ethomaz
Banned
In number of GPU units yes but PS5 has some custom units into the APU not found in that possible RX 5700 refresh plus the APU have a full 8-core Zen 2 CPU.
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Neo_game
Member
I think someone already explained it. Since Microsoft has better compression That is how Xbox went to 4.8 gb/sec from 2.4 gb/sec raw. Where as PS5 could only reach to 9 gb /sec even though their raw bandwidth was 5.5 gb/sec. 4.8 gb/sec is max for the Xbox.
Shmunter
Member
This compression stuff needs further examination. Sony claims in excess of 20gb/s under high compression, so is the 9gb/s figure an average, or the minimum? Also not certain what the 50% means from MS, average? Minimum? Max?
No clear cut apples vs apples here.
Shmunter
Member
No standard SSD on PC, no suspend/resume of games on PC. Who wants to be tied down by such last gen tech?
I kid, I kid, settle down PC fans.
Rusco Da Vino
Member
That's a great compilation. It has great info too. But I find it suspect that there is zero mention of certain things, like BCPack. Because some developers believe it will outperform Kraken;
Here's a compilation of the tweets;
As for the Xbox getting issues with resolution due to the 'segmented' RAM, that's the typical response of devs throwing everything at the console without thought of any optimization. MS really is not that stupid. It would have been easier AND cheaper to simply pack 8 RAM chips of 2GB on the console, rather than 6 RAM chips of 2GB + 4 RAM chips of 1GB. Not to mention that if you're exceeding 8GB of RAM usage right now (let alone 10GB), you're simply doing things inefficiently. And, the way it was worded, "will have problems", indicates that the statement was made with no hands-on, but more as a presumption.
When you refers to "developers" who say that BCPack could outperform Kraken we also need to say that this speculation is comming from a former Microsoft employee.
So the rest of the users can get the full picture about the matter:
Also, this BCPack/Kraken thing was already addressed by him:
Moore's law is death:
"MS does not have better compression than Sony, that is BS"
"MS compression is worse according to developers"
Timestamped:
In any event, we will have the real data in a few weeks.
Funny times ahead, I guess
Funny times ahead, I guess
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SonGoku
Member
Cerny implied there would be a RDNA2 PC card based on PS5 GPU similar to how RX470/80 launched along side PS4 Pro
Mark Cerny said:
BluRayHiDef
Banned
It's a special iteration of RDNA: RDNA PS5.0.
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
When you refers to "developers" who say that BCPack could outperform Kraken we need to say also that this is comming from a former Microsoft employee.
So the rest of the users can get the full picture about the matter:
Also, this BCPack/Kraken thing was already addressed by him:
Moore's law is death: "MS does not have better compression than Sony, that is BS"
"MS compression is worse according to developers"
Timestamped:
Lmao I don’t want to get too much into the fanboy nonesense. But remember when PS5 specs where revealed by Sony, every Xbox fanboy downplayed the SSD claiming it would have no real benefit other than slightly faster load times, they called Cerny a liar for claiming the SSD could do more. I remember PS fanboys even jumped on the bandwagon and started attacking Cerny. Time went on and several developers along with tech geeks such as NX Gamer, Coreteks and others came out and revealed how the PS5 SSD is a game changer and that it will allow for games an experiences which are just not possible on the Series X or the PC. So now that people or should I say Xbox fanboys are actually learning and understanding that the PS5 SSD will have an impact on gameplay, experience and performance, they’re just doing mental gymnastics to explain how the Series X with it’s magical compression is equivalent or better than the PS5’s SSD and compression. Sony fanboys did the same thing when it came to the difference in Teraflops but that’s another subject.
EDIT: I just watched that Moore’sLawIsDead clip and I laughed when Tom completely shut down the Series X compression being better than PS5
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BluRayHiDef
Banned
Does anyone think that it's possible for Microsoft to increase the frequency of the XSX's GPU before launch? If so, by how much?
Shmunter
Member
Maybe, it also depends if the ludicrous clock speeds achieved by Sony are due to RDNA2 or due to some bespoke customization. MS decision to go slow and wide is a mystery as it's less cost effective - it could mean clocks were an issue. Total speculation.
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Rusco Da Vino
Member
Lmao I don’t want to get too much into the fanboy nonesense. But remember when PS5 specs where revealed by Sony, every Xbox fanboy downplayed the SSD claiming it would have no real benefit other than slightly faster load times, they called Cerny a liar for claiming the SSD could do more. I remember PS fanboys even jumped on the bandwagon and started attacking Cerny. Time went on and several developers along with tech geeks such as NX Gamer, Coreteks and others came out and revealed how the PS5 SSD is a game changer and that it will allow for games an experiences which are just not possible on the Series X or the PC. So now that people or should I say Xbox fanboys are actually learning and understanding that the PS5 SSD will have an impact on gameplay, experience and performance, they’re just doing mental gymnastics to explain how the Series X with it’s magical compression is equivalent or better than the PS5’s SSD and compression. Sony fanboys did the same thing when it came to the difference in Teraflops but that’s another subject.
EDIT: I just watched that Moore’sLawIsDead clip and I laughed when Tom completely shut down the Series X compression being better than PS5
I dont really understand that obsession of donwplaying the PS5 as a full time job when in a few weeks we are all going to know the real data.
The BCPack thing is hilarious: This joke is coming from a tweet from the guy I posted before. The guy even says that "We don't have any real details yet" but yet he starts a wild speculation about BCPack thing without any kind of evidence or real fundament.
Then TimDog & co do the rest
Agnostic2020
Member
So u mean typical fake news a certain discord creates for team green? Like our own resident memeber who says one CU is reserved for Tempest engine without a single evidence and one sentence from digital foundry ?I dont really understand that obsession of donwplaying the PS5 as a full time job when in a few weeks we are all going to know the real data.
The BCPack thing is hilarious: This joke is coming from a tweet from the guy I posted before. The guy even says that "We don't have any real details yet" but yet he starts a wild speculation about BCPack thing without any kind of evidence or real fundament.
Then TimDog & co do the rest
I m shocked.
BluRayHiDef
Banned
I am not sure if this has already been talked about earlier but since I have not seen it I will post it here. There is a LOT of information so I have put it in pictures.
The following information is taken from ”Moore’s law is dead” youtube channel and specially from his comment section where he talks more indepth what third party developer have told him and his personal analysis.
The comments come from several diffrent videos. Important to know is that his sources are all third party developers and he has inside information om both consoles.
Leaked images and info:
His Info from comment sections:
This is all very fascinating.
rnlval
Member
I am not sure if this has already been talked about earlier but since I have not seen it I will post it here. There is a LOT of information so I have put it in pictures.
The following information is taken from ”Moore’s law is dead” youtube channel and specially from his comment section where he talks more indepth what third party developer have told him and his personal analysis.
The comments come from several diffrent videos. Important to know is that his sources are all third party developers and he has inside information om both consoles.
Leaked images and info:
His Info from comment sections:
From https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs
https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gears_of_war_5_pc_graphics_performance_benchmark_review,6.html
Gears 5 with PC Ultra settings at 4K
Scale RX 5700 XT's 9.66 TFLOPS** into XSX's 12.147 TFLOPS and it lands on RTX 2080 class level i.e. 50 fps
**Based from real-world average clock speed for RX 5700 XT from https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt/34.html
12.147 / 9.66 = 1.25745 or 25.745%, hence XSX GPU has ~25.75% extra TFLOPS over RX 5700 XT.
Gears 5's result rankings closely follows Techpowerup's performance summary
Sapphire Radeon RX 5600 XT Pulse Review
Sapphire's RX 5600 XT Pulse comes at $289, which is only a small $10 premium over the AMD MSRP, yet it's faster than the GeForce RTX 2060. The card's cooler does a great job and delivers good temperatures paired with amazing noise levels, and it has fan-stop, too.
CU increase also scales SRAM storage (e.g. register, L0/L1 caches, LDS), texture mapper, texture filtering units and RT cores.
Rasterizer and RBs has higher SRAM storage pool with 52 CU when compared to 32 CU model.
Higher SRAM storage = less external memory bus hit rates.
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rnlval
Member
You haven't proved any additional information on in low–order interleaving. You're a hypocrite.
rnlval
Member
The narrative changes when "PS5" added to the original article.original interview with word PS5 absent speaking about ssds....Also s on consoles on the quote was a hint.
Interview: Halo’s co-creator on building a new universe with Disintegration | VGC
Marcus Lehto discusses single-player, remote working and SSD tech…www.videogameschronicle.com
Agnostic2020
Member
Thing 1 and Thing 2 are starting to make the rounds into certain articles....
LOL
This is the dude Phil tells all his secrets to?
"Dont respond to greeny like that."
"You droolz." LMFAO Is this dude in 2nd grade?
Someone want to explain who "we" is? lmfao
"We get AMD tattoo. They Ms now."
He is passed saving . Let him be haha
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xacto
Member
Thing 1 and Thing 2 are starting to make the rounds into certain articles....
LOL
This is the dude Phil tells all his secrets to?
"Dont respond to greeny like that."
"You droolz." LMFAO Is this dude in 2nd grade?
Someone want to explain who "we" is? lmfao
I've seen 12 year old kids with more common sense than this guy. He's tripping badly.
Ascend
Member
When you refers to "developers" who say that BCPack could outperform Kraken we also need to say that this speculation is comming from a former Microsoft employee.
So the rest of the users can get the full picture about the matter:
Also, this BCPack/Kraken thing was already addressed by him:
Moore's law is death:
"MS does not have better compression than Sony, that is BS"
"MS compression is worse according to developers"
Timestamped:
In any event, we will have the real data in a few weeks.
Funny times ahead, I guess
Yeah. He's a former MS employee. So what?
I guess we'll have to wait and see. There's too many holes in the information to draw a definite conclusion.
And it's quite convenient to leave out the little fact that he mentions that he doesn't know if the PS5 setup is really going to work or not, because they have not shown any games.
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icy121
Member
His name has been mentioned in a few articles and couldn't help it. LOL. Why these articles are citing him as an "insider" is beyond me."We get AMD tattoo. They would be Ms now."
He is passed saving . Let him be haha
Agnostic2020
Member
Slow news day combined with new era of journalism from creating articles based on YouTube comments and tim dog. They need them clicks
Appleprosy
Member
At the end of the day, it comes down to exclusives.
lepermessiah
Member
At the end of the day, it comes down to..."I am authority."
THEAP99
Banned
This guy sat in his car outside of Best Buy,watching Someone to see if they’d walk out with an Xbox One and proceeded to scream “NPD ON LOCK.”Thing 1 and Thing 2 are starting to make the rounds into certain articles....
LOL
This is the dude Phil tells all his secrets to?
"Dont respond to greeny like that."
"You droolz." LMFAO Is this dude in 2nd grade?
Someone want to explain who "we" is? lmfao
I really don’t like the new Xbox are constantly giving attention to people like him
Neo Blaster
Member
Where is this coming from? ZhugeEX? Sony's investors presentation schedule sheet?
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
No, that would be the same. The internal CU structure is the same across the two models and, architecture wise, the RB’s and Rasterisers use the L2 cache shared in the Shader Array they belong to, not the internal CU storage.
You have more CU’s so you have both more per CU specific cache, but more mouths to feed too (the vector ALU’s inside each CU) so memory bus fetched on cache miss scenarios would be unaffected compared to a solution with less CU’s.
If you were increasing per Shader Array cache as you add CU’s to the Shader Array you would be mostly keeping the cache hit ratio from getting worse than a solution with less CU’s, not making it better unless you went really overboard with it.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
The fact people like Timdog are invited to events and passed info from time to time by MS feels odd... also at odds with Phil’s anti console war messaging when others in Xbox cultivate those kind of fans and support their astroturfing.
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Metroiddarks
Member
How do these people live long enough to become adults?Thing 1 and Thing 2 are starting to make the rounds into certain articles....
LOL
This is the dude Phil tells all his secrets to?
"Dont respond to greeny like that."
"You droolz." LMFAO Is this dude in 2nd grade?
Someone want to explain who "we" is? lmfao
One would think that these people are capable of confusing drinking water with another transparent liquid.
Gamerguy84
Member
Was Timdog ever a member here. This guy is an embarrassment. How can someone be an adult and such a console warrior? Where does that get you in real life?
Im not talking about preference, we all have those. Timdog is a moron though, inless MS is sending him checks.
Im not talking about preference, we all have those. Timdog is a moron though, inless MS is sending him checks.
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llien
Member
Compression algorithms TAILORED for specific data outperform generic algorithms (else there would be no point in their existence, e.g. lossless audio compression).
Note that Kraken is not something Sony has developed.
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FeiRR
Banned
That's why console architects are trying to find other ways to deliver content than keeping it in RAM. I mean, at least one console architect is. We have heard little details from the other side besides a bunch of marketing slogans.
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xacto
Member
Just the thought that this guy could be someone's coworker sends shivers down my spine... The problem lies with Microsoft or some of the people at Microsoft endorsing this guy.
Anyway, the way this person behaves is really a combination of histrionic and narcissistic personality disorders. Both medical disorders. There is not a person in this world who can convince me this individual is a sane one.
bumleforce
Member
Hey so Do we think Lockheart is going to be a
A streaming Box
1080P 60 fps system
1440P 60 FPS system
or a switch type device?
Iv heard rumors for all these so just wanted to see what people think. I personally would like a switch like xbox device and I know people say x cloud but it would be nice to have a dedicated device. Would do well in Asian countries in my opinion.
Also Couldn't you technically run a series X game on a xbox one S though x cloud? If thats the case any xbox could run a series x quality game.
A streaming Box
1080P 60 fps system
1440P 60 FPS system
or a switch type device?
Iv heard rumors for all these so just wanted to see what people think. I personally would like a switch like xbox device and I know people say x cloud but it would be nice to have a dedicated device. Would do well in Asian countries in my opinion.
Also Couldn't you technically run a series X game on a xbox one S though x cloud? If thats the case any xbox could run a series x quality game.
Agnostic2020
Member
No a digital only 1080p machine . Github for the tests shows its a 4tf console . U don't need 4tf with zen cpu for streaming.
Amd code name for it is sparkman .
ThatPolishGuy
Member
I guess a 1440P 60FPS system, 1080p is so last gen, 4k is out of the question since if Lockheart is a thing it would be less powerful than it's bigger brother and it wouldn't hit 60fps at 4k. 1440p with checkerboard is nice enough on PS4 Pro, I could easily see a bit more powerful 4-6 flops machine on RDNA2 pull this off - dunno about 60fps thou but maybe it will be double. Or they could use 1080p 60fps system with DLSS 2.0 thingie and it would get us 4k image at minimal cost of performance it's crazy what we can do now.
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Average for games is 2x compressed.
If there was any trick to compress further it would be used in hdd days.
So Sony's 5.5->9 is conservative, while MSFT's 2.4->4.8 is average.
xool
Member
Seems good.
Seems they are calling this "coherency engine", built into the IO part of the APU
(18m52s)
idk if this is a unique or RDNA2 feature
Shmunter
Member
Thank you. So we can safely assume 2x raw is the ballpark figure.
BCPack will increase the compression ratio on texture data. So we need more information but it seems to be at least 50% better than Kraken at texture data.
I am curious about what hardware features he is talking about that aren´t yet revealed by Sony and Microsoft. I don´t know what features that could be
xool
Member
Despite their different "brand names" there's no secret sauce in texture compression - I wouldn't expect either of MS or Sony's solutions to give better compression than the other given the same data (+/- 10%)
Both gave compression to data ratios of roughy 2x improvment - I'd expect that to be real world.
It just shifts Sony's 2.x times SSD advantage to higher numbers .. same ratio.
Both systems have hardware accelerated decompression too - but there's not enough info to say if one is better than the other (in terms of speed) .. I'd expect them to be similar in performance, though maybe Sony's would be beefier inline with the higher SSD throughput they are expecting..
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ethomaz
Banned
Just to be clear.
The 30-40% of Kraken compression from Sony is what you typical get with game assets with lossless compression.
The BCPack 50% is lossy compression (loss of quality like JPEG) for textures only.
But no matter how amazing the Xbox compression is it will never catch the difference between raw SSD speeds.
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geordiemp
Member
No, even go read the tweets by the BCpack guy, he says they are similar if Kraken uses RDO on the data.
So Kraken + RDO = BCPack was even in his tweets.
ZywyPL
Banned
Well, last gen TVs are indeed 1080p, so it would make more than perfect sense. I dunno why people come up with 1440p every now and then when talking about consoles, when they are more than fully aware 1440p doesn't exist on TV market... QHD is roughly 80% more pixels than FHD, so more GPU power and possibly memory/bandwidth required, while the visible difference would be close to none, on a device that's suppose to be as cheap as possible. If anything, I'd expect 720p, if not even 540p with AI upscalling, to use as tiny (cheap) GPU as possible.
This might be it:
An Xbox Game Studio Is Experimenting with Shipping Low-Res Textures To Be AI-Upscaled in Real Time
One of the Xbox Game Studios is experimenting with Machine Learning to ship low-res textures that are then upscaled in real time with AI.
wccftech.com
If MS could actually incorporate AI upscaling on top of BCP in actual games, that could mean they have much less data (GB) to transfer.
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BattleScar
Member
The compressed bandwidth includes compression. With your calculation you've included it twice.
ethomaz
Banned
It is because Kraken is lossless... if you somehow makes Kraken lossy it will get the same level of compression as BCPack.
BCPack is made for textures so it can be lossy like JPEG... Kraken is for general data so the data uncompressed needs to be the same before compressed.
MS uses Zlib for data that needs to be the same after compress/uncompress... Kraken has better compression ratio than Zlib.
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xool
Member
No such tests exist.
Lunatic_Gamer
Gold Member
Halo’s co-creator says PS5’s SSD tech ‘will make a huge difference’ for designers | VGC
“It will open up the door for more expansive content”…
www.videogameschronicle.com
The PS5 SSD might be a true game changer. Exciting times ahead.
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