Nearly all graphics stuff is trivially parallelizable but there's certain cases where having a higher clock speed may be an advantage verses having more CU's.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
- Status
Nearly all graphics stuff is trivially parallelizable but there's certain cases where having a higher clock speed may be an advantage verses having more CU's.
CJY
Banned
So you're saying it's not possible to have workloads that that target only a subset of available CUs? You're saying that faster clocks increasing the speed of the L1/L2 cache won't make things faster? This seems to fly in the face of what Cerny said.
kyliethicc
Member
Yeah to be expected, he is Sony 1st party after all. But he’s also a designer, probably pumped he can innovate next gen.
CJY
Banned
kyliethicc
Member
Well Digital Foundry mentioned a game designed around very fast SSDs can be optimized to have faster frame rates etc, so some Sony exclusives might be able to achieve some unique stuff. I don’t make games, idk.
CJY
Banned
Tweaktown? Are they known Sony shills like Jason Schreier is?
MarkMe2525
Member
Not to nitpick but iPhones gpu blows Qualcomms gpu out of the water when it comes to brute force. This analogy should be the other way around if it is applicable at all.
You should talk to Intel p4 engineers if you think clocks are the end all be all. The only reason it is clocked to high heaven is because performance was so far behind MS. I guarantee if they had it to do all over again they cut the SSD budget put that into the APU lower clocks.
Last edited:
Shmunter
Member
All experienced devs see the forest through the trees and know this. Many gamers can see it too, many more aren’t sure what to think, especially after Sony confounding them with a dry presentation not meant for them. And there are some that will never acknowledge it because they are hardcore to the bone devoted elsewhere.
And that’s everybody summarised.
Ptarmiganx2
Member
They have it, but it still requires the CPU...they are saying 1/10 of a Zen core on Xbox. Could be higher.
CJY
Banned
Who is this "everyone" you are talking about? Why would any developer "develop around" the XBox SSD when the game has to also run on Xbone and PC where the vast majority of gamers run HDDs?
I don't think clocks are the be-all and end all and I don't think CU are the be-all and end-all either. I choose to believe Cerny when he says that maximising the workload across more CUs is more difficult than less and I also believe that many devs potentially too lazy or too time-constrained to use every CU to its maximum potential. Cerny also justified his reasoning for preferring faster clocks vs. having more CUs. I guess it might be just PR fluff.
CrashNBurn_281
Member
How good their showmanship for their E3 direct was not what I was implying. Cult members? What are you talking about? Both sides have lunatics. Read enough through this entire thread and that is self evident.
ethomaz
Banned
Unveiling New Details of PlayStation 5: Hardware Technical Specs [UPDATED]
Watch live for a deep dive into PS5's system architecture and how it will shape the future of games.
blog.us.playstation.com
8 Cores / 16 Threads
The official spec sheet lol
Its trivial to realise that making an operation more parallelised is harder then just making the core run faster. It should be noted though that a lot of graphic operations are trivial too parallelise as they are generally per pixel and have independent reads / writes and little data dependency within the same operation in the same frame.
Last edited:
CJY
Banned
Nah. I don't agree. Building a console should be about give and take and careful consideration, and I'm not talking in extremes like you are. The assumption by many is that PS5 will have thermal issues, but this hasn't been corroborated by anybody and totally unsubstantiated, but what if PS5's APU performs well within it's thermal envelope because of sufficient cooling designed around a fixed power draw and predicatable performance characteristics? I don't see why a system architect wouldn't want a higher clock in this scenario and he even said he could have pushed the GPU clocks even higher.
vdopey
Member
ok so I have been giving this a lot of thought and I watched the nxgamer video, although I am sure I heard something about this elsewhere, the ability to stream 9 GB/s of data into ram is actually quite amazing here me out. So on a pc whether its mac / linux or windows, imagine you cycling through windows to find the right window, now I run linux and during my working day I have, intellij idea running and a bunch of open tabs open in chrome and firefox along with atleast a few different terminals, along with spotify and a bunch of other stuff usually running, now imagine if you minimise something to the docker or to the taskbar or whatever you want to call it - this minimise takes it out of ram and onto the ssd, the next time you need it as your scrolling through which usually takes about a second you select the application and as it maximises it, what its actually doing is copying it back from the ssd into ram, typically an application is going to consume a few Gigabytes, Chrome at its worst might consume 6, thats still a fraction of a second for it to be copied from the ssd into live ram - obviously you cant do this for all tasks, for example spotify would need to still be active to listen to music, but still this on your laptop or your desktop would be amazing.
Now back to the PS5, they have this tech already, they have dealt with all of the possible bottlenecks its raw 9 GB/s compressed data being streamed from ssd to ram, why would the user interface OS ever need to take RAM away from games ? The FreeBSD Kernel would obviously always need to run in the RAM, but we are talking worst case 200M, but its more likely to be around 50M - the Kernel manages the hardware so it has to run and its probably running dom0 and the PS OS is probably a virtualised DOMU (well at least this is how the PS3 worked and most likely how this is still working) - lets give the base actual operating OS 500M, some of it reserved as swap. So out of that 16 G, the OS would only ever need 500M persistant residual RAM and the GAMES could switch in out with the PS OS from SSD to RAM in a fraction of a second the PS OS would never need more than 2G storage, thats what 0.2 seconds ? if that, why would you need to dedicate anything to the OS other than critical hardware functions ? when you start looking into this and thinking about the possibilities its pretty amazing - I think once this tech hits PCs, most likely laptops will be the first and I would wager a bet Apple of old (under Steve Jobs) would definitely be first to implement this but I can several hw manufacturers implementing this, it truly will be a game changer you could do far more with much less RAM, but the RAM would have to be really fast and so would the ssd.
The more you begin to think about how this tech can be utilised, the more you begin to understand Cerny is a freaking genius. I completely doubted them yesterday - I think ignore games consoles, for general compute this will be a game changer.
Now back to the PS5, they have this tech already, they have dealt with all of the possible bottlenecks its raw 9 GB/s compressed data being streamed from ssd to ram, why would the user interface OS ever need to take RAM away from games ? The FreeBSD Kernel would obviously always need to run in the RAM, but we are talking worst case 200M, but its more likely to be around 50M - the Kernel manages the hardware so it has to run and its probably running dom0 and the PS OS is probably a virtualised DOMU (well at least this is how the PS3 worked and most likely how this is still working) - lets give the base actual operating OS 500M, some of it reserved as swap. So out of that 16 G, the OS would only ever need 500M persistant residual RAM and the GAMES could switch in out with the PS OS from SSD to RAM in a fraction of a second the PS OS would never need more than 2G storage, thats what 0.2 seconds ? if that, why would you need to dedicate anything to the OS other than critical hardware functions ? when you start looking into this and thinking about the possibilities its pretty amazing - I think once this tech hits PCs, most likely laptops will be the first and I would wager a bet Apple of old (under Steve Jobs) would definitely be first to implement this but I can several hw manufacturers implementing this, it truly will be a game changer you could do far more with much less RAM, but the RAM would have to be really fast and so would the ssd.
The more you begin to think about how this tech can be utilised, the more you begin to understand Cerny is a freaking genius. I completely doubted them yesterday - I think ignore games consoles, for general compute this will be a game changer.
xPikYx
Member
FixedUnveiling New Details of PlayStation 5: Hardware Technical Specs [UPDATED]
Watch live for a deep dive into PS5's system architecture and how it will shape the future of games.
8 Cores / 16 Threads
The official spec shit lol
ethomaz
Banned
Shit?Fixed
CJY
Banned
I'm not arguing about the relative difficulty of attaining performance through parallelization vs. increasingly clocks though. I'm simply saying that not every workload requires massive parallelization across all available CUs and that increased clockspeeds in those case (which are numerous) would be faster with faster clocks.
Shmunter
Member
The XbX does have 1.7tf advantage, in the real world that likely translates to higher pixel density. This will undoubtedly be realised as more aggressive dynamic Rez scaling on PS5 VS XbX. I can’t see it as anything but. But I’m happy to listen to ideas on what else that differential can provide.
Suffice it to say, this difference will not be as wide as the difference between Pro and X today, of which even now we see bizarre dev decisions with instances of tearing and lower frames on X than Pro because Rez is being pushed over everything. I still don’t get it.
One thing the XbX doesn’t have is a next gen memory subsystem like the PS5. The discrepancy here unlike the GPU TF is significant. Especially once pc’s get their next gen ssd solutions, XbX will potentially be left behind over the course of time as these games get more and more dependent on this architecture. Obvious sacrifices may need to be made on XbX to accomodate the much slower streaming capability.
Anybody thinking off replying to my Next-Gen PS5 & XSX Speculation/Analysis/Leaks viewpoint in rude, aggressive, childish nonsense can go play on the street. Thank you.
Last edited:
Deeper Underground
Member
After watching the PS5 dive and reading Twitter and stuff today, I come back to NeoGAF and look at the Xbox fanboys and I just feel.....sorry for them? It’s like, you’ve been angry at a plastic box for so long, that as soon as it looks like you might get the win, you act like a damn fool and show your ass?
Then ironically, after everyone has had a chance to digest the information, more and more actual developers come out and start talking about how amazing PS5 is going to be and the speed of the console will help it make up the deficit and these same fanboys are so mad that not everyone is on board with them, start flinging shit like monkeys and accusing people of being paid shills by Sony and fanboys? Like it’s seriously, truly sad. Both consoles have their strengths and both consoles will have their weaknesses, but to some of these children, it’s life or death; black or white. It’s pathetic.
CJY
Banned
NXGamer spoke about this exact same thing in his latest video on PS5. Both MS and Sony have spoken about how the SSD can have a "multiplier effect" on the RAM because it allows you to allocate RAM usage more efficiently. I just think Sony went balls-to-the-wall with their implementation. It's definitely going to be awesome for both systems and gaming in general.
joshcrispy
Neo Member
man i just wanna pre order already so damn bad.
3liteDragon
Member
I just rewatched the PS5 GDC stream again, and I was just blown away by the amount of customization done to the system overall, and the amount of workload that’s been offloaded from the CPU and GPU itself. I’m willing to bet rn that when the games are shown off, and Digital Foundry do their comparison videos, performance between the Series X and PS5 will be neck and neck or even better on the PS5. There’s definitely a reason Cerny chose to go with a narrow and fast approach and I just don’t think we’re seeing the full picture here just yet. But I gotta say, they FUCKED UP big time by streaming this presentation on YouTube and all the technical stuff flew right by people’s heads, and now you have console warriors arguing over how PS5 must be weaker than the Series X because the spec sheet says so.
Once Sony shows off their games and have proper consumer-based demos showcasing their tech, all this teraflop discussion will instantly vanish. Mark my words.
Once Sony shows off their games and have proper consumer-based demos showcasing their tech, all this teraflop discussion will instantly vanish. Mark my words.
Shmunter
Member
CJY
Banned
You're right. I'm surprised too. Maybe they just didn't think of it. I'm sure if Sony are actually doing it, MS will probably follow-suit to free up more RAM for devs.
Also: A Windows subsystem is a vastly different beast than the Unix one in Playstation. It might be quite the engineering effort to make it happen. I'm sure it's possible, just exponentially harder.
Last edited:
3liteDragon
Member
Exactly this too.
Its 2.5 for the OS
This leaves 2.5GB of GDDR6 memory from the slower pool for the operating system and the front-end shell.
Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs
This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …
www.eurogamer.net
Deeper Underground
Member
Wait did Sony talk about the allocation between OS and general use for RAM? All they said was it was 256-bit, 16GB GDDR6.
CJY
Banned
No mention of it.
Shmunter
Member
All about hardware, nothing about software. We still don’t know anything about quality of life features unlike the XsX with suspending multiple games etc. killer feature Sony better be on top off too!
CJY
Banned
Read back up higher. Nobody is talking about reducing the OS footprint, but shifting that footprint in and out of RAM on-demand to save on RAM for devs.
Last edited:
CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
Nice, it just gets better and better doesn't it
Metroiddarks
Member
Actually is possible they just add a few GB of DDR4 to use for the OS and make free the other 16 for devs, they do somethign similar now in ps4/ps4 pro.
I remember Jim Ryan said ''many of those "bigger differences" between PS5 and PS4 haven't yet been announced" and for that time (january of this year) we know they include all those specs like
audio,raytracing, ssd. This were only marketing words or could exists another feature ?
Theres a large number of structures that are required to be memory for a modern operating system to work, you cannot page these out without major performance downsides. You can obviously jettison a lot of crap this time due to the fast HDD allowing you to stream a lot of what you need very quickly but thats just not going to work for some things.
Shmunter
Member
Ok thanks. Thought it was 3.5.Its 2.5 for the OS
This leaves 2.5GB of GDDR6 memory from the slower pool for the operating system and the front-end shell.
Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs
This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …
2.5 still too much with the tech at hand. But it could be due to the windows origins like CJY touched upon.
Shmunter
Member
Cerney acknowledged they sucked with previous gens and they are employing a power cap vs cpu/gpu throttling approach this time to combat it. So there's that, let's hope it works.
Last edited:
kyliethicc
Member
Jonsoncao
Banned
IIRC Cerny said it is gonna be better than PS4 and pro
However after I found out the insanely high GPU frequency is not thermal bounded rather power bounded, I am not very optimistic about the noise.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
There is a specific chest pumping type to the xbox crowd.
Given the emphasis they have put on sound output quality, AND that it was mentioned during that their previous consoles were lacking in the acoustics level department, so they have put special emphasis on that aspect... well without measurement, I assume the thing is pretty quiet.
Last edited:
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Hopefully. SeX is speedier and the ram is faster, but if Xbox One or X is an example, the OS runs slow as shit sometimes, unless you do a hard reboot. The MS Store loading all the icons is the worst.
These systems supposedly have 8gb of that NAND ram (whatever that is) + another few gbs of GDDR5 ram for the OS. Add it up and they probably have a good 10 gb for the OS and who knows where that ram goes.
Last edited:
Shmunter
Member
Downright puzzling
- Status