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[Audioboxer]

A couple of other thoughts. Who would even lead the pro-Union campaign in this referendum? Ruth Davidson is probably the most effective Scottish politician outside of the SNP, but I can hardly see her appealing to supporters of the other parties. Darling's in the Lords now, and Brown left front line politics, so I don't see either of them wanting to lead the campaign.

Also, should the SNP win the campaign for Independence before the final vote about Brexit in Westminster is taken, May would have such large majority that she'd be able to force through any kind of deal.

Davidson still takes a page from the passive-aggressive put-downs seen throughout the Tory party, so while she can be reasonable she gets bees rattling in bonnets, even up here. She finds it hard to talk compassionately about remain, giving how Scotland voted, and that often goes down like a led balloon, like any Tory would standing preaching to a nation that voted remain, now is the time for unity.

May is May and she is going to be a disaster in the North. Cameron is probably liked more than her. Someone might say attempt to airlift in Tony Blair, but that would be a backfire of massive proportions. Sadiq Khan tasted hot fire with some of his recent remarks, and even Corbyn has backpedalled the other day to say indyref2 would be 'okay'.

It'll probably be down to JK Rowling, David Beckham and other celebrities to try and pander to the voters, and of course the Daily Mail to rattle on some fear campaigns. It does look slim pickings for BetterTogether, hence why the Spain card is being used as much as possible right now. Plant that seed as ingrained as best as they can Scotland cannot get into the EU at all, no matter what.

I'm not arguing against Scotland becoming independent, which you don't really seem to understand, probably because you find it easier to see the world in those terms. I'm saying that if you are going to argue for independence, for an issue of that magnitude, you need to be utterly committed to honesty about what the future will look like in the world of independence. Any argument for independence that makes some reference to joining the EU is an argument from dishonesty or ignorance, and deeply insulting to the entire debate.

When you're talking about independence, the worlds you're comparing are the status quo versus a world where Scotland is an independent country that has moderately close ties to the EU (as close as you can get without being in EFTA, so a few shades above Canada), very tight trade relations with the UK that probably extend to bilateral product regulations and taxation agreements to prevent beggar-thy-neighbour, uses the Scottish pound which would fluctuate quite closely in synch with the British pound, has an economy mostly revolving around export to the rUK, would have a smaller government expenditure than it does at the moment due to the Scottish deficit sustained by the rUK, would have to spend more money on the military than it currently does to meet NATO minimum requirements, and so on.

These aren't necessarily downsides overall. They might be worth having government policy that more closely matches the average Scottish voter, or the ability to set immigration independently of the rUK, or whatever. But you need to justify that. And right now, you're just having a dishonest debate, because I don't see you talking about these realities.

It's deeply insulting to your debate, where you all of a sudden do not want people being humans, but robots ONLY caring about spreadsheets. That is fantasy, not real life. The question of it being tough financially is an important one, but sometimes there comes a point where people are looking at TWO very difficult financial paths and begin to look at OTHER pros and cons of each. Of which, social ideologies come into the fray. How do you want the world to look at you, how do you want to look at yourself, how do you want your kids to see your country, etc. This is where hard work and motivation can play a part, as do not underestimate motivated and enthusiastic people in hard times to get through them and come out prospering.

I'm sorry, but you're not turning a whole nation into robots, and your attempts to call anyone like me dishonest, deeply insulting or any other buzzword is indeed what will lose campaigns on a larger scale. Especially when my positions are not coming from backgrounds of xenophobia or fear of immigrants.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Are you the arbitrator that states 100% those are the only options? As this sounds very like your own "Audioboxer gotcha" scenario, with you throwing in the Blair snark to boot.

I mean, there's a third option which is 'no trade deals with anyone at all', but otherwise, yes, those are the only options. As an EU member, you can't have bilateral trade deals with non-EU member states. It's like, right in the rules. I'm not saying that, the 27 EU member states and the various treaties involved are.

Out of your two procured choices, probably joining the EU. Happy? It doesn't change anything else I've said answering your demand. If that's the way you want it framed in the bettetogether campaign, prepare to lose, badly.

I'm not arguing against Scotland becoming independent, which you don't really seem to understand, probably because you find it easier to see the world in those terms. I'm saying that if you are going to argue for independence, for an issue of that magnitude, you need to be utterly committed to honesty about what the future will look like in the world of independence. Any argument for independence that makes some reference to joining the EU is an argument from dishonesty or ignorance, and deeply insulting to the entire debate.

When you're talking about independence, the worlds you're comparing are the status quo versus a world where Scotland is an independent country that has moderately close ties to the EU (as close as you can get without being in EFTA, so a few shades above Canada), very tight trade relations with the UK that probably extend to bilateral product regulations and taxation agreements to prevent beggar-thy-neighbour, uses the Scottish pound which would fluctuate quite closely in synch with the British pound, has an economy mostly revolving around export to the rUK, would have a smaller government expenditure than it does at the moment due to the Scottish deficit sustained by the rUK, would have to spend more money on the military than it currently does to meet NATO minimum requirements, and so on.

These aren't necessarily downsides overall. They might be worth having government policy that more closely matches the average Scottish voter, or the ability to set immigration independently of the rUK, or whatever. But you need to justify that. And right now, you're just having a dishonest debate, because I don't see you talking about these realities.

 

[klonere]

So this Conversative government looks like it could lose both Scotland and Northern Ireland? Maggie hangs her head in despair.

 

[nelsonroyale]

So this Conversative government looks like it could lose both Scotland and Northern Ireland? Maggie hangs her head in despair.

She's gone but much of her nasty legacy remains.

Crab: Well you discuss the 'potential' (because obviously they are not actualised, just some potential likiloods) dangers, the 'potential' benefits are also not to difficult to imagine. Firstly, at least in principal the Scottish establishment is committed to public services in a way that contrasts drastically with the Tories. In the UK, the public services are under 'existential' threat, rather than just fiscal threat. The latter is of course more dangerous, since it constantly seeks to undermine them. Remember that the state of public services in England has been partially engineered by a Tory government that constantly seeks to undermine and discredit them. In Scotland, this is less likely to be the case. That is a big deal, if more emphasis is on public services, even within a reduced national budget, more attention might be paid to these areas, less elsewhere. There are many other issues that Scotland needs to work through - energy, land reform, conservation - the argument, which I find rather convincing given the context of the times, is that an independent Scotland provides a better platform for at least engaging with these issues rather than in the UK. As to EU membership, that may take time, and if that is the case it will have to be tolerated. The EU has a lot of problems and it shouldn't be the sole determinent of independence one way or the other. It is fairly obvious that the EU is going to have to go through some substantial reform over the coming years as well, because a Fortress Europe future is as about as unattractive as a Brexit Britain...

 

[Juicy Bob]

Can you remember when Britain wasn't a colossal skip fire?

 

[Anoregon]

Good luck, Scotland. If, as seems pretty clear, it is in the best interests and the majority desire of the country to remain in the EU, you should absolutely be able to exercise that desire. The current government in England certainly doesn't appear to give a shit about what the Scottish people want, so fuck em.

 

[gun_haver]

I'm happy to see the referendum has been called - something has to be done in response to the Brexit vote, and also the way it is being implemented by the UK government so far.

One thing I've noticed recently is that the anti-Scottish Independence parties and people have been starting with this comparison of the SNP to nationalist parties within sovereign nations and comparing a desire for independence to forms of racism.

It's probably a smart tactic to try and divide the voters like that, especially the left wing Yes voters, who might pause and think 'wait a minute are we being racist by leaving the UK???'.

However, it's a lie. A national party in a country that is governed by another is completely different from one which governs itself. The SNPs policies and rhetoric are entirely against any forms of right-wing nationalism that you might see in places like the USA and England.

The rest of the UK parties really don't have much of an argument to make with the situation being what it is, so they're going to double down on this 'divisive', 'ugly', and comparing the SNP to nationalist parties who are racist.

Shame they went with Scottish National Party all those years ago. It confuses people.

 

[In Service]

How are you feeling about Britain's economy going forward? It looks like it is massively cutting it's nose off to spite it's face. Real talk of the Tories leaving the EU WITHOUT a deal would be truly disastrous for us all, and any hopes of an advantageous deal for the UK seem slim. An independence vote for me is now seeking to make the best of a bad situation and setting us up to be in the best position we can be in a few years from now once the dust has settled. The UK is not the world powerhouse economy it seems to think it is. Scotland can be a self-sufficient decently wealthy economy, while I'm sure many will argue against me mentioning deficits (which we have not actually had any control over, look to Westminster for mismanagement of our huge oil wealth for the past 30 years) etc.

Britain's economy is in for a rough ride. There's no doubt about that. I voted to remain on that basis and the fact that the worst hasn't happened yet hasn't made me feel any easier about it.

Scotland is in an entirely different position to the rest of the Union if it goes it alone. 63% of exports go to the rest of the UK, 16% to the EU and 21% to the rest of the world.

That makes a deal with the UK more economically important to trade then a deal with the EU. 84% of Scotlands trade doesn't need direct access to the Single Market.

I wont mention the deficit much because the figures are even more complex. Even if it is correct that the oil stocks have been mismanaged though, are you looking for a refund to help with the deficit?

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

I think you're reading that statement too literally. Sure, with independence you have the right to use any currency you want, but why become independent to secede all fiscal control to a country that has no obligation to recognise your needs and desires?



Both countries were members of the EU ahead of the creation of the Euro, as I wrote.

The Czech Republic joined in 2004, they keep their Crown. Poland, Croatia, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria also have their own currencies, they all joined in 2004.
True, they are supposed to adopt it eventually, but there they are.

 

[Audioboxer]

So this Conversative government looks like it could lose both Scotland and Northern Ireland? Maggie hangs her head in despair.

It's arguably partly Maggies fault Scotland detests the Tories and has the divide fuelled between the North and Westminster.

If anything Thatcher is somewhat to blame for where we are today.

 

[nelsonroyale]

I'm happy to see the referendum has been called - something has to be done in response to the Brexit vote, and also the way it is being implemented by the UK government so far.

One thing I've noticed recently is that the anti-Scottish Independence parties and people have been starting with this comparison of the SNP to nationalist parties within sovereign nations and comparing a desire for independence to forms of racism.

It's probably a smart tactic to try and divide the voters like that, especially the left wing Yes voters, who might pause and think 'wait a minute are we being racist by leaving the UK???'.

However, it's a lie. A national party in a country that is governed by another is completely different from one which governs itself. The SNPs policies and rhetoric are entirely against any forms of right-wing nationalism that you might see in places like the USA and England.

The rest of the UK parties really don't have much of an argument to make with the situation being what it is, so they're going to double down on this 'divisive', 'ugly', and comparing the SNP to nationalist parties who are racist.

Shame they went with Scottish National Party all those years ago. It confuses people.

Yeah, I don't really like the name either. Not much of a fan of nationalism to be honest. Or at least, not in the current political climate. It might be better if countries didn't mostly act like collective arseholes...

 

[Stinkles]

She should have waited to see if the UK gets fucked after brexit before calling the referendum . If things do turn out well for the UK that could be the end for her.

Um, the people of Scotland want England to prosper. In fact and independent Scotland would require that. Independence is about self determination and freedom of movement within the EU, not Schadenfreude.

So this Conversative government looks like it could lose both Scotland and Northern Ireland? Maggie hangs her head in despair.

Margaret Thatcher threw Scotland, northern Ireland and the north of England under a bus of her own privatization. Margaret Thatcher is 100% responsible for the nascent strength of the SNP to begin with.

 

[GRaider81]

Will see what happens in the next couple of years but I'm still a no.

When it comes down to it I feel being part of the U.K. Is more beneficial than being part of the EU but I'd prefer both.

Silver lining to independence would be hopefully people start taking the SNP to account regarding their utterly shambolic running of Scotland.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Isn't the UK more important to the Scottish economy than Europe? :s

 

[Audioboxer]

Will see what happens in the next couple of years but I'm still a no.

When it comes down to it I feel being part of the U.K. Is more beneficial than being part of the EU but I'd prefer both.

Silver lining to independence would be hopefully people start taking the SNP to account regarding their utterly shambolic running of Scotland.

It's not perfect, but where in the rUK is it much better? To suggest utterly shambolic I'd expect receipts that show us light years behind everyone else.

But yeah, a silver lining would indeed be us hopefully having a Scottish Conservative and Labour party that isn't simply an extension of the rUK. But two parties that listen to and are running for the Scottish people. The reason the two of them fail is they appear as puppets for whoever is the real leader in Westminster.

 

[DavidDesu]

Britain's economy is in for a rough ride. There's no doubt about that. I voted to remain on that basis and the fact that the worst hasn't happened yet hasn't made me feel any easier about it.

Scotland is in an entirely different position to the rest of the Union if it goes it alone. 63% of exports go to the rest of the UK, 16% to the EU and 21% to the rest of the world.

That makes a deal with the UK more economically important to trade then a deal with the EU. 84% of Scotlands trade doesn't need direct access to the Single Market.

I wont mention the deficit much because the figures are even more complex. Even if it is correct that the oil stocks have been mismanaged though, are you looking for a refund to help with the deficit?

Lol, it would be nice, but no. I just say that as an example of mismanagement of Scotland's assets which largely benefited the UK finances as a whole rather than Scotland's itself, for decades, and see far more of that to come in Brexit UK under the uber right-wing Tories.

As for your trade comments.. sure we trade massively across the UK. We trade massively as the whole UK with the EU, but Brexit will now make that a more difficult situation with more hoops to jump through. Ultimately though trade is not going to cease between Scotland and the UK, as it will not cease between the UK and EU. To say that it will is to say that we will ALL pay heavily as a result. Also when considering England needs Scottish water and energy, even more so in the climate change future with global tensions over energy etc, a strong Scot/England energy link will be vital. I can't see any sane politicians on any side of the debate just saying No to sane common sense deals. Do you?

There's plans afoot for energy pipelines between the UK and Europe and directly between Scotland and Norway.Scotland has huge potential to "trade" energy with the EU and we have huge potential in our renewables sector. It's not all doom and gloom. Again though none of this would be happening were it not for Brexit, and as Alex Salmond just said on the BBC, a narrow Leave vote in England is forcing Scotland out of the EU against a strong Remain vote in Scotland itself. If this can occur then Scotland truly has no power or influence whatsoever in this union and on such an important issue if it can be overridden here then there's nothing Scotland will have power over in future if we remain in. That's important too.

 

[Veidt]

Can you remember when Britain wasn't a colossal skip fire?

June 22 2016.

 

[ghst]

last year has been a killer advert for ideologically driven severance of political unions. can see why a neutral body like the SNP would go in for this.

 

[DavidDesu]

Isn't the UK more important to the Scottish economy than Europe? :s

Being a sovereign nation that can actually reflect what the people want is also important don't you think? Isn't that what Brexit itself is about? If the economy is all that matters we should be staying in the EU, full stop, and the Tories would and should have never had an EU referendum in the first place. But IMMIGRANTS(!!!!)...

A country with left leaning tendencies and socially progressive has had to put up with Tories chasing after UKIP voters and taking the UK down an ever darker path. Spying on citizens, cosying up to the US and invading other nations against UN regulations, selling weapons to human rights abusing regimes in the Middle East, actively bringing the NHS down from the inside so it can be privatised, and so on and so forth.

None of this happens because of anything Scottish voters have done. In the last GE we returned 96% of our MP's as SNP. Even if we'd returned 100% Labour instead the Tories would still have had a majority. There's no hope to see our nation reflect who we are until we gain full sovereignty over our own affairs, and we finally once and for all actually directly elect the parties who fully make the decisions for us, rather than getting what England votes for.


Edited cos the last sentence was borked, lol.

 

[Stinkles]

last year has been a killer advert for ideologically driven severance of political unions. can see why a neutral body like the SNP would go in for this.

Scottish independence is being driven by opposite ideology and politics from other independence movements. We want to drop right wing baggage and reintegrate.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

But yeah, a silver lining would indeed be us hopefully having a Scottish Conservative and Labour party that isn't simply an extension of the rUK. But two parties that listen to and are running for the Scottish people. The reason the two of them fail is they appear as puppets for whoever is the real leader in Westminster.

I think this is actually already happening, to a reasonable extent. Scottish Labour are definitely separate of UK main office at this point. They were drifting that way for some time under Ed Miliband, but Corbyn has accelerated the process because Corbyn's support demographics (enthusiastic idealists), in Scotland, vote SNP and don't really exist in the Scottish Labour Party to Corbynize it, so while the national Labour Party has been Corbynized, the Scottish Labour Party has remained somewhat more centrist and has only made tentative steps leftward. There's very definitely no puppeting of Kezia by Corbyn; her problems are her own.

 

[Audioboxer]

I think this is actually already happening, to a reasonable extent. Scottish Labour are definitely separate of UK main office at this point. They were drifting that way for some time under Ed Miliband, but Corbyn has accelerated the process because Corbyn's support demographics (enthusiastic idealists), in Scotland, vote SNP and don't really exist in the Scottish Labour Party to Corbynize it, so while the national Labour Party has been Corbynized, the Scottish Labour Party has remained somewhat more centrist and has only made tentative steps leftward. There's very definitely no puppeting of Kezia by Corbyn; her problems are her own.

Corbyn is still being Corbyn

 

[CCS]

Can someone with a better memory than me remind me what was said last time about Scottish citizenship? Was born in England but my mum's Scottish born and bred and I wonder if I'd be able to get it in the case of independence.

 

[Veidt]

Corbyn is a calamity.
Calamity Corbyn is what they should call him.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Will see what happens in the next couple of years but I'm still a no.

When it comes down to it I feel being part of the U.K. Is more beneficial than being part of the EU but I'd prefer both.

Silver lining to independence would be hopefully people start taking the SNP to account regarding their utterly shambolic running of Scotland.

In comparison to the rest of the UK? Hardly...

As for being part of the UK or EU, it depends on political allignment. For instance, being part of the EU may not conflict quite as much with the general trajectory of Scottish politics, as compared to being part of the UK.

In terms of Corbyn, he might actually privately support Scotland going independent, given his politics. And I am fine with that. Given the opinion within his party, they will oppose it, but he said they won't oppose if it gets through to Westminster (in terms of their being a referendum). So I am alright with that.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Corbyn is still being Corbyn

Right, but that's a very different problem altogether, and very much not one restricted to Scotland, alas.

 

[Dougald]

Corbyn is still being Corbyn

I'd be convinced Corbyn was a Tory plant, but that would be giving the Conservatives far too much credit. The man is just pathetic at this point

 

[Audioboxer]

Right, but that's a very different problem altogether, and very much not one restricted to Scotland, alas.

Well, I did point out earlier comparisons between Salmond and Corbyn. Two men with some decent principles, but not leaders. Eject Salmond, insert Sturgeon, reshuffle some of the MPs, and rise to 56 seats out of 59. Of course that was down to other reasons as well, but partly about putting in a competent leader.

I'd be convinced Corbyn was a Tory plant, but that would be giving the Conservatives far too much credit. The man is just pathetic at this point

He'll have been burnt by his own party saying that, or anything resembling it, and will then be trying to backpedal. I mean, I don't envy Labour trying to balance feelings down South and then coming up here and trying to rally up support. However, there are ways to be compassionate to voters up here that don't involve being passive-aggressive (Khan and Davidson) or trying to play both sides. A little bit of compassion about Brexit would go a long way, even just some mincey words. It doesn't quite work to fire off STFU about indyref/Brexit, and by the way, now is the time for unity. Maybe try opening with unity, some words about how the country did go remain, but it is what it is, then okay, I'll understand there will be some rattling about anti-Scottish independence. At least try and do it last, don't lead with it, and don't compare Scottish nationalism to racism, bigotry and xenophobia. That's how you never get any votes swinging back your way.

 

[Pinkuss]

For Scotland I think leaving would be in their best interest sadly.

As a Brit I'm pretty worried about losing Scotland and all the left votes they bring to the table.

 

[nelsonroyale]

I'd be convinced Corbyn was a Tory plant, but that would be giving the Conservatives far too much credit. The man is just pathetic at this point

I find the Labour Party itself far more pathetic. Ideologically, it is riven. The Tories are shit, but they are mostly united around the concentration of power, maintaining established inequalities, privitisation etc - the stuff that matters to them - so they are not nearly as ideologically split as Labour. Brexit may be a case in point, but ultimately they value holding on to power, more than rocking the boat.

Pinkuss - That won't be helping too much since Labour has effectively zero chance of making a recovery in Scotland. I feel for you man, but it means that the left in England is going to have to get A LOT more active. In Scotland as well, but I feel a smaller platform makes it easier in principal...I feel smaller in London than I do in Edinburgh, that is for sure.

 

[Stinkles]

Can someone with a better memory than me remind me what was said last time about Scottish citizenship? Was born in England but my mum's Scottish born and bred and I wonder if I'd be able to get it in the case of independence.

Currently UK citizenship allows a native born parent to transmit one time, non transferable "citizenship by descent" and that would likely be the case for Scotland.

 

[Veidt]

i prefer this picture

Such a beautiful flag.
I wonder what the British flag will look like without that amazing Scottish part.

 

[CCS]

Currently UK citizenship allows a native born parent to transmit one time, non transferable "citizenship by descent" and that would likely be the case for Scotland.

Awesome, thank you very much.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Pinkuss - That won't be helping too much since Labour has effectively zero chance of making a recovery in Scotland. I feel for you man, but it means that the left in England is going to have to get A LOT more active. In Scotland as well, but I feel a smaller platform makes it easier in principal...I feel smaller in London than I do in Edinburgh, that is for sure.

The SNP are part of the reason for the British left being so weak, though. Firstly just because the left in Scotland has always been a strong intellectual well for Labour Party (I mean, both of the last two Labour Prime Ministers were Scottish), but secondly because the SNP are a great boogeyman for scaring working class British voters in England, who see themselves as British, and therefore see the SNP as a threat to their sense of identity. The SNP complaining about Labour weakness is fundamentally no different to the Conservatives complaining about the NHS weakness - they're the ones contributing to it and are very happy to see the situation continue because the worse it gets, the more they can achieve their ulterior ambitions.

 

[AuthenticM]

long live free Scotland

 

[Audioboxer]

Hey crab, my bro, time to sign the pledge <3

&#9997;&#65039; Our nation's future. Your choice. Sign the pledge in support of Scotland's referendum: http://www.ref.scot/pledge #ScotRef

Video from Sturgeon https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/841267088115269632

 

[CCS]

I've reversed my view from last time, I think Scotland should go for it. Sadly I don't have a vote, but my family up there have gone from being 50/50 to almost entirely in favour of independence.

 

[Jackpot]

Corbyn's clarification:

“I was asked if in Westminster we would block the holding of a referendum, I said ‘no’. If the Scottish parliament decided they wanted to have a referendum then it would be wrong for Westminster to block it.

“But just to be absolutely clear, I do not think there should be another referendum.”

Clear as mud.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Hey crab, my bro, time to sign the pledge <3



Video from Sturgeon https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/841267088115269632

I'm not David Cameron. I'm not going to support a referendum on an issue of incredibly high impact and immense complexity which most people don't understand and has deep emotive appeal that is incredibly conducive to lies. If I was in Westminster I wouldn't vote against a referendum, because whether one happens is something only Holyrood should decide, but if I was in Holyrood, I would definitely be voting against.

 

[nekkid]

It's certainly a brave move. If it's another "no" then she's gone.

Also, given what happened with what a mess the EU Referendum ended up being, I can't believe anybody in Scotland truly thinks this is a good idea.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Corbyn's clarification:



Clear as mud.

He's terrible at explaining it, but his stance is actually right. One can say that it would be a bad idea to do something, but the decision is fundamentally someone else's to make and should be respected. I mean, I say that. There shouldn't be a Scottish referendum. But that's for Holyrood to decide; a national politician shouldn't interfere even knowing it would be a bad idea because it isn't their decision to make.

 

[Camp Freddie]

The biggest problem for a post-Brexit EU-Scotland would be freedom of movement. And currency of course.

The UK won't accept freedom of movement with the EU, so getting a cross-border job and moving would be as difficult as moving to France (minus the language).

 

[ReplacementPelican]

Its always odd to me how romanticized Scottish nationalism is to a lot of people.

I understand people are worried because of Brexit but it seems like many of the arguments are exactly the same: 'freedom', 'sovereignty', 'having our affairs voted on by people far away'. Yet people seem all for this, is it purely because they've gone the route of blaming England and Wales for Brexit?

That may be your logic but the SNP will really grab onto anything to keep having referendum if the Scottish choose the wrong answer. At least there's a slight argument for it this time. Honestly, Brexit is probably the best thing that could have happened for the SNP.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Rediculous amount of leave eu voters on twitter pissing and complaining about a second indy ref.

 

[Acorn]

What about the Shetland islands, though. Surely enough any clear thinking Briton treasures their fabulous ponies.

We'll take the ponies to aberdeen.

They love animals &#128521;

 

[Walshicus]

Good for her. Every success to them!

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm not David Cameron. I'm not going to support a referendum on an issue of incredibly high impact and immense complexity which most people don't understand and has deep emotive appeal that is incredibly conducive to lies. If I was in Westminster I wouldn't vote against a referendum, because whether one happens is something only Holyrood should decide, but if I was in Holyrood, I would definitely be voting against.

It was some banter.

Rediculous amount of leave eu voters on twitter pissing and complaining about a second indy ref.

If you want a some cringy "laughs", follow the Sturgeon abuse Twitter

https://twitter.com/SturgeonAbuse

Ironically, a lot of it comes from outside of Scotland.

 

[Acorn]

Lmao@irony from May's statement.

 

[Dougald]

Rediculous amount of leave eu voters on twitter pissing and complaining about a second indy ref.

"We wanted the British government in Westminster to have full control of our laws without working with other member states in the EU Parliament"

"How dare Scotland want to have full control of their laws without working with MPs from other countries in the British Parliament"

Of course I'm not saying Brexit is the same as Scottish Independence, but Leave.EU voters complaining about it is amusing.

 

[Veidt]

Its always odd to me how romanticized Scottish nationalism is to a lot of people.

I understand people are worried because of Brexit but it seems like many of the arguments are exactly the same: 'freedom', 'sovereignty', 'having our affairs voted on by people far away'. Yet people seem all for this, is it purely because they've gone the route of blaming England and Wales for Brexit?

That may be your logic but the SNP will really grab onto anything to keep having referendum if the Scottish choose the wrong answer. At least there's a slight argument for it this time.

From a non-british perspective; seems to be the case that England is a conservative country. Politically, the Scottish have fundamentally different views when it comes to voting. That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but it really doesn't look like Scotland's views and votes are considered on a national scale at all.

This alone is a good enough reason to hold a referendum.