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Hardware Nobody's talking about VRR

Masterbrew

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Edit to explain: VRR is Variable Refresh Rate - PC users have lived with it for a while in the form of Gsync/Freesync

It's one of my most anticipated features for the next gen consoles and games, yet in all these presentations I've heard no mention of it. Sounds like games are still targeting fixed refresh rates, 30, 60, 120.

Demanding single player experiences like AC Valhalla or Horizon could make great use of variable frame rates in the 40-60 range, rather than conservatively locking to 30fps.

Is VRR monitor/TV ownership so low that developers wont support the feature?
 
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Dontero

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No one cares because no one owns a VRR TV.
They are coming this year or at least they were coming pre corona. LG and Samsung i think had for this year 120fps VRR TVs.

M Masterbrew add what VRR is to OP. Most folks here are console players who wouldn't see difference between GPU and CPU.
 
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Masterbrew

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They are coming this year or at least they were coming pre corona. LG and Samsung i think had for this year 120fps VRR TVs.

M Masterbrew add what VRR is to OP. Most folks here are console players who wouldn't see difference between GPU and CPU.
Sure, added. LG has VRR 40-120hz in their 2019 models as well.
 

Mithos

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I'd own one if I could get a 50" 1080p 120-144hz Freesync/G-sync/VRR TV for around €500-600
 

SixFourMike

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The only thing I don't know about VRR is how it interacts, if at all, with PC GPUs. I know some, like the beloved LG C9, have Freesync + G-Sync, but is that the only way? Or will next gen GPUs have HDMI 2.1 compatibility?

I know DisplayPort reigns supreme for GPUs and monitors, but I haven't heard anything about the future with regards to the above.

Regardless, VRR is a fantastic addition and in 10 years when the technology is widely adopted people will be wondering how they ever lived without it. Tearing is an eyesore. and 30fps caps giving way to, say, 45fps is a promising future. I think we will see more talk once the consoles land, though.
 
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Masterbrew

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Why I asked.

So its basically more like gsync freesync
Yep. VRR is the variable-rate refresh rate standard that TV set manufacturerers and XsX/PS5 will supposedly all support. XsX and PS5 are confirmed to have it, but VRR seems to be still isolated to flagship model new TVs. It's of course not enough from the console makers to support it technically via the HDMI2.1 spec, it also needs to be pushed by developers. They have to include an unlocked fps mode, that preferably stays within the working VRR range - which I believe is 40-120 hz. So dips below 40fps is not good...
 
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Masterbrew

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The only thing I don't know about VRR is how it interacts, if at all, with PC GPUs. I know some, like the beloved LG C9, have Freesync + G-Sync, but is that the only way? Or will next gen GPUs have HDMI 2.1 compatibility?

I know DisplayPort reigns supreme for GPUs and monitors, but I haven't heard anything about the future with regards to the above.

Regardless, VRR is a fantastic addition and in 10 years when the technology is widely adopted people will be wondering how they ever lived without it. Tearing is an eyesore. and 30fps caps giving way to, say, 45fps is a promising future. I think we will see more talk once the consoles land, though.
Yes, next gen GPUs will have HDMI 2.1.
 

V2Tommy

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I own a TV with all of these features. VRR, like HDR, isn't that big a deal. 120hz, colorful games are plenty. I don't need less frames or brighter highlights.
 
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Thirty7ven

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People are talking about Xbox Series S being a viable product because of the amount of people still on 1080p TVs, so you can go ahead and take a guess on just how much VRR matters.
 
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Kuranghi

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I would prefer for developers to optimise their games first, you don't need variable refresh rates if you can rely on consistent GPU and CPU usage to stop from dropping frames, lets try mastering that first lol.

I know the point of VRR is to solve the stutter caused by constantly changing frame-times from inconsistent framerates but its never going to look as good/smooth as actually locking to a refresh rate, just like 1440p reconstructed to 4K isn't the same as native 4K. Not until these DL systems get better.

It will probably be much more important later down the line when we are all pushing hundreds of frames per second to our displays but who knows when that will come, when will devs stop sacrificing fps for graphical effect quality and spatial resolution? I'm gonna bet on, not for a lonnnnng while.

It theoretically great right now for esports and situations where people are not GPU locked though, since they are pushing hundreds of frames per second, although is a massive variance in fps/frametimes really something that rears its head in those cases?

So, while there definitely engines where it can help right now, like RE Engine: its so well optimised but at the same time it performers horribly when it can't maintain a fps lock, horribly stuttering as soon as a single frame is dropped, worse than most engines I've seen. Going back to first point, VRR is kind of a stop gap to fix that problems, but the real solution is for Capcom engineers to make their v-sync implementation/engine handle frame drops better, maybe some kind of dynamic resolution setting?
 

Kuranghi

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I own a TV with all of these features. VRR, like HDR, isn't that big a deal. 120hz, colorful games are plenty. I don't need less frames or brighter highlights.
What TV do you own?

You say HDR has never been impressive to you and you mentioned not being wowed by highlight brightness increase but do you not see increased shadow detail in the HDR you've tried? In my experience I see that a lot of people prefer the SDR presentation because they see the HDR image as washed out. What about HDR showing colours that SDR can't/has to fake?

BTW, I don't mean this to come off as "WHAT YOU CANT SEE THE DIFFERENCE?!?? ITS WAY BETTER YOU SPONG!", because I think most HDR is worse overall than the SDR presentation of said game, I just like hearing difference people experiences with HDR. Devs don't really know what they are doing and some apply it in such a way thats its technically accurate but dark areas appear "washed out" compared to the same place in SDR, like Jedi Fallen Order and Infamous Second Son (although they increased the contrast to compensate for it in I:SS, but thankfully gave us an option to see it how it technically should be shown), while others just apply it in an artistry-led way, like Ori 2 and God of War, which have over done contrast and oversaturated colours that can almost be matched by just boosting the colour setting and lowering the digital black level on your TV. Which you shouldn't be doing unless the source material is fucked.
 

Kuranghi

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Yes, it also has VRR in this mode, forgot to write. I have one like this, it supports VRR also in 4K, but very limited range 48-60Hz. In 1080p the range is much better 48-120Hz.
You are kinda confusing people mate, Hendrick's Hendrick's said that having an 120hz mode on a TV isn't the same as VRR. The fact that your TV has an increased range for VRR in its 120hz vs its 4K@60hz mode doesn't have anything to do with the many TV sets that are out there that have 120hz modes but don't have VRR.
 
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Kuranghi

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Nah mate, I reckon that will be used massively next-gen, probably on most games, its probably going to be the replacement for checkerboarding/older upscaling methods. Devs are more likely to drop the res to 1800p and DLSS it up to 2160p than they are to just leave the game at native 2160p, with framedrops and rely on people owning VRR displays to fix it.
 

MadViking

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You are kinda confusing people mate, Hendrick's Hendrick's said that having an 120hz mode on a TV isn't the same as VRR. The fact that your TV has an increased range for VRR in its 120hz vs its 4K@60hz mode doesn't have anything to do with the many TV sets that are out there that have 120hz modes but don't have VRR.
Ok, sorry about this. What I wanted to say was that there are already inexpensive TVs that support VRR in 4k@60Hz or 1080p@120Hz.
 
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V2Tommy

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What TV do you own?

You say HDR has never been impressive to you and you mentioned not being wowed by highlight brightness increase but do you not see increased shadow detail in the HDR you've tried? In my experience I see that a lot of people prefer the SDR presentation because they see the HDR image as washed out. What about HDR showing colours that SDR can't/has to fake?
LG CX. I've always owned high-end TVs (coming from Panasonic plasma, Sony XSRD projector, most recently) so high-contrast images is a thing I've always been spoiled by. HDR can be impressive (the headlamp on Days Gone while night driving is incredible) but it's not that special compared to high-contrast scenes in colorful games. Again, this is just my observation. I've always had incredible shadow detail in every game because I know what I'm doing. I'm just not impressed with "the way it's supposed to be all along" like some people that have never experienced it before with their budget TVs, crushed blacks and demo mode lightshows.
 
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Portugeezer

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I don't want to hive developers an excuse for their "60 FpSs" game to be 45fps... Just make it 60fps.

Also yeah, not many people own VRR TV, and when they get a 4k TV for next gen it probably won't be VRR.
 
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gspat

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I'm not buying yet another replacement TV because there's a new shiny coming down the pike...

My old TVs work perfectly well thank you.
 

blly155

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I can't live without VRR on PC. I don't miss the days of having to deal with vsync input lag, stuttering, screen tearing.

Buying a gsync monitor was the best thing I did. If I can run a game at 144hz then great but if it bounces between 60-120fps then it's not a problem.

Having it on console will be great even if most games probably will never go over 60fps.

What I think they are doing is targeting 60fps but it won't matter if they can't maintain solid 60fps because if it drops to 40-50 fps it will still feel smooth.

A lot of TVs especially freesync start their vrr range at 48 which sucks. Ideally should get a TV with a range of 40-60. Also if it has LFC then that helps below the VRR Range. So if it drops to under 48/40 then it will still keep it smooth.

My TV supports 120hz too but that doesn't mean it supports VRR. Don't think any TV prior to 2018 supports VRR.
If it's HDMI Forum VRR then I think it is only supported on HDMI 2.1 and 2.0b. not sure about freesync. But yeah just because you have a high refresh rate screen (if it isnt just interpolating) doesn't mean it has vrr. Believe it or not you can actually buy 144hz monitors with neither freesync or gsync!!
 

blly155

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I'm not buying yet another replacement TV because there's a new shiny coming down the pike...

My old TVs work perfectly well thank you.
Maybe they work just fine with current hardware but won't with next gen consoles.

You'll need to update your TV or miss out.
 

Kuranghi

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My TV supports 120hz too but that doesn't mean it supports VRR. Don't think any TV prior to 2018 supports VRR.
Oh I wasn't talking about VRR, I was clearing up confusion with M MadViking about 120hz modes not always having VRR, which mine doesn't. I think you are right about VRR prior to 2018, C8 was first to have it maybe? Or was it a QLED? Q9FN?
 
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gspat

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Maybe they work just fine with current hardware but won't with next gen consoles.

You'll need to update your TV or miss out.
my PS4Pro works fine on 720p TVs, 1080p TVs, and the 4K. It would probably work just fine on the old tube TV as well.

Truthfully, next gen will work perfectly well on them too.

I don't feel I'm "missing out" on anything by not having HDR or now VRR, or the next shiny to sell me a new TV.

I'm not buying yet another new TV until one of them breaks.
 

Kuranghi

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I can't live without VRR on PC. I don't miss the days of having to deal with vsync input lag, stuttering, screen tearing.

Buying a gsync monitor was the best thing I did. If I can run a game at 144hz then great but if it bounces between 60-120fps then it's not a problem.

Having it on console will be great even if most games probably will never go over 60fps.

What I think they are doing is targeting 60fps but it won't matter if they can't maintain solid 60fps because if it drops to 40-50 fps it will still feel smooth.


A lot of TVs especially freesync start their vrr range at 48 which sucks. Ideally should get a TV with a range of 40-60. Also if it has LFC then that helps below the VRR Range. So if it drops to under 48/40 then it will still keep it smooth.



If it's HDMI Forum VRR then I think it is only supported on HDMI 2.1 and 2.0b. not sure about freesync. But yeah just because you have a high refresh rate screen (if it isnt just interpolating) doesn't mean it has vrr. Believe it or not you can actually buy 144hz monitors with neither freesync or gsync!!
I can see why that would be ace, just not worrying about v-sync is such a weight off, as you say, gives you freedom to push that extra setting or go up a bit in resolution and not have to worry about hitting 100% GPU usage.

I favour 4K/generally increasing resolution over 60hz+, I need to spend time using a low response rate display that has a 120hz+ refresh rate to see if what I consider more important.

I tried 1440p@120hz on my TV for Doom and Prey and it was really nice, smooth, I could "see more" in the super fast Doom kill animations and Prey mimics moving around, but it wasn't worth the resolution trade off for me, but I'm on a 65" screen at 6" so its easier to notice aliasing, etc and I also suspect the response time of the TV is lessening the benefit of 120hz due to smearing so I'll can't say I've really had the proper 120hz+ experience yet.
 

Kuranghi

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my PS4Pro works fine on 720p TVs, 1080p TVs, and the 4K. It would probably work just fine on the old tube TV as well.

Truthfully, next gen will work perfectly well on them too.

I don't feel I'm "missing out" on anything by not having HDR or now VRR, or the next shiny to sell me a new TV.

I'm not buying yet another new TV until one of them breaks.
We promise we won't force you to buy a new TV.

I don't know if you use your PC on the TV as well, but a great benefit of 4K that hardly anyone talks about is that right now I'm watching a PIP of a video while I browse the forum, the video is still really high quality even though its a 10-inch across box in the cover, so I save time in my life and it looks better. Maybe the quality increase means nothing to you vs. me but surely everyone wants to save time in their lives?

Its like having a "faster" computer, even if you are doing limited video or photo work you will waste less of your own time if the work is done faster, obviously you don't need to get a newer, better/faster version of anything you have until it breaks down for good, but I dunno, make your life more fun/convenient if you can I say.

I'm not mad or anything, just feel like you are missing out, either that or I'm just a greasy salesman at heart haha. Obviously ultimately though, you do you mate 👍
 
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Mister Wolf

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What kind of games do you play? Do you spend much time tweaking graphics settings for games that you play?
Right now im playing Halo anniversary on PC. I wouldn't say I spend alot of time tweaking. Having access to VRR means even less time tweaking because the framerate fluctuating is no longer an issue.
 
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Kuranghi

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FPSes definitely suffer worst from frametime changes so that makes sense. I have to give that a try, I'm waiting for all of the original campaigns (1-3) to be out so I can play it all together, or has that already happened?

Also if you don't find tweaking very fun VRR is the ultimate boon.
 

01011001

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I mean... I have an Xbox One X and a freesync ultimate TV... so that's not a super new feature for me
 

Ar¢tos

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Our attention spans are very limited ok?
Right now we are bickering and bitch-slapping each others over SSD's and 2tflops, when this calms down we can pay attention to VRR (again).
Add it to GAF arguments backlog.
 

GymWolf

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Is the only feature that it's gonna make me switch tv when hdmi 2.1 is gonna be a standard, if it work like a gsync monitor people are in for a fucking treat.
 
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Masterbrew

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I own a TV with all of these features. VRR, like HDR, isn't that big a deal. 120hz, colorful games are plenty. I don't need less frames or brighter highlights.
Gawd, this line of thinking halts progress of humanity. VRR and HDR are BOTH huge deals! 120hz vsync is more input latency than 110hz ish VRR. Not having to worry about never crossing some minimum fps boundary is a huge deal.

If you aren’t yet sold on HDR, be it in games or movies, your TV must have rubbish HDR.