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[DaGwaphics]

So what's more taxing 4k 60 full ray tracing with decent visuals or 1080p 30 path traced with minecraft visuals. Genuine question....

There's a big difference between full ray tracing (full path tracing) and hybrid methods. Sony hasn't shown anything path traced. You aren't hitting 4k/60 path traced on a 10tf part, unless, of course you are playing pong.

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

I'll take that as a no, you don't understand.

I'll give you a hint. 2160p60 is around 8 times more work than 1080p30.

You can take it as you want it's not difficult to know roughly how much more taxing it is.

But it's you avoiding the question again and answering a question with a question.

'So what's more taxing 4k 60 full ray tracing with decent visuals or 1080p 30 path traced with minecraft visuals. Genuine question?....'

Because if PS5 has a game going for 4k 60 good visuals full RT that's pretty damn impressive no?

How much more taxing is path tracing?

 

[SatansReverence]

Is this a joke?. This thread has been the 'unofficial Sony Thread' for months now, no wonder there hasnt been much warring. Just a reminder, its not the Sony thread, its the nextg gen thread, and anyone can discuss.

They've had near 1000 pages of safe space circlejerking, it'll take time to adjust.

 

[SatansReverence]

How much more taxing is path tracing?

now you're being deliberately obtuse.

Path tracing is many orders of magnitude more taxing than any sort of rasterized graphics.

Minecraft requires anywhere between 4 to 8 times the power to render in path tracing than a normal game with ray traced effects.

 

[PaintTinJr]

There's a big difference between full ray tracing (full path tracing) and hybrid methods. Sony hasn't shown anything path traced. You aren't hitting 4k/60 path traced on a 10tf part, unless, of course you are playing pong.

What if a Minecraft clone was using the UE5 demo tech on a PS5 and did 4K60 with dynamic GI that was superior by perception but not fully path traced - assuming the XsX can't use nanite and lumen quite at PS5 level?

Is the end result what is important or the method and resources used?

As in, would that be as impressive, or more impressive, in your opinion?
Rachet on PS5 is probably a hybrid of REYES and foreground RT

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

There's a big difference between full ray tracing (full path tracing) and hybrid methods. Sony hasn't shown anything path traced. You aren't hitting 4k/60 path traced on a 10tf part, unless, of course you are playing pong.

I'm only showing what quantum error said they are going for.

We have seen minecraft at 1080p 30. But what we have seen so far with RT at 4k60 like in GT7 is still impressive.

How much more impressive could it be at 1080p 30.

 

[Nikana]

Please Define "Things" for me ? I am sure the XSX can load some "Things" , so can the PS4 . Can it stream 8k Textures at 9Gb/s ... No it can't

What do you mean define things...it can load whatever it wants. So yeah it can load your tetxures.

First you talked about loading assets in the fly and claimed the series X can't do it and would "need to take a taxi" but that's simply not true.

Loading data into ram is faster on ps5. But you will still saturate the pools on both machines within seconds. And the image still has to be processed by the GPU. The swapping of textures is important in creating more lively images with unique aspects. But this notion that 5.5 vs 9 is going to create this massive difference is silly.

This scenario you make up doesn't even have any relevance to how games are created. Again, show me a game where it needs to fetch assets so quickly that 5.5 gigs a second isn't quick enough?

Even if the game exsisted, it simply require further optimization on the part of the Xbox version.

The innovation of storage is the fact that both machines have fast SSDs not that one has a faster SSD than the other.

 

[Stuart360]

now you're being deliberately obtuse.

Path tracing is many orders of magnitude more taxing than any sort of rasterized graphics.

Minecraft requires anywhere between 4 to 8 times the power to render in path tracing that a normal game with ray traced effects.

Its funny how many people look down on the Minecradt ray tracing, and say stuff like 'lolz 1080p 30fps. (when it was actually 1080p 30-60fps), without realizing that Minecraft RTX is the only game to use 100% path tracing, even Quake 2 RTX doesnt, and is actually the hardest ray traced game so far to run.
Clueless.

 

[Nikana]

No as explained above it means the data doesn’t need to sit and wait to be used taking up GPU resources.

And it doesn't on series X either.

 

[bitbydeath]

And it doesn't on series X either.

Yes but it can’t push as much because it’s slower which is why it holds onto data for longer and takes longer to load.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Its funny how many people look down on the Minecradt ray tracing, and say stuff like 'lolz 1080p 30fps. (when it was actually 1080p 30-60fps), without realizing that Minecraft RTX is the only game to use 100% path tracing, even Quake 2 RTX doesnt, and is actually the hardest ray traced game so far to run.
Clueless.

I agree - although I'm not sure it ran on XsX - but to paraphrase Carmack over a decade ago when talking about Intel Larabee and future tech, he said you can hype and talk up hardware, but you have to show a win to justify those choices. Comparing software RT of UE5 demo and Minecraft RT, which one shows the bigger win, in your opinion?

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

They've had near 1000 pages of safe space circlejerking, it'll take time to adjust.

And now theres simplistic claims being thrown around like 12 >10 forgetting the other meaningful benefits. Its getting a bit tiresome...

 

[Nikana]

Yes but it can’t push as much because it’s slower which is why it holds onto data for longer and takes longer to load.

Being slower doesn't mean it holds onto data longer.

There's no debate the ps5 SSD is faster but we are talking about machines with 12-14 gigs of usable RAM and a 5.5 GBS vs a 9 GBS SSD. The difference is extremely small.

 

[Stuart360]

I agree - although I'm not sure it ran on XsX - but to paraphrase Carmack over a decade ago when talking about Intel Larabee and future tech, he said you can hype and talk up hardware, but you have to show a win to justify those choices. Comparing software RT of UE5 demo and Minecraft RT, which one shows the bigger win, in your opinion?

Well i'm not a big supporter of ray tracing to be honest (at the moment, tech just isnt powerful enough yet imo), and in most ray traced games so far, i wouldnt even know the games were using ray tracing if didnt know beforehand. In fact, and i said this way before the XSX Minecraft demo, the Digital Foundry Minecraft RTX vids are the only ray tracing vids so far that have actually impressed me.

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

now you're being deliberately obtuse.

Path tracing is many orders of magnitude more taxing than any sort of rasterized graphics.

Minecraft requires anywhere between 4 to 8 times the power to render in path tracing that a normal game with ray traced effects.

So how would the PS5 do then at 1080p with the minecraft... it's not going to be 40% worse than xbox in RT that's seems an xbox fans pipedream. As said faster clocks should benefit it somewhat.

The extra horsepower freed from being at 1080p should help the ps5 run it in a similar fashion, maybe a few less frames or slightly less res than xbox but whoknows.

I bet side by side little to no noticeable difference.

 

[SatansReverence]

And now theres simplistic claims being thrown around like 12 >10 forgetting the other meaningful benefits. Its getting a bit tiresome...

I didn't forget anything, I pointed out that most of those optimisations exist to offset the non linear performance gains of high clock speeds.

I also pointed out that it isn't hard to fully utilise a GPU as anyone who has used a PC any time in the last 10 years would know.

 

[bitbydeath]

Being slower doesn't mean it holds onto data longer.

There's no debate the ps5 SSD is faster but we are talking about machines with 12-14 gigs of usable RAM and a 5.5 GBS vs a 9 GBS SSD. The difference is extremely small.

Yes it does. The data has to be loaded into RAM first which can only be moved so quickly based on SSD and IO speeds.

PS5 as we know holds onto the next second at any one time.

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

Its hilarious seeing people claim this knowing how easy it is to keep a gpu at 100% utilisation.

This is not what real people like cerny have said. Code is almost never fully utilising the CPU/GPU.

Its easy to get this info and I'm going to bed but im sure someone will get it. Before I do tommorow.......NX gamer I remember has mentioned it too in his ps5 spec video and probably a load of other places too.

Think you might want to rethink that statement....

 

[sonomamashine]

Is this a joke?. This thread has been the 'unofficial Sony Thread' for months now, no wonder there hasnt been much warring. Just a reminder, its not the Sony thread, its the nextg gen thread, and anyone can discuss.

Lol the fact that you have to remind him that is mind boggling.

 

[Nikana]

Yes it does. The data has to be loaded into RAM first which can only be moved so quickly based on SSD and IO speeds.

PS5 as we know holds onto the next second at any one time.

The SSD being slower does not automatically mean its slower to remove data. That would depends on things the entire I/O architecture.

your slide doesn't prove that the XSX holds onto data longer. We dont know how VA works.

 

[Handy Fake]

*sets homepage to https://www.neogaf.com/bans/ *
*goes to bed*

 

[bitbydeath]

The SSD being slower does not automatically mean its slower to remove data. That would depends on things the entire I/O architecture.

your slide doesn't prove that the XSX holds onto data longer. We dont know how VA works.

Best to just wait two weeks and see if you can see any large differences or not.

 

[MasterCornholio]

*sets homepage to https://www.neogaf.com/bans/ *
*goes to bed*

 

[Nikana]

Best to just wait two weeks and see if you can see any large differences or not.

Has nothing to do with waiting. You are claiming things as facts that are not.

Started out as things have to be "preloaded." Which is not true. (which you have since admitted defeat.)

And now you are trying to claim that the SSD being slower in the XSX means that it holds onto data longer which is not a function solely of the SSD.

This is why this thread is on fire half the time.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Or it's OK to point out how ridiculous it was that Sweeney said there wasn't any deal. You must understand how this looks now? Beside the fact that XSX is able to run UE5 games and demo's.

The same applies for you looking a war where is not.

Btw I never said UE5 demo cannot run in XSX neither Sweeney.

 

[bitbydeath]

Has nothing to do with waiting. You are claiming things as facts that are not.

Started out as things have to be "preloaded." Which is not true. (which you have since admitted defeat.)

And now you are trying to claim that the SSD being slower in the XSX means that it holds onto data longer which is not a function solely of the SSD.

This is why this thread is on fire half the time.

How is it not true? Faster speeds mean exactly that.

 

[Metroiddarks]

So two months ago Epic started this campaign talking about their new engine and talking about the great collaboration they have with Sony over the last couple of years in terms of developing technology to make Sony invest 250 million later, that's the whole plan... Instead of choosing MS that has more money to invest, they went with Sony, right? that's how it works?

Actually Sony as company wait months so in this way they buy a portion even smaller if they do it before all this just for create a demo for PS5.

Those bastards.

 

[Nikana]

How is it not true? Faster speeds mean exactly that.

 

[Redlight]

I don't know what you try to do there. But for most of part that's not related to PS5 to outperform XSX. Some are speculation and this thread is here for that. Some facts (10Gb for VRAM said by Microsoft themselves, UE5 told by Sweeney that the UE5 will turn on XSX but not at the scale that it was showed due to PS5 optimisation and EPIC and Sony coworking since 3 years)
Can you provide links with statements please

Hang on, you originally said...

Nobody say PS5 to outperform XSX.

Which isn't quite accurate, so I gave a list of quotes from this thread where people have suggested exactly that. I'm not going to provide links to each quote because it's not about particular members and people are entitled to their own ideas/speculations. It hasn't, however, been as reasoned and even-handed as you seem to think.

The quotes are real. If you doubt my list you can simply search for any of them.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Both sides are just stupid just repeat concepts don't even understand.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

I keep beating this drum over and over again. When you look at the Series X, it stands as a pretty traditional piece of hardware. I'm not saying this as a dis, Microsoft wants you in their ecosystem whether its, Series X, Lockheart, PC, or some streaming on a tablet. Looking at the Sony side of the equation, what is the best way for them to separate themselves from Microsoft, or even Nintendo? Virtual Reality. Simple as that. There's absolutely no doubt they have a PSVR2 headset waiting in the wings. When you look at the hardware, you see things like the insane SSD and I/O, along with other things like SmartShift. Not to mention they've not yet gone into more bespoke aspects like their coherency engine. I guarantee there's tweaks in there entirely related to VR performance. I mean the PS5 could have hardware built in that originally was inside the breakout box for the first PSVR. Could explain why it's so large, or it could be simply awesome cooling. We'll see.

 

[Redlight]

...I mean the PS5 could have hardware built in that originally was inside the breakout box for the first PSVR. Could explain why it's so large, or it could be simply awesome cooling. We'll see.

VR is still pretty niche though. Adding that hardware to every PS5 would inflate the cost in the same way that adding Kinect to every Xbox one did.

 

[roops67]

XSX is all most 2tf more powerful at sustained performance, while also being smaller. PS5 is the weaker platform on top of having variable clocks, and larger in size. Evidence and facts do not support your comments. Phil is going all out stating XSX is more powerful. Notice Sony isn't saying anything of the sort.

I get it. Sonys own 1st party games from the E3 event failed to wow anybody, but somehow a 3rd party engine will surpass what sonys world class 1st party studios can accomplish on the PS5. I didn't know all of sony 1st party studios are going to use UE5. Can you provide a link to this? I didn't think so.

On the other hand, majority of MS 1st party are using the UE5 engine on top of having the more powerful hardware to work with.

You're either 13 or mentally ill to be that much of a blind childish fanboy

 

[Hawking Radiation]

tower of power ... dear god, do they have teenagers coming up with these?

I still can't believe this was posted by Xbox twitter channel. Its cringeworthy as fuck.

You don't see posts like these from Sony.

They let the content do the talking for them.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

VR is still pretty niche though. Adding that hardware to every PS5 would inflate the cost in the same way that adding Kinect to every Xbox one did.

True, it's still niche, but depending on the next PSVR, that could change.

 

[Lethal01]

Its funny how many people look down on the Minecradt ray tracing, and say stuff like 'lolz 1080p 30fps. (when it was actually 1080p 30-60fps), without realizing that Minecraft RTX is the only game to use 100% path tracing, even Quake 2 RTX doesnt, and is actually the hardest ray traced game so far to run.
Clueless.

It's funny that this topic started because someone was pointing out how silly it is to say that the Unreal Engine isn't impressive because it ran at 1440p 30fps.

 

[Vroadstar]

*sets homepage to https://www.neogaf.com/bans/ *
*goes to bed*

Oh boy, is see that ban page growing with the kind of floodgate this thread opened

 

[Stuart360]

It's funny that this topic started because someone was pointing out how silly it is to say that the Unreal Engine isn't impressive because it ran at 1440p 30fps.

Cool but what has that got to do with what i said?. Nice tag you got there by the way buddy.

 

[GRIEVEZ]

It's just a reality.
Were you thinking the PS5 was going to have a 36cu GPU?
I bet London to a brick you did not believe the PS5 would have the same amount of Cu's as the Pro did prior to reveal.
It is what it is.
You can think differently, but we are here with a variable speed PS5 APU.

We also didnt expect 2Ghz... and t ended up 2.2Ghz and a blazing fast SSD. As well as other nifty additions.
So cant really say im disappointed

XSX is all most 2tf more powerful at sustained performance, while also being smaller. PS5 is the weaker platform on top of having variable clocks, and larger in size. Evidence and facts do not support your comments. Phil is going all out stating XSX is more powerful. Notice Sony isn't saying anything of the sort.

There's nothing to be gained, if you are market leader and are confident in your product. Also weaker, remains to be seen.

On paper yes, but im much more interested in real world examples - which we've havn't seen much yet

(well... we've seen one side. Much impressed by Horizon Forbidden West and Demon Souls, in terms of graphics)

Hopefully Msft will bring their A-Game upcoming event (and running on a actual XSX)

Being slower doesn't mean it holds onto data longer.

There's no debate the ps5 SSD is faster but we are talking about machines with 12-14 gigs of usable RAM and a 5.5 GBS vs a 9 GBS SSD. The difference is extremely small.

The 9GB/s doesnt account Oodle texture

Is this a joke?. This thread has been the 'unofficial Sony Thread' for months now, no wonder there hasnt been much warring. Just a reminder, its not the Sony thread, its the nextg gen thread, and anyone can discuss.

Any one can discuss. But it seems more like, some people arent interested in keeping it civil. There really is no need to be rude. Even if someone doesn't "support your team".

There's a big difference between full ray tracing (full path tracing) and hybrid methods. Sony hasn't shown anything path traced. You aren't hitting 4k/60 path traced on a 10tf part, unless, of course you are playing pong.

While its impressive, its fully path traced. Geometry really cant be any simpler than that... So I dont think we'll see any other games being fully path traced, on either side.

 

[Dabaus]

Looks like Leyou chose their bidder. I wonder if Sony knows they couldn’t close the deal and that’s why we got the epic announcement today? Seems like it’d be weird timing to have both announced so soon right?

 

[Lethal01]

Cool but what has that got to do with what i said?. Nice tag you got there by the way buddy.

Thanks, got it from mentioning that I thought Microsoft made a bad decision, blasphemy I know.
Anyway, it has to do with what you said because you are pointing out that there is more to it that resolution and framerate when it was only brought up to point out that there was more to the unreal demo than resolution and framerate.

 

[Stuart360]

Thanks, got it from mentioning that I thought Microsoft made a bad decision, blasphemy I know.
Anyway, it has to do with what you said because you are pointing out that there is more to it that resolution and framerate when it was only brought up to point out that there was more to the unreal demo than resolution and framerate.

I never mentioned the UE5 demo, and i have praised that demo numerous times on here. Also i'd be willing to bet anything that Minecraft RTX is harder for the next gen consoles to run than the UE5 demo.

 

[Lethal01]

I never mentioned the UE5 demo, and i have praised that demo numerous times on here. Also i'd be willing to bet anything that Minecraft RTX is harder for the next gen consoles to run than the UE5 demo.

Okay? The point is that it's funny that it's come full circle with the the statement that was made just earlier today as something that would be silly to say because it simplifies everything to framerate and resolution, now having someone say it as fact with someone on the other-side pointing out oh silly it is.

 

[Neo_game]

There's a big difference between full ray tracing (full path tracing) and hybrid methods. Sony hasn't shown anything path traced. You aren't hitting 4k/60 path traced on a 10tf part, unless, of course you are playing pong.

Cyberpunk 2077 demo was running at 1080P DLSS 2.0 on RTX 2080ti . It is pretty much given that console's RT settings will be set to low.

 

[Stuart360]

Okay? The point is that it's funny that it's come full circle with the the statement that was made just earlier today as something that would be silly to say because it simplifies everything to framerate and resolution, now having someone say it as fact with someone on the other-side pointing out oh silly it is.

Fine but i didnt say anything about the UE5 demo, i dont even know what post you mean. I rarely come in here anymore.

 

[Bryank75]

 

[Sinthor]

XSX is all most 2tf more powerful at sustained performance, while also being smaller. PS5 is the weaker platform on top of having variable clocks, and larger in size. Evidence and facts do not support your comments. Phil is going all out stating XSX is more powerful. Notice Sony isn't saying anything of the sort.

I get it. Sonys own 1st party games from the E3 event failed to wow anybody, but somehow a 3rd party engine will surpass what sonys world class 1st party studios can accomplish on the PS5. I didn't know all of sony 1st party studios are going to use UE5. Can you provide a link to this? I didn't think so.

On the other hand, majority of MS 1st party are using the UE5 engine on top of having the more powerful hardware to work with.

Dude, I know you're feeling very defensive about Microsoft and it's cool, but seriously...I would temper my expectations if I were you. People claiming that XSX will have huge framerate advantages, etc. are just clowning you. THIS generation the PS4 was about 40% more powerful in the GPU and yes there were some resolution differences, but seriously..you needed Digital Foundry to blow screenshots up by 300x or whatever to even tell the marginal difference. Nobody with an Xbox one felt like their box was just too underpowered. So relax, it will be ok! But those trying to clown you that there will be some big advantage when the advantage in raw numbers is FAR less than the difference was between PS4 and XB1...are doing just that. Don't be fooled and buy into it! You will be very disappointed if you do.

So yes, the XSX is the most powerful box. By an even smaller margin than the PS4 had over the XB1. Not a big deal.

You think the first party games didn't wow anybody? Ok........ Hey your opinion is as valid as anyone else's. In my opinion we haven't seen anything from MS that is as impressive as R&C, Spiderman 2 or the new Horizon..but you know what...I think there WILL be. I'm betting the new Halo will look "next gen." And you know what? That doesn't threaten me at all. It's all GOOD. In fact, I'm looking forward to seeing more next gen stuff from BOTH companies because either way it will show us what we can basically expect to see from both platforms.

I would be careful about harshing on UE5 if I were you as well. If it sucks....what does that mean for the claims of things like Hellblade 2 being moved to UE5? If is IS great...what exactly do you think a $250 million dollar investment bought?

Bottom line relax. You're (obviously) getting an XSX and you will be happy with it. I think there might even be a few games that have an extra fps or so or maybe run at a little higher resolution for the XSX. That's good. But you're going to have to accept as well that things like the UE5 demo showed that the PS5 will likely have a few games using 8k assets streamed in realtime that likewise won't be quite the same on the XSX. The two boxes are pretty much dead-ass even (IMHO) but have some differences in a few areas that it will be interesting to see how it plays out, or if we can tell anything at all. Until we have a bunch of stuff we can look at and see, for example the new Assassins Creed and other games running on each box side by side as it were, we cannot know how this will work out. But again, even by those numbers, the differences look on paper like they will be pretty minimal.

So let's see. It's fun to speculate and my apologies if I've got you pegged wrong on this. Just seems like you're pretty spun up on the topic and I want to hopefully help you not be very disappointed when the realities start showing about these new consoles. Either one you get, you're gonna have great games and the tech is really cool. So it will be fine either way. Enjoy the ride!

 

[Sinthor]

XSX has a nearly a 2TF power advantage. Significantly more CU's, that according to devs, gives XSX about a 40% advantage in Ray Tracing capabilities.

Nobody is saying the XSX is significantly more powerful. Just stating a fact. It is more powerful and resolutions,framerates,ray tracing should be better on XSX. I think most would prefer those advantages over a 1-2 second faster loading time.

Serious question, is there any info on the ray tracing info you talked about? I'd like to read if I missed something there. As far as I know the raw performance terraflops advantage was anywhere from 15-20% depending on who's talking and that performance included ray tracing as far as I was aware also. It does make sense that the additional CU's would give some advantage there as well all else being equal. That's where the speed difference and other factors may come into play too. I am really (seriously) looking forward to Microsoft showing some titles with raytracing like we've seen from the Sony side so far, so this can start to be answered as well though.

I really didn't think we would see much in the way of RT from EITHER box this generation after I saw how hard the XSX got hit with Minecraft. Don't get me wrong, it was impressive for what they were doing, but showing that using RT limited them to 1080p and not a solid 30fps kind of cemented for me that we wouldn't see a lot of RT this generation. Then...we've seen quite a bit. Of course not using full RT on everything (we pretty much saw how that went with Minecraft after all) but to the degree it HAS been shown it has impressed me as I didn't think we'd see that at all. So will be very cool to see on something like say...the new Halo. That's the title I'm really wanting to see right now from MS. That has the potential to be a real showcase for the XSX as well.

 

[Sinthor]

I'll say it again, slowly this time so perhaps you'll all understand.

Fully. Path. Traced. Rendering.

When sony demonstrates it, let us all know.

Is the full RT implementation of Minecraft getting released?

edit- LOL, never mind. Google is my friend! I see the Minecraft RTX IS available for PC. I was curious if it was going to be released or really was a "demo" type of thing. Question answered! I'm sure that means it will be available on the Xbox platform family as well.

 

[Sinthor]

So I guess we're back to this brute forcing bullshit narrative

Dude, it's called the "speculation" thread. Fact is, we DON'T know the answers to these questions. Will the PS5's higher clocks have an impact on how it performs compared to the XSX? Some historical context but all speculation at this point. Will the split memory configuration have an impact on the XSX? Again, some historical context but speculation at this point.

I for one am very curious at this point if there will be much if ANY noticeable difference between games on both platforms. And by noticeable I mean without having to have DF blow screenshots up 1000x to see.

It's all good. Enjoy!