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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

Aug 28, 2019
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If compression is improved by say 25%, elimination of duplicate data reducing 25% of install size, and game sizes grow by 50% on average for big games, this doesn’t seem like this big problem you’re making out to be. Ray traced reflections and global illumination also help saving data.

It would be such an obvious fuck up don’t you think? The bottleneck will be budget and the biggest bottleneck will be artistry.

You will still see re-use of assets, it’s just that they won’t be duplicated in storage.
So that would be twice the asset fidelity roughly (subtract the lack of need for duplicates, subtract for compression, but 50% bigger game). and my question continues to remain. Why do you need 100x's the I/O speed if you are only doubling the amount of data you are putting on screen throughout a game compared to last gen?

To take advantage of being able to stream gigabytes of data per second you need gigabytes of detail per second to make sense of it.

I don't see how it won't be THE bottleneck. I'm struggling to understand how it won't be a bigger bottleneck than I/O speed.
 
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gullideckel

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“We’ve been working super close with Sony for quite a long time on storage,” he says. “The storage architecture on the PS5 is far ahead of anything you can buy on anything on PC for any amount of money right now. It’s going to help drive future PCs. [The PC market is] going to see this thing ship and say, ‘Oh wow, SSDs are going to need to catch up with this.”

omg!! has dictator already commited suicide after reading this?
 

pasterpl

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Maybe that's the stream they r analysing cause he explicitly said running 4k in the stream.
not really

And that, in a nutshell, is the definition of a micro-polygon engine. The cost in terms of GPU resources is likely to be very high, but with next-gen, there's the horsepower to pull it off and the advantages are self-evident. Rendering one triangle per pixel essentially means that performance scales closely with resolution. "Interestingly, it does work very well with our dynamic resolution technique as well," adds Penwarden. "So, when GPU load gets high we can lower the screen resolution a bit and then we can adapt to that. In the demo we actually did use dynamic resolution, although it ends up rendering at about 1440p most of the time."
from the df article
 

pasterpl

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Going back to it, I think HellBlade 2 is a step up from what we saw today.

Did they ever confirm how that footage was exactly captured? I remember the term 'in-engine', 'real time' both thrown about at the time of reveal. But was it running on a Series X dev-kit?
Our gut feeling here is that the Hellblade asset is exactly what it says it is - in-engine and likely not real-time.
 

Solid_Rain

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Going back to it, I think HellBlade 2 is a step up from what we saw today.

Did they ever confirm how that footage was exactly captured? I remember the term 'in-engine', 'real time' both thrown about at the time of reveal. But was it running on a Series X dev-kit?
Inconclusive at the moment. DF were also unsure (but leaning more towards it being in-engine because of the frame-rate):

Maybe just too early to tell but MS' July event is not so far away.
 
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Thirty7ven

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So that would be twice the asset fidelity roughly (subtract the lack of need for duplicates, subtract for compression, but 50% bigger game). and my question continues to remain. Why do you need 100x's the I/O speed if you are only doubling the amount of data you are putting on screen throughout a game compared to last gen?

To take advantage of being able to stream gigabytes of data per second you need gigabytes of detail per second to make sense of it.

I don't see how it won't be THE bottleneck. I'm struggling to understand how it won't be a bigger bottleneck than I/O speed.
Think of it like numbers.

If I only give you 4 numbers, how many permutations can you do? What if I give you 8? Twice the numbers right should be twice the permutations right?
 
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Aug 28, 2019
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That makes absolutely no sense... if something is running in a game engine, it's running in real time. Game engines don't compile generated CGI lol

It's just likely a scripted sequence. But a scripted sequence should have fidelity similar to what we saw today from Epic. A demo of an engine without any game systems running like enemy AI is essentially the same as an in-engine scripted cut scene. Minus maybe some optimizations they can do for the cut-scene.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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Think of it like numbers.

If I only give you 4 numbers, how many permutations can you do? What if I give you 8? Twice the numbers right should be twice the permutations right?
Yes I understand you can also increase the variety of objects in a scene and mix and match them to create the appearance of uniqueness.

Another thing that doesn't require 100 times the I/O speed.... and only really gets you so far since what we saw today was about the immense details of a single model on screen.
 
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scie

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Going back to it, I think HellBlade 2 is a step up from what we saw today.

Did they ever confirm how that footage was exactly captured? I remember the term 'in-engine', 'real time' both thrown about at the time of reveal. But was it running on a Series X dev-kit?
No, they only said "in-engine". I remeber that also DF had a video about that Hellblade 2 video and they said, that it was strange, because you couldn´t see LOD transitions. Maybe that "in-engine" wasn´t UE4, but UE5? I wouldn´t be surprised if major UE engine user like some big publishers will get their hands on new UE tech early.
 
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DeepEnigma

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Going back to it, I think HellBlade 2 is a step up from what we saw today.

Did they ever confirm how that footage was exactly captured? I remember the term 'in-engine', 'real time' both thrown about at the time of reveal. But was it running on a Series X dev-kit?
Hellblade was a 24fps video. A cutscene.

This Epic demo was an actual real time gameplay prototype.
 

Handy Fake

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That makes absolutely no sense... if something is running in a game engine, it's running in real time. Game engines don't compile generated CGI lol

It's just likely a scripted sequence. But a scripted sequence should have fidelity similar to what we saw today from Epic. A demo of an engine without any game systems running like enemy AI is essentially the same as an in-engine scripted cut scene. Minus maybe some optimizations they can do for the cut-scene.
That's not quite right.
Think of it like the cut scenes in Uncharted 4.
 
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Delpij

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I can't even imagine what a game like Horizon Zero Dawn 2 will look on PS5.
Personally, my most anticipated game announcement is... Ratchet & Clank.
I've always thought Insomniac Games would be the first to reach CGI level in their games, and I trust Sony's acquisition of the studio will prove instrumental to the PS5 launch.

Not to mention this Spiderman thingy.

This generation might change the entire media industry as we know it.
I hope the next announcement will confirm this hunch.
 

Vae_Victis

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Without massively increasing detail... all you've done in the scenario you describe is eliminate load times... and remove the need for RAM.... but.. we've likely doubled usable RAM this gen.. why again?

And what bizarro world do you guys live in where you've missed that the PS5 will be capable of massively increasing DETAIL because the PS5 can stream gigabytes of assets constantly?

"That's not the point"? WHAT?
Speaking in general, if last gen you had 1080p textures at most, now you'll move to 4K textures at most. That's the upper limit, you don't need more if you're never going to render at more than 4K. Textures are a decent chunk of the game file, so that is effectively "capped" no matter what. Also, if games use a system like the one shown today they can get rid of all the alternative LOD versions of textures, since the highest quality one is always used and scaled dynamically by the engine.

Models are not as heavy in comparison, and as far as I know they are easier to compress significantly compared to textures (them being vectors rather than rasters probably helps in that?). Logic and general code might increase in size for games that implement more complex systems, but definitely not exponentially. Sound should not be drastically different either, since all the additional technology for 3D distribution happens during processing and nothing suggests assets will need to be different to begin with.

There is also a huge re-use of textures and assets in games, because no developer could go and model and texture every brick and rock individually. This has always been the case, and won't change now.

On top of everything else, all this stuff is compressed on the SSD and gets de-compressed on the fly during the transfer to RAM (not for nothing PS5 has a dedicated decompressor chip). Going by Sony's data of transfer rate for compressed and uncompressed assets, it's probably a further reduction by about a factor of two.

Regarding your reasoning, being able to transfer 8-9 GB of effective assets a second doesn't mean you are going to move hundreds of thousands of GB of different assets form the SSD in a matter of minutes. First of all because you will be streaming the same stuff in-and-out constantly in similar environments. Second, because most transfers need to happen at a frame or sub-frame pace, so they couldn't occupy GBs of their own to begin with, not even at these speeds. If you assume you are in an environment and you see 33% of it at any given time, that 33% can't weight 12-15 GB on RAM (let alone on disk) for the simple reason that you could not possibly conjure up the remaining 66% fast enough (rotating completely in one second, which is relatively slow, would require you to pull out an additional 25+ GB of stuff, which you obviously can't do in a second).

Game size will probably grow in the end, but once we take into account an approximate 20-25% reduction due to no longer needing to repeat assets in multiple points of the storage, I'd wager for most games we're looking at something in the range of 75-100GB rather than the 40-60 GB we have now. Definitely nowhere on the same scale as the increase in disk transfer speed (x 100).
 
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Aug 28, 2019
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That's not quite right.
Think of it like the cut scenes in Uncharted 4.
That's exactly what I'm describing?

UC4 doesn't pre-render it's cutscenes; they run in real time in-engine. In-engine IS real time..

The fidelity boost is due to not actually running game systems like enemy AI or any dynamic systems, and potentially being able to further optimize the scene (they don't need to load unnecessary data so can potentially increase fidelity.)
 
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Ascend

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That makes absolutely no sense... if something is running in a game engine, it's running in real time. Game engines don't compile generated CGI lol

It's just likely a scripted sequence. But a scripted sequence should have fidelity similar to what we saw today from Epic. A demo of an engine without any game systems running like enemy AI is essentially the same as an in-engine scripted cut scene. Minus maybe some optimizations they can do for the cut-scene.
Not necessarily. Something being rendered in-engine can be given more time to render each frame to increase quality, and then be sped up later. A prime example is Halo Reach.

In-engine;


Real-time on X360;



It's close, but definitely not the same quality.
 
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Handy Fake

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That's exactly what I'm describing?

UC4 doesn't pre-render it's cutscenes; they run in real time in-engine.

The fidelity boost is due to not actually running game systems, and potentially being able to further optimize the scene (they don't need to load unnecessary data so can potentially increase fidelity.)
Aye, that's it.
It's still "in game engine" but not indicative of "gameplay".
 
Aug 28, 2019
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Not necessarily. Something being rendered in-engine can be given more time to render each frame to increase quality, and then be sped up later. A prime example is Halo Reach.

In-engine;


Real-time on X360;



It's close, but definitely not the same quality.
OK yeah I guess that makes sense.. thanks for the explanation

But I thought they specifically claimed Hellblade 2 was in engine and real time? DF is just saying they are lying?

This statement from DF makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to me either way:

However, confusion surrounds the nature of the content, which has been described as running in real-time and also as in-engine - two terms that are not exactly compatible with one another.
How in the world are real-time and in-engine terms "not exactly compatible with one another"??? lol
 
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Weik

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Going back to it, I think HellBlade 2 is a step up from what we saw today.

Did they ever confirm how that footage was exactly captured? I remember the term 'in-engine', 'real time' both thrown about at the time of reveal. But was it running on a Series X dev-kit?
Hellblade Senua's sacrifice is running on the UE4 so maybe the second game is planned for using UE5 ?
 
Aug 28, 2019
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That's embarrassing. Not even hiding their extension of PR anymore.
It's a Microsoft technology fansite..

That's like complaining that Push Square focuses on playstation stuff...



If MS had a great 3rd party demo and Push Square made the same tweet you guys would be laughing at how funny it is and how MS got owned..

In fact you were all pre-emptively laughing about it before their dogshit 3rd party show lol
 
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Thirty7ven

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Yes I understand you can also increase the variety of objects in a scene and mix and match them to create the appearance of uniqueness.

Another thing that doesn't require 100 times the I/O speed.... and only really gets you so far since what we saw today was about the immense details of a single model on screen.
Have it your way man. You did it, you found the bottleneck.
 

Delpij

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Every time I see this discussion, it reminds me of the striking difference between FFX gameplay and FFX cutscenes.
Or Blur's Halo 2 Anniversary pre-rendered cutscenes.

I think it's safe to assume that Hellblade's gameplay will not be on par with what's been shown.
 

DeepEnigma

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It's a Microsoft technology fansite..

That's like complaining that Push Square focuses on playstation stuff...



If MS had a great 3rd party demo and Push Square made the same tweet you guys would be laughing at how funny it is and how MS got owned..
Of course it is, but you don't need to sound like a child. You can still do your thing, without coming off as forum trolls like us. 😝

And don't lump me with "you guys" sweeping shit. I would laugh just the same at grown men and their toy fanaticism.
 

Sinthor

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I guess with MSFT it really is about ecosystem isn't it? If you get: Xbone S, Xbone X, Lockhart, XsX, PC/laptop/tablet Windows they continue to make money even if Sony PlayStation has more consoles sold?! Im starting to realize certain things as I think through this..
I think you're dead on with this but the word is PLATFORM first. THEN ecosystem. If you notice, the trailers I've seen so for for the new Xbox even just say they are for "Xbox." Microsoft's vision appears to be to have the games run on ALL their hardware as a platform. A game may have more features or be shinier when running on Series X as opposed to Xbox One, but it will still run. That way they are not worrying about how many Series X they sell compared to the PS5...ALL their hardware will count as the same game sold. Plus they can say 'you can run our games anywhere' and not be tied down to 'you have to buy our newest box.' That at least is what they appear to be going for, IMHO.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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Of course it is, but you don't need to sound like a child. You can still do your thing, without coming off as forum trolls like us. 😝

And don't lump me with "you guys" sweeping shit. I would laugh just the same at grown men and their toy fanaticism.
But since when were they "hiding" anything like you implied?

But duly noted.. not trying to lump you in.... I also laugh at fanboyism on both sides.. but WindowsCentral's gaming area is Xbox focused, it's right in the title of that area. The tweet is kind of cringe I agree.
 
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icerock

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Inconclusive at the moment. DF were also unsure (but leaning more towards it being in-engine because of the frame-rate):

Maybe just too early to tell but MS' July event is not so far away.
No, they only said "in-engine". I remeber that also DF had a video about that Hellblade 2 video and they said, that it was strange, because you couldn´t see LOD transitions. Maybe that "in-engine" wasn´t UE4, but UE5? I wouldn´t be surprised if major UE engine user like some big publishers will get their hands on new UE tech early.
I knew there were some muddy details around that trailer, they conflated the term 'in-engine' and 'real-time' which seemed to confuse DF too.

I'm more interested in knowing, how that cinematic was captured. Was it running on a PC, or Series X dev kit? The same question was posed to one of the Epic engineers, and they said the entire footage was captured through a signal from PS5 dev-kit HDMI port. We don't know the same details for HellBlade 2. Hopefully MS show more in July, because if they can achieve gameplay with same visual quality, the internet will go crazy.
 

DeepEnigma

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But since when were they "hiding" anything like you implied?
They had a stark change over the last few years in style is what I meant. Now it's full on derp shit. It's almost like a switch was flicked on a handful of sites at the same time.

Yes, still fans, but less sounding like twittards in the process. Anywho, going to move on from this, in this specific thread.
 
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chilichote

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OK yeah I guess that makes sense.. thanks for the explanation

But I thought they specifically claimed Hellblade 2 was in engine and real time? DF is just saying they are lying?

This statement from DF makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to me either way:



How in the world are real-time and in-engine terms "not exactly compatible with one another"??? lol
In Engine = what the Engine is capable of

Real time = what the hardware is capable of^^
 

BGs

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Going back to it, I think HellBlade 2 is a step up from what we saw today.

Did they ever confirm how that footage was exactly captured? I remember the term 'in-engine', 'real time' both thrown about at the time of reveal. But was it running on a Series X dev-kit?
Well, what you have seen today is UE5. Hellblade 2 is UE4 (currently). You may like the character and his work more or less, but you are comparing UE4 with UE5. Perhaps they have not been very successful teaching a character with cartoon features. But the logical thing is to think that what was created in UE4 would work just as well or even better in UE5.

It doesn't matter either. I mean that now a point has come where if you don't show something photorealistic it is because you don't want to or because you don't have the necessary financial resources for it.

I can't even imagine what a game like Horizon Zero Dawn 2 will look on PS5.
Seeing what Naughty Dog has done with PS4, I would not try to think what Sony can do with PS5. I could blow your head off. But what if you try to imagine it in VR?
 
Aug 28, 2019
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In Engine = what the Engine is capable of

Real time = what the hardware is capable of^^
Yeah I understand what the terms mean... I'm not so sure DF does though, as there is nothing incompatible with those terms.

Every game runs in-engine and in real time as you play it.. how in the world are those terms not compatible? lol

And if MS used those terms, they are claiming the rendering was done in real time in their engine. So DF seems to be calling them out there as liars I guess.
 

Kazekage1981

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I think you're dead on with this but the word is PLATFORM first. THEN ecosystem. If you notice, the trailers I've seen so for for the new Xbox even just say they are for "Xbox." Microsoft's vision appears to be to have the games run on ALL their hardware as a platform. A game may have more features or be shinier when running on Series X as opposed to Xbox One, but it will still run. That way they are not worrying about how many Series X they sell compared to the PS5...ALL their hardware will count as the same game sold. Plus they can say 'you can run our games anywhere' and not be tied down to 'you have to buy our newest box.' That at least is what they appear to be going for, IMHO.
Yes on top of that gamepass and gamestreaming. Could you play 4K forza horizon through game streaming on Xbone S, cause it does display 4k, versus Forza Horizon game disk that runs natively on Xbone S at 1080p?
 
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TTOOLL

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Going back to it, I think HellBlade 2 is a step up from what we saw today.

Did they ever confirm how that footage was exactly captured? I remember the term 'in-engine', 'real time' both thrown about at the time of reveal. But was it running on a Series X dev-kit?

C'mon dude...I'll answer as if you aren't trolling. What we saw today is better looking and playable. We can't play this Hellblade 2 TRAILER.