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North Korea missile launch thread for September 15. 2017
- Thread starter ponpo
- Start date
Muffin1611
Banned
What's your suggestion?
1) NK sucks. Awful awful brutal regime, no regard for human life etc. Terrible
2) NK watched US and partners walk into Iraq drag Saddam Hussein out of a hole and parade him around shaming him then killing him to death. All the while, Iraq barely had a dozen short range scuds, like 5 soviet era tanks, and like 2 hand grenades. No WMDS. Saddam was a bad dude, corrupt and also didn't care about human rights. Tens of Thousands died under his rule. Evil to be sure. But he wasn't a threat to the world. He had no weapons. And the US took him out..
Kim Jong Jr isn't taking that chance, and why would he? Everyone wants him dead or stripped of power. He has no choice, and that's why this won't end well. They will never give up nukes in our lifetime. But they'll never fire one at anyone either, cause they would be reduced to ash and they know it. so we just have to live with it until change comes from within.
2) NK watched US and partners walk into Iraq drag Saddam Hussein out of a hole and parade him around shaming him then killing him to death. All the while, Iraq barely had a dozen short range scuds, like 5 soviet era tanks, and like 2 hand grenades. No WMDS. Saddam was a bad dude, corrupt and also didn't care about human rights. Tens of Thousands died under his rule. Evil to be sure. But he wasn't a threat to the world. He had no weapons. And the US took him out..
Kim Jong Jr isn't taking that chance, and why would he? Everyone wants him dead or stripped of power. He has no choice, and that's why this won't end well. They will never give up nukes in our lifetime. But they'll never fire one at anyone either, cause they would be reduced to ash and they know it. so we just have to live with it until change comes from within.
If it is seen that they are getting too close to miniaturization of the nukes (which analyst predicts could be within a year or 2), then I would use the military option.
Only other thing that may bring NK to it's knees is if the world sanctions NK from any and everything, but that won't happen because China and Russia are on the Security Council and some countries like to smuggle things into NK.
A military option, while it would have enormous cost, would not only deal with this issue, but knock out NK completely and help/save the North Korean people. A sacrifice I feel is worth making personally.
eatingforwork
Member
Eesh, tell that to the millions of folks in Korea, notably Seoul. They're the ones who are going to end up taking the brunt of any retaliation of a military option that happened. For me, just let them have their nukes. They won't use them because they know what the repercussions would be and the end result (Kim's out of power, regime collapses). They only want them as a deterrence to a regime change by force.
Yes and let the next country that wants nukes have it too... Oh so now the other country wants one because his enemy have one? Let him have one too! I am sure none of them would use it, because they all know the repercussions. Yeah, see, I don't agree with that especially knowing nukes were almost used again several times.
It is their desire for nuclear weapons that is increasing the chances of a regime change. They have China back them and Seoul held hostage, which is enough to keep U.S from wanting regime change.
eatingforwork
Member
And that's the crux of the issue. Diplomatically, there's no real solution. Especially when China and Russia don't play ball. They'll talk big, but both benefit from having NK rattle their sabres because it destabilizes the region for the US and its allies. Militarily, there's no solution because it would put South Korea in the immediate crosshairs and the loss of life and refugee crisis would be ridiculous.
As for letting them have the nukes, maybe I was a bit hasty. But, that's where this path is already almost at, with sanctions and the rest of the world trying to stop it. Nukes are an insurance measure for that regime and, true, the reason why the rest of the world wants the regime out. It's a catch-22. But, as a parent you learn something pretty quickly - sometimes it's smarter to give in to the tantrum, especially if you know that it's not going to amount to anything in the long term.
And PS - nuclear deterrence is a valid theory and practice. Not entirely provable in the long run, but the idea that a country knowing the repercussions of using nuclear weapons against another country is a major motivating factor in them not using them. Also, when were nukes "almost used again several times"?
Muffin1611
Banned
...Yes?
NK Missiles 2017 |OT| Fire and Fury over Hokkaido
Fanciful bullshit. Any collapse of the regime would immediately see millions of starving North Koreans fleeing into China creating the biggest humanitarian disaster since WWII. What was once NK would need international support for decades just to stop it becoming a wasteland like something out of Mad Max. And that doesn't take into account the tsunami of KPA weaponry that would hit the global arms market following any collapse of the state.
Can the Bombs Away Brigade please think before posting.
Raven117
Member
Sadly, after decades of the world kicking the can down the road when it came to NK, NK will have nukes. Truly a failure in foreign policy of epic proportions spanning many administrations.
There will be no military option. Its simply not feasible. Soeul would be decimated. Millions dead. Is there a way to somehow evacuate Soeul before a military strike, I guess possibly, but thats not really an option either.
Really, the issue is that the time for a decision has come and gone. There are no other options.
NK Is a nuclear power and further it will serve to make other countries seek the nuke (aka, Iran). Simply because it does indeed act as an insurance policy.
Give up nukes? Get toppled. (Quadifi (sp) Hussain (sp)) Have them? Don't get toppled. (NK).
Edit: From a theoretical standpoint, yes, it would make sense to take out NK to show the world that there will be no nuclear proliferation...But the practical cost at this point (and in this situation) is simply too high. If you could somehow protect Souel though......
There will be no military option. Its simply not feasible. Soeul would be decimated. Millions dead. Is there a way to somehow evacuate Soeul before a military strike, I guess possibly, but thats not really an option either.
Really, the issue is that the time for a decision has come and gone. There are no other options.
NK Is a nuclear power and further it will serve to make other countries seek the nuke (aka, Iran). Simply because it does indeed act as an insurance policy.
Give up nukes? Get toppled. (Quadifi (sp) Hussain (sp)) Have them? Don't get toppled. (NK).
Edit: From a theoretical standpoint, yes, it would make sense to take out NK to show the world that there will be no nuclear proliferation...But the practical cost at this point (and in this situation) is simply too high. If you could somehow protect Souel though......
Well aware of this, so you are the one that should think before posting.
No one said or implied it would be an easy task, we are talking about a huge chunk of the population in concentration camps, terribly malnourished, and without any education. So yes, it will be a "humanitarian disaster", but one of the few that is actually a good thing if handled correctly. It still don't change the fact, that ending the North Korean regime WILL help the North Korean people. That isn't "fanciful bullshit", that is facts, unless you are arguing that North Koreans are better off dying in droves, being tortured in mass, and getting brainwashed under the Kim regime is them being better off.
If you really believe that bullshit, then you have much higher faith in humanity than I ever will, or you are not aware of just how many times nukes were almost used and took outside pressure or a miracle decision on one man to prevent it.
paperboywriter
Member
Lol
The US sells parts of the Aegis Missile defense system to a few countries, Japan being one of them.
Muffin1611
Banned
Jesus Christ
Because NK is shooting test rockets they didn't "almost use nukes"
And mutual assured destruction is not bullshit, it's a fact, even a middle schooler knows how it works
So what you think will happen is that somebody will inevitably say "Yeah, let's use a nuke to destroy my enemies", resulting in "Hey, maybe wasn't such a good idea now that I see all the nukes coming at me right now".
Who does this? Even assuming that instant retaliation wouldn't happen, noboby is stupid enough to test it, that's how large the implications are
Let me sum up a "Let's go to war" situation in this case:
-US decides to attack
-NK bombs Seoul and other cities near the border into oblivion with artillery, resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths if they're lucky, because some of it got destroyed in time and Seoul bombing shelters were good enough, over a million if not. In the first few days of such an intervention.
-NK citizens flee to China resulting in a humanitarian crisis
So, to prevent that maybe possibly someone is stupid enough to use a nuke that would result in their own destruction, you rather attack them resulting in a great death count for your allies there (???)
Youre probably right and South Korea agrees.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...n-for-nuclear-weapons/?utm_term=.1e11566fada7
The west had their fun, now its time for an asian nuclear arms race. A cold war is better than a world war after all..
The Cold War was a world war, just one where the US and Russia didn't directly engage one another, using proxies and satellite states instead, and directly caused the deaths of tens of millions. Now that those states are getting their own deterrence, what kind of "cold war" can be had?
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Yes the numerous car owners and gas stations in North Korea
SuperEpicMan
Banned
Can we not post fake tweets, he spouts enough bullshit as it is, and I feel it only really promotes disinformation. I mean at least mark it as fake.
Edit: unless it was a tweet he has deleted of course.
Edit2: Fuck me its real. Sorry.
Edit: unless it was a tweet he has deleted of course.
Edit2: Fuck me its real. Sorry.
Smiles and Cries
Member
Rocket Man?
eh this dude
SuperEpicMan
Banned
Sorry, I checked his feed to see if it was real, but didn't notice it was from earlier today. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. I have edited my post.
FloppyDelux
Member
Rocket Man?
Thought this was editied using HTML, but it wasn't....
Because all it takes is a simple miscalculation and as I said several times, the world narrowly avoiding nuclear wars.
MAD only applies between those with enough nukes to wipe the other country off the map. I clearly said I would not agree with letting another nation obtain nukes because that can lead to a domino effect. What do you think would of happened if we let Iran obtain nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles to launch it with? You think the Saudis and the rest wouldn't start grabbing some of their own?
This isn't just about North Korea in my book, so yes, the risk is worth it to me.