Vane_MagicCity
Banned
I don't consider sale prices to be "default" prices.
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"No more used games" uproar for nothing?
- Thread starter Cru Jones
- Start date
I don't consider sale prices to be "default" prices.
believe
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
believe
Looks like a budget DVD player.
Tell me about it. Everyone is clamouring for cheaper prices which just won't happen if the used game market is still in place. I hate to boil it down to simple economics but it really is. If eliminating used games really causes sales to drop as drastically as some predict than prices will go lower to compensate until an equilibrium is reached. Pubs are NEVER going to lower prices first as price drops are always reactionary and for good reason, like any capitalistic company they have a responsibility to be as profitable as possible within the bounds of the law.
I always see this brought up and it may be true... for you. However, game publishers aren't interested in what you would do. They are interested in what a majority of people will do and it sounds like they are willing to wager that you are an outlier and not the average consumer. $1.8B in used sales annually isn't chump change. If you look at the average trade in deal that GameStop puts out there (3 used for 1 new), each new sale that used games generate causes the industry to lose 3 potential sales.
QuicheFontaine
Member
There are certainly some interesting questions to be answered in this area (such as can you pass on your downloaded music to someone when you die) as increasingly technology tends to throw a spanner in the works regarding what we think of as "property" and "ownership". Legitimate questions of remuneration and fairness. But frankly I, and I think from this thread most GAFfers, find the idea of handing the power to control secondary markets to games developers and publishers (who have proven time and again that they can't be trusted not to abuse that power) completely unacceptable. When we buy a game, we want to buy it, and have the rights associated with buying it. Not merely license it.
PC also has cheaper games for the most part.
It's rare that every single new release is $59.99 as where that is always the price, in some cases it takes 3-4 months to dip below $39.99-49.99 where as i have gotten every new release same month for $39.99 or below on PC. That almost never happens on consoles.
I almost always buy used on console games, i like to trade games with other people and if i can't do that on consoles i have no reason to own a console. If i want to buy and keep games i will do that on my PC. My consoles are for trading games, renting games, buying super cheap at flea markets, pawn shops etc. That is the major appeal of console gaming to me and to a lot of other people and to people saying no used games isn't going to be a big deal you are out of your fucking mind. There is a reason gamestop is as big as it is. People like to try out used games, sell games, trade them, rent them from redbox/gamefly and if they can't do that they simply won't buy. Will it bankrupt microsoft or sony? No, but it's going to put publishers or developers out of business.
Alcoholikaust
Member
if it weren't for used games most of GAF wouldn't have Xenoblade Chronicles.
And guess what, consoles are sold at a loss and those losses are made up from licensing fees for each new game sold. You and those like you, from a publisher and console manufacturers point of view, are leeches who purchase a console and bring the pubs/console manufacturers nothing but losses. You are a perfect example of why they want to implement this system in the first place and I can't blame them. The idea that publishers will go out of business without this type of customer couldn't be further from the truth. They will be more profitable if they either weed you out or are able to monetize your kind through online passes and the like.
Indeed. Or they leaked such a ridiculous rumor to create a huge uproar, so that they can come out and get something slightly less ridiculous accepted by the people because it's not as bad as the other thing.
And/Or it will be explained in a way that makes it seem less bad, and isn't as direct in practice, but still as bad basically. They've gotten away with subscriptions, DLC, holding out on content, etc. so..
That reminds me, Xenoblade either needs a reprint before X comes out, or a VC release of some sort.
It's somehow customers' fault that a pricing system decided upon unilaterally by publishers isn't working to the publishers' advantage 100% of the time?
I usually dont buy PreOwned, but I usually jump into Sony platforms a few years after release, when the price is resonable. And a lot of times some early games that I might want to play wont be sold new are are usually out of print. So i'm basically left with going for preowned titles as a means of getting those games. Thats how I got Bayonetta and 3D Dot game heroes. Not able to get preowned? then thats less game exposure.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
There are a few people saying "they better give us a way to play used games or I won't buy" when they should be saying "if they restrict used games in any way, I won't buy".
Supermanisdead
Member
It's not just about buying used from Gamestop. Many people also buy used games from ebay, craiglist etc. Not to mention people selling consoles and all their games in bulk and stuff.
That's not even including friends/family lending games and rental services.
No used games is a FAR BIGGER problem than people not being able to save 5$ at Gamestop.
That's not even including friends/family lending games and rental services.
No used games is a FAR BIGGER problem than people not being able to save 5$ at Gamestop.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
They sell consoles at a loss because they don't design them within the proper price range. They are considering this plan because they see it working on Steam. Publishers also need to learn to lower their budgets, having to sell 5 Million to break even is just irresponsible. Blaming consumers for decisions they have no part in is just nonsense.
No, it's not the consumers fault at all. But by the same token you can't expect publishers to not try and close up a hole in their business model.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
We absolutely can expect publishers to respect the First Sale Doctrine. This is the problem, too many people saying that it's ok for corporations to be anti-consumer.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Used games keep the market in fucking check
If your game fucking sucks, it will be known equally review and monetarily wise
If people are returning a garbage game at a rapid pace or a shell of a game, the retailers have warning flags going off of this shit ain't selling, no need to order another batch until new/used stock sells out
Used market is what consumer makes the price of the game really should be
I get the underhanded Gamestop practices, but it's not the only way people buy used
Yes it has a huge portion, but it's not the only definitive pathway to used games
ebay, Gamefly, craigslist, goozex, hell GAF Buy/Sell/Trade, etc.
Some buy $60 games, only play SP, never touch MP, and give away their online passes here or other places or even sell for a few bucks
Used games makes publishers/developers fucking humble about their products
I still want to know this perception where this fantasy/dream comes from if used market gets abolished games will become cheaper...
Are you fucking kidding me?
This gen alone shows you how greedy publishers can be if they have more power over the consumer
Publishers are out to make the most profit possible out of a consumer, a consumer (a smart one) will either wait for a deal to have a leverage over the publisher, or if they deem the content worthy enough buy it right on the spot
If your game fucking sucks, it will be known equally review and monetarily wise
If people are returning a garbage game at a rapid pace or a shell of a game, the retailers have warning flags going off of this shit ain't selling, no need to order another batch until new/used stock sells out
Used market is what consumer makes the price of the game really should be
I get the underhanded Gamestop practices, but it's not the only way people buy used
Yes it has a huge portion, but it's not the only definitive pathway to used games
ebay, Gamefly, craigslist, goozex, hell GAF Buy/Sell/Trade, etc.
Some buy $60 games, only play SP, never touch MP, and give away their online passes here or other places or even sell for a few bucks
Used games makes publishers/developers fucking humble about their products
I still want to know this perception where this fantasy/dream comes from if used market gets abolished games will become cheaper...
Are you fucking kidding me?
This gen alone shows you how greedy publishers can be if they have more power over the consumer
Publishers are out to make the most profit possible out of a consumer, a consumer (a smart one) will either wait for a deal to have a leverage over the publisher, or if they deem the content worthy enough buy it right on the spot
What you call a hole in their business model is known to most of human history as a basic human right.
Frankly, the legality of a console maker completely blocking the buying and selling of used video games distributed on physical media (or even mandating an unlock code for single player games) is questionable at best in the United States and certainly illegal in Europe. I am going to wait to hear more information but most of the proposals I have seen would heavily infringe on consumer rights and certainly need to have their legality ultimately determined in a court of law.
Lets pretend that all consoles are sold at a profit, publishers and console manufacturers would still want to eliminate these types of consumers who bring nothing to the ecosystem.
I will agree that there are more problems outside of used games in the industry but the problem you are talking about (budgets being too high) isn't the issue we are discussing here. Like I have said many times, a capitalistic company will always try and extract the most profit out of a product as possible as long as their tactics fall within the bounds of the law. Ideally they would like to lower budgets AND increase sales numbers, meeting one of these conditions doesn't negate the need for the other.
It's not a hole in their business model, it's established law around the world.
Mantorok
Member
That's a good point but I just hope they play it smart and give the people they are trying to weed out a good alternative and not just completely try and corner everyone into paying the ever-increasing prices we are paying now.
If they are going to increase sales and it proves the case then a drop in price would be nice too.
Yeah, that's true. They'll probably just establish new, bad precedents if they think people would buy a console that "somehow" played used games.
Anyhow, as some people have mentioned, publishers/developers are struggling with money. But how can people defend them on this issue? Their problem isn't the used games market, and certainly won't be solved by preventing used game sales.
The problem is that game budgets are ridiculous, absurd, obscene, extreme, and yet the actual game doesn't feel like a representation of something that is anywhere near the supposed budget. They obviously need to change their development process.
In addition to points I've made earlier about how the used games market balances the game economy in a positive way (People sell used games, buy new games, people rent games, find out about interesting genres/developers/series, etc.), they would also have to reduce the asking price of a new game to justify it -- and the money they'd lose on a reasonably reduced new-game price (10-20% less?) isn't that far away from the amount of money in the used game market.
partyphone
Banned
This is all about the old business model crumbling away and incumbent interests desperately trying to reassert control over content they perceive to be solely and entirely their property. That's why most license agreements state that you're being allowed to use a copy of that software at the discretion of the rights holder.
Their entire industry was built upon copies being expensive and difficult to make and distribute. But now that the internet trivialized not only copying but distribution they're freaking out and doing stupid things.
The companies that embrace change are going to survive and the ones that fight it tooth and nail will die. And as a nice little bonus we get to suffer their slings and arrows.
Their entire industry was built upon copies being expensive and difficult to make and distribute. But now that the internet trivialized not only copying but distribution they're freaking out and doing stupid things.
The companies that embrace change are going to survive and the ones that fight it tooth and nail will die. And as a nice little bonus we get to suffer their slings and arrows.
gundalf
Member
One could argue that a "must carry eShop vesion" rule could prevent this but the moment the publisher gets out of business, the title must be removed from the shop.
This means that there is no way to obtain a copy, if you want the game you need to buy the complete console or account from a 3rd Person.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
It is your opinion that used games bring nothing to the ecosystem. It has been pointed out many times that this is just not true. People trade in old games to buy new ones. People buy older, out of print games for cheap and become customers for future games in a franchise. People rent a game to determine if the game is worth a new purchase, etc...
Take away used games and you will see a huge drop in new game sales. We can't all spend $60 everytime a new game comes out, we need to offset that cost by trading in old games.
SixMachine
Member
No more used games will also hurt grassroots videogame communities. Imagine trying to run a Street Fighter tournament with this no used policy. Even a small local which has maybe around a dozen people would be hurt by it because it's a community effort to bring the required equipment to get things running.
I was referring to the user who posted he and a large majority of people buy exclusively used games. These people bring nothing to the ecosystem.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Because they look at sales of $60 PC single player games that require a constant online connection like Diablo3 and think it will work for consoles. Gamers speak the loudest with their wallets.
Couldn't people just bring a copy of their game AND their console?
The main problem is something like this.
In 20 years, you will go to a flea market and see this old classic game called Call of Duty 5 : Operation Black
You will buy it for 1$ and then go home and dust off your old 720.
You will try to boot it and NOPE. Cant play it. Microsoft servers are down since they went out of business and so YOU CANNOT play the game. The game will be forever stuck on the disk. You will have to go find a way to pirate your 720 to play games you OWN because you cannot play them without registering them.
Imagine if the NES had something like that?
In 20 years, you will go to a flea market and see this old classic game called Call of Duty 5 : Operation Black
You will buy it for 1$ and then go home and dust off your old 720.
You will try to boot it and NOPE. Cant play it. Microsoft servers are down since they went out of business and so YOU CANNOT play the game. The game will be forever stuck on the disk. You will have to go find a way to pirate your 720 to play games you OWN because you cannot play them without registering them.
Imagine if the NES had something like that?
They do, and most of them arent playing on PC.
I would think there would be ways around this. Call it an activation fee and you can probably get around it. It just so happens that when you are buying new you are buying a $50 license with a $10 activation instead of a $60 license. You are still free to resell your license, but the new purchaser must pay $10 for activation on their device.
Haunted
Member
The Splorgenborg is real.
believe
Yes they do.
You see - someone buys a game new for 60$. Sells it later for 40 or 50$. To whom? Those people. If you remove those, people will just buy less new games as well. And may wait even longer for price drops/sales and will also don't do blind buys anymore. Blocking used games will bite publishers in the ass, because they actually decrease the value of games by doing that.
Same with on-line passes. The argument is that the used buyer should pay a bit to the publisher. But actually only the one who sells the game pays, not the used buyer. For the first used buyer actually the original buyer pays. The original buyer has to sell the game for a lower price because of the online pass. He won't get as much money back like before.
I won't buy any console that does this shit, although I actually buy almost everything new and I even almost never sell games. BUT I want to be able to sell turds. And I also want to get games that are out of print. If every console would do this, I will actually quit my hobby (or play previous gens, I don't care).
Ragingnight
Member
if it happens then I'll stick to systems that let me play used games. I don't buy used games at all (I often buy day1 games and don't play them till days/weeks later due to discounts). But I still think its a dick move.
If I want to buy some rare game and play it then I should be able to. If I want to bring a game over to my friends house to play at a gaming party then I should be able to.
If both ps4/xbox720 don't play used games then I'll buy a ps4 used and only get fighting games. Outside that, I'll just play PC and my vita. Maybe i'll get a wii-u instead after more games release.
Its not about saving money, its about being able to play whatever I want after buying it.
If I want to buy some rare game and play it then I should be able to. If I want to bring a game over to my friends house to play at a gaming party then I should be able to.
If both ps4/xbox720 don't play used games then I'll buy a ps4 used and only get fighting games. Outside that, I'll just play PC and my vita. Maybe i'll get a wii-u instead after more games release.
Its not about saving money, its about being able to play whatever I want after buying it.
SixMachine
Member
Doesn't also work that way because there are usually multiple games running and people can't afford every game. Not everyone is able to lug their console around for many different reasons, such as being a college student who might have to walk there or someone without a car. A few people who are able to bring their console let everyone run their copies for people to play. Also people share constantly in this type of things. Many times people are asking to borrow sticks to use because sometimes when you move station to station, you might be going onto PS3, when you were on the 360 before.
Sometimes people just want to try out a game they don't own. I wouldn't have touched UMVC3 and SC5 if people didn't their copy just to let people try it out. Plus imagine a much larger tournament, they actually receive a lot of support from volunteers donating their time and their equipment. It'll be an even more logistical mess for them if they had to sort out which console could play what game.
In the US it is established copyright law that physical media used for video game consoles is exempt from the type of license agreements that legally prohibit the reselling of PC software. Physical media made for video game consoles is considered the same as CDs, DVDs, etc... and are governed by the First Sale Doctrine. An important aspect of the First Sale Doctrine is that the original copyright holder cannot interfere with a legal users resale or disposal rights after the initial sale. I would argue that an activation fee does exactly that. The legality of the system you describe is murky at best.
Online passes pass legal muster because it is a specific service you are paying for and dependent on something other than what is on the physical media (the servers, etc...).
Would you buy a new car if you didnt have the option of selling or trading in your present car?
QuicheFontaine
Member
I don't know if that's the main problem, but I think it's a good point. While they're often called pirates for their troubles, the reality is that when it comes to stewardship of historic computer games the general public has done a lot more than games companies.
For example, if I want to play, say, Earthbound what are my options? If I go to the publisher they're obviously not making or selling that cartridge any more. Neither are Nintendo making or selling SNES consoles. But I can guarantee that some public spirited individual has preserved that game by putting the ROM online somewhere. Likewise for old arcade games too.
I think most people sell there games to a retailer not directly to the end user. For the scenario you are describing above it is even worse for pubs because the proceeds from those sales aren't guaranteed to go back into gaming. If I sell a game on eBay for $50 I might use that money to go to the movies. What's scary is that the$1.8B used sales figure doesn't take into account transactions on eBay and other direct selling methods.
We've only been talking about GameStop and not taking into account other retailers who buy and sell used games. Futureshop, bestbuy, amazon all allow credit to be used towards something else other than games, this is even more damaging to pubs and console makers as the "fueling new game sales" argument is even less relevant.
Yes. How else would I get around if public transport wasn't a viable option for me?
Manmademan
Member
False. used games don't just appear out of thin air. someone else bought that game new, then likely traded it in for store credit to buy more new games.
without the ability to trade in games, a lot of users simply buy less new ones. the old ones simply sit in their collection, helping no one.
alternatively, someone else could buy that used copy, and potentially pay for online passes and DLC that add to the publisher bottom line, and the person who traded it in buys a new game- adding to the publisher bottom line. The publisher makes MORE with the used games model, thanks to the existence of DLC.
anyone that claims that used game sales hurt the industry or "do nothing" is full of it.