Shadow Hog
Member
Imagine your tears if Sakurai announced he was cutting Wolf and putting Geno in in his place.
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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
- Thread starter Snakeyes
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ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Shadow Hog
Member
Hey, he wanted to know what level of tears to expect.
Because I can't say as I expect Roy to come back, at least. I did prefer playing as him to Marth, but IIRC Marth was generally considered the better of the two regardless.
Not sure about Mewtwo; wouldn't mind him back, but didn't he play very similarly to Lucario? And I prefer Lucario's design.
Because I can't say as I expect Roy to come back, at least. I did prefer playing as him to Marth, but IIRC Marth was generally considered the better of the two regardless.
Not sure about Mewtwo; wouldn't mind him back, but didn't he play very similarly to Lucario? And I prefer Lucario's design.
:0
There's a multitude of reasons why he could add more characters.
-To promote New Nintendo games
-To add more of his personal favorite characters after the game is complete
-to add other suprise characters to keep interest in the game high
-would be incredibly profitable to do so. It would be crazy NOT to
They share a grand total of zero moves. (Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere look similar, but they function differently.)
Red Arremer
Member
Didn't both also have a command grab and a counter move? It's been a long time since I played Melee.
Also, I guess they're both floaty and have similar graphical effects.
Green Mamba
Member
Mewtwo doesn't have a command grab nor a counter move. He has a 'reflector' that actually just deflects projectiles and flips people around and a disabling move. They really don't play similar to one another at all.
astarisborn94
Member
Regarding Victini,
I know its chances are zilch, but does anyone else think that it may have made a better mascot than Zoroark? Looking at the design reminds me a lot of Gen 5, which made me somewhat surprised when the overall mascot turned out to be Zoroark. I feel as had it been promoted as a mascot and not just another Mew-like Pokémon, it would have been considerably more popular.
Also surprised that not more people commented on online stuff aside from character DLC (which will sadly probably never happen).
I know its chances are zilch, but does anyone else think that it may have made a better mascot than Zoroark? Looking at the design reminds me a lot of Gen 5, which made me somewhat surprised when the overall mascot turned out to be Zoroark. I feel as had it been promoted as a mascot and not just another Mew-like Pokémon, it would have been considerably more popular.
Also surprised that not more people commented on online stuff aside from character DLC (which will sadly probably never happen).
This is more of what I want to see, but the reason why I would want to see DLC characters now is because it's possible that this may be Sakurai's last game so I want him to add as many newcomers that are worthy of a spot as possibe.Snakey said:
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Honestly Mewtwo struck me more as a "lost" Earthbound character than a Pokemon.
Sakurai's a furry, he wouldn't do that P:
Though I'd definitely push Nuke the World button if that happens
Considering how popular Victini is compared to Zoroark, I wouldn't be surprised.
Sakurai's a furry, he wouldn't do that P:
Though I'd definitely push Nuke the World button if that happens
Considering how popular Victini is compared to Zoroark, I wouldn't be surprised.
I think Victini would have made a much better generation mascot than Lucario. However, I think if Meloetta or Genesect were the first Pokemon unveiled for Generation 5 they could have worked as mascots too.
I think part of the reason why Zoroark failed was because it was seen as too much of a retread of Lucario. Heck, it even ended up that Lucario got more promotion at the end of Generation 5 than Zoroark did.
This is how I usually classify the "main" Pokémon of any given generation. There are typically a handful of mascot types.
A. Main promotional mascots
1 - Pikachu
2 - Pichu
3 - Plusle & Minun
4 - Lucario
5 - Zoroark
B. Starters and their evolutions
C. Cover art legendaries/"version mascots"
D. Cute floating legendaries
1 - Mew
2 - Celebi
3 - Jirachi
4 - Manaphy
5 - Victini
E. End-of-the-Pokédex "bad ass" legendaries (this seems to occur every other generation)
1 - Mewtwo
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3 - Deoxys
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5 - Genesect
F. Movie stars (there's often overlap with the previous categories)
A. Main promotional mascots
1 - Pikachu
2 - Pichu
3 - Plusle & Minun
4 - Lucario
5 - Zoroark
B. Starters and their evolutions
C. Cover art legendaries/"version mascots"
D. Cute floating legendaries
1 - Mew
2 - Celebi
3 - Jirachi
4 - Manaphy
5 - Victini
E. End-of-the-Pokédex "bad ass" legendaries (this seems to occur every other generation)
1 - Mewtwo
-
3 - Deoxys
-
5 - Genesect
F. Movie stars (there's often overlap with the previous categories)
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
It's not a "retread" of Lucario that killed it as much as it is failed as a Pokemon in itself.
Illusion is pretty useless (lol team preview) vs. Lucario's abilities (and has Justified for switch in). Its move pool leaves nothing to be desired vs. Lucairo's varied pool. Its typing and stats aren't really that good vs. really good offensive Lucario. In the movie it's Zorua that's featured more than Zoroark vs. Lucario being a central character. Also they have that "Lucario looks like a superhero" motif going with it.
Illusion is pretty useless (lol team preview) vs. Lucario's abilities (and has Justified for switch in). Its move pool leaves nothing to be desired vs. Lucairo's varied pool. Its typing and stats aren't really that good vs. really good offensive Lucario. In the movie it's Zorua that's featured more than Zoroark vs. Lucario being a central character. Also they have that "Lucario looks like a superhero" motif going with it.
I wish I played this series while growing up. I would love to see some proper Advance Wars character. Cmon Intelligent Systems don't forgot this series like i did. I'd take Sami or Andy preferably. With a redesign these characters could look pretty cool. I can see both Andy or Sami becoming instant favorites. And Instead of a land master they could use a real tank.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I wish I played this series while growing up. I would love to see some proper Advance Wars character. Cmon Intelligent Systems don't forgot this series like i did. I'd take Sami or Andy preferably. With a redesign these characters could look pretty cool. I can see both Andy or Sami becoming instant favorites. And Instead of a land master they could use a real tank.
I would love to play those games. Yeah, I never had any chance to give it a try.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I want to play as a magnificent deer in Smash 4.
I want to play as Xerneas.
Oh god.
So beautifullll~
I want to play as Xerneas.
Oh god.
So beautifullll~
Luckily I got to play FE through a cousin of mines after Melee was released. It still would be cool to play as an AW character through Smash. The next best thing, probably even better lol.
Imo it looks weird. I'm def. going with the flying squirrel, Y.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
That usually has everything to do with the developer being greedy and just postponing pre-made content as DLC and nothing to do with physical limitations of DLC. We still have no idea how in the long-run Nintendo will handle DLC so it could (but probably won't) be something more substantial than just cut characters from previous games.
That being said I'd be far less upset over anybody cut from Brawl if I knew that they would eventually come back as DLC. Probably a bit annoyed, but if it means more new characters than sure, I'll bite the bullet if by a year's time everybody who's ever been in the Smash series is playable in SSB4.
Yeah, me to. I would be far less upset about cuts if I knew they were eventually going to come back via DLC. As I said before, I would even pay for Dr. Mario and Pichu. This is going to be the last Smash Bros. I will ever buy (I have much less interest in games than I used to), so I would like the entire previous Smash Bros. cast back for this installment. At the very least I would want everyone from Brawl plus Mewtwo and Roy.
On a sidenote, is anyone else looking forward to the 3DS version more than the Wii U version?
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I was totally apathetic about the 3DS version until I got a 3DSXL with Kid Icarus and Mario 3DLand a couple months ago. Those games alone have convinced me that unless SSB4 on the 3DS is just a port and not its own thing that portable Smash is going to be tits.
I guess I'm still more excited about the Wii U version, but 3DS is nothing to scoff at if Uprising is any indicator of what Sakurai can get out of the system.
I guess I'm still more excited about the Wii U version, but 3DS is nothing to scoff at if Uprising is any indicator of what Sakurai can get out of the system.
I know you said that character DLC (that is not on-disc) is feasible, however, would it be just as feasible for the 3DS?
I mean if the 3DS has enough space to store entire 3DS games, it should be able to have enough space for character DLC.
Nintendo would be foolish not to implement some sort of DLC for Smash 4. I mean if they have done it even for Mario platformers, I would think even Smash Bros. would have it. The only thing I am doubting pertaining to DLC is characters.
However, if DLC for characters does show up, it will be for characters that Sakurai intended to put in the game, but couldn't due to time constraints. For example, if the Wii had DLC capabilities on par with the 3DS/Wii U, that would mean Brawl's DLC characters would have been Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, Dixie Kong, Toon Zelda, and Plusle & Minun.
However, I could just as easily see Sakurai thinking DLC is "unfair" since people who have more money or willing to shell out more money for more content would have a more complete game than others.
Shadow Hog
Member
Xerneas and Ferb
Green Mamba
Member
Concerning DLC I think it's worth noting that the console version of Tekken Tag Tournament 2 had free DLC characters (albeit most of them were clones). But that's a big outlier and not at all the norm.
TTT2's DLC is already on the disc, though.
Black-Wind
Member
You just described how echo chambers work.
People keep bouncing around the same non-sense until they have tricked themselves and others into thinking it's real.
That's the problem, when people start saying " I can say" instead of " I think / I feel".
Which is funny with your example. Wario is by far a much larger, popular and well known series than both FE and KI ... it would be easy to rationalize the addition of a 2nd Wario character if it were to happen. Where as KI is a series with exactly 3 games, 2 of which were 20 years ago. Am I saying KI wont get a character? No, just that there's more to think about than that. Look at ZSS, no one was asking for her but it makes prefect sense that Metriod would have more of a standing on the roster than just one character given how it's a long standing, well known-and-beloved Nintendo IP.
And if you want proof you should just look at LoZ. It's a series that even Nintendo states Japan doesn't care for yet the west loves.
You misunderstood me.
I'm not advocating the return of Pichu, I'm saying that people who only saw Pichu as a "convenience clone (which is funny because none of the clones were planned but all were important to their series other than Doc)" and nothing more (not a true 2nd gen mascot or an important Pokemon in general) are dead wrong. The common reason I see for people doing this is to separate Lucario from the stigma of "FoTM replaceable gen rep". Now, one thing I CAN say is that we will be getting a 6th gen Pokemon. How? IDK. They could replace PT Pokemon with the new Starters. They can bring in the Eevee evol that's gonna be in the new short. They can have an Anthro Pokemon set to star in the next movie or something.
All you have to do is think about why we get New gen Pokemon. Clearly the 1st gen has an iconic state with it's Pokemon and thats why we have so many of them. But why Pokemon Like Pichu and Lucario? Because every new generation ushers in a new generation of Pokemon Fans and that gen will be their first generation/ exposure to the series. So the question isn't if we're gonna get a 6th gen Pokemon, it's more "which Pokemon will return". If I had to guess Lucario is getting cut, Mewtwo is returning and we're getting at least one 6th gen Pokemon in some form (be it as an gen rep replacement or as a replacement to Pt's Pokemon)
I still maintain that next to Jigglypuff, Falco is the least significant "Nintendo all-star" in the series. Fox and Wolf are the only playable characters Star Fox needs, but I digress.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I'm pretty sure Ike and Lucario are as well, they along with Roy were all obviously added because they were the "newest" additions to Fire Emblem/Pokemon which are long-running series with tons of possible choices. Not that I have anything against those characters, Lucario was my favorite Brawl character, but they're not exactly Nintendo All-Stars.
Lucas was kind of the same, but since his series is so small and Mother 3 was such a stand-out title, it's not the same deal.
Lucas was kind of the same, but since his series is so small and Mother 3 was such a stand-out title, it's not the same deal.
At the very least, Lucario is the star of a motion picture and is considered the face of an entire generation of Pokémon, and Ike is the main character of two Fire Emblem games. Falco is just some random NPC sidekick with no significance whatsoever.
Green Mamba
Member
Didn't know that. Are they actually complete characters that they just held off on, or were they incomplete?
Regarding Falco, I'd say he's more important to the series than Wolf is--Star Fox at its core is about a team, and Falco represents it perfectly. Wolf's only important appearances are in the much derided (and sales floppy) Assault and Command, otherwise most know him as a memorable sub boss in Star Fox 64. Fox's teammates are a constant presence to the games, a big part of what I believe gives the games their identity. If any Star Fox character got in after Fox, I'd say a teammate would be higher priority than an occasionally seen sub boss, much like Luigi absolutely deserved to get in before Bowser even not including Luigi's easy inclusion as a clone.
Dang, its really difficult looking at these numbers:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46315295&postcount=2020
The handheld game console market is even worse in Europe.
Its pretty much only Japan that has jumped aboard the 3DS train. The Vita is an absolute flop everywhere. I think making Smash 4 for the 3DS as well was a very smart move, especially when looking at Western markets.
On the side of the Wii U, like with the 3DS, its strongest market is Japan. Its doing okay in North America, but bombing hard in Europe.
Assuming Microsoft does not do shoot themselves in the foot like Sony did when they launched the PS3 (sky-high pricepoint, difficult to develop for), they will easily be the market leader for the North American market. I don't know much about the Europen market to make a comment there, but I suspect Microsoft to make further inroads there (supposedly continental Europe favors the PS3 of the HD consoles).
Sony is in between a rock and a hard place, it really depends on what they plan to do with the PS4.
However, for Nintendo they need to guns blazing fast. I suspect the mediocre Western sales for the 3DS is the reason why we are getting Generation 6 in 2013 as opposed to 2014. New Leaf has good potential to be a high seller as well (Wild World did sell very well in the West). Smash 4 3DS I think would also be a really good seller for the 3DS. Nintendo does not have any bullets left for the Western market after those three games (aside from price cuts).
The Vita is pretty much dead though. I think Sony will pull the plug on the console by the end of 2013, or 2014 at the latest. Its possible Sony could save it by doing something crafty (like making Vitas the controllers for the PS4), however, that's assuming the PS4 does well (it will most like be in the Wii U's shadow in Japan, and X-Box's successor's shadow in the US). If it does make the Vita the PS4's main controller, I think the Vita would be able to carve a niche out for itself.
As for the 3DS, it definitely won't be pulling DS numbers (especially in the West). The handheld video game console market has really contracted.
For 2013, the only titles Nintendo has lined up for the 3DS in the West are FE13, Luigi's Mansion 2, Animal Crossing: New Leaf, and Pokemong X/Y. There is probably going to be at least one more major title released as well. However, I could easily see it being FE13 for Q1, Luigi's Mansion 2 for Q2 (the boxart has already been leaked), Animal Crossing: New Leaf for Q3, and Pokemon X/Y for Q4. New Leaf is possible as a Q2 title as well though.
The Wii U situation is perhaps worse, because unlike the 3DS, it does not even have a decent library built up. There are no first-party titles being published for Q1. Nintendo better have a very big show at E3 2013 for the Wii U.
There is a lot of expectations being placed upon Sakurai. Each Smash Bros. game thus far has been a much greater escalation in terms of scale, ambition, and hype than the last. In terms of characters, he has very few bullets left. I think Sakurai has some very big plans for Smash 4, and that the scale in terms of what he has planned for the gameplay is going to get far more people hyped than the likely revealing of those last few hype worthy characters.
I think the AR cards that Sakurai did for Kid Icarus Uprising are going to be expanded upon for Smash 4. It may even be expanded to figurines.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46315295&postcount=2020
The handheld game console market is even worse in Europe.
Its pretty much only Japan that has jumped aboard the 3DS train. The Vita is an absolute flop everywhere. I think making Smash 4 for the 3DS as well was a very smart move, especially when looking at Western markets.
On the side of the Wii U, like with the 3DS, its strongest market is Japan. Its doing okay in North America, but bombing hard in Europe.
Assuming Microsoft does not do shoot themselves in the foot like Sony did when they launched the PS3 (sky-high pricepoint, difficult to develop for), they will easily be the market leader for the North American market. I don't know much about the Europen market to make a comment there, but I suspect Microsoft to make further inroads there (supposedly continental Europe favors the PS3 of the HD consoles).
Sony is in between a rock and a hard place, it really depends on what they plan to do with the PS4.
However, for Nintendo they need to guns blazing fast. I suspect the mediocre Western sales for the 3DS is the reason why we are getting Generation 6 in 2013 as opposed to 2014. New Leaf has good potential to be a high seller as well (Wild World did sell very well in the West). Smash 4 3DS I think would also be a really good seller for the 3DS. Nintendo does not have any bullets left for the Western market after those three games (aside from price cuts).
The Vita is pretty much dead though. I think Sony will pull the plug on the console by the end of 2013, or 2014 at the latest. Its possible Sony could save it by doing something crafty (like making Vitas the controllers for the PS4), however, that's assuming the PS4 does well (it will most like be in the Wii U's shadow in Japan, and X-Box's successor's shadow in the US). If it does make the Vita the PS4's main controller, I think the Vita would be able to carve a niche out for itself.
As for the 3DS, it definitely won't be pulling DS numbers (especially in the West). The handheld video game console market has really contracted.
For 2013, the only titles Nintendo has lined up for the 3DS in the West are FE13, Luigi's Mansion 2, Animal Crossing: New Leaf, and Pokemong X/Y. There is probably going to be at least one more major title released as well. However, I could easily see it being FE13 for Q1, Luigi's Mansion 2 for Q2 (the boxart has already been leaked), Animal Crossing: New Leaf for Q3, and Pokemon X/Y for Q4. New Leaf is possible as a Q2 title as well though.
The Wii U situation is perhaps worse, because unlike the 3DS, it does not even have a decent library built up. There are no first-party titles being published for Q1. Nintendo better have a very big show at E3 2013 for the Wii U.
There is a lot of expectations being placed upon Sakurai. Each Smash Bros. game thus far has been a much greater escalation in terms of scale, ambition, and hype than the last. In terms of characters, he has very few bullets left. I think Sakurai has some very big plans for Smash 4, and that the scale in terms of what he has planned for the gameplay is going to get far more people hyped than the likely revealing of those last few hype worthy characters.
I think the AR cards that Sakurai did for Kid Icarus Uprising are going to be expanded upon for Smash 4. It may even be expanded to figurines.
You just described how echo chambers work.
People keep bouncing around the same non-sense until they have tricked themselves and others into thinking it's real.
That's great because I didn't know what an echo chamber was.
I can't speak for others but I don't think what we're saying is fact. We're just trying to make sense of it all with speculation and some ideas make more sense (of course there's a chance it is wrong in the end). Any type of significant info can totally change what we once strongly believed and everyone here knows that and probably wants that, mio.
Idk, in this case since we all know nothing about the game saying either "I think" or "I can say" means the same, imo, since it's all speculation. And that is very true for Wario and I would love to see Syrup as another Wario Rep but some series just have a better standing with Sakurai so this a time where his personal taste may come into play and that cannot be fully rationalized when comparing FE to Wario. Sakurai could easily feel like Wario and his to costumes is all that is needed to rep his franchise. ZZS was a good edition but Ridley would have been the best choice, imo. But Sakurai also felt the need to add more female characters so ZSS. And when you think about, it's still Samus and it's not really a "new rep".
LoZ is not a good example, imo. It's a legendary franchise at the end of the day so Sakurai has to respect if he likes it or not.
I see what your saying. I do think Pichu has importance to the Pokemon series but being close to pikachu did help it's cause to make it into Melee. I can't about Pokemon rep because as long as there's Pikachu I'm fine. I wouldn't mind a PKMN trainer with the 3 new starters though.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I'm just glad we got to 6th gen this soon, cause 5th gen really didn't have many solid options that felt Smash-worthy to me.
I hope 6th gen gets another char that makes all the world of sense to put into Smash Bros.
I hope 6th gen gets another char that makes all the world of sense to put into Smash Bros.
As somebody who was very much into the hardcore community...I really wish they would make this game competitive again :/
All the items and whacky moves and trips...just get rid of it and give us a good fighting game that will last. I almost wish there was a game mode that turned off all those whacky situations, stages, trips, items... ugg I love the game but it needs a serious online re-haul and speed the damn thing up! Brawl was fun but it's so slow and floaty
Bring back the wave dash
All the items and whacky moves and trips...just get rid of it and give us a good fighting game that will last. I almost wish there was a game mode that turned off all those whacky situations, stages, trips, items... ugg I love the game but it needs a serious online re-haul and speed the damn thing up! Brawl was fun but it's so slow and floaty
Bring back the wave dash
Neoriceisgood
Member
One thing in Melee I actually found strangely entertaining was that one mode where the B button was disabled. Together with the battle-achievements (only faced right, etc) it's one of the things I missed most in Brawl.
I agree with you on how important Smash will be for Nintendo this generation with the WiiU. This is why I hope they go all out and try to implement DLC characters, content, and anything else they could think of. That partnership with Namco just makes it even better. It would be a waste if they don't at least try because it's the best way to keep people interested in Smash throughout it's life time while turning a profit even more. I think we'll defintely get something at e3 now because like with the Pokemon announcement it can generate hype for a system that really needs it.
I still think there are a number of characters worthy of hype and a 2nd chance through Smash. I think we'll never agree on that lol. Almost any character can be transformed into something unique like Captain Falcon so I would enjoy seeing a lot of suprises. That will be my main draw to the game.
AR cards? maybe. That's more stuff I'd have to buy lol. I think that would pretty interesting.
No
That is absolutely the worst thing you can do to Smash Bros. I agree about removing tripping though, that was entirely pointless and stupid. But removing everything else? FUCK THAT SHIT
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
What?!? I only agreed with you on Tripping but keep rest of list in the game.
Congz on your tag. I really like it.
Agreed.
I really don't get it. Why would some people WANT Smash Bros to remove items and silliness? Like... did they forget what the game is intended for? Why remove the fun for those who isn't into competitive play? Why the hell should Nintendo only cater to a niche part of the fan base? I mean... don't you even realize how selfish that is?
And for the record, I have nothing against the competitive scene. Everyone is free to play however they want... but to limit that is just ridiculous.
And for the record, I have nothing against the competitive scene. Everyone is free to play however they want... but to limit that is just ridiculous.
Not surprised. Items are already optional, and there's already a set amount of stages viable for tourneys. Not sure what the problem is, other than you wanting it to look like a game meant to be taken super serious.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Thankya!
I think good control on turning things off/on is nice. There's a few stages I'd play a lot more without annoying hazards.
As far as I know we can already turn off all items though so I'm not sure where the idea that we need to remove items comes from.
That reminds me, doesn't Brawl have a random stage select switch? I always forgot it existed. lol
Oh and in speaking of item switches: Has anyone ever played on Mushroomy Kingdom with just Smart Bombs on?
If you're talking about my post, it was in reference to Mew2's post, who wanted items to be removed to make the game "good".
Neoriceisgood
Member
Hahah yeah I have. My favourite item-setup is just explosives on.
Oh I know who you were referencing to, I just don't get why someone would want no items, makes no sense to me.
Haha yeah, it is soooo fun. I hope they keep that level for SSB4 just for that.
Oh okay. Just making sure because I sometimes say things word and wanted to make sure I was clear.
ps congrats on member title
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
You want an in-game commentary?
I wonder if every character will be brought back in Smash 4 (even Pichu and Dr. Mario). I am sure if there is character DLC for Smash 4 everyone would be brought back.
In Japan, there is much less whining about clones than there in the West. Sakurai puts a lot of personality into all of his characters that he designs, even for pathetic clones like Pichu. A character like Pichu still receives a lot of love despite being purposedly made to be awful and being an objectively worse version of Pikachu? Why? Because Sakurai puts something into his characters that most people who design fighters do not: Charm.
In Japan, there is much less whining about clones than there in the West. Sakurai puts a lot of personality into all of his characters that he designs, even for pathetic clones like Pichu. A character like Pichu still receives a lot of love despite being purposedly made to be awful and being an objectively worse version of Pikachu? Why? Because Sakurai puts something into his characters that most people who design fighters do not: Charm.
Wave dash is pretty terrible, too weird to perform and splits the community. Kinda like snaking in MK
S, except harder to do. And even if they made something analogous to it, it would totally change the game.Wave dash is pretty terrible, too weird to perform and splits the community. Kinda like snaking in MK
I really hope there is something game changing though. Something to really change things up.
Some kind of dash might be cool, as long as it isn't as OP as wavedashing. They have a good formula going though, so I don't think it needs much.
I would like to see a mode where you can get supers without Smash Balls though, maybe by having a lot of damage and not dying, or getting a lot of attacks in.
I think supers would be ok in the way you described. That would be a reasonable way to implement Final Smashes in a non item based way. I think that or maybe even a Super Smash of some type that can be built up over time that will be a stronger Smash attack or combo.
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