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Neo Blaster
Member
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sircaw
Banned
We already have the perfect sacrifice:
Edit: beaten
Maybe i got the date wrong but i thought it was Bo's birthday tomorrow.
I was thinking moon and sun alignment Dammit.
ArcaneNLSC
Member
I don't know man, it's just normal discussions and healthy debates, although they can contain spicy information which is still healthy, I guess.
Along with bbq sausage and roasted nuts
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I believe it's the SSD itself, otherwise he won't complain about the 2 priority levels in the NVMe m.2:
Specifically, PCIe 4.0-based drives that deliver only two priority levels to developers, as is standard with the current NVME specification. The PS5 SSD, by comparison, offers six priority levels, with Cerny explaining that vetted third-party SSDs will need to meet certain speed thresholds to be compatible. As a result, it might be a while before you'll be able to expand your SSD storage.
"It would be great if [SSD compatibility testing] would be done by launch, but it's likely to be a bit past it," Cerny stated. "So please hold off on getting a M.2 drive until you hear from us."
PS5-Compatible SSD Storage May Not Be Ready Until After Launch
You might have to wait some time after launch before being able to upgrade your SSD.
www.gamespot.com
MasterCornholio
Member
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sircaw
Banned
Burn Him, Burn Him, Burn Him.
HAL-01
Member
Sony AI division specifies games as one of its three flagship projects. So yes Sony very much means Playstation in this sense.
Nothing wrong with posting your informed opinion. I have a problem with people presenting their opinion as a matter of fact, though.
Thank you for "informing" us to "not expect any significant AI system working on next gen machines", even after you admitted that you "never heard Sony stuff so (you) can't comment on that", which shows how terribly informed you were about it in the first place.
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bitbydeath
Member
Looking back at the first wired article Mark Cerny never states 8K resolution just 8K graphics which is what we did see in the Unreal 5 demo.
thurnishaleygw
Member
And just like that:Sony AI division specifies games as one of its three flagship projects. So yes Sony very much means Playstation in this sense.
Nothing wrong with posting your informed opinion. I have a problem with people presenting their opinion as a matter of fact, though.
Thank you for "informing" us to "not expect any significant AI system working on next gen machines", even after you admitted that you "never heard Sony stuff so (you) can't comment on that", which shows how terribly informed you were about it in the first place.
sircaw
Banned
Great questions, and it's time to give this matter more attention, let's forget 5.5GB/s vs 2.4GB/s or even 7GB/s max PCIe 4.0 for a moment now:
Current NVMe m.2 uses 4 channels vs 12 channels on PS5:
PS5 has 6 priority levels vs 2 priority levels on NVMe m.2:
Why 6 priority levels is crucial for gaming and how 2 priority levels can be a massive downgrade to game design and logic:
On other platforms with a slower SSD speed/design that can't keep up they might cripple in framerates, especially when turning around or moving:
Now, the issue with traditional GPU caches is they all flush everything and bring new data everytime, that could damage the GPU performance no matter how powerful it is and cause stalls. The GPU cache scrubbers, first of their kind and exclusive to PS5, along with coherency engines help to only take out unwanted data and keep what's needed and replace the space with new data, helping it to produce a seamless transition and maximum utilization of GPU/CPU/RAM and less bandwidth used as well.
Now, the PS5 I/O itself is as powerful as 11.5 to 12 ZEN2 cores, meaning to compensate for it alone you might need Ryzen Threadripper 2970WX processor, 24 core and you'll still fall short when The Tempest 3D Audio engine thrown to the mix, a GPU-based, SPU-like. Let's not forget Windows OS compared to simple API's.
While the NVMe m.2 has 2 priority levels:
PS5's custom SSD has 6 to make 6 different orders:
And while PS5's SSD uses 12 channels to fully reach its optimal 5.5GB/s raw, XSX SSD cramps into 4 channels which could cause more heat, throttling, and latency. So the 5.5GB/s vs 2.4GB/s direct comparison is not viable, and the difference in hardware is quite big and can't be bridged through software or even make the starting point 5.5 vs 2.4 possible.
It's very, very complicated to try and replicate PS5's overall SSD and I/O performance on PC's, and yes it's currently impossible without major architectural changes. We still need to see the placement of PS5's SSD, it can be extremely close, stacked, to even make us understand how insanely hard to beat it in the near future without assistance from massive RAM sizes.
Remember, 12 channels and 6 priority levels, and the later is crucial for game design and logic. Even if both are 2.4GB/s or 5.5GB/s PS5's customization will still give it the upper hand.
I believe Sony is working on a new architecture for m.2 drives along with other companies that's superior to current NVMe, and they just don't wanna spoil it right now.
More educated people in the matter may contribute or correct me here.
This really is a super post.
Extremely interesting reading
MasterCornholio
Member
Looking back at the first wired article Mark Cerny never states 8K resolution just 8K graphics which is what we did see in the Unreal 5 demo.
Really really high quality assets which is where the SSD comes into play.
Didn't Microsoft make a similar claim?
thurnishaleygw
Member
Yeah, they've made reference to 8K support as well, if I remember correctly.
Insane Metal
Member
Tuesday or Thursday. That's the question.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Thanks a lot, mate. It's an overlooked matter that people seemed to talk about SSD bottlenecks without pointing them out. Mark Cerny did a good job explaining them, as usual. We get to realize his words the more we see actual evidence like the recent UE5 that all of the Epic Games top execs praised the hard work behind the PS5's SSD and I/O.
thurnishaleygw
Member
Soony
MasterCornholio
Member
Bo_Hazem
Banned
It's about 8K output, mostly, for 8K TV's. Just like PS4 Slim and Xbox One S supporting 4K. You'll see some 8K games occasionally, but you'll need to hit 4K@120fps to reach 8K@30fps, and 4K@240fps (hence, GT7) to reach 8K@60fps.
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thurnishaleygw
Member
Killer Sakoman
Member
They announced ps4 and showed killzone SF before the TLOU release in 2013. TLOU sold shit tons of copies.
What's your problem?
thurnishaleygw
Member
Well I'm not planning on buying an 8K display for a few years, so it's not gonna do that much for me anyway.
MasterCornholio
Member
bitbydeath
Member
They said 8K resolution.
Xbox Series X specs and features confirmed so far, including 8K and 120 FPS support, SSD, CPU and GPU Teraflops details
Everything we know about Microsoft's next console, the Xbox Series X - including Xbox Series X specs and confirmed feat…
www.eurogamer.net
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I nearly bought Samsung Q900R and got broke. Thankfully, I stopped. 8K TV's are insane, but not much videos supporting it yet. I'm planning to get one when microLED hit the market. Although I got HDR 4K now, I'll get Sony's new XH90 for 4K@120Hz, VRR, ALLM. Not sure about the size, between 65-85" (65" is the most sensible so far), depending on how stunned when I sit right in front of it as I go crazy near new electronics. I sit ~2 meters away when gaming and on PC now
. I fell in love with 85" when I saw a Sony 85" that's close to my chest standing on the ground!
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yewles1
Member
Not really to do with 8K textures, it has more to do with outputting at upscaled 8K for TV's that support it and smaller indie titles that may render 8K natively or close to that.Looking back at the first wired article Mark Cerny never states 8K resolution just 8K graphics which is what we did see in the Unreal 5 demo.
bitbydeath
Member
Graphics = textures though.
3liteDragon
Member
For those of you that don’t know, machine learning has been confirmed for PS5 way back in October 2019 with the second Wired article.
Laura Miele, Chief Studio Officer at EA:
www.wired.com
Laura Miele, Chief Studio Officer at EA:
Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5
Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.
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saintjules
Member
I mean, take it for what it's worth, but I wouldn't doubt Microsoft trying to pull this angle. September with Series X to get ahead, then use Lockhart to counter PS5 as much as possible when it releases. Pincer attack if done right.
ethomaz
Banned
So how can you put a standard M.2 works since it match determined speed?I believe it's the SSD itself, otherwise he won't complain about the 2 priority levels in the NVMe m.2:
Specifically, PCIe 4.0-based drives that deliver only two priority levels to developers, as is standard with the current NVME specification. The PS5 SSD, by comparison, offers six priority levels, with Cerny explaining that vetted third-party SSDs will need to meet certain speed thresholds to be compatible. As a result, it might be a while before you'll be able to expand your SSD storage.
"It would be great if [SSD compatibility testing] would be done by launch, but it's likely to be a bit past it," Cerny stated. "So please hold off on getting a M.2 drive until you hear from us."
PS5-Compatible SSD Storage May Not Be Ready Until After Launch
You might have to wait some time after launch before being able to upgrade your SSD.
It doesn’t need these 6 priorities levels or 12 lanes since it has enough speed.
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B_Boss
Member
.
Handy Fake
Member
Looks like M.Bison...
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
That's because it is. He actually did a drawing/design of M. Bison as well. Dam I miss playing the classic Street Fighter 2! Off topic...my bad.
3liteDragon
Member
Good, now we can discuss. Do all games have stories? No. Do all games have deep story-telling, lots of cinematic cut scenes? No.
With new AI tech, you can even replicate someone's voice so you don't need more than one person to do it for you:
Now, many hours are spent for animation as well, but new animation tech can provide natural animations without a lot of time and money spent on actors and settings, not to mention animals which is the hardest:
You don't need to bake lighting anymore with UE5 at least with Lumen:
Lumen is a fully dynamic global illumination solution that immediately reacts to scene and light changes. The system renders diffuse interreflection with infinite bounces and indirect specular reflections in huge, detailed environments, at scales ranging from kilometers to millimeters. Artists and designers can create more dynamic scenes using Lumen, for example, changing the sun angle for time of day, turning on a flashlight, or blowing a hole in the ceiling, and indirect lighting will adapt accordingly. Lumen erases the need to wait for lightmap bakes to finish and to author light map UVs—a huge time savings when an artist can move a light inside the Unreal Editor and lighting looks the same as when the game is run on console.
A first look at Unreal Engine 5
Get a glimpse of new and improved real-time rendering features currently in development.www.unrealengine.com
World design:
Nanite virtualized micropolygon geometry frees artists to create as much geometric detail as the eye can see. Nanite virtualized geometry means that film-quality source art comprising hundreds of millions or billions of polygons can be imported directly into Unreal Engine—anything from ZBrush sculpts to photogrammetry scans to CAD data—and it just works. Nanite geometry is streamed and scaled in real time so there are no more polygon count budgets, polygon memory budgets, or draw count budgets; there is no need to bake details to normal maps or manually author LODs; and there is no loss in quality.
A first look at Unreal Engine 5
Get a glimpse of new and improved real-time rendering features currently in development.
And:
In a recent interview, Lost Wing developer Tim Ash of BoxFrog Games discusses how the PlayStation 5 will improve and quicken the development process.
PS5 CPU Will Make Development Time Faster
In a recent interview, Lost Wing developer Tim Ash of BoxFrog Games discusses how the PlayStation 5 will improve and quicken the development process.gamerant.com
Now something is specific to PS5:
The developers are saying PlayStation 5 is the easiest console they have ever coded on to reach its peak performance. Software-wise, coding for PS5 is extremely simple and has so many abilities that make the [developers] so free. In total, I can say PS5 is a better console.
PS5 is 'a better console' says Crytek engineer, simpler to develop for
A Crytek rendering engineer believes the PS5 is the ‘better’ console compared to the Xbox Series X and is much simpler to make games for.metro.co.uk
==========
So, accordingly, I think half the time is possible, a personal opinion that I hope it doesn't offend anyone here.
EDIT: Thanks toNeo Blaster , time to develop cycle according to Mark Cerny:
Jesus Christ, pretty much takes a YEAR at max to learn how to use the new API’s for PS3. Can only imagine the pain and suffering these devs must’ve gone through for the first 5 years of the console’s lifespan.
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Tripolygon
Banned
Machine Learning research for hand pose estimation for VR controller.
Everybody is doing machine learning and AI research.
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thebigmanjosh
Member
They make the comment in direct relation to TV resolution and even say they needed to show it on a 4K tv because 8k screens aren’t readily available. I think it’s a stretch to assume anything else.
Shmunter
Member
I suspect the PS5 controller will grab a bigger block from the M.2 and discard a portion off it before passing it down the line for decompression, etc. Essentially the 7gig speed overhead is to overcome the reduced efficiency.
As far as latency, not sure. It’s possible why Sony is still to evaluate what works and what doesn’t. Basic brute force speed overhead is likely not sufficient on its own.
Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Hawking Radiation
Member
ethomaz
Banned
I found something interesting.
Priority levels are part of the host -interface protocol (eg. NVMe) and not the hardware SSD.
That means it is a software logic on host.
So any SSD put on PS5 will work with six priority levels while motherboards using NVMe will have only two.
That basically explain it... the six priority levels are the custom software implemented by Sony on PS5 SSD interface protocol probably inside the custom I/O processor.
All makes sense now.
Priority levels are part of the host -interface protocol (eg. NVMe) and not the hardware SSD.
That means it is a software logic on host.
So any SSD put on PS5 will work with six priority levels while motherboards using NVMe will have only two.
That basically explain it... the six priority levels are the custom software implemented by Sony on PS5 SSD interface protocol probably inside the custom I/O processor.
All makes sense now.
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Neo Blaster
Member
To me it will be more likeAnd when they finally announce it I ask myself this...
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Lunatic_Gamer
Gold Member
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Another problem is heat generated, does 12 lanes help out with that? Not sure. NVMe m.2 tend to buffer and it's hard to sustain the advertised peak number, and 6 priority levels is needed to make 6 orders in parallel instead of waiting in queues and lags. I hope they figure it out, if they made a new proprietary architecture with 12 channels that you plug like rams it would've been better, but they still have Vita nightmares.
And that's only trying to get fimiliar with it, it's quite insane. Actually Cerny talked about it as kinda of a smart ass move to show how intelligent they are that can make better games in a very complicated tech yet powerful, and that indeed backfired.
HAL-01
Member
Cerny specifies that NVME drives have their own flash controller with 2 priority levels. The custom hardware in the PS5 will have to arbitrate them, and thats why they need to be a bit faster than the internal drive. here's the time stamped video:I found something interesting.
Priority levels are part of the host -interface protocol (eg. NVMe) and not the hardware SSD.
That means it is a software logic on host.
So any SSD put on PS5 will work with six priority levels while motherboards using NVMe will have only two.
That basically explain it... the six priority levels are the custom software implemented by Sony on PS5 SSD interface protocol probably inside the custom I/O processor.
All makes sense now.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
That's the beauty of the SSD and engines that make use of it like UE5.
I completely expect that level of fidelity when you zoom in on character models.
No longer will we have this distinction between high asset characters in cinematics vs gameplay.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
bitbydeath
Member
Could get some amazing graphics next-gen.
Killer Sakoman
Member
Just because they can push lossless assets doesn't mean they shoul. Actually, they can reduce the triangle count of this sculpt and utilize textures and normal maps with a minimum to zero effect on quality.
Also AFAIK, the complex topology of these lossless sculpt may not allow for good animation.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Reports of PS5 using less RAM for the OS compared to PS4, and Tom assumes 1-2GB in Moore's Law is Dead channel: (timestamped)
Thanks to
Rusco Da Vino
for the catch, it's a pretty lengthy podcast to dive into.
Thanks to
Rusco Da Vino
for the catch, it's a pretty lengthy podcast to dive into.
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