
Member
Holy shit balls, that is the bandwidth of the Cell Processor to its RAM!!!
tryDEATH
Member
"Assumption" and "could" are clearly the key words for both.
MarkMe2525
Member
That's just confirmation bias at play.This is my problem with the XSX.
Sony got an SSD? We got an SSD.
Sony doing 3D audio? We do 3D Audio.
Sony got variable? Ours is fixed.
Sony have Flops? We need moar flopsss.
SSD is the game changer next gen and for me, XSX SSD concept sucks, faster load times... wow. What else? Nothing.
There is no finesse to Xbox and doesn't illicit any passion, just raw grunt.
To use the car analogy, XSX is like a Humvee, big and gross, gets the job done at all costs. PS5 is like a sexy refined sports car.
Come at me xbois
MS experimented with installing ssd's in its xbox one console a few years back. Pc's use ssd? Who is surprised here that both consoles use ssd.
MS has been on the forefront of audio tech in gaming since the OG xbox brought dolby surround to game consoles. Bespoke audio chip in xbox one as well. Again, anyone who follows this stuff expected MS to have a dedicated audio chip.
In what world is variable better than fixed when both fixed clocks are higher than the variable chips max clocks. Not sure what your point is there.
I'm not sure what that last point means. Are you saying Xbox suffers because it has more flops?
My point is not to argue but point out how your "problems" are actually just your bias leading you to inaccurate conclusions.
B_Boss
Member
A very good Analysis with a Lot of Details!
What a superb video. Excellent analysis. Enjoyed it 1000000%.
MarkMe2525
Member
I do find it neat as well. Clever engineering by clever engineers. It will definitely punch above its weight.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
No, they are not.
25 TF is a representative number that do not exists as general performance in the GPU, DF just used to explain how much RT is impressive: without Nvidia or AMD solutions, just with raw power you would need a 25 TF GPU. SeX do not need that, therefore do NOT have it.
Defacto, PS5 has 22 GB\s transfer in ideal conditions, which is official data.
I don't know which conditions and I don't know how useful will be, mind you, but I'm not the one making bad comparisons.
Last edited:
Both consoles are beasts. PS5 might not be as powerful as SeX, based on raw power, but I'm still hopeful that the Games will be very close in visuals. I trust thr Devs that are hyping up the PS5 SSD. Can someone with Tech background lecture me, if SSD affects FPS? Or how it can potentially improve game design(gameplay etc)
Cheers
Cheers
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
With this I agree.
I have know idea how PS5 really works, let alone saying is more elegant.
We should all keep more perspective.
B_Boss
Member
i get it now.
XsX: Lion
PS5: Cheetah
Both are wild cats
Fuckin’ brilliant Kaze-dono
.
Fake
Member
Last edited:
M-V2
Member
It's not my problem that you can't accept facts, it's a you problem.
Btw this is not only the dev that spoke about this, many devs said this & the guys here posted enough of proof
chemical boy
Member
You talk about the gpu, but the Xbox cpu is also more powerful.
Insane Metal
Member
Damn the OG X was a monster.
Ptarmiganx2
Member
I was disappointed by the lack of raw TF during yesterday's presentation. After watching DF and few other videos I'm back on the train! We have never seen a system PC or otherwise with near instant access to data. The PS5 is going to be an entirely new experience. Maybe the xbox provides a slightly better image under 10x magnification and a few more fps, but we've seen pretty before. NONE of us has played on a device like the PS5. It will be the industry standard going forward. The flash controller and co-processor take the load off the CPU and can viewed as another processing core . Despite the lower clock I wouldn't be surprised if the CPU preforms better in many real world scenarios. Having a SPU for audio as powerful as the 8 jaguar core cluster should be interesting. I think PS5 welcomes us to the next level, the PS5 pro kicks the door in.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
I really recommend to watch this video made by NXG. Btw. intro is awesome :
Last edited:
So basically raw power of android phones, vs efficiency of Iphones?This is not us "Sony fanboys" it's actual developers.
Ptarmiganx2
Member
I'm not sure it will be in real world performance. The co-processor and flash controller on the PS5 frees up a lot of resources essentially making it like another zen core. It's more custom I'd bet real world performance the PS5 CPU preforms better as it is more targeted in it's tasks.
SonGoku
Member
It does make me wonder, does the SEX have dedicated hw to max out its SSD 2.4GB/s raw - 4.8GB/s compressed read capabilities? or are they advertising peak figures that wont be reached under regular gameplay scenarios.
thanks
11 actually lol and thats before factoring the audio chip
Last edited:
CJY
Banned
Yep, awesome, awesome video that should put a lot of myths to bed. I know lots of people don't like NX gamer though so his analysis will need further corroboration, but it's clear PS5 is a mysterious beast that will punch far above its weight. I can't wait to see what it can produce.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Andodalf
Banned
After watching the whole presentation i feel more appreciative of PS5 hw and less bummed about the paltry 16GB ram
The thing that interested me the most is the custom I/O unit massive size and capabilities.
The dedicated hw inside it eliminates bottlenecks with data transmission and does work that would require roughly 11 PS5 CPU cores thus enabling the use of the full fat 5.5GB/s raw which typically translates to 8-9GB/s compressed
Did MS speak about their SSD solution? to max out the slower but still blazing fast 2.4GB/s it will take dedicated hw to get rid of bottlenecks and offload check-in and decompression from the CPU.
A few quotes from the DF article about how the XSX minimizes bottlenecks and overhead while maximizing available memory and storage access speed.
POak
Neo Member
The only thing that gives me hope about the PS5 is thinking about Sony and Microsoft as one does about Apple and Samsung.
Apple can, for example, have an iPhone with 3GB of RAM, and yet have a more performant and snappier phone than a Samsung Galaxy holding WAY more RAM, and being way more wasteful with it.
Only by thinking like this can one start to accept that PS5, on paper, is less powerful than Xbox.
Apple can, for example, have an iPhone with 3GB of RAM, and yet have a more performant and snappier phone than a Samsung Galaxy holding WAY more RAM, and being way more wasteful with it.
Only by thinking like this can one start to accept that PS5, on paper, is less powerful than Xbox.
CJY
Banned
Based on the State of Decay loading demo figures that someone outlined above, I think the XSX SSD sounds potentially very heavily bottlenecked and won't/can't reach those theoretical limits at all.
CJY
Banned
Based on this, I stand corrected to a large degree, but we'll definitely have to see what the end results are.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
O boi. Good luck.
POak
Neo Member
*** but more performant in practice.
Forgot to add what's above and couldn't edit the post.
Handy Fake
Member
I watched the GDC presentation and was honestly fascinated. It's so far away from your standard PC build. On the one hand I'm slightly worried about another "Cell" issue, but listening to what's been put in place it's... I dunno. Weird. Out there. Different.
Thing is, Cerny is no slouch. That's my main take away.
There's a difference in foundation here and, as I said before, I just do not know how it translates to real world gaming. But I'm excited. As excited as a man on a rocket who doesn't know whether it'll explode or kill me with the G-force.
B_Boss
Member
Indeed a true “fundamental shift” as (dark1x/Linneman) has stated. Cannot wait.
I must also say, your situation, where you’ve come to further realize how uniquely powerful the PS5 is, I wager many (if not merely some) will undergo the same experience: the more we learn (about both consoles even but in particular the PS5 due to its engineering specifically) the more we will appreciate it.
Last edited:
Of course the series x has decompression hardware or they wouldn't bother to CPU intensive.
Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver over 6GB/s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads decompression work from the CPU and is matched to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck. The decompression hardware supports Zlib for general data and a new compression [system] called BCPack that is tailored to the GPU textures that typically comprise the vast majority of a game's package size."
www.eurogamer.net/amp/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs?espv=1
Kazekage1981
Member
SonGoku
Member
So they do have a dedicated decompressor though no mention of hw components to deal with bottlenecks and check ins, GPU cache scrubbers etc.
But if they say 2.4GB/s is guaranteed i guess they must have it
Thanks for the link
edit
This seems to be their GPU cache scrubber equivalent
Quick resume sounds super cool, hope PS5 has something similar
Last edited:
draliko
Member
Do you guys know diminishing returns are a thing also on data streaming? BTW You only need the data you can process not a single bit more... For sure a lot of you live in dreamland and absolutely knows nothings about fundamental of software engineering and hardware engineering... Face the truth only 1st party will care for the special sauce, 3rd party will code for the middle ground, ps5 tflops and xsx ssd
Handy Fake
Member
Are you not excited for what the different approaches might bring though? We just don't know how these various technologies will be utilised. I'm loving it.
01011001
Banned
this is a bad example because that game was not in any way optimised to run on SSD.
the way better example is the demos where they switch between games.
if you look at those demos you will see that one game gets paused, its current state is saved onto the SSD, and State of Decay gets loaded up from the savestate on the SSD.
this whole saving and loading of 2 games takes 5 seconds.
this demo showcases that, when the Series X loads data in a format that's optimised for it (aka. these save states and optimised games) it loads extremely fast.
you can calculate how fast each game will load pretty easily.
the SSD can load 2.4GB a second uncompressed data and 4.8GB a second of compressed data.
the Series X also has 16GB of RAM just like the PS5, this the maximum amount of data that can ever be loaded up at once.
filling 16GB with a speed of 2.4GB a second takes roughly 7 seconds.
so worst case scenario you will have about 7 seconds of load times, if the data is fully uncompressed.
filling it with 4.8GB a second takes roughly 3.5 seconds, so well optimised games will load in 3.5 seconds or faster.
these load times, 7sec and 3.5sec, are only this high if the game literally has to load 16GB of data to display the first frame after the load screen.
with intelligent streaming of data this will rarely actually be the case. that's why we have varying load times, not every game needs to load as much data instantly as this worst case scenario.
now we have the next thing, PC. more than 90% of all games on these systems will be multiplatform. these games will be made for PC, Xbox and PS5. optimisations for such a game to the level in which the PS5 can actually have a significant advantage will be rare and will most likely take a long time to surface, especially since for the next few years PC games will still need to support HDDs to reach as many people as possible.
so in short, for 90% of all games what we will see is the Xbox loading a level in 3.5/7 seconds and the PS5 loading it in 1.7/3.5 seconds in worst case scenarios, in most games both will load faster than this
Last edited:
Kazekage1981
Member
That's a very good analogy. Apples design philosophy is tightly packed, highly custom , highly efficient phones. I guess that's what Sony is trying to do with PS5
Audiophile
Member
I see what you did there.
- Status