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NGP @ GDC (Liveblog Over, Slides Up)

Dedicated HW for media playback... interesting... they could be talking about a PowerVR licensed block for video decoding or they could be talking about a modified version of PSP1's Media Engine (which could help with BC too).
 
AR looks as janky as on the 3DS, which is a little disappointing. Is this something that can be solved with software at the moment?
 
Slavik81 said:
I was surprised to learn that the 360 and PS3 do not have branch prediction. If the PSP2 does, is that a sign that future home consoles likely will as well?

This isn't really relevant to anything. I'm just curious.
Click to expand...
There are trade offs to having branch prediction. It makes the chips bigger because they have to store a lot of data on the branches. It also uses more power.

Kinda seems like the opposite of something you'd want on a handheld.
 
Panajev2001a said:
Dedicated HW for media playback... interesting... they could be talking about a PowerVR licensed block for video decoding or they could be talking about a modified version of PSP1's Media Engine (which could help with BC too).
Click to expand...

One of the audio middleware providers talked about doing their stuff on the NGP's 'media engine' to minimise CPU processing - we thought at the time it was maybe a reference to NEON units, but I would guess not now.

There are some other interesting details in those slides that have gone unmentioned, maybe worth a mention for those who haven't looked at the slides:

- 60fps cameras
- 1 of the CPU cores is reserved (predictably), 3 available to applications
- 5-10% of game card storage will be rewriteable
- Game item gifting and trading between players is possible on near. Treasure hunts coming 'after launch' - I'm guessing players will be able to leave down items at locations of their choosing for others to discover

I think people are reading a bit too much into the RAM comment. Afterall 512MB+128MB VRAM is 'closer to PS3' than it is to PSP. I think also the comment about VRAM pretty much confirms the French site's report on specs (if the many other things mentioned did not).
 
gofreak said:
One of the audio middleware providers talked about doing their stuff on the NGP's 'media engine' to minimise CPU processing - we thought at the time it was maybe a reference to NEON units, but I would guess not now.

There are some other interesting details in those slides that have gone unmentioned, maybe worth a mention for those who haven't looked at the slides:

- 60fps cameras
- 1 of the CPU cores is reserved (predictably), 3 available to applications
- 5-10% of game card storage will be rewriteable
- Game item gifting and trading between players is possible on near. Treasure hunts coming 'after launch' - I'm guessing players will be able to leave down items at locations of their choosing for others to discover

I think people are reading a bit too much into the RAM comment. Afterall 512MB+128MB VRAM is 'closer to PS3' than it is to PSP. I think also the comment about VRAM pretty much confirms the French site's report on specs (if the many other things mentioned did not).
Click to expand...

one core is reserved for the system, out of the other tree one entirely could be used for video feed processing.
 
Vic said:
What is the purpose of reserving one CPU?
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Same as the reserved SPU on PS3 I guess. Provide games with various background services, probably figures into the security architecture also. Hopefully, though, the in-game OS access is also a lot more mature than it is on PS3.


°°ToMmY°° said:
one core is reserved for the system, out of the other tree one entirely could be used for video feed processing.
Click to expand...


'Video feed processing' ?
 
gofreak said:
Same as the reserved SPU on PS3 I guess. Provide games with various background services, probably figures into the security architecture also. Hopefully, though, the in-game OS access is also a lot more mature than it is on PS3.





'Video feed processing' ?
Click to expand...

sorry, i meant the video data gathered by the cam. if your game wants to support the camera you need to dedicate an entire core to the video processing.
 
°°ToMmY°° said:
sorry, i meant the video data gathered by the cam. if your game wants to support the camera you need to dedicate an entire core to the video processing.
Click to expand...

I guess how much you have to use for video processing in that context will depend on what you're doing. That's an application level concern though. If you want to make a very physics-based game you might want to dedicated one or two cores to physics. If you want to make a very AI heavy game you might want to use a lot of power for AI. It's up to the game.

That said, on a slightly more pedantic point the concept of 'dedicating' cores to one task alone seems to be falling away a bit, with the move to job-queues and such. Under the latter model you don't really set aside a core and say 'this is the physics core, this is the AI core'.
 
gofreak said:
Same as the reserved SPU on PS3 I guess. Provide games with various background services, probably figures into the security architecture also. Hopefully, though, the in-game OS access is also a lot more mature than it is on PS3.
Click to expand...

One would hope so. It was practically non-existant in the early days of PS3 and was hacked in later with varying degrees of success (painfully slow in-game XMB for example and no access at all to most XMB features). :P
 
gofreak said:
I think people are reading a bit too much into the RAM comment. Afterall 512MB+128MB VRAM is 'closer to PS3' than it is to PSP. I think also the comment about VRAM pretty much confirms the French site's report on specs (if the many other things mentioned did not).
Click to expand...
Given the overly blunt writing style, they probably would have said "more then PS3' not "closer to PS3' if that were the case.

I honestly, I have no idea what to make of that statement.
 
I REALLY think that Sony should stop using Uncharted PSP2 to demo the capabilities of the handheld.

I'm sure that there is not one soul excited about playing Uncharted PSP2 swiping in the screen, it is more of an annoyance than anything else.

They should demo a game made specifically for the console, where one can see why they put all the things that the handheld has.
 
manueldelalas said:
They should demo a game made specifically for the console, where one can see why they put all the things that the handheld has.
Click to expand...

Both times that they've demoed Uncharted they've also demoed Little Deviants. That's designed specifically for the PSP2.
 
That Uncharted video is awful. Touch controls for the sake of including them in the game is stupid.

Way to show to the developers how to use your hardware Sony.
 
Luigiv said:
Given the overly blunt writing style, they probably would have said "more then PS3' not "closer to PS3' if that were the case.

I honestly, I have no idea what to make of that statement.
Click to expand...

It just means that it is closer in memory size to PS3 [than PSP]. That statement works whether it's a little more (as previously reported) or a little less than PS3.

Sony could well continue to twiddle the specs and change the amount of RAM from the previously reported numbers, I just don't see anything in that statement that suggests they've done so.


manueldelalas said:
I REALLY think that Sony should stop using Uncharted PSP2 to demo the capabilities of the handheld.

I'm sure that there is not one soul excited about playing Uncharted PSP2 swiping in the screen, it is more of an annoyance than anything else.

They should demo a game made specifically for the console, where one can see why they put all the things that the handheld has.
Click to expand...

Such a demo would be very contrived. People have already given out about them contriving to include things in the Uncharted demo 'just to show off the hardware'.
 
darkwing said:
its a tech demo
Click to expand...

it'll be in the proper game as well. i think it's understandable that the early games will be a bit gimmicky and tbh i'd rather bend got it out out of their system with a retarded version of uncharted than a proper

IF they make a syphon filter game i hope it makes more subtle, appropriate use of the controls.
 
Sipowicz said:
it'll be in the proper game as well.
Click to expand...

They were apparently quite explicit that this was just a demo, and not necessarily indicative of options in the game.

I would guess it's a prototype Bend did to brainstorm possibilities. As such it makes for a good demo but it's not necessarily in context.
 
Maybe they just don't want people freaking out if it's revealed that the NGP has more RAM than their flagship home console. Course, that was true of the PSP when released, too.
 
Brad Grenz said:
Maybe they just don't want people freaking out if it's revealed that the NGP has more RAM than their flagship home console. Course, that was true of the PSP when released, too.
Click to expand...
No it wasn't. The PSP1000 has 32+2MB whilst the PS2 has 32+4MB. The PSP2000 increased the main memory to 64MB but was purely for the sake of reducing loading times. Devs can not use the extra 32MB for anything other then background loading.
 
gofreak said:
I guess how much you have to use for video processing in that context will depend on what you're doing. That's an application level concern though. If you want to make a very physics-based game you might want to dedicated one or two cores to physics. If you want to make a very AI heavy game you might want to use a lot of power for AI. It's up to the game.

That said, on a slightly more pedantic point the concept of 'dedicating' cores to one task alone seems to be falling away a bit, with the move to job-queues and such. Under the latter model you don't really set aside a core and say 'this is the physics core, this is the AI core'.
Click to expand...

Also it's important to note that the entire system is designed around the latest OpenGL and OpenCL libraries, so the GPU isn't just limited to graphics tasks (unlike the PS3). Stuff like physics and video processing can be done on both the GPU and CPU cores, so you can effectively leverage the full amount of processing resources available for a given task.
 
farnham said:
wow ngp really looks like its going to be the dominant handheld this gen

if its region free day 1
Click to expand...
Yes because this has a significant impact.

I don't know which handheld is going to be the dominant one :s
 
gofreak said:
They were apparently quite explicit that this was just a demo, and not necessarily indicative of options in the game.

I would guess it's a prototype Bend did to brainstorm possibilities. As such it makes for a good demo but it's not necessarily in context.
Click to expand...

It stands to reason that the tech demo will see conversion into a retail release though.
 
rpmurphy said:
AR looks as janky as on the 3DS, which is a little disappointing. Is this something that can be solved with software at the moment?
Click to expand...
In PS3 looks better. Maybe it's just horsepower, or that these NGP/3DS game are still WIP.
 
gofreak said:
Same as the reserved SPU on PS3 I guess.
Click to expand...
Or on certain handhelds.

Luigiv said:
The PSP1000 has 32+2MB
Click to expand...
PSP had 32+4 (PS2 was 32+4+4), but PSP had a significant portion of memory reserved for OS like pretty much all recent consoles (PS2 only reserved 1MB in comparison).
 
DeaconKnowledge said:
It stands to reason that the tech demo will see conversion into a retail release though.
Click to expand...

And in the process different things will be firmed up or discarded.

Obviously any developer when they get a new machine like this is going to brainstorm and prototype different possibilities. Sony Bend has probably toyed with the stuff we've seen and a lot more besides, some of which won't see the cut (or even see the light of day in a demo like this).

This is just the impression I have from the reporting around these demos though - it seems it was impressed upon the audience that it was an 'out of context' demo just to show off what might be possible.

IGN has an article on it, and commentary on the aspects they like and don't like (i.e. they like the stuff that more or less doesn't interrupt your 'normal' handling, like the gyro swinging, aiming etc. and the spot touch stuff where it makes sense, like making a trace of an artifact, but don't like so much touching to jump over a log etc.) I more or less agree with their thoughts.
 
Fafalada said:
Or on certain handhelds.


PSP had 32+4 (PS2 was 32+4+4), but PSP had a significant portion of memory reserved for OS like pretty much all recent consoles (PS2 only reserved 1MB in comparison).
Click to expand...
Oops, right you are.Forgot about the PSP's media coprocessor and didn't realise the PS2 had dedicated Audio RAM and I/O RAM. Still point stands, the PSP didn't have more RAM then the PS2 when it was first released.
 
Wow, those slides are hilariously bland, but still have decent info.

20110302-16595675-ngp-img4820.jpg


What does "Single submission" mean?

EDIT:
20110302-16595675-ngp-img4844.jpg



....wow.
 
I really hope the touch controls are entirely optional. Watching engadgets video watching Uncharted, constantly switching from buttons to touch control to jump over logs, melee people and climb cliffs looked AWFUL imo.

Touch is great for minigames and used in very sparing situations but I hope you can simply press X to climb, jump over logs and melee people and what not.

Based on the slideshow engadget posted, I would say, it's pretty much confirmed that there won't be any internal memory.

I was hoping that it would come with an 8gb or 16gb nand flash card built in like the iPhone, but that seems to be a no go. The presentation repeatedly mentioned that games can be stored/downloaded onto either game card, or a removable storage card.
 
PhantomOfTheKnight said:
What does "Single submission" mean?
Click to expand...
It means that the developers just have to submit the game once for it to be approved for both physical and digital distribution. Also if you read between the lines, it also means that games will load and write in an identical fashion off both the retail cards and the storage cards.
 
Stephen Colbert said:
Based on the slideshow engadget posted, I would say, it's pretty much confirmed that there won't be any internal memory.
Click to expand...


........................

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, even the PSP Go had 16gb of memory. I'd even bite on the 3G version if that had internal memory. On second though, does the 3DS have any internal memory?
 
PhantomOfTheKnight said:
What does "Single submission" mean?
Click to expand...

I think it means when you submit a game that's going to be released on a game card, the same submission will handle its posting to the online store. With PSP there are separate submissions/processes, partially why some games get released on PSN and others don't.

Stephen Colbert said:
Based on the slideshow engadget posted, I would say, it's pretty much confirmed that there won't be any internal memory.

I was hoping that it would come with an 8gb or 16gb nand flash card built in like the iPhone, but that seems to be a no go. The presentation repeatedly mentioned that games can be stored/downloaded onto either game card, or a removable storage card.
Click to expand...

I think the bigger question is what if any storage card will come with the system. I hope a card of one size or another is included with every SKU so that on day one, at least, a separate purchase isn't necessary.
 
charlequin said:
Bill Of Materials is not at all the same as the back-to-front cost to produce a finished, shippable manufactured unit. The NGP also differs notably from the iPhone 4 in quite a few places -- it'll have (apparently) more and (definitely) much fancier RAM, a more expensive screen, chips that are likely to start at noticeably higher prices (no one else is featuring either their CPU or GPU in a quad-core design in 2011), etc. $300 price point for the lower-priced SKU, sold at a slight loss at launch (that quickly improves to a profit after being on sale for X months) is where I'd bet.
Click to expand...

Yes, that wasn't meant to be a comprehensive prediction of overall COGS, which I couldn't do even if they had actually released a parts list (although that isuppli estimate does include assembly, so it's not a true BOM). It was just to point out a possible ballpark, and to show that a somewhat reasonable price is not at all out of the question, without Sony taking a PS3-style bath (that actually is out of the question).

I might quibble with your cost analysis a bit, but I think we're in the same ballpark, and that's a good as it's likely to get.
 
On the slides, the real life treasure hunts sounds AWESOME.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you can set up a little treasure hunt of sorts in real world locations, for other people to download and then go on. Touring central park or a museum while playing on the NGP sounds awesome, though it'll make you look like a massive geek if you do it by yourself.
 
OneMoreQuestion said:
........................

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, even the PSP Go had 16gb of memory. I'd even bite on the 3G version if that had internal memory. On second though, does the 3DS have any internal memory?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, but I don't get the fuss over fixed internal memory anyway. It will have something akin to detatchable internal memory (seeing as the cards won't be usable on any other system)
 
Stephen Colbert said:
On the slides, the real life treasure hunts sounds AWESOME.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you can set up a little treasure hunt of sorts in real world locations, for other people to download and then go on. Touring central park or a museum while playing on the NGP sounds awesome, though it'll make you look like a massive geek if you do it by yourself.
Click to expand...

It sounds like it works like this - you can send a locked box with a game item/gift inside to a friend, then leave a key 'somewhere', and tell them to go find it to open the box.

20110302-16595675-ngp-img4869.jpg


20110302-16595675-ngp-img4868.jpg


I'm guessing you may also be able to leave down items for anyone to pick up in specific locations.

Sony or game developers could also put out perhaps more substantial gifts in specific locations for people to find. For example when a new PSN game is out, they could put some codes out there for people to find to promote the game or whatever (i.e. codes that can be redeemed for a copy of the game).
 
gofreak said:
It sounds like it works like this - you can send a locked box with a game item/gift inside to a friend, then leave a key 'somewhere', and tell them to go find it to open the box.

20110302-16595675-ngp-img4869.jpg


20110302-16595675-ngp-img4868.jpg


I'm guessing you may also be able to leave down items for anyone to pick up in specific locations.

Sony or game developers could also put out perhaps more substantial gifts in specific locations for people to find. For example when a new PSN game is out, they could put some codes out there for people to find to promote the game or whatever (i.e. codes that can be redeemed for a copy of the game).
Click to expand...
will leave key in girl's bathroom.
 
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