BRocknRolla
Member
This pairs really nicely with the "Arm Chair Analysis" thread that's also going on. I wonder which one will have more posts?
(I don't wonder.)
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Nintendos Sad Struggle for Survival (The Atlantic)
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LordRaptor
Member
How come 360 sales only really took off with the launch of kinect then?
Manmademan
Member
that's not really true. the 360 took off once it was obvious the PS3 was $600. It outsold it handily in the US every year without too much of a problem.
Kinect gave the 360 a mid generation bump that knocked sales back up when usually they should have been declining though.
chart is a couple years old but still good. you can see where the 360 sales plateu a bit then bump up, that's when kinect launched.
Calm Mind
Member
You are not accounting for all the numerous hardware failures from Sony and Microsoft into your analysis.
LordRaptor
Member
Yes.
When the Wii reached the end of its lifespan, Sony and MS both saw boosts in sales, and it is at least plausible that those boosts were from consumers that had been brought into gaming by Nintendo with the Wii looking for a replacement console.
Which in and of itself tells a different story to a "360 and PS3 got their sales with REAL gamers!" narrative.
Manmademan
Member
On CONSOLE?
Sony has zero. Microsoft has one- (the OG Xbox) but that was their initial entry into the console market..and they still outsold the gamecube.
Handhelds are a different market entirely.
doubtful. The PS2 sold around 155 million, the Xbox sold about 24 million. The lifetime totals for the 360 and Ps3 aren't too far off from that combined figure, despite the 360 and PS3 being a lot more expensive than the PS2 was.
I don't see a whole lot of argument that the later buyers of the PS360 were "brought into gaming" by nintendo at all- especially since the games that actually sold on the Wii were nothing like the games that sold on the PS360
JustSomeone
Member
There is nothing sad about that.
They brought it on themselves
They brought it on themselves
CaviarMeths
Member
Now bump this thread in 10 years when The Atlantic announces that it's shutting down.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
If you mean whether it's time to play some Doom then yes, it is always time to play some Doom.
Manmademan
Member
The atlantic has been in business longer than Nintendo has. I think they'll be just fine.
Calm Mind
Member
foobarry81
Member
Gotta love how mainstream journalists keep discovering Nintendo for the very first time, and then decide to write nonsensical articles about it.
I mean.. this part...
So: basically casual mobile games just killed the entire games industry, because people only want to play Super Mario Run and thus consoles are inessential? What are Sony thinking releasing that PS4 Pro, right? They should focus on iOS too!
Also the article starts off with the premise that Nintendo has been going downhill since the Wii and DS. But seems oblivious about what happened before that. The N64 and GameCube eras weren't Nintendo's greatest either. But they turned that around through innovation. They created a new market for themselves. But that is a concept this journalist apparently is unfamiliar with.
I mean.. this part...
So: basically casual mobile games just killed the entire games industry, because people only want to play Super Mario Run and thus consoles are inessential? What are Sony thinking releasing that PS4 Pro, right? They should focus on iOS too!
Also the article starts off with the premise that Nintendo has been going downhill since the Wii and DS. But seems oblivious about what happened before that. The N64 and GameCube eras weren't Nintendo's greatest either. But they turned that around through innovation. They created a new market for themselves. But that is a concept this journalist apparently is unfamiliar with.
Into the Light
Banned
Question for Nintendo fans:
Are you aware of the stigma Nintendo has with Millenials?
Do they have a stigma?
For me personally (Gen X)
They just don't interest me and haven't since Gamecube.
Having the most powerful console interest me at my age. But I think graphics and gameplay are the most important thing, so Nintendo just doesn't, and have not really been on my radar for at least the last decade.
Does anyone else feel this way? That they are looked at as #3 despite trying to be different. (I have 0 interest in switch)
Just curious what you all think, because Nintendo seems lost to me. When they dropped out of the E3 conferences, and started focusing on hardware that always seems a generation behind power wise, they lost me.
Are you aware of the stigma Nintendo has with Millenials?
Do they have a stigma?
For me personally (Gen X)
They just don't interest me and haven't since Gamecube.
Having the most powerful console interest me at my age. But I think graphics and gameplay are the most important thing, so Nintendo just doesn't, and have not really been on my radar for at least the last decade.
Does anyone else feel this way? That they are looked at as #3 despite trying to be different. (I have 0 interest in switch)
Just curious what you all think, because Nintendo seems lost to me. When they dropped out of the E3 conferences, and started focusing on hardware that always seems a generation behind power wise, they lost me.
Suburban Thug
Member
No it wasn't, at least not in a market that mattered. Hasn't even been 20 years since release.
It is super sad to see tweets like this, just pathetic really:
#SuperMarioRun has reached 40 million downloads worldwide in just 4 days! Thanks for playing, everyone!
Only 40 million downloads? Fucking losers.
#SuperMarioRun has reached 40 million downloads worldwide in just 4 days! Thanks for playing, everyone!
Only 40 million downloads? Fucking losers.
While true, journalism in the US is far more volatile than the games industry.
Once again. Note to self: Don't exaggerate on a forum because people will mash reply instead of reading the rest of the thread.
LordRaptor
Member
Its probably just coincidence that both consoles bucked the historical peak then decline trends at exactly the moment they started actively courting that audience to create an extended generation, and only real gamers play with plastic guitars ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Manmademan
Member
This is false.
Remember this?
Or this?
Oh I see. are we pretending Nintendo never had hardware design problems?
Because I'm PRETTY SURE the NES had a rather severe design flaw with the push down mechanism that rendered games unplayable over time. Or were blinking blue screens and NES blowjobs not a thing?
NES had dust issues for sure, but it doesn't compare to RRoD or any of the laser issues PS1 and 2 had by any stretch.
CaviarMeths
Member
SinCityAssassin
Member
They're already putting Wild Arms and Parappa on Asia mobile. It's too late for them.
2021: "WHY DOES ZELDA ON PS5 REQUIRE MOVE CONTROLLER?!?!?! WHY IS IT STILL CARTOON-Y!?!?!?!?!
Octavianus
Banned
Sad!
Every day is doomsday.
SeanIfOnly
Neo Member
I can see why many people feel this way. The WiiU was a misstep, 3DS did not sell as well as expected and the NES Classic shipping issue is a massive mistake. At the same time the copy appears to be on a better track. They are diversifying their efforts by getting into films and theme parks, helping build up the characters. Their mobile efforts have done well and the Switch (despite the cry for lack of power) is tracking quite well. People also forget how much money Nintendo has in reserve. Overall they are a healthy company, and they look to be correcting the ship.
Manmademan
Member
I don't see how you get that out of that chart. the curves for both are pretty standard, there's no correlation with nintendo's steep drop off and the peak of the PS360.
to create an extended generation, and only real gamers play with plastic guitars ¯\_(ツ
forgot that Guitar Hero started on PS2 in 2005, did you?
Suburban Thug
Member
Honestly this is how all of my non-enthusiast friends feel too. I know the 20-something neogaf crowd is going to scoff at this notion but they live in a bubble. For example, when I went away to college (USA) in 2008 everybody had Xbox 360 and to a lesser extent PS3, but nobody except me bothered bringing a Wii. I was seriously the only person in my all male Freshman dorm with one. You saw plenty of Nintendo 64s for late night beerio kart marathons, but hardly anybody had a DS or current gen Nintendo hardware. This is purely anecdotal evidence but most people I've talked to that don't visit message boards and argue to the death over resolution/frame rate view Nintendo as "kiddy" and something they have simply outgrown. I think Nintendo is aware of this which is why the Switch reveal video featured millennials using their console in absurd situations, like a roof top party or next to a basketball court.
Foxtastical
Member
Nintendo am doomed articles have been boring to read since the Gamecube days.
However, Bogost wrote this. I'll give it a chance at the very least.
However, Bogost wrote this. I'll give it a chance at the very least.
LordRaptor
Member
No, I'm pretty sure a sizable portion of the PS2 audience were also dirty casuals with their eyetoys their buzzes and their singstars, which also goes against this narrative where we brag about PS2 sales as 'counting' because its all real gamers
Suburban Thug
Member
I've been reading the thread since page one but waited until I saw somebody post something too ridiculous to pass up replying to. Maybe add a /s or italics if you want to make hyperbolic statements instead of assuming I'm some neanderthal "mashing the reply button"
Manmademan
Member
That wasn't a dust issue. the push down mechanism on the NES destroyed the pins over time. The failure rate on an original NES unit is 100%, depending on how often it got used.
This is why the NES2 was a top down insert unit like the SNES.
the RROD were warranty replacements- there were little if any impact on actual sales figures, and PS2 DRE errors could be fixed easily by the user with canned air or a lens adjustment- the later PS2 models weren't prone to it at all.
If the implication is that Sony only hit 100M units because people were replacing failed hardware, that doesn't hold up. The PS3 is sony's most expensive and worst selling hardware- and that system wasn't anywhere NEAR as prone to issues as the PS1 or PS2 original models were- but still ended up somewhere between 85-90M units- FAR past every console nintendo has made sans the Wii.
now you're just going off the rails. The business model of the PS (and Xbox) consoles relies largely on traditional gamers that Sony and MS know how to retain. there may very well have been casuals playing singstar and guitar hero on PS2, but those gamers all stuck around for the PS3 and 360.
That's not really the case for the Wii- those gamers it brought in weren't retained, and there was a steep decline in Wii sales right around the time the Iphone launched and smartphone gaming took off.
DarkConfidant
Member
Good read. It's negative, but that's completely alright. They made good points. I hope Nintendo finds a consistent niche that keeps them prominent but not just another Sony or Microsoft.
NoctisVsStar
Member
I agree with this, only time I see Nintendo hardware at least within inner circle if someone wants to play MK64 or Smash bros to remember the old days or when I visit one of my friends and their children are playing . My peers view it has the "kiddy" safe console since they won't come across the gta and cod's of the world. Plenty of people have outgrown Nintendo which is kinda a shame really.
My thoughts are this:
Nintendo is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Let's address the gaming populace first. Lets say Nintendo does in fact make a powerful system, perhaps the most powerful system that will take years for Sony or Microsoft to top. Will that be enough to move Sony/Microsoft's player base to Nintendo's ecosystem? Take that a step further, and they decide to do this two generations in a row. Will that bring Sony and Microsoft fans? Undoubtedly, if Nintendo follows this simple plan the 3rd parties will come, correct? The thing is, though, it will never be enough to pull the gaming community away from the ecosystems they have always invested in...which leads to stigmas.
Nintendo, on top of the kiddie stigma that has followed them for years, had to fight the stigma that they are nothing more than a secondary machine. Having the most powerful machine only means that NINTENDO games look better, because the 3rd party games they Nintendo would hypothetically get would be passed on in favor of their primary console. We see it here all the time "I only buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games." I highly doubt that mindset would change for these people if Nintendo started to throw cash around for the sake of powerful machines: they simply haven't invested in Nintendo to create a catalog on their shelves. That's reserved for Sony/PC/Microsoft.
The only answer would for them to embrace this and hopefully hit a home run with the people who do not live on GAF...but just look for cheap/entertaining tech...when ignorance is bliss.
Into the Light
Banned
Oh boy. :/
I don't think the article really gets into enough breadth to make its argument cohesive, but I do think people have been adequately and rightly predicting Nintendo's problem for years now—they are increasingly relying on nostalgia and older gamers instead of proving their relevance. Pokemon Go and Super Mario Run feel like games Nintendo themselves should be making and should have been making for years before this.
The article points out that Nintendo's shareware-like model for Super Mario Run is bizarre to mobile consumers raised on microtransactions and freemium games, and in another reality where Nintendo embraced phones they could have successfully ported that business model to phones and we'd have probably all been better off for it.
In many ways the Switch seems like the perfect idea—merge their handheld and console business together to avoid cannibalizing themselves any more, save R&D costs, and have a unified platform that has become more and more appealing with the rise of "play anywhere" schemes and the like—but I'm afraid that they might have just hurt both sides of the business by creating a jack of all trades that is fundamentally worse than the two products it's aiming to replace. Time will tell.
I definitely understand the "you were never gonna' buy a Nintendo console/handheld" dismissals from people when "Nintendo has to do this" articles come up. But Nintendo has consistently decided to never make a console or handheld that's worth me buying. People here live in an enthusiast's bubble when they say "if you really want to play their games just buy their console." Nintendo's ability to even command that kind of "yeah our game ecosystem sucks aside from our first party stuff, but you'll buy it for that first-party stuff alone" sort of power is only going to keep diminishing if they can't figure out a way out of the hole they are digging. The good news is they have plenty of time and money to figure it out.
If they're gonna' do it, it's going to take years at this point, you're right. Because they're going to be fighting against decades of inertia that they've built up. Right now, it's not just games like Halo that wed me to the XB1, for example—it's the ecosystem MS has smartly built up with backwards compatibility and W10, which will only continue to strengthen if they continue on their path. It makes it much less appealing to switch to Nintendo as my primary console even if the power is there because while the power might be there day one, third party support and the ecosystem take time to establish.
It's also worth pointing out I've been burned in the past by how ridiculously painful Nintendo's games are at treating online interaction, and it's something that I think also works against them. Plenty of people remember that they had Wii friend codes years after Microsoft wrote the manual for online multiplayer. They still seem to be playing catch-up in certain areas years after everyone else figured it out.
The article points out that Nintendo's shareware-like model for Super Mario Run is bizarre to mobile consumers raised on microtransactions and freemium games, and in another reality where Nintendo embraced phones they could have successfully ported that business model to phones and we'd have probably all been better off for it.
In many ways the Switch seems like the perfect idea—merge their handheld and console business together to avoid cannibalizing themselves any more, save R&D costs, and have a unified platform that has become more and more appealing with the rise of "play anywhere" schemes and the like—but I'm afraid that they might have just hurt both sides of the business by creating a jack of all trades that is fundamentally worse than the two products it's aiming to replace. Time will tell.
I definitely understand the "you were never gonna' buy a Nintendo console/handheld" dismissals from people when "Nintendo has to do this" articles come up. But Nintendo has consistently decided to never make a console or handheld that's worth me buying. People here live in an enthusiast's bubble when they say "if you really want to play their games just buy their console." Nintendo's ability to even command that kind of "yeah our game ecosystem sucks aside from our first party stuff, but you'll buy it for that first-party stuff alone" sort of power is only going to keep diminishing if they can't figure out a way out of the hole they are digging. The good news is they have plenty of time and money to figure it out.
If they're gonna' do it, it's going to take years at this point, you're right. Because they're going to be fighting against decades of inertia that they've built up. Right now, it's not just games like Halo that wed me to the XB1, for example—it's the ecosystem MS has smartly built up with backwards compatibility and W10, which will only continue to strengthen if they continue on their path. It makes it much less appealing to switch to Nintendo as my primary console even if the power is there because while the power might be there day one, third party support and the ecosystem take time to establish.
It's also worth pointing out I've been burned in the past by how ridiculously painful Nintendo's games are at treating online interaction, and it's something that I think also works against them. Plenty of people remember that they had Wii friend codes years after Microsoft wrote the manual for online multiplayer. They still seem to be playing catch-up in certain areas years after everyone else figured it out.
Dr. Feel Good
Banned
when you try and write a professional analysis of a company but delve into the life of "CliffyB" you've lost all credentials.
Article feels off on a lot of levels. Assuming Nintendo miscalculated demand on the NES Classic doesn't make sense given the companies past. Saying Super Mario Run doesn't make sense given Mario isn't running from something is also odd given the sheer number of other games that do this (Rayman) and is building gameplay around the limitations of hardware, not storyline being built around the limitations of hardware.
Super Mario Run also doesn't come off as a major change for the company... it's one of the safest things they could do as their first foray into mobile.
Article feels off on a lot of levels. Assuming Nintendo miscalculated demand on the NES Classic doesn't make sense given the companies past. Saying Super Mario Run doesn't make sense given Mario isn't running from something is also odd given the sheer number of other games that do this (Rayman) and is building gameplay around the limitations of hardware, not storyline being built around the limitations of hardware.
Super Mario Run also doesn't come off as a major change for the company... it's one of the safest things they could do as their first foray into mobile.
It's true though. From an outsider's perspective, Nintendo isn't doomed but they're a shadow of what they used to be compared to 2007. Tablets and smartphones came along and Nintendo couldn't keep up with them, nor could they keep up with console gaming with their limited hardware and third party support. The Switch only seems to be continuing that trend.
Into the Light
Banned
I want as much competition as possible, because I understand its health for the industry, so it pains me to see Nintendo's philosophy. That's really why I made that post.
CouchMaster
Member
What does "sad struggle" even mean? That its pathetic attempts to survive or that its sad that they're struggling?
Lmao wait till someone does a mental gymnastic and calls it a failure because it didn't surpass their previous handheld.
Lmao wait till someone does a mental gymnastic and calls it a failure because it didn't surpass their previous handheld.
Father_Brain
Banned
Uh... no shit? Any company whose primary business model becomes non-viable due to changing market conditions is going to have to drastically restructure.
Stating the obvious doesn't refute the point.
LordRaptor
Member
Last gen was literally the first time anyone decided that certain customers weren't any good and shouldn't be counted as customers anymore.
How about that 60+ million 3DS sales? And its software sales that didn't tank for the most part?
So is Xbox. How's their struggle for survival going? The headline is garbage.
Manmademan
Member
That isn't what the original poster that sparked this tangent ACTUALLY SAID though.
He said that the only time Nintendo hit (or got anywhere close to, really) the 100M unit mark was with the Wii- and that depended entirely on an audience nintendo doesn't have anymore.
This is completely true.
It's not a value judgment on those gamers, but observation that for whatever reason (you can blame smartphone competition, fads, bad marketing, etc) that audience left, and left quickly somewhere around 2011. They did not "go to the ps3 and 360" and there's no indication they did. growth from those two platforms aligns fairly well with the gamers who bought the Ps2 and Xbox, with some room for population growth and expansion into emerging markets.
Sony's strategy (and MS's to a lesser extent) rely around an audience that's a lot more reliable. There's no chance that PS4 sales just fall off a cliff 2 years from now with Sony wondering where all the gamers went.