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Nintendo 64 Vs. Sega Saturn

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Synth

Member
Done and done.

OP is kinda insane to even be making this comparison. They miss this gen entirely? PSX Vs N64 was a fierce battle and not as one sided as they believed. Saturn was a footnote at best :(

Had both PSX and N64 and spent 75% of my time on my N64.

Done and done, because people had no idea what was actually available on the Saturn? If you're arguing that one was more successful than the other, then sure.. that would be done and done (and not worth a discussion thread). If you're talking about the games they had though, it's nowhere near that simple.

As I said before, going by that logic, the Xbox One and PS4 had better games day one than the Wii U's entire library, because sales dictate it. I'm sure we both agree that would be a stupid metric to judge the console by, right?

Also, the PSX vs N64 was VERY one-sided. The PSX outperformed the N64 as much as the N64 outperformed the Saturn.
 

IrishNinja

Member
No contest on this one, the sales of the respective consoles speak for themselves as to which console was the better ...

ah, the sales-age argument, where nintendo wins, except when it's the wii, or some other caveat.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
If the Sega Saturn had games worthwhile to play, where were they and would we have honestly cared?

No one gave a shit about the system. People voted with their wallets, sales prove that. My friends and I were in college at the time of the Saturn/N64/PS1 release, we owned all the systems, and even the fucking 3DO managed more play time than the Saturn due to Road Rash.

Import this. Import that. Obscure anime art. Lack of retail presence. Short shelf life. The N64 offered plenty of options which were more than good enough. It easily had the best wrestling and sports games. The better co-op library. The better platformer library. RAREWARE. The Saturn wasn't even in the same zip code as the N64.

sorry you & your friends missed out, but again, sales = quality isn't an argument you should ever make unless you're a pop fan.

let me put this another way: 15+ years from now, when someone tells you "the PS3 was neat, but it was only god of war and uncharted games" and you want to talk about Demons Souls, Nier, Last of Us, Yakuza 4 etc and they spit the same kinda garbage response you posted here, i wonder if you'd appreciate the irony.

OP is kinda insane to even be making this comparison. They miss this gen entirely? PSX Vs N64 was a fierce battle and not as one sided as they believed

OP sadly tried to make this interesting but instead of classic gaming GAF, they apparently got a batch of people who played what they did, traded in everything & called it a day. either way, PSX was left out to keep this interesting - you're absolutely kidding yourself if you even think the N64's library came anywhere near what the Playstation had. leaving aside needless sales-age, PSX absolutely curbstomped both N64 & Saturn both, but especially the former in terms of library.
 
I am saying they were bad for a large portion of their existence... I'm not talking about the last 10 years from NOW (2004 to 2014) I'm talking about the last 10 years of their existence, let's just wrap this up saying I wasn't big on their games, and I'm arguing that they were always bad, especially going as far back as the NES era, but whatever. Even if their n64 output was above average, I wasn't a particular fan of theirs because I am judging their entire output for the lifespan of the company. Even if they were a solid publisher for the the duration of the n64 era, that's still a small fraction of their existence.
Your argument makes absolutely no sense first and foremost because their last ten years were by FAR their best years. They made many good and great games during this period -- look up the reviews of games like Turok 2, all three N64 All-Star Baseball games, Extreme-G, Extreme-G 2, Shadow Man, Iggy's 'Reckin Balls, Forsaken, Forsaken 64, Turok, Turok 3, and Turok Rage Wars. All of those are B or C-grade games by Metacritic or Gamerankings standards. The one with the highest score is, unsurprisingly, Turok 2, with an 88% average.

As I said their 6th gen stuff isn't quite as good as their N64 library, overall, but it still had some pretty good games in it, as I listed before.

It's the years BEFORE 1997 that Acclaim actually did have a mostly mediocre at best library.

I respect your opinion, I'm not going to tell you your tastes are wrong, at best I can only say that I wasn't a fan of their output.
Have you even played most of them? And anyway, reviews disagree with you -- it's not just me. Acclaim published quite a few decent to good N64 games. What did you play, only their mediocre wrestling, football, and South Park games?

In some ways I was kind of almost feeling it at first and liking it more than Tooie at least (though that's not saying), but jeez are there some serious issues with that game. I'll just leave it at saying that much of today was spent wandering around the terrible lighting of the factory and lagoon levels (this game is ungodly dark), and trying to deal with broken stuff like Beaver Bother and trying to take an underwater Banana Fairy picture through bars. But that's a story for another thread, once my friends and I manage to finish off the game.
Well, I never had a problem with the level designs in Rare N64 platformers, so yeah. I think they're well designed.

At the very least I can give Rare props for Goldeneye and Perfect Dark, though. I don't find them much fun nowadays just because the way controls have advanced makes them feel awkward, but I can definitely respect what they were, especially at the time of release.
Rare's N64 library is one of my favorites ever by a developer on a platform, so yeah, I disagree with you here for sure. Other than KI Gold, which I don't care for (never liked KI), the rest of Rare's N64 games are great at minimum. Nintendo, Rare, Midway, Acclaim... they're all important parts of why the N64 is my favorite console.

(Of course, I'm somewhat of a critic of Goldeneye; it was good at the time, sure, but I've never loved the game. It's good, sure, but so overrated...)
 

Synth

Member
sales = quality isn't an argument you should ever make unless you're a pop fan.

LOL!

To be fair though, it doesn't even work there. Robyn and Janelle Monae fans really get the short end of the stick, lol.

It basically only works as an argument when the data is in your favour... "N64 > Saturn because sales.. but it was a close run contest versus PS1!!".
 
If Sega has just waited a tiny bit and launched in November instead of May they would have never released with a broken version of VF and instead would have had VF Remix. They would have also had Sega Rally and Virtua Cop and probably an improved Panzer Dragoon. Then wait a bit until Daytona CCE instead of the terribly ugly (but well playing) original. Also drop the giant cases for proper jewel cases they would probably have dominated in the US. Also fix the damn logo. Why even change it from the Japanese one?

Oh, and price match to the PS1.
 

Synth

Member
If Sega has just waited a tiny bit and launched in November instead of May they would have never released with a broken version of VF and instead would have had VF Remix. They would have also had Sega Rally and Virtua Cop and probably an improved Panzer Dragoon. Then wait a bit until Daytona CCE instead of the terribly ugly (but well playing) original. Also drop the giant cases for proper jewel cases they would probably have dominated in the US. Also fix the damn logo. Why even change it from the Japanese one?

Oh, and price match to the PS1.

That's a whole lot of changes lol.

Daytona USA: CCE played like shit though. I consider it an insult to the franchise. However, I understand that they couldn't essentially release Daytona USA: Hi Spec after already releasing the original. So yea, if they had held off they could have had a game the looked like CCE whilst playing like Daytona USA... which would have been a big deal against Ridge Racer at the time.
 

Phediuk

Member
lol at arguing that N64>Saturn because it sold more, but then ignoring that the PS1 outsold the N64 by an even bigger margin. N64 vs. PS1 a close run? In what universe?

The cognitive dissonance in this topic is astounding.
 
That's a whole lot of changes lol.

Daytona USA: CCE played like shit though. I consider it an insult to the franchise. However, I understand that they couldn't essentially release Daytona USA: Hi Spec after already releasing the original. So yea, if they had held off they could have had a game the looked like CCE whilst playing like Daytona USA... which would have been a big deal against Ridge Racer at the time.

I don't think it is that many changes. They had to have known what was coming down the pipe and if they didn't they were brutally disorganized. A surprise no hype console launch at $400 fucked them and burnt retailer bridges. The launch games looked and performed like hell but a lot of it was fixed in less than 6 months which is insane. It is easy to see how much better Toshinden was than the original VF but compared to Remix it is a way harder call. Same for Ridge Racer vs Sega Rally, where SR looked better and offered more cars and tracks. VF2 was also out then as well and it ran in a crazy resolution for the time and at 60.

This giant jewel cases were terrible. Meant they shelf space was far less.

Wasn't the Japanese version of Daytona CCE released later and improved?

Sega had it all in the bag in terms of IP but they totally blew it.
 

Synth

Member
I don't think it is that many changes. They had to have known what was coming down the pipe and if they didn't they were brutally disorganized. A surprise no hype console launch at $400 fucked them and burnt retailer bridges. The launch games looked and performed like hell but a lot of it was fixed in less than 6 months which is insane. It is easy to see how much better Toshinden was than the original VF but compared to Remix it is a way harder call. Same for Ridge Racer vs Sega Rally, where SR looked better and offered more cars and tracks. VF2 was also out then as well and it ran in a crazy resolution for the time and at 60.

This giant jewel cases were terrible. Meant they shelf space was far less.

Wasn't the Japanese version of Daytona CCE released later and improved?

Sega had it all in the bag in terms of IP but they totally blew it.

I've never actually tried the Japanese version... I should look into it.

And yea, all the changes you said make sense, and I do think they should have been able to take the US coming off the Genesis (actually we need to add that the 32X can't be released). It's not that what you said sound in any way far-fetched, its more that it highlights just how many areas they fucked up on, lol.
 
Wasn't the Japanese version of Daytona CCE released later and improved?

yes, it was rushed out in time for Christmas for Europe, later an improved version for the US and then finally in Japan. Compare the features of the Japanese to the European version and you can clearly see how unfinished it was.

Happened quite a lot, the Japanese Touring Car plays better, not by much though.
 

kess

Member
However, if Sega HADN'T given up back in Spring 1997, things could have been entirely different. Look at how the Saturn sold a half million systems in the US in late 1996, and consider how much they could have sold between '97 and '99 ('97 and '98, particularly, since in Japan Sega stopped supporting it at the end of '98), when N64 and PS1 hardware sales peaked. Sure, they were certain to finish third, but they were NOT certain to sell only like one and a half million systems in the US!

Killing the Saturn torched the Dreamcast's chances in Japan. I always wondered how well Virtua Fighter 3 and Shenmue would have sold over there if they looked as good as they appeared to be.

Stolar purposely ignored RPGs and anime just as that market was catching fire. It's totally mind boggling. Oh and let's ignore these arcade perfect fighting games even though crippled ports sell in the hundreds of thousands on the Playstation.

Dude must have been a Sony sleeper agent
 

Weilthain

Banned
My Saturn broke on me on Christmas day. I remember being impressed with virtual fighter, Daytona racing Sega rally, virtual cop was cool as well.

N64 for me was just for Mario 64, Mario kart, goldeneye and Zelda.
 

kswiston

Member
Unless you really prefer Nintendo games over anything else, or were a younger gamer in that 1996-2000 period, I don't see how someone could say that N64 vs PSX was a close fight when looking at the systems' perspective libraries. The software drought that people are complaining about for the Wii U/PS4/XB1 right now was pretty much the status quo for the N64 that entire generation.
 
I just wanted to say that I really love the discussion going on in this thread. The 32-bit era is probably my favourite age of gaming history and I find the Saturn's role in it really fascinating.
 

BajiBoxer

Banned
I could only afford one console for that whole generation, and N64 was it. Those 3D worlds plus analog control was pretty mind blowing for awhile. Unfortunately, my favorite genre was rpgs, so as the generation went on part of me was pretty disappointed with my purchase.

Dreamcast ended up being such a tease, as that was my next choice. After such a long RPG drought for me, it was amazing to have Grandia 2, Skies of Arcadia, and Shenmue so early in the console life cycle. Those arcade ports were also amazing for someone who didn't get to spend much time in arcades. I was so happy with my purchase, then Sega killed it :-(
 
The Dreamcast should have been able to do Virtua Fighter 3tb in its sleep. The problem was Genki's port, not the hardware.

Didn't the Japanese version even lack a VS mode? I mean holy shit, that's kind of been standard for fighters since the beginning, how did they even fuck that up?

Dude must have been a Sony sleeper agent

He was actually fired by Sony RIGHT before Sega picked him up. That should tell you everything about Sega at the time.

:(

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
If the Sega Saturn had games worthwhile to play, where were they and would we have honestly cared?

No one gave a shit about the system. People voted with their wallets, sales prove that. My friends and I were in college at the time of the Saturn/N64/PS1 release, we owned all the systems, and even the fucking 3DO managed more play time than the Saturn due to Road Rash.

Import this. Import that. Obscure anime art. Lack of retail presence. Short shelf life. The N64 offered plenty of options which were more than good enough. It easily had the best wrestling and sports games. The better co-op library. The better platformer library. RAREWARE. The Saturn wasn't even in the same zip code as the N64.
Just because a system doesn't cater to your tastes doesn't mean it sucks. Just because something didn't sell well, doesn't mean it sucks. A little over 10 million people (which would be about 20-25 million in last-gen's market size) cared about the system. Get over your hump.
 

Celine

Member
Also, no one has mentioned the REAL reason Saturn is better than the N64

Segata_Sanshiro_Real.png


He died for our sins.
Yep, I can agree with this.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
I was too busy playing Dragon Force to be interested in the N64, really. (Though I was the only person on my block who had a Saturn, so...)
 
The Dreamcast should have been able to do Virtua Fighter 3tb in its sleep. The problem was Genki's port, not the hardware.


I never really thought that VF3:TB was a bad port, but it was always a couple shades below the Arcade Model 3 game.

Sega Rally 2 on the Dreamcast though... probably could have been a lot better. It suffered from fluctuating frame rates and had a slightly worse draw distance than the Model 3 version. Though there was a code hidden in the Dreamcast game that enabled near perfect 60FPS, but it had to disable some of the background scenery and effects just to do it.

On paper, the DC should be better hardware than Model 3, but I never really saw much evidence of that in the games. Daytona USA 2: Power Edition using Model 3 step 2 still looks quite good for a racer from 1998. The amount of polygons it throws around and really long draw distances were quite impressive back then. The video I linked too is from an emulator, but it is still a pretty good representation of the real thing. I don't think there has been a Dreamcast game that matched this. Daytona 2001 on the Dreamcast did have some ice draw distances though and steady 60fps and comparable enough trackside texture resolution, but it wasn't pushing around as many polygons.

The Dreamcast was still nice comparable hardware to what was in the arcade though. Also, looking at that Daytona 2 video, I'm still a bit depressed that we never had a home port of that... or Scud Race (Sega GT) for that matter...
 

Synth

Member
I never really thought that VF3:TB was a bad port, but it was always a couple shades below the Arcade Model 3 game.

Sega Rally 2 on the Dreamcast though... probably could have been a lot better. It suffered from fluctuating frame rates and had a slightly worse draw distance than the Model 3 version. Though there was a code hidden in the Dreamcast game that enabled near perfect 60FPS, but it had to disable some of the background scenery and effects just to do it.

On paper, the DC should be better hardware than Model 3, but I never really saw much evidence of that in the games. Daytona USA 2: Power Edition using Model 3 step 2 still looks quite good for a racer from 1998. The amount of polygons it throws around and really long draw distances were quite impressive back then. The video I linked too is from an emulator, but it is still a pretty good representation of the real thing. I don't think there has been a Dreamcast game that matched this. Daytona 2001 on the Dreamcast did have some ice draw distances though and steady 60fps and comparable enough trackside texture resolution, but it wasn't pushing around as many polygons.

The Dreamcast was still nice comparable hardware to what was in the arcade though. Also, looking at that Daytona 2 video, I'm still a bit depressed that we never had a home port of that... or Scud Race (Sega GT) for that matter...

Virtua Fighter 3tb wasn't a bad port, but the Dreamcast should have had no real trouble matching the arcade. I'm not 100% on the performance between the DC and Model 3, but the mere existence Soul Calibur and Dead or Alive 2 looking a semi-generation ahead of even the Model 3 VF3 makes it difficult for me to believe the Dreamcast wasn't up to it. If the Model 3 is more capable than the DC, then VF3 sure wasn't demonstrating it. Someone should have been publicly executed for that Sega Rally 2 port though... my god...

As for something like Daytona USA 2, that's a difficult situation to really judge. Daytona USA 2001 doesn't really work, as it's somewhat held back by its Model 2 roots. Other Sega offerings such as Crazy Taxi has a very different more open world focus. MSR is only 30fps, but at the same time is doing so much more than Daytona USA 2 overall. F355 Challenge has amazing car models, but suffers from GT and Forza style backdrops. There's not really any direct comparisons that one can really make. It'd be just as easy to point to something like Shenmue as something the Model 3 never showed any indications of being able to approximate.

I'm STILL stunned that a Daytona USA 2 port didn't happen once the original was ported to XBLA/PSN... are they just taking the piss here?
 
I never knew anyone that had a Saturn when they were current gen. All my friends and my brother had N64 (in fact, I only knew 2 people that had playstations which is crazy).

At the time, I was just getting into PC gaming so my only real console usage was for couch coop at a friend's house. N64 was great for that, at least a dozen games we played non-stop on weekends.
 

Timu

Member
Both are awesome, but the edge is given to the N64 due to the classic games on it, though Panzer Dragoon on Saturn was amazing.
 
Not many, but Shining Wisdom is one of them. All the best ones are $50+.

Ok, for really good games, I'd be willing to go around the original MSRP, say $50-60. Is this achievable for Saturn? I remember a 'GAF plays' thread for a Saturn RPG, and I checked its price, it was a $200 game!
 

nbthedude

Member
Ok, for really good games, I'd be willing to go around the original MSRP, say $50-60. Is this achievable for Saturn? I remember a 'GAF plays' thread for a Saturn RPG, and I checked its price, it was a $200 game!

It reallly fucking sucks that some of the best ones go for above $100 on ebay. Everyone should be able to play Dragon Force, Panzer Dragoon Saga and Shining Force 3. They are some of the best games in the genre but due to limited print runs they maintain a high mark up in the second hand market.

Some of the others, that are still good, like Shining the Holy Ark and Albert Odyssey can be found a bit cheaper.

This is also one of the reasons a lot of people don't know how good the Saturn was. THere were a lot of good games that had very small print runs.
 
Killing the Saturn torched the Dreamcast's chances in Japan. I always wondered how well Virtua Fighter 3 and Shenmue would have sold over there if they looked as good as they appeared to be.
Yeah, that's a good point. Not releasing VF3 or Shenmue for the Saturn was kind of crazy-stupid; the Saturn was only four years old at the end of '98, and there was clearly still some amount of market for it in Japan even if the PS1 had pulled into the lead in '97. Sure, the hardware was losing money, but games like those, to keep the software market going a bit longer and sell lots of copies of some very popular games... why would you NOT release them? Sega must have been trying to push Dreamcasts, but they failed at that, and only managed to lose even more money than they otherwise would have. A mistake for sure.

Stolar purposely ignored RPGs and anime just as that market was catching fire. It's totally mind boggling. Oh and let's ignore these arcade perfect fighting games even though crippled ports sell in the hundreds of thousands on the Playstation.
Yeah, 2d fighting games weren't as popular as they had been before, but they definitely still had enough of a market to sell okay on PS1... and that the Saturn ones were better, particularly the Capcom ones that require the 4MB RAM cart, is a definite advantage which Stolar threw away by killing the system before the RAM carts could have come out here.

And yes, being anti-RPGs at exactly the time when anime and RPGs were finally becoming popular was not exactly smart either. However, could he have guessed how huge FFVII would be? He probably should have had a clue, with how much Sony pushed the game, like, all year, but... it IS true that before that JRPGs hadn't been nearly as popular. And he DID bring over Shining Force III part 1 and Panzer Dragoon Saga, so there wasn't nothing. But the "I don't like RPGs" attitude clearly angered some of the Saturn's hardcore base and missed the direction the industry was going in, and when your sales are as low as the Saturn's were, you can't do those things and have your system survive.

However, I definitely do not think that just having some more RPGs and fighting games would have "saved the Saturn" or something; the best thing they had to answer to FFVII was probably Grandia, and there's no way that could have released before mid '98. I do think that Burning Rangers, Panzer Dragoon Saga, and Grandia would have made a pretty good first-half-'98 library had the Saturn still been a system Sega cared about, though; they'd just have needed to push it in '97, have a new bundle and more marketing, no Bernie, etc., and they could have gotten there. After mid '98 the system's library starts to thin out, unfortunately, but there certainly was enough to get through that year at least, and with VF3 Saturn, into '99 as well. Higher costs for Sega, yes, but also much higher potential benefits. Bernie's strategy coming in in spring '97 was basically to fire a lot of people at Sega of America, scale down the company, and get ready for the next generation NOW, 2 1/3 years before that generation would begin. I'm sure he reduced losses, but he also ruined Sega's present and future in the process. We know that strategy failed, so they needed to do something else instead.

Dude must have been a Sony sleeper agent
He did the same stuff at Sony before going to Sega, so no. He was just mistaken about what would sell in the mid '90s, and completely clueless about how to keep his hardcore fanbase still interested.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Yeah, that's a good point. Not releasing VF3 or Shenmue for the Saturn was kind of crazy-stupid; the Saturn was only four years old at the end of '98, and there was clearly still some amount of market for it in Japan even if the PS1 had pulled into the lead in '97. Sure, the hardware was losing money, but games like those, to keep the software market going a bit longer and sell lots of copies of some very popular games... why would you NOT release them? Sega must have been trying to push Dreamcasts, but they failed at that, and only managed to lose even more money than they otherwise would have. A mistake for sure.

Sega was busy flip flopping on whether or not to do a DC port of VF3 at all (they ultimately tossed it to a third party to port in 6 months) so pushing VF3 to the DC was definitely not the reason for that.
 
Bernie was in euthanasia mode. What he did was smart business. No one was buying Saturns and game sales were low. He was saving money so the DC could have a chance.
 
The DC ran in a higher resolution than model 3. Naomi really destroyed Model 3 is many ways.

I didn't realize that Model 3 ran at a lower resolution, I had to look it up, but yeah, it does. 496x384 is it's native resolution. Interesting. I guess the 640x480 resolution that the majority of Dreamcast games would be a pretty big factor in where the DC's pixel fill rate is going.

As for something like Daytona USA 2, that's a difficult situation to really judge. Daytona USA 2001 doesn't really work, as it's somewhat held back by its Model 2 roots. Other Sega offerings such as Crazy Taxi has a very different more open world focus. MSR is only 30fps, but at the same time is doing so much more than Daytona USA 2 overall. F355 Challenge has amazing car models, but suffers from GT and Forza style backdrops. There's not really any direct comparisons that one can really make. It'd be just as easy to point to something like Shenmue as something the Model 3 never showed any indications of being able to approximate.

Yeah, I picked Daytona 2001, because well, on the DC it's about the best comparison there is to Daytona 2. Even though it's still based on the Model 2 game, Daytona 2001 was a nice improvement over the arcade game. It did have more polygon trackside detail/ higher poly car models, higher resolution textures and virtually no pop up. The original arcade game did have some pretty noticeable draw in. The DC game also runs at a higher resolution while at 60FPS. It could've almost been the definitive Daytona USA if it weren't for those slightly finicky controls. Crazy Taxi was pretty impressive too, but it did stream the environments completely off the disc and did have some noticeable pop in too, but nothing that was ever horrendous. You're probably right about Shenmue though. But I do think Model 3 may have been more effective at streaming geometry, which is what made it great for racers like Daytona 2, Sega Rally 2, and Sega GT.

Though we are going way off topic now into a DC vs Model 3 conversation.
 
Not many, but Shining Wisdom is one of them. All the best ones are $50+.

Shining Wisdom wasn't even $30 when I was a collector nearly a decade ago.

The Japanese version can be had for a couple bucks or less.
The US version? ....

DC vs Model 3? I'd always pick DC because Naomi support was HUGE.

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=721
http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=723

Note the number of different publishers that released games on Naomi hardware. Only Sega released any model 3 games.
 
Sega was busy flip flopping on whether or not to do a DC port of VF3 at all (they ultimately tossed it to a third party to port in 6 months) so pushing VF3 to the DC was definitely not the reason for that.
Rumor is that there was a far-in-development Saturn version of VF3 that Sega had no interest in releasing... they clearly decided to drop the Saturn after 1998, even if it could have made them more money to release VF3 and Shenmue on Saturn too (since Shenmue was also mostly finished for Saturn, it seems).

Bernie was in euthanasia mode. What he did was smart business. No one was buying Saturns and game sales were low. He was saving money so the DC could have a chance.
The critical flaw in this argument is that, as I've said, the Saturn sold somewhere around a half million systems in the US in Holiday '96, a pretty substantial percentage of the system's overall sales here (1.5-2 million). But in holiday 1997, when the PS1 and N64 reached new heights of sales, the Saturn's sales line is pretty much flat -- the system was dead, thanks to Bernie. And then holiday '98, when the PS1 and N64 peaked in hardware sales here, Sega had no hardware on the market anymore, not really. The only way to defend this is if that was going to happen anyway, but I think 1996 shows that it wasn't -- you COULD sell some Saturns in the US, with enough effort. Third place, yes. But finishing with less than 10% of the hardware sales that second place got? Didn't have to be that way.

I know the idea that the Saturn might have been able to salvage something in '97 and '98 might sound unlikely, since of course it did not happen, but given how decent the holiday '96 sales were, and that in '97 and '98 Sega had game libraries about as good as they had had in '95 or '96 (including released titles and also ones they could have brought over but didn't), I don't see a good reason why that couldn't have happened, if not for them giving the company to Bernie and letting him fire lots of people, kill their only product, and replace it with nothing for years. How is THAT better than actually trying to, and selling, consoles? I don't think there's any way to know which way would have lost Sega more money overall, either; yeah, Bernie's way was lower-cost, but it was also lower-revenue. The question is, how much more revenue would there have been, versus costs; I have no idea, but I think it would have helped them overall. The way they did go went so badly, it can't have been worse!
 

kess

Member
Stolar was only good at releasing consoles, which makes it kind of amusing that he was fired by Sega in early '99. I forget the particular reason, but I think it had something to do with the $199 price point.
 

iori9999

Banned
Sega Saturn is my favorite console of all time due to the great niche library and a pad that was unmatched for fighters.. Seriously the Shmups and JRPGs on that thing was amazing.. Also, one of my favorite games of all time(NiGHTS) was on the console.. I'm one of the few Sega fanboys that's actually pro Sony atm..
 

Eusis

Member
Killing the Saturn torched the Dreamcast's chances in Japan. I always wondered how well Virtua Fighter 3 and Shenmue would have sold over there if they looked as good as they appeared to be.

Stolar purposely ignored RPGs and anime just as that market was catching fire. It's totally mind boggling. Oh and let's ignore these arcade perfect fighting games even though crippled ports sell in the hundreds of thousands on the Playstation.

Dude must have been a Sony sleeper agent
I wonder how much those would've REALLY done for the Saturn, but that system was always a mess and even then the likes of the PSP and Vita seem to hold on BECAUSE they've embraced this side of them or at least didn't prevent it from flourishing (the other angle is that Sony can afford, one way or another, to keep them around.)

Still, as much as I have a soft spot for the Saturn this is undeniably what made it one of the most frustrating consoles, the PS1 and 2 share in that because of Sony policies (and the PSP got bit by those too as I recall) that probably had their roots from when he and others launched the PS1, but the Saturn was a treasure trove of that stuff and I had really gotten into it then. Probably should've doubled down and sought resources for learning Japanese or something rather than hearing about how hard it is and resigning myself.
 
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