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Nintendo reveals Legend of Zelda series timeline

Marlowe89

Member
That means whoever has the "spirit of the hero" will rise against the evil. They are not the same person, and they are not reincarnations of each other.
I'm not exactly sure you're familiar with the definition of "spirit", especially as it's used in the original Japanese dialogue. I also don't see why they'd even include Fi's line from Skyward Sword's ending or Ganondorf's line from TWW if it wasn't true. Reincarnation has always been a particularly strong element in this series. Why even hint at this stuff so much if it wasn't meant to be interpreted that way?

It's all but confirmed at this point that every Link from every game is in essence the same Link.

Nintendo-4Life said:
Also
The fact that Fi never meets link kind of defeats your argument :p

But the fact that she technically DOES, since she becomes one with the Master Sword, kind of defeats yours.
 

ASIS

Member
I'm not exactly sure you're familiar with the definition of "spirit", especially as it's used in the original Japanese dialogue. I don't see why they'd even include Fi's line from Skyward Sword's ending or Ganondorf's line from TWW if it wasn't true. Reincarnation has always been a particularly strong element in this series.



But the fact that she technically DOES, since she becomes one with the Master Sword, kind of defeats yours.

I'm not sure why they'd include King of Red Lion's speech if that's what they meant. And no, I'm not that familiar with the japanese definition but from what I understand is spirit =/= soul.

This is pure speculation on your part, as far as we know Fi is SLEEPING, she's not the master sword, and there's no hint that she is either
 
From the very beginning, OoT was meant to portray the backstory from the intro of ALttP, the Imprisoning War. Too bad it didn't really fit because of some inconsistencies, like Link showing up to defeat Ganon (well, duh) or no actual war taking place, which led some fans to speculate it actually was a completely different story. A separate timeline with Link losing is clearly a cop-out solution to retcon OoT into something more similar to what it was supposed to be in the first place, and to give the older games a placement that made some sense, since OoT, TWW and TP made their placement in the timeline quite problematic.
So, I wouldn't think too hard about a justification for Link to lose, or about every other game potentially branching for game over scenarios.

I always assumed the Imprisoning War took place between the 7 years that Link was hibernating.
 

Marlowe89

Member
I'm not sure why they'd include King of Red Lion's speech if that's what they meant. And no, I'm not that familiar with the japanese definition but from what I understand is spirit =/= soul.
The King of Red Lions obviously meant that he wasn't blood-related to the Hero of Time, which is true. Besides the fact that spirit = soul in many ENGLISH interpretations, the Japanese word for the word "spirit" in Zelda is synonymous with soul. And again, you're for some reason misregarding Ganondorf's statement.

This is pure speculation on your part, as far as we know Fi is SLEEPING, she's not the master sword, and there's no hint that she is either
Other than the game's text repeatedly clarifying that she's the sword's spirit? She IS one with the Master Sword, she technically always has been.
Whether or not she's sleeping is totally irrelevant.
 

ASIS

Member
The King of Red Lions obviously meant that he wasn't blood-related to the Hero of Time, which is true. Besides the fact that spirit = soul in many ENGLISH interpretations, the Japanese word for the word "spirit" in Zelda is synonymous with soul. And again, you're for some reason misregarding Ganondorf's statement.


Other than the game's text repeatedly clarifying that she's the sword's spirit? She IS one with the Master Sword, she technically always has been.
Whether or not she's sleeping is totally irrelevant.

She was the spirit residing in the sword, she was never the sword's spirit (if memory serves correctly)


I'm not disregarding Ganondorf's statement, but I always took it as the "new hero" type of thing. It's like a band gets called "the new beatles" (this is a terrible example but you do get where I'm going with this no?).

Regardless, if that's what they meant in the Japanese text then I stand corrected.
 

Marlowe89

Member
She was the spirit residing in the sword, she was never the sword's spirit (if memory serves correctly)
The game makes a reference to "spirit of the blade" (in those exact words) when referring to Fi, as well as "Fi and the great blade she's a part of". I also think (unless I'm mistaken) that Miyamoto or someone had also confirmed that she was the humanoid representation of the Master Sword in an interview.

I'm not disregarding Ganondorf's statement, but I always took it as the "new hero" type of thing. It's like a band gets called "the new beatles" (this is a terrible example but you do get where I'm going with this no?).
I get where you're coming from, but it's one of those quotes that can just as easily be taken literally. When I put two and two together with the other quotes, I find it difficult to interpret it in some odd figurative way.
 

ASIS

Member
The game makes a reference to "spirit of the blade" (in those exact words) when referring to Fi, as well as "Fi and the great blade she's a part of". I also think (unless I'm mistaken) that Miyamoto or someone had also confirmed that she was the humanoid representation of the Master Sword in an interview.


I get where you're coming from, but it's one of those quotes that can just as easily be taken literally. When I put two and two together with the other quotes, I find it difficult to interpret it in some odd figurative way.

Okay I need to replay SS for the third time now, WTF why can't I remember this?

Anyway, the reason how I interpreted it before was that "the spirit of the hero" was more like a characteristic than an actual spirit in different vessels (which was also implied in the Windwaker and Twilight Princess videos I posted). That's where the confusion came from. But if the Japanese text explains it better then that's that I guess.
 

cilonen

Member
Honestly, I'm just going to stick with the idea that, in the "failure" timeline, OOT's events in terms of Link just didn't happen, and no Hero in general rose up to defeat Ganon. From Skyward Sword to Zelda II is one continuous timeline of the legend, where OOT's events never came to be.

There's no "split" as I see it, since OOT didn't happen. The "split" happens in the other continuous timeline, due to time travel.

So basically, to provide a visual example, the three different timelines as told in Hyrule Historia actually look like a two-pronged fork and a knife.

Yep, that's a better way of putting my take on it too.
 

Xun

Member
Honestly, I'm just going to stick with the idea that, in the "failure" timeline, OOT's events in terms of Link just didn't happen, and no Hero in general rose up to defeat Ganon. From Skyward Sword to Zelda II is one continuous timeline of the legend, where OOT's events never came to be.

There's no "split" as I see it, since OOT didn't happen. The "split" happens in the other continuous timeline, due to time travel.

So basically, to provide a visual example, the three different timelines as told in Hyrule Historia actually look like a two-pronged fork and a knife.
That's how I see it too.
 

RagnarokX

Member
The game makes a reference to "spirit of the blade" (in those exact words) when referring to Fi, as well as "Fi and the great blade she's a part of". I also think (unless I'm mistaken) that Miyamoto or someone had also confirmed that she was the humanoid representation of the Master Sword in an interview.


I get where you're coming from, but it's one of those quotes that can just as easily be taken literally. When I put two and two together with the other quotes, I find it difficult to interpret it in some odd figurative way.
I dunno. King of Red Lions says Link bears no relation to the Hero of Time, I think that would include soul. Ganon just says "Surely you are the Hero of Time, reborn!" Which is more vague than KoRL's statement and has more interpretations. Plus "surely" makes it less of a statement of fact and more of opinion. One thing I like about Wind Waker is that Link isn't the hero chosen by the gods; he's a boy who wants to save his sister and becomes accepted as the hero through his perseverance. Wind Waker Link definitely has the best character growth of any Link in the series; from having reluctance to be fired from a catapult to launching himself into the air to stab Ganon in the face.
 

Marlowe89

Member
I dunno. King of Red Lions says Link bears no relation to the Hero of Time, I think that would include soul. Ganon just says "Surely you are the Hero of Time, reborn!" Which is more vague than KoRL's statement and has more interpretations. Plus "surely" makes it less of a statement of fact and more of opinion. One thing I like about Wind Waker is that Link isn't the hero chosen by the gods; he's a boy who wants to save his sister and becomes accepted as the hero through his perseverance. Wind Waker Link definitely has the best character growth of any Link in the series; from having reluctance to be fired from a catapult to launching himself into the air to stab Ganon in the face.

I'm going to take this further - in the original Japanese text, Ganondorf specifically calls Link the reincarnation of the Hero of Time... and there's no "surely" anywhere in that one, just an "As I expected of". I don't think this would necessarily contradict the fact TWW Link would begin with a good deal of reluctance, either. I'm still pretty sure the King of Red Lions is referring to ancestry, but I find that sentence to be much more vague.

Either way, I think the implications are far too big for the ultimate connection between Links to be anything less than actual reincarnation. I simply doubt the developers would include all these hints and not have this be the case.
 

Blader

Member
Honestly, I'm just going to stick with the idea that, in the "failure" timeline, OOT's events in terms of Link just didn't happen, and no Hero in general rose up to defeat Ganon. From Skyward Sword to Zelda II is one continuous timeline of the legend, where OOT's events never came to be.

There's no "split" as I see it, since OOT didn't happen. The "split" happens in the other continuous timeline, due to time travel.

So basically, to provide a visual example, the three different timelines as told in Hyrule Historia actually look like a two-pronged fork and a knife.

You can stick with that if you want, you'd just be wrong. :p
 
Probably too late in the thread to be talking about this particular point again but it's still nagging me. Please don't get angry.

I understand the child timeline, he simply wins the final battle, goes back in time and the events pan differently, thus creating the child and adult lines. I don't have a problem with link failing but since it's the outcome of the same final Ganon battle that causes the "failure" split, how can Link at the same time lose that battle and win it to then go back to the past? Or is it that the split is supposed to happen at some point in time before that (then when), and we had two different Ganon battles with separate outcomes?

I know, Nintendo didn't plan it from the start blah blah, I don't care, I'm just trying to understand what exactly they are proposing with how the failure timeline came to be. Is it really a matter of making game over/continue canon? As in, you lost, you reset the game and then Link was alive again but the timeline was created? Or did Zelda perform some mumbo-jumbo and created a new line where Link would succeed after he died in front of her? I'm usually quick to grasp this kind of stuff but alas.
Just assume that it's a 3rd ending we didn't consider before. It's not a difficult concept as long as you're willing to think outside of what the game allows you to do and think of it more like an alternative ending from a movie.

Honestly, I'm just going to stick with the idea that, in the "failure" timeline, OOT's events in terms of Link just didn't happen, and no Hero in general rose up to defeat Ganon. From Skyward Sword to Zelda II is one continuous timeline of the legend, where OOT's events never came to be.

There's no "split" as I see it, since OOT didn't happen. The "split" happens in the other continuous timeline, due to time travel.

So basically, to provide a visual example, the three different timelines as told in Hyrule Historia actually look like a two-pronged fork and a knife.
I don't agree it would be proper to assume the events of OoT never happened, because if Link dies during Ganon's 2nd form, it would explain both how he was able to get into the sacred realm (by Link having opened the path to it) and how he turned into his hideous pig form (he transformed during the final battle and never turned back).

I don't know why you would want to go against the idea of Link dying (or to be more friendly to children, "failing") during OoT anyway. Also despite Link being integral to OoT, he is only really seen as a legend or a hero by high status characters such as Zelda or the Sages, so when someone other than him to stop Ganon, most of the people will be singing their praises to that instead.

Also consider that there is a lot that could go wrong during the final battle that's outside of Link's control (he may have never gotten the Light Arrows, may not have been able to recover the Master Sword when it was knocked away, etc).
 

Tik-Tok

Member
I always just assumed that each new Zelda game, you were supposed to throw away everything that had happened before, instead of trying to make sense of everything.

A brand new Zelda adventure every time.

With the obvious exceptions of the games that are designed to go together.

Nintendo is simultaneously the best, and flat out retarded. <3
 

MisterHero

Super Member
Why does Link not have any parents in any of the games?
Link had parents in OoT, they died in the Hyrulean Civil War

but maybe Link's direct family aren't mentioned so that it doesn't affect his status as a lone adventurer.

Sure, he had Aryll, but aside from her only Grandma is mentioned too. They are more character archetypes the player will identify with, rather than emphasis that Link has relatives, however.

maybe Link can be incarnated as quadtuplets sometimes

Zelda Four Swords without the crazy sword magic
 

Jomjom

Banned
So has there been any explanation of why FSA follows Twilight Princess yet?

I can suspend my disbelief pretty easily as long as there some sort of explanation.
 

RagnarokX

Member
I'd have to say the most confusing Link is Spirit Tracks Link. Is he not related to Wind Waker Link at all? What happened to Wind Waker Link after they settled New Hyrule? Spirit Tracks doesn't take place THAT long after Wind Waker.
 
So has there been any explanation of why FSA follows Twilight Princess yet?

I can suspend my disbelief pretty easily as long as there some sort of explanation.

Well FSA is modeled fairly closely to TP/ALttP's map. At the end of TP, Link kills Ganondorf and FSA has an origin of a new Ganon in it.
 

NeonZ

Member
I'm going to take this further - in the original Japanese text, Ganondorf specifically calls Link the reincarnation of the Hero of Time...

Well, "&#29983;&#12414;&#12428;&#22793;&#12431;&#12426;" can be translated as "reborn" too like in the official translation. The only element added there for flavor was the "surely". Even if most Links are reincarnation, I don't think WW Link really fits there. Aside from the King's words about him both not being the Hero of Time and being unrelated to him, there's also some other basic elements from the game, like how he only gets the Triforce Mark after getting a Triforce piece by himself, unlike other Links that got destined marks out of nowhere or just had the Triforce flying to them automatically to give them those marks.

Ganondorf's statement there has basically no elaboration nor support in any other moment of Wind Waker. You'd think at least they'd include a line afterwards from the King about him being unable to recognize that the Hero of Time had been standing in front of him all that time, after saying several times that he wasn't him. But, no, there's nothing. And every previous line that actually relates WW Link to the Hero just mentions that Wind Waker Link has the qualities to be an hero and any kind of direct relation is denied several times. I think the idea of a successor was closer to what Wind Waker was going for than an actual reincarnation.
 

beastmode

Member
I always just assumed that each new Zelda game, you were supposed to throw away everything that had happened before, instead of trying to make sense of everything.

A brand new Zelda adventure every time.

With the obvious exceptions of the games that are designed to go together.

Nintendo is simultaneously the best, and flat out retarded. <3
4 timelines then?

LoZ -> Zelda II

MC -> FS -> FSA -> LttP

Oracle games -> LA

SS-> OoT -> WW -> PH -> ST
SS-> OoT -> MM -> TP
So has there been any explanation of why FSA follows Twilight Princess yet?

I can suspend my disbelief pretty easily as long as there some sort of explanation.
FSA was made as a prequel for LttP before they introduced the failed timeline. FSA was the bridge from TP to LttP.

Now Nintendo doesn't care about any 2d game that isn't *A Link to the Past*, so they left it after TP.
 

Blader

Member
So has there been any explanation of why FSA follows Twilight Princess yet?

I can suspend my disbelief pretty easily as long as there some sort of explanation.

It's the origin of a new Ganon so it can't go before OoT, in-between OoT and TP, or in-between OoT and ALttP. It also can't go in TWW's timeline since the Four Sword would have been destroyed at the end of that game.

It could have gone between ALttP and Zelda I, or after TP. They chose the latter.


I'd have to say the most confusing Link is Spirit Tracks Link. Is he not related to Wind Waker Link at all? What happened to Wind Waker Link after they settled New Hyrule? Spirit Tracks doesn't take place THAT long after Wind Waker.

I thought Spirit Tracks was supposed to be like 100 years later?
 

Jomjom

Banned
Ah thanks for all the responses guys. That's sounds plausible enough to me! (Like I said I just need the minutest of links to latch on to)
 

RagnarokX

Member
I always just assumed that each new Zelda game, you were supposed to throw away everything that had happened before, instead of trying to make sense of everything.

A brand new Zelda adventure every time.

With the obvious exceptions of the games that are designed to go together.

Nintendo is simultaneously the best, and flat out retarded. <3

Well.

SS, OoT, MM, TP, WW, PH, and ST very clearly go together.

ALttP, LA, LoZ, and AoL go together and OoT was made with the intent of being prequel to ALttP.

So that leaves the Oracle games and Four Sword games. The majority of games have been designed to go together. This just clarifies how the ALttP's timeline is related to the other games and where the oracle and four sword games fit.

I thought Spirit Tracks was supposed to be like 100 years later?
100 years is nothing... like nobody remembers Wind Waker Link in ST except for Niko. There's a huge stained glass window of Tetra.

Ah thanks for all the responses guys. That's sounds plausible enough to me! (Like I said I just need the minutest of links to latch on to)

Well, the simplest answer is there are only 3 places where FSA can go; at the end of each timeline. It can't go before OoT Ganon dies because FSA Ganon is a different Ganon/reincarnation and he is sealed in FSA, so for FSA to occur before WW, TP, or AoL would result in there being 2 Ganons at the same time (it can't go before AoL because Ganon is still dead in that game).
 

Marlowe89

Member
Ganondorf's statement there has basically no elaboration nor support in any other moment of Wind Waker. You'd think at least they'd include a line afterwards from the King about him being unable to recognize that the Hero of Time had been standing in front of him all that time, after saying several times that he wasn't him. But, no, there's nothing. And every previous line that actually relates WW Link to the Hero just mentions that Wind Waker Link has the qualities to be an hero and any kind of direct relation is denied several times. I think the idea of a successor was closer to what Wind Waker was going for than an actual reincarnation.

Well, obviously he's not physically the Hero of Time. Reincarnation works as the soul being manifested into a different body.

However, I don't deny the possibility that TWW Link isn't a reincarnation, but I think Ganondforf's statement can work in my favor if that's what the developers intended. I really don't mind at all if it turns out he isn't (despite every Link having virtually the same appearance), but I think it's an equally likely scenario at the very least. I'd love it if someone directly asked Aonuma this question in a future interview.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Well.

SS, OoT, MM, TP, WW, PH, and ST very clearly go together.

ALttP, LA, LoZ, and AoL go together and OoT was made with the intent of being prequel to ALttP.

So that leaves the Oracle games and Four Sword games. The majority of games have been designed to go together. This just clarifies how the ALttP's timeline is related to the other games and where the oracle and four sword games fit.

I thought the ending of the Oracle games made it kind of clear that LA was next.
 

Red UFO

Member
I find the idea of a 3rd timeline where Link fails to be pretty dumb. That's not a split in the timeline, that's just a 'what if' scenario!
 

MisterHero

Super Member
Let's make it even more interesting and bring in the Master Quest universes and the universes designed to be navigated by left-handed and right-handed Links
 
Well, obviously he's not physically the Hero of Time. Reincarnation works as the soul being manifested into a different body.

However, I don't deny the possibility that TWW Link isn't a reincarnation, but I think Ganondforf's statement can work in my favor if that's what the developers intended. I really don't mind at all if it turns out he isn't (despite every Link having virtually the same appearance), but I think it's an equally likely scenario at the very least. I'd love it if someone directly asked Aonuma this question in a future interview.

My perspective is that he is a new hero. Unlike all other Zelda's, SS and TWW Link had to prove themselves to become the hero. In all the other games it is just accepted that he is the hero that is to accept his destiny. SS Link is the first hero in the timeline and has to prove himself by completing many trials. Every hero after that has already been chosen by the gods. They don't need to prove themselves. With OoT Link being sent to an alternate timeline it means him and his soul no longer exist in that timeline, thus he couldn't be reincarnated to show up when Ganondorf returned. TWW Link had to prove himself before the gods and pass trials to become the new hero.

That's my interpretation anyway.
 

RagnarokX

Member
My perspective is that he is a new hero. Unlike all other Zelda's, SS and TWW Link had to prove themselves to become the hero. In all the other games it is just accepted that he is the hero that is to accept his destiny. SS Link is the first hero in the timeline and has to prove himself by completing many trials. Every hero after that has already been chosen by the gods. They don't need to prove themselves. With OoT Link being sent to an alternate timeline it means him and his soul no longer exist in that timeline, thus he couldn't be reincarnated to show up when Ganondorf returned. TWW Link had to prove himself before the gods and pass trials to become the new hero.

That's my interpretation anyway.

Eh, even SS Link
is the destined hero before he does anything.
Wind Waker Link chanced into the opportunity and earned it.
 

beastmode

Member
My perspective is that he is a new hero. Unlike all other Zelda's, SS and TWW Link had to prove themselves to become the hero. In all the other games it is just accepted that he is the hero that is to accept his destiny. SS Link is the first hero in the timeline and has to prove himself by completing many trials. Every hero after that has already been chosen by the gods. They don't need to prove themselves. With OoT Link being sent to an alternate timeline it means him and his soul no longer exist in that timeline, thus he couldn't be reincarnated to show up when Ganondorf returned. TWW Link had to prove himself before the gods and pass trials to become the new hero.

That's my interpretation anyway.
Except that ST Link is SS Link as Malladus is almost certainly an incarnation of
Demise's hatred
.
 

RagnarokX

Member
He's a renamed Ganon that attacks once an incarnation Link is born on the continent.

But Malladus existed before there was a Link in that area. And
Demise didn't say he would be reincarnated, he said his hatred would. And that doesn't necessarily mean actual reincarnation, but that hatred will always exist beyond him.
 

beastmode

Member
I said I wasn't debating that part. I asked why you thought SS Link is the same as ST Link.
because all links are reincarnations of the same person, if ww was the odd one out it would be doubly odd since st link is most likely a reincarnation.
But Malladus existed before there was a Link in that area. And
Demise didn't say he would be reincarnated, he said his hatred would. And that doesn't necessarily mean actual reincarnation, but that hatred will always exist beyond him.
honestly i don't think there wasn't a single person that didn't go "omg
ganon!
" at that moment. and of course malladus was in new hyrule before any link, it's him returning as soon as there is a link and zelda (
demise
says his hatred's incarnations will haunt them) and requiring a princess zelda to revive himself (just like ganon, among other similarities) that screams him being another version of ganon/
demise's hatred
. if malladus being in new hyrule before link and zelda disqualifies him, you might as well say oot ganondorf can't be one either as he was born before link and zelda...

of course, you could just equate all evil in the zelda universe to his hatred as an alternative.
 

Marlowe89

Member
Something I missed earlier because I was skimming over too fast:

Well, "&#29983;&#12414;&#12428;&#22793;&#12431;&#12426;" can be translated as "reborn" too like in the official translation.
While that's true, it means reborn/reincarnation in the literal sense as every usage of the word I've observed was in reference to actual reincarnation. I'm almost certain Ganondorf was calling Link a non-figurative reincarnation of the Hero of Time. Whether he's right or wrong is indeed up for debate, but the developers have given us no literary reason in the game's text to think his statement was erroneous. KoRL could be talking about a number of things, but "blood relation" was the first thing to come to mind for me.

While many might see TWW's Link as the odd one out, I distinctly remember TWW being the first game to give us a hint in which Link might be a reincarnation of a past Link. Skyward Sword just continued from there.
 
I find the idea of a 3rd timeline where Link fails to be pretty dumb. That's not a split in the timeline, that's just a 'what if' scenario!

Then something caused the split, and then Link is killed. That's not what if.

The failed timeline is any split that does not end with the Ganon's defeat. That could mean any split that causes Link to be killed, or causes him to never show up. We can see that time travel can cause these splits and there are several instances in OoT in which Link can cause a failed timeline.
 

Forkball

Member
I find the idea of a 3rd timeline where Link fails to be pretty dumb. That's not a split in the timeline, that's just a 'what if' scenario!

What's even dumber is that most games are under this hypothetical timeline.

Hey what's the timeline if Ganon was never born? What if SS Link failed? What about if instead of flooding Hyrule, they filled it with chocolate? What if Link was a girl?
 
What's even dumber is that most games are under this hypothetical timeline.

Hey what's the timeline if Ganon was never born? What if SS Link failed? What about if instead of flooding Hyrule, they filled it with chocolate? What if Link was a girl?

The timeline in the Hyrule Historia book is meant to details all the games in the series, not all the splits in the timeline.
 

Suairyu

Banned
I find the idea of a 3rd timeline where Link fails to be pretty dumb. That's not a split in the timeline, that's just a 'what if' scenario!
COSMIC EVENT

Ganondorf reaches the sacred realm and the triforce splits.

The power of that split sunders the timeline in three!

... maybe?

edit - but seriously, what is wrong with a what-if scenario? My previous theory was that it was a bunch of different continuities with OoT as a common starting point. This new official timeline is exactly that theory of mine in regards to the what-if trajectory.
 
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