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NGP @ GDC (Liveblog Over, Slides Up)

Smiles and Cries said:
when I first saw the NGP I was in love with the sexiness but I got to say I don't really like this GDC unit :(

I'll wait to see what the final white one looks like please look the same as the first mock ups

OMG. THIS! I wasn't that enamored with the original design either but atleast the plastic looked incredibly sexy and glossy. The GDC units seem to be using some cheap plastic that looks awful.



If the NGP doesn't include internal memory for caching and preloading game assets, they sure as hell better include a LOT of ram. And fast ram at that.

Either 512mbs of LPDDR2 ram or 1gb would be ideal. Or they could use some very fast video ram and a lot of generic but slow LPDDR1 ram for general system use.

This is how Epic Citadel was able to look so good on the iPhone, by storing tons and tons of high resolution textures and backgrounds to the RAM. It's also why no 3DS game will have comparable textures, and why Unreal Engine 3 isn't being ported to the 3DS (96mbs of ram).
 
Luigiv said:
gofreak said:
I think people are reading a bit too much into the RAM comment. Afterall 512MB+128MB VRAM is 'closer to PS3' than it is to PSP. I think also the comment about VRAM pretty much confirms the French site's report on specs (if the many other things mentioned did not).
Given the overly blunt writing style, they probably would have said "more then PS3' not "closer to PS3' if that were the case.

I honestly, I have no idea what to make of that statement.
It could be that they are trying to position the NGP as close to PS3 level, and the PS3 as their high end level. That's the impression I got from the slides. That might explain why they wouldn't want to outright advertize that any aspect of the device exceeds the PS3 in any fashion, only that it comes close to it.


Fafalada said:
That's called people not buying your system, though I suppose you can classify that as a form of anti-piracy scheme...

We live in a world where 16GB cards are 20$, even Sony's MemorySticks. A year from now, you'll have 32GB microSD cards under 50$.
I don't think that's enough to stop people from buying the NGP. They're using a proprietary memory card for a reason, they can charge as much as they want. If they charge a lot for high storage cards, they DO discourage piracy initially.

Stephen Colbert said:
Say the only memory cards you can buy are proprietry memory cards from sony, that's the only way you can store stuff on the device, and those cards will probably only be cheap for 4gbs or so. Large storage cards will likely be very expensive.

It wouldn't be worth it for pirates to rip two 2gb NGP games onto one 4gb propriety card. And it would only barely be worth it for them to spend a $100 on a 16gb card just to store 8 pirated NGP games on it.

However, the 4gb propriety card should be enough to store a rental movie for a day or two, and store dozens of PSN games and PS One games, and a few PS two games too.
I want to clarify that I don't think it'll actually work for long though. Eventually, someone will make something like a DS flashcart for the NGP so you can just stick a generic 32gb microSD stick in there. Sony will do what it can to crack down on the makers, and have ebay and amazon stop selling such carts, but those that really want them will be able to get them just fine.


There hasn't been a single major console or handheld yet that hasn't been cracked, not one. Sony won't be the first. The PS3 held out longer than any device, but only managed that by offering up Linux to the legit hackers that are interested in emulators but are not really interested in piracy (the most talented ones imo), so that they could play their emulators of old SNES and Genesis games just fine. But within an year of taking that away, the system was cracked wide open.

The NGP's best bet to stop piracy is to offer up Andriod to hackers with access to only two of the CPU/GPU cores, with the other two shielded with a hypervisor like the one PS3 used to shield the GPU from being accessed through Linux. That will let the hackers play homebrews and emulators of old systems just fine and takes away the main incentive for hackers.
 
Sony_NGP_button_detail--article_image.jpg


Are the analog sticks felt-tipped?
 
Stephen Colbert said:
I think it's more about combating piracy than shaving costs.

That'd be one of the dumbest approaches I could imagine. "Hey guys, let's fight piracy by making it completely impractical to buy digital copies of our games due to lack of storage space!" It'd be the Wii fridge all over again.
 
charlequin said:
That'd be one of the dumbest approaches I could imagine. "Hey guys, let's fight piracy by making it completely impractical to buy digital copies of our games due to lack of storage space!" It'd be the Wii fridge all over again.

Haha. I never heard that expression before.
 
Yeah on second thought, Sony probably realizes that it wouldn't do much to stop piracy in the long run. It might even encourage it by giving manufacturers an incentive for to produce a flash card that lets people stick a cheap 16gb microsd in it.

If Sony goes with a propriety format, and I hope they don't, it will just a way to let them sell the system for cheaper. But lack of internal storage could well eat into rental sales and game sales over PSN, so it will might actually cost them more money in the long run.

The smart strategy would be to include some memory with every sku and also include a voucher for a free PSN movie rental and a free PSN game purchase with the premium skus to get people used to the idea of getting stuff off of PSN.
 
distrbnce said:
http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Daily/2011/03-Mar/02/NGP%20shots/Sony_NGP_button_detail--article_image.jpg[/IMG]

Are the analog sticks felt-tipped?

It looks to be the same texture as on the dualshock.
 
Just found that Swedish retailer Webhallen has put up the NGP (PSP2) on their online store.
With a price of 3295 SEK for the wifi only version. That would likely mean a US retail price
of 299 USD. And 3995 SEK for the 3g version which would probably translate to 399 USD.

They also state a preliminary release date of Christmas 2011.

This might be pure speculation from their part, Webhallen does have a record of leaking
products and product pricing.

http://www.webhallen.com/spel/playstation_portable/121856-psp_2_basenhet
http://www.webhallen.com/spel/playstation_portable/128498-psp_2_basenhet_3g
 
Kingsgoon said:
Just found that Swedish retailer Webhallen has put up the NGP (PSP2) on their online store.
With a price of 3295 SEK for the wifi only version. That would likely mean a US retail price
of 299 USD. And 3995 SEK for the 3g version which would probably translate to 399 USD.

They also state a preliminary release date of Christmas 2011.

This might be pure speculation from their part, Webhallen does have a record of leaking
products and product pricing.

http://www.webhallen.com/spel/playstation_portable/121856-psp_2_basenhet
http://www.webhallen.com/spel/playstation_portable/128498-psp_2_basenhet_3g

They actually put it up after the PS meeting so I think they're just guessing but I think it's a pretty good guess.
 
summary from eurogamer

At a Game Developers Conference session, Sony has moved to dispel the myth that its Next Generation Portable could rival PS3 for processor performance.

David Coombes, a platform research manager for Sony Computer Entertainment America, explained that although the NGP is equipped with a high-performance quad-core CPU theoretically capable of 2GHz, the clock speeds will have to be dialled down in order to preserve the PSP successor's battery life and prevent it from running too hot.

"Some people in the press have said wow, this thing... could be as powerful as PS3. Well, it's not going to run at 2GHz because the battery would last five minutes," he said. "And it would probably set fire to your pants."

In his engineering-themed tour of the NGP's features, Coombes shed some extra light on the handheld's specifications and performance.

He mentioned that the game cards - the solid state physical media on which NGP games will be available in shops - would come in 2GB and 4GB sizes.

NGP games will therefore have a maximum size of 4GB. He compared this to the 9GB size of a typical PS3 game on Blu-ray, or the 10MB size of an average mobile phone game.

Coombes couldn't reveal how much memory NGP will have, but stressed that it was more than enough. "I can't talk about actual numbers, but compared to PSP we have a lot of memory... we're closer to PS3 than PSP in terms of memory size."

source
 
Stephen Colbert said:
Yeah on second thought, Sony probably realizes that it wouldn't do much to stop piracy in the long run. It might even encourage it by giving manufacturers an incentive for to produce a flash card that lets people stick a cheap 16gb microsd in it.

If Sony goes with a propriety format, and I hope they don't, it will just a way to let them sell the system for cheaper. But lack of internal storage could well eat into rental sales and game sales over PSN, so it will might actually cost them more money in the long run.

The smart strategy would be to include some memory with every sku and also include a voucher for a free PSN movie rental and a free PSN game purchase with the premium skus to get people used to the idea of getting stuff off of PSN.

Exactly, they need to have enough memory from the get go to download the biggest file from PSN, if there is no memory on the NGP from the get go, then casuals wouldn't even bother with the PSN store. So I think 8GB is the perfect amount of memory for the basic SKU. You have enough memory to download the biggest PSN file (a multidisk PS1 game, a HD movie and etc) but the memory is low enough where the user would run out fast so they need to buy expandable memory. This way Sony can get people hooked on PSN, then when they run out of memory they will need to buy a memory card.

Internal memory is also useful for caching data and preloading game assets. Also some of the memory can be used for firmware features, such as web browser and etc. Flash memory doesn't even cost much, I could buy a 8GB USB flash drive for £7. Finally remember the original rumour that got pretty much all the NGP rumours right, well that rumor also stated the NGP will have 16GB internal memory.

I expect the SKUs to be priced like this
NGP WiFi/8GB - $299.99
NGP 3G/WiFi/16GB - $399.99
 
I think Sony should offer some sort of "internal" memory. Maybe 2GB on the base SKU. Maybe nothing at all, would explain the rewritable memory on the carts.
 
IonicSnake said:

I am so glad he addressed my concern!

What key learnings were you able take from your work on PSP?
PSP was an impressive piece of hardware when it debuted, with the core performance and the screen enabling PlayStation 2 quality games on the go. However, as the home console generation moved to PlayStation 3, consumers felt games of a similar quality should be playable on handheld consoles too. PSP suffers from the lack of dual analog input, which limits the types of games that play well and PlayStation Network was not supported at launch, although this was added at a later date. Clearly, we have given a lot of thought to this and developed the network plans for NGP based on our experience with PSP

I cant wait to see what new IPs, they bring.
 
bwahhhhh said:
"We plan to put games on NGP. The architecture of NGP should allow many games to be programmed on it."


So they are copying Nintendo by including pre installed software/games?
 
Bizzyb said:
So they are copying Nintendo by including pre installed software/games?
Nintendo invented pre-installed software on gaming devices. Everyone else is just a copycat.
/Nintendiot
 
gbovo said:
Could you post a transcript of it? Their site is blocked at work.

Here's the full interview.

How do you feel the reception to NGP from the public and the media has been?
It's been fantastic. We have worked hard on the NGP platform from the software development and creative standpoint, and judging from consumer and media feedback, our belief on various aspects of developing NGP has been well founded. The feedback we have been getting from game developers has been enormously positive, too. Overall, the reception has been hugely energizing.

How long have you been discussing and developing games for NGP?
Since the beginning of 2008, WWS have been officially involved in the development of NGP by SCEI, and not just with developing games, but in the development of the various aspects of the platform itself too, such as hardware performance and component choices, form factor, usability tests, connectivity, user interface and features, target audience, business models and software product portfolio. In short, everything.

What key learnings were you able take from your work on PSP?
PSP was an impressive piece of hardware when it debuted, with the core performance and the screen enabling PlayStation 2 quality games on the go. However, as the home console generation moved to PlayStation 3, consumers felt games of a similar quality should be playable on handheld consoles too. PSP suffers from the lack of dual analog input, which limits the types of games that play well and PlayStation Network was not supported at launch, although this was added at a later date. Clearly, we have given a lot of thought to this and developed the network plans for NGP based on our experience with PSP.

How does NGP open up the portable PlayStation experience to new genres?
Various unique user interfaces and digital distribution will help developers experiment with many different types of games, whether they be intuitive, casual games using dual touch; augmented reality games; location based fun activities or network only, free to play, online games. The possibilities are endless for creative developers.

How much storage will the new physical media allow and what kind of content will be included on it?
Games will be made available via the new game media, which is based on flash memory, the storage capacity of which will be larger than Universal Media Disc. As it is flash memory based, you will be able to store game saves on it, not just the game itself, as well as some downloadable content if space allows.

What games are you most looking forward to?
I'm looking forward to playing action adventure titles and first person shooters with gorgeous graphics using the dual analog sticks, as well as some new, unique titles which will make use of the NGP user interface. I'm intrigued to see what developers will come up with using the rear touch pad too. Finally, I'm looking forward to seeing how the location based info will be used to enhance games. It is exciting to think how you can integrate your location data into the actual gameplay.

How much input has there been from non-SCE developers?

The NGP development team visited many developers and publishers globally with an early prototype of the hardware to get direct feedback. I also personally joined some of the meetings to discuss various aspects of NGP and the options we were looking at. The input of other developers outside of WWS has been essential for us to make final decisions on NGP. As a result of this, we went through many iterations of NGP. It reminded me of the early days of the original PlayStation, when we visited many developers and publishers to get feedback during the development of that product. It's almost as if SCE has gone back to basics, which should be a good thing

Are you planning to provide bespoke games for PlayStation Suite?
Yes, we are looking to provide short form games on PS Suite, which will run on both PlayStation Certified Android devices and NGP. However, the true heroes on PS Suite will be small, independent developers, who are much more nimble and have some creative ideas that have never been seen before. I'm very excited to see what kinds of game these small developers will provide via PS Suite later this year.

How will the types of game in development progress over time?
We are working on our popular series as well as brand new concepts, large games and short form games, augmented reality games, touch only games and network only games. We are also looking to expand over time from hardcore to casual games, games for younger consumers and non-game applications as well. We understand traditional games are not the only entertainment that people look for, and NGP allows us to develop various types of entertainment on the same hardware platform, which is very exciting.
 
Baki said:
I think Sony should offer some sort of "internal" memory. Maybe 2GB on the base SKU. Maybe nothing at all, would explain the rewritable memory on the carts.

I don't understand just because rewritable memory on carts means they won't have internal memory. Most carts have rewritable memory from SNES games to N64 to DS games. Only 5%-10% of a cart will be rewritable. That is only enough space for gamesaves (which most carts in history do anyway) and patched and small DLC. There is not enough rewritable memory for huge DLC such as the new Dead Space DLC.
 
They don't 'need' significant internal (non-removable) memory if every SKU comes with a certain minimum capacity removable card.

But of course each unit will have some internal memory somewhere - the OS has to live somewhere independent from removable memory. I would guess it'll be just enough for the OS and maybe a scratchpad for OS caching or something. DLC/patches/saves will go on the game card or removable card.
 
gbovo said:
Nintendo invented pre-installed software on gaming devices. Everyone else is just a copycat.
/Nintendiot


As far as handhelds go, I'm pretty sure Nintendo did it first or was at least the first to make a huge point of it.

Besides, I was only asking a question and it wouldn't be the first time Sony copied something someone else did so don't see why you are so defensive.
 
KAL2006 said:
I don't understand just because rewritable memory on carts means they won't have internal memory. Most carts have rewritable memory from SNES games to N64 to DS games. Only 5%-10% of a cart will be rewritable. That is only enough space for gamesaves (which most carts in history do anyway) and patched and small DLC. There is not enough rewritable memory for huge DLC such as the new Dead Space DLC.

Although internal memory is instrumental in encouraging digital purchases at the lower end of the spectrum, the bottom line is that something has to be cut to make the low-end SKU be within a reasonable price range. For a system that accepts expandable memory, internal memory is the first thing that can "go".

PS: I think 2-4GB is completely feasible and affordable. Even on a base SKU.
 
charlequin said:
That really can't possibly be right.

It's an assumption on Eurogamer's part because they only mentioned 2 and 4GB varieties.

I would be surprised if a larger card didn't come down the road, although tbh I think most NGP games will fall into a 2 or 4GB card. If devs really want more I'm sure Sony will provide it in time.

The next step up would be a 8GB card, and for today, for this year, they're probably too expensive to be of interest to publishers.
 
Stephen Colbert said:
I think it's more about combating piracy than shaving costs.

Say the only memory cards you can buy are proprietry memory cards from sony, that's the only way you can store stuff on the device, and those cards will probably only be cheap for 4gbs or so. Large storage cards will likely be very expensive.

It wouldn't be worth it for pirates to rip two 2gb NGP games onto one 4gb propriety card. And it would only barely be worth it for them to spend a $100 on a 16gb card just to store 8 pirated NGP games on it.

However, the 4gb propriety card should be enough to store a rental movie for a day or two, and store dozens of PSN games and PS One games, and a few PS two games too.

Kenak said:
So? The PSP original also offers games at the retail and digital levels. PSP Go = DL only. Hence it was necessary for it to always have storage. No storage = no games. NGP does not have this problem, so having storage is not as necessary.

Not saying it won't, but I wouldn't base expectations on the PSP Go.


Yeah, I guess that is true. But at the same time not only did all three release at different times, but they are quite literally different pieces of hardware.

I stand by my point that, for various reasons, it'll be very bad to release this when iphones, ipod touches, 3DS, PSPGos, etc have internal storage.
 
There's no need for Sony to include (user-accessible) memory flash memory to the core unit.

If the game carts allow for saves. then that might be just enough for most consumers.
They can sell their proprietary storage solution to the consumers who are interested in DD. It's all about offering choice.
 
AranhaHunter said:
I stand by my point that, for various reasons, it'll be very bad to release this when iphones, ipod touches, 3DS, PSPGos, etc have internal storage.
Many handsets have actually an small amount of internal memory for the OS then use a SD card for mass storage. Is not a bad setup.

neptunes said:
There's no need for Sony to include (user-accessible) memory flash memory to the core unit.

If the game carts allow for saves. then that might be just enough for most consumers.
They can sell their proprietary storage solution to the consumers who are interested in DD. It's all about offering choice.
They must offer an storage solution out of the Box if they want their DD efforts to not be DOA.
 
Lonely1 said:
Many handsets have actually an small amount of internal memory for the OS then use a SD card for mass storage. Is not a bad setup.


They must offer an storage solution out of the Box if they want their DD efforts to not be DOA.
Why would their DD efforts be DOA if they don't include storage? Those who aren't interested in DD wouldn't be buying stuff online anyway. Those who are will buy the necessary storage.

This solution also makes retailers happy, seeing as how they wouldn't be getting any sort of $$$ from DD otherwise.

Lonely1 said:
Sony is supposed so sell the idea to them.
...and they still can. they would just have to buy the necessary accessories. Mind you, I'm only referring to the existence of a lower-priced "Core" SKU.
 
H_Prestige said:
Realistically speaking if most ps3 games are 9-10 GB and 360 games are less than 7 GB, is 4 GB for a handheld a problem?

If anything we will just have, like X360 games and multiple discs, multi-cart PS3 games...though were there any multi cart DS games, I know there are multi umd psp games.
 
neptunes said:
Why would their DD efforts be DOA if they don't include storage? Those who aren't interested in DD wouldn't be buying stuff online anyway. Those who are will buy the appropriate accessories.
Sony is supposed to sell the idea to them.
 
H_Prestige said:
Realistically speaking if most ps3 games are 9-10 GB and 360 games are less than 7 GB, is 4 GB for a handheld a problem?

That's less than half the size of a single dual-layer DVD, so it might very well be a problem for console->NGP porting or for FMV-heavy titles. If larger sizes are available shortly after launch or if multi-cart releases are possible, it might not pose too much of an issue.
 
neptunes said:
Why would their DD efforts be DOA if they don't include storage? Those who aren't interested in DD wouldn't be buying stuff online anyway. Those who are will buy the necessary storage.

This solution also makes retailers happy, seeing as how they wouldn't be getting any sort of $$$ from DD otherwise.

Sony wants to encourage people to buy from PSN. PSN is really the cornerstone of their strategy going forward and not including pre-installed storage on a Playstation device is contrary to that goal.

There's nothing stopping Sony from making a cheaper PS3 "arcade" with no HDD, but they haven't done it because they don't think it's worth the lost revenue from PSN.
 
Lonely1 said:
Many handsets have actually an small amount of internal memory for the OS then use a SD card for mass storage. Is not a bad setup.


They must offer an storage solution out of the Box if they want their DD efforts to not be DOA.
XBOX360 arcade didn't seem to hurt live any.
 
Launch games are already confirmed to be dual releases so a storage solution is guaranteed out of the gate.
 
H_Prestige said:
Sony wants to encourage people to buy from PSN. PSN is really the cornerstone of their strategy going forward and not including pre-installed storage on a Playstation device is contrary to that goal.

There's nothing stopping Sony from making a cheaper PS3 "arcade" with no HDD, but they haven't done it because they don't think it's worth the lost revenue from PSN.
Well, without an HD in a PS3 a vast majority of the games just wouldn't work.
 
Man said:
Launch games are already confirmed to be dual releases so a storage solution is guaranteed out of the gate.
I don't think anyone is saying there won't be a storage solution. But whether or not there will be "on board" storage or some sort of SD card in the box.
 
H_Prestige said:
Sony wants to encourage people to buy from PSN. PSN is really the cornerstone of their strategy going forward and not including pre-installed storage on a Playstation device is contrary to that goal.

There's nothing stopping Sony from making a cheaper PS3 "arcade" with no HDD, but they haven't done it because they don't think it's worth the lost revenue from PSN.

Well to be fair, LIVE has been doing respectable numbers considering a fair amount of people own ARCADES.

That said, I would hope Sony offers at least 2GB internal memory for all SKU's.
 
googleplex said:
Well with out an HD in a PS3 a vast majority of the games just wouldn't work.

Wouldn't 4gb of flash be enough for any game? The 360 arcade has that much but no way can you use 4gb to download things from XBL or PSN. MS gets around this problem by offering very easy to install hard drives and expandable USB storage.
 
H_Prestige said:
Realistically speaking if most ps3 games are 9-10 GB and 360 games are less than 7 GB, is 4 GB for a handheld a problem?

Well, I think it depends on how many multi-platform games people are expecting.
 
charlequin said:
Well, I think it depends on how many multi-platform games people are expecting.

Considering 'HD' games often fit on ~7GB of space, or whatever it is on 360, I dunno how big an issue there'd be there. There are a lot of offsets to consider also that ought to mitigate things to one degree or another - videos will be half (or a quarter) the size they are on PS3 or 360, in-game assets will be pared back out of processing constraints elsewhere, audio files can presumably be pared back an awful lot given the audio environment on a handheld vs a home machine. And on top of that, they shouldn't need to use any file replication or worry about laying out files in a particular way to minimise access/seek time - things that sometimes limit 'real' usable space on a DVD. While I'd hesitate to say that there'd never be a problem, this isn't really a comparison we can make apples-to-apples. We'll have to wait and see if devs working in a multiplatform context start complaining about it.

That said, though, I think it's pretty obvious that economy rather than technology is what's limiting game card size to 4GB. And economics will change over time. In a couple of years 8GB cards might be as cheap as 4GBs are now, and so then may be feasible for publishers. There's no point in offering 8GB now just because it's technically possible if they're going to cost an arm and a leg, which they would do, in a world where some game media costs cents. 2 and 4GB cards are probably already more expensive than DVDs or Blu-ray.
 
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