NPD Sales Results for November 2015 [Up3: Combined Hardware For PS4 + XB1 + Wii U]

thuway

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You are complaining about scheduling and bring up Until Dawn as an example of doing it right.

Clearly it doesn't take a genius that you can't complain about scheduling problems while praising a game that had massive scheduling problems.
If I may, I should preface that I meant Until Dawn was one of the few games that were in-home Sony projects that managed to outperform expectations both critically and commercially. I should be more clear. Also, I didn't know it was announed in 2012. Sorry mate.
 

Y2Kev

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Why are those leadership failures? You fault ND and SSM for trashing crap projects but also Sony for releasing Knack.

Not every game is going to be rated 9/10.
 

Massa

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Time to triangle isn't about getting your shiny AAA bloated productions faster, it's about opening up a much wider range of games on console. For example, Rocket League has more than 7 million players on PS4..
 

Y2Kev

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Time to triangle isn't about getting your shiny AAA bloated productions faster, it's about opening up a much wider range of games on console. For example, Rocket League has more than 7 million players on PS4..
Why wouldn't something benefitting one also benefit the other? Seems like bitterness for no reason.
 

thuway

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Why are those leadership failures? You fault ND and SSM for trashing crap projects but also Sony for releasing Knack.

Not every game is going to be rated 9/10.
I'm not calling any isolated incident evidence of "leadership failure", but rather- the entire chain of events have led to - IMO - a rather poor showing of Sony's WWS. I'm a huge fan of Sony's First Party, but the first few years of PS4 felt like a series of rush jobs, cancelled projects, and delays.

Honestly though, the first half of 2016 looks absolutely FIRE - and I couldn't be more hyped for the impending Street Fighter V, Ratchet and Clank, and Uncharted 4 trifecta ^_^.
 

benny_a

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These are the leadership options:

Greenlighting games
Cancel games
Increase budget by means of delay

All those come with decisions that will affect your employees including studio expansions or closures etc.

Why wouldn't something benefitting one also benefit the other? Seems like bitterness for no reason.
To be fair, the context in which Cerny said that was about the fucked up documentation in the PS2 + PS3 era and the unwieldy architecture. Just getting the first thing on screen was a nightmare on PS3, which is now much improved.
 

Y2Kev

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Why is that fair? Fixing that benefits everyone. It's not like AAa studios didn't also have difficulty getting stuff running on PS3.
 

Yurikerr

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I'm not calling any isolated incident evidence of "leadership failure", but rather- the entire chain of events have led to - IMO - a rather poor showing of Sony's WWS. I'm a huge fan of Sony's First Party, but the first few years of PS4 felt like a series of rush jobs, cancelled projects, and delays.

Honestly though, the first half of 2016 looks absolutely FIRE - and I couldn't be more hyped for the impending Street Fighter V, Ratchet and Clank, and Uncharted 4 trifecta ^_^.
If U4 hit 98 MC and sell more than 10 million copies you are going to excuse it from your "shame" list?

I don't understand this. On the same post you aggregated games that were delayed, creating holes in the schedule and games that didn't launch to critical acclaim.

If i'm understanding it right you think that the poor games should had been better and we know that one way of doing this is by delays or outright completely rework. This would create another schedule problem.

See i don't know how Sony can win if everyone thinks like you. The only way is if they release an universal acclaim game every quarter. And sorry, but that's impossible.

And personally this strikes me as odd coming from you Thuway, you're a guy that have connection in game industry, you should know better than most that producing games is not a matter of following a recipe. Yoshida can't guarantee that a game will be stellar and maybe we even thought that the games that you think are trash are good, who knows....
 

benny_a

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Why is that fair? Fixing that benefits everyone. It's not like AAa studios didn't also have difficulty getting stuff running on PS3.
It absolutely does benefit everyone.

Developers on PS3 did have difficulty and Sony paid for having the architecture the way it was by shitty ports and bad press. But AAA studios are expected to just work around that and get it done no matter how difficult.

But the context for T-T-T was just getting something initially up on screen, not that all technical challenges related to making a game vanish.
 

thuway

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If U4 hit 98 MC and sell more than 10 million copies you are going to excuse it from your "shame" list?

I don't understand this. On the same post you aggregated games that were delayed, creating holes in the schedule and games that didn't launch to critical acclaim.

If i'm understanding it right you thing that the poor games should had been better and we know that one way of doing this is by delays or outright completely rework. This would create another schedule problem.

See i don't know how Sony can win if everyone thinks like you. The only way is if they release an universal acclaim game every quarter. And sorry, but that's impossible.

And personally this strikes me as odd coming from you Thuway, you're a guy that have connection in game industry, you should know better than most that producing games is not a matter of following a recipe. Yoshida can't guarantee that a game will be stellar and maybe we even thought that the games that you think are trash are good, who knows....
Easy man :/, I'm not saying every game needs to sell 10 million units or be a 98 on metacritic. I'm not saying this falls on Yoshida's shoulders, and I'm not saying game design is something formulaic. I'm pointing out that SCE's first few years of PS4 - in their own words- has been "sparse". For logical and respectable reasons.

I understand why. I appreciate why. Rebooting, retooling, and insuring the future of the WWS is an opportunity that doesn't come by often and I think its a pretty brave thing to do so. Sony's First Party is going through some pretty serious changes, and I'm sure the fruits of their labour will be absolutely amazing- but I am just pointing out that earlier in the generation WWS efforts didn't exactly light the world on fire. That's all.

Besides Bloodborne was fantastic and PS4 sales couldn't be better, so as far as "market leadership" goes- they are doing it right. :)
 

gundamkyoukai

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While Sony WWS have mess up this gen in some ways i don't see how PS3 was so much better early on like some people are saying .
Funny enough they have less bombs than they did on PS3 early on so business wise they doing something right .
 

vpance

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Then you have to consider PS VR, which is a big wild card. If it becomes a hit, that's just more incentive for Sony to extend the PS4's lifespan.
Actually, I wonder if it could be a catalyst to shorten the lifespan. Sort of like trying to avoid the Wii situation, where everyone began throwing them in their closets 3-4 years post launch because no new interesting content or upgrades came along in time.
 

benny_a

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Funny enough they have less bombs than they did on PS3 early on so business wise they doing something right .
For someone that likes creative risks the best scenario is that these games don't sell well, but merely okay so they don't get turned into mega franchises. I think they should merely exist to diversify the portfolio.

You can see with Naughty Dog games how the siren song of the post-release monetization is too hard to resist when you have a bigger franchise.
 

Yurikerr

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Jun 3, 2013
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I'm not saying this falls on Yoshida's shoulders, and I'm not saying game design is something formulaic. I'm pointing out that SCE's first few years of PS4 - in their own words- has been "sparse".

I understand why. I appreciate why. Rebooting, retooling, and insuring the future of the WWS is an opportunity that doesn't come by often and I think its a pretty brave thing to do so. Sony's First Party is going through some pretty serious changes, and I'm sure the fruits of their labour will be absolutely amazing- but I am just pointing out that earlier in the generation WWS efforts didn't exactly light the world on fire. That's all.

Besides Bloodborne was fantastic and PS4 sales couldn't be better, so as far as "market leadership" goes- they are doing it right. :)
As you were agreeing with Orochi and even said that: "PS4 might be doing incredibly well, but that doesn't excuse SCE's malady of poor decisions" i assumed you were blaming mostly Yoshida.

Comparing it to the PS3's or even PS2's first years is Ps4 doing that bad in relation to first-party?

And saying that you understand and appreciate why they current output is sparse goes completely against your original point that you don't excuse their poor decisions. And i don't agree that having some games that aren't exactly great is a poor management decision, it just happens. They can't get it right 100% of the times.

I'm just trying to understand how you really feel about it. =)
 

gundamkyoukai

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For someone that likes creative risks the best scenario is that these games don't sell well, but merely okay so they don't get turned into mega franchises. I think they should merely exist to diversify the portfolio.

You can see with Naughty Dog games how the siren song of the post-release monetization is too hard to resist when you have a bigger franchise.
Well the creative stuff going to happen on DD but that was expected .
 

benny_a

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What does that have to do with Shu doing a terrible job?
I don't think he does a terrible job and clearly whatever job he is doing based on the actual sales data that we have access to means that it's absolute inconsequential.

Maybe it hasn't been clear the last few times we've exchanged posts on this topic but they could close down and lay off everyone in SCEWWS and the PS4 would still be a very successful platform. So cry moar?
 

RPGamer92

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I would like to see the alternate universe where Santa Monica's cancelled IP wasn't cancelled and Amy Hennig's Uncharted 4 came out this holiday. Would be interesting.
 

EGM1966

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Time to Triangle has nothing to do with SCE's poor leadership with first party efforts.

PS4 might be doing incredibly well, but that doesn't excuse SCE's malady of poor decisions. As a huge fan of PS3's first party efforts - this is aggravating, but it makes sense. As market leaders- WWS took this generation as an opportunity to reboot studios, cut fat, and try and catapult studios stuck in purgatory into something much greater.


However- I agree with some of the posters above- SCE's First Party/Second Party work this generation is a blazing glory of mediocore. The timeline of mishaps speaks for itself:

1. At launch Knack and Killzone were critically panned. Despite good intentions of having first party software at launch, both games are more or less the butt end of jokes.
2. Sony Santa Monica's new IP was cancelled and left a huge gap in the Fall release schedule last year.
3. InFamous Second Son and Little Big Planet 3 are the weakest iterations in their respective franchises.
4. The Order: 1886 backfired into an oblivion I haven't seen for quite some time.
5. Drive Club (while incredible in it's current form) launched without the ability to function as advertised.
6. Naughty Dog trashed and rebooted an entire Uncharted game leaving another massive release schedule omission.

Bloodborne and Until Dawn are really the two shining examples of "we did it right." 2016 looks like an incredible year, but they really need to step their game up because PS4's WWS is a shell of what PS3 offered.
Looking at other games the difference seems to be either broken games shoved out to meet deadlines (AC Unity, MCC and so on) or they're rough around the edges as launch or early release window titles (Dead Rising 3, Forza 5 plus some f the games you mentioned) or they take time or get delayed.

Bottom line on consoles producing a well optimised big budget game seems to have gotten much harder (perhaps the number of platforms contributes too) and TBH all things considered I'd rather Sonys approach (be bold and cancel games not working out, push back games to allow them to be properly polished, etc) than the more MS and Western dev approach of shoving them out regardless then if they do find an audience dropping 5GB plus patches in an effort to fix things post release.

Myself I think the competitive need to release often and hit announced dates is taking a heavy tool this gen. Nobody (not even Nintendo really) has been cranking out terrific games with high production values quickly.

I see no major error or outlier for Sony vs anyone else. Not being defensive just noting it's an industry wide issue so far as I can see just with different studios taking different approaches.

Couple of points to your list. While exclusive The Order was a RAD game and ironically was one of the few big titles to actually ship very polished technically. It wasn't good but that's clearly on RAD not Sony so far as I can see as they merely published it and gave general backing to RAD.

And poor old Driceclub was clearly a one in s million outlier. They delayed it as d prefer to polish it, it launched apparently in decent shape technically but with the kind of bug in the server code design that's a major horror story. I always want to cut it some slack as while it was deserving of criticism unlike obviously broken games rushed out it was instead clearly the victim of the rare code issue that passes internal tests and only surfaces in the wild.

Not that there's not an issue of sorts in principle: but it seems to be more about development process for AAA games with increasing complexity and content vs tighter schedule and increasing external business demands (game has to be ready for Christmas vs when would game actually be reasdy).

I can only assume that if, for example, most similar MS titles had been delayed to be properly completed and bug free the number of exclusives would look similarly weak.

From another perspective I'm not sure it matters that much competitively at market anyway. Sales make it clear the big multiplatfofm games are way more important for driving console sales than exclusives anyway.
 

Conduit

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While Sony WWS have mess up this gen in some ways i don't see how PS3 was so much better early on like some people are saying .
Funny enough they have less bombs than they did on PS3 early on so business wise they doing something right .
Bloodborne, The Order, MLB, Until Dawn, Tearaway...enough for this year. I only counted Sony's IP. That's not enough??? MS had less of its IP's, but they got a free pass. How so?

Unbeliavable. Some people are blind as fuck.
 

gundamkyoukai

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Bloodborne, The Order, MLB, Until Dawn, Tearaway...enough for this year. I only counted Sony's IP. That's not enough??? MS had less of its IP's, but they got a free pass. How so?

Unbeliavable. Some people are blind as fuck.
I am talking about how some games get delay so far this gen comapre to the early PS3 era .
I don't have a problem with Sony out put this gen so far .
In fact this gen has been so much better than early last gen for me be it 3rd part of 1st party .
 

wapplew

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I think aside from receptions, WWS mostly maintain their pace on title release.
ND release TLOU in 2013, Uncharted 4 in 2016, 3 years cycle.
SCEJ release Knack in 2014, GR2 and TLG in 2016, 2 years cycle.
Maybe only Sony Bend and SSM a spent little long cause some project cancel, I think they'll be fine once thier PS4 pipeline is complete might back to 2 years cycle.
 

Melchiah

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While Sony WWS have mess up this gen in some ways i don't see how PS3 was so much better early on like some people are saying .
Funny enough they have less bombs than they did on PS3 early on so business wise they doing something right .
I always get the impression those people are comparing the starting years of PS4 to the last years of PS3, and that's not really a good comparison. It would be better to compare the first two years of both platforms, but I guess that wouldn't fit the narrative as well. Much like complaints about the lack of retail titles on PS+ now, when there weren't (m)any fresh-out-of-the-oven retail titles offered in the service last gen either.
 

ethomaz

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While Sony WWS have mess up this gen in some ways i don't see how PS3 was so much better early on like some people are saying .
Funny enough they have less bombs than they did on PS3 early on so business wise they doing something right .
Sony released 3 new ips (1 GOTY, 1 great game and 1 failure) and 1 old ips (MLB) this year... how they did mess up?

It is funny to see people applauding the others companies that added nothing new (well Nintendi did create something new and good) while Sony get trashed releasing new games the whole year.

What MS or Nintendo released this year?

BTW the same happened last year... Sony is dealing new games each 3 months but some people are blind enought to not see that.

The PS4 first-party library > PS3 first-party library for the first 2 years.
 

gundamkyoukai

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Sony released 3 new ips (1 GOTY, 1 great game and 1 failure) and 1 old ips (MLB) this year... how they did mess up?

It is funny to see people applauding the others companies that added nothing new (well Nintendi did create something new and good) while Sony get trashed releasing new games the whole year.

What MS or Nintendo released this year?

BTW the same happened last year... Sony is dealing new games each 3 months but some people are blind enought to not see that.

The PS4 first-party library > PS3 first-party library for the first 2 years.
And it would have been even better if not for all the delays they had .
Which what i talking about .
I don't remember them delaying some many games early last gen .
 

vpance

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From another perspective I'm not sure it matters that much competitively at market anyway. Sales make it clear the big multiplatfofm games are way more important for driving console sales than exclusives anyway.
Yep. It's really only disappointing for the core Sony fans. The misstep with Stig's game was a huge fuck up though, no doubt about it.

Even if they didn't lite the charts on fire, I still enjoyed Infamous and TO (for the graphics).
 

wapplew

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And it would have been even better if not for all the delays they had .
Which what i talking about .
I don't remember them delaying some many games early last gen .
What many games get delay? Only Uncharted 4 had a lengthy delay come to mind, what else?
Infamous SS delay for a month?
 

Y2Kev

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I don't think Yoshida should be faulted for delays; I think he should be thanked for delays. At his level, he has three possible decisions-- delay game, do not delay game (force release), cancel game. That he's opted to delay a game in every case but one (the SSM game, and that could have had development extended a few times too) is a virtue.

Do I wish the SSM studio heads were able to turn Darkside around? Yes, absolutely. But part of why I like Sony is that they give their established hitmakers a lot of leeway. Yamauchi gets a lot of time. Stig, who just shipped probably Sony's biggest game EVER, was given a lot of time and money. Even Ueda was given more time than any other studio on the planet would give him, and I truly believe that. Even Loli Jumper 2 has had a really long time in the oven.

Do I think that will happen much anymore? No. Sony's turned Playstation into a cash flow machine. But I don't get mad at Yoshida for giving ND another month. Good christ, the reaction in that thread was typical no perspective nonsense.
 

ethomaz

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And it would have been even better if not for all the delays they had .
Which what i talking about .
I don't remember them delaying some many games early last gen .
They delayed PS3 for a whole year.
If they released in the schedule I doubt games will be launched at the right time.

Outside Uncharted 4 and DRIVECLUB I don't see any other important delay.
 

DeepEnigma

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I don't think Yoshida should be faulted for delays; I think he should be thanked for delays. At his level, he has three possible decisions-- delay game, do not delay game (force release), cancel game. That he's opted to delay a game in every case but one (the SSM game, and that could have had development extended a few times too) is a virtue.

Do I wish the SSM studio heads were able to turn Darkside around? Yes, absolutely. But part of why I like Sony is that they give their established hitmakers a lot of leeway. Yamauchi gets a lot of time. Stig, who just shipped probably Sony's biggest game EVER, was given a lot of time and money. Even Ueda was given more time than any other studio on the planet would give him, and I truly believe that. Even Loli Jumper 2 has had a really long time in the oven.

Do I think that will happen much anymore? No. Sony's turned Playstation into a cash flow machine. But I don't get mad at Yoshida for giving ND another month. Good christ, the reaction in that thread was typical no perspective nonsense.
Completely agreed with this. I am glad there are delays when needed. More polish, and gives me more time for the backlog. People can't honestly be caught up with their backlog enough to complain about this on a realistic level. Complaining seems to be for the sake of. I almost fist pumped when UC4 was delayed a month, lol.
 

Primethius

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It's not a Sony exclusive thing for delays to occur this generation. We've seen how much more resource intensive development has gotten. Most titles are either in development for longer or have been delayed.

You only have to look at the original early 2016 line up to see that.
 

Conduit

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And it would have been even better if not for all the delays they had .
Which what i talking about .
I don't remember them delaying some many games early last gen .
But Sony released more IPs on PS4 than on PS3 in the SAME TIMEFRAME even with the delays.

Your point isn't valid
 
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I don't think he does a terrible job and clearly whatever job he is doing based on the actual sales data that we have access to means that it's absolute inconsequential.

Maybe it hasn't been clear the last few times we've exchanged posts on this topic but they could close down and lay off everyone in SCEWWS and the PS4 would still be a very successful platform. So cry moar?
Again what does that have to do with someone doing a bad job? I do not have stock for Sony, so why would I or you care if WWS is irrelevant to Sony's success? Your point is pointless unless you have stock or are into the fanboy nonsense.
 

QaaQer

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Time to Triangle has nothing to do with SCE's poor leadership with first party efforts.

PS4 might be doing incredibly well, but that doesn't excuse SCE's malady of poor decisions. As a huge fan of PS3's first party efforts - this is aggravating, but it makes sense. As market leaders- WWS took this generation as an opportunity to reboot studios, cut fat, and try and catapult studios stuck in purgatory into something much greater.


However- I agree with some of the posters above- SCE's First Party/Second Party work this generation is a blazing glory of mediocore. The timeline of mishaps speaks for itself:

1. At launch Knack and Killzone were critically panned. Despite good intentions of having first party software at launch, both games are more or less the butt end of jokes.
2. Sony Santa Monica's new IP was cancelled and left a huge gap in the Fall release schedule last year.
3. InFamous Second Son and Little Big Planet 3 are the weakest iterations in their respective franchises.
4. The Order: 1886 backfired into an oblivion I haven't seen for quite some time.
5. Drive Club (while incredible in it's current form) launched without the ability to function as advertised.
6. Naughty Dog trashed and rebooted an entire Uncharted game leaving another massive release schedule omission.

Bloodborne and Until Dawn are really the two shining examples of "we did it right." 2016 looks like an incredible year, but they really need to step their game upbecause PS4's WWS is a shell of what PS3 offered.
So what they did right was give From money to make Bloodborne and let the Until Dawn team salvage an old move game, which they then provided zero marketing for? Dont forget that the only reason bloodborne exists is because Sony thought Demon's Souls was garbage.

I think shu and wws are competent and workmanlike. They make and fund decent aaa games with reasonable budgets that stick to well trod focus grouped paths. In short, they are a corporation making mass market products. Idk why anyone would expect anything more from them.

And yes they do occasionally release interesting titles like Everyone's Gone to Rapture. But their involvement isnt anything different from EA or whatever. This is what the director Jessica Curry wrote about it,

So much of the stress that I experienced was caused by what I see as the desperately toxic relationship that I was in [with Sony]. I look back at the way we were treated and it still makes me shake my head with disbelief.

I want to surround myself with honest, open people whom I can trust. I've heard so many people say, 'well, this is just the way publishers are' and 'this is just what the games industry is like'.
It is best with Sony games to expect nothing but middle of the road AAA stuff.
 

benny_a

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Yep. It's really only disappointing for the core Sony fans. The misstep with Stig's game was a huge fuck up though, no doubt about it.
But the misstep was allowing the project to continue for so many months instead of canceling it early. It wasn't to cancel it period, because that happens all the time it wasn't quickly enough identified that they failed to get to the fun part.

If anything they get too much leeway if you want consistent quality. Sometimes that stuff works out and sometimes it doesn't.

Again what does that have to do with someone doing a bad job? I do not have stock for Sony, so why would I or you care if WWS is irrelevant to Sony's success? Your point is pointless unless you have stock or are into the fanboy nonsense.
This is a sales thread. In it we discuss sales and variables affecting the sales.

The clue about that is the "sales" part in the thread title. Go and talk about how terrible Yoshida is in a thread that doesn't pertain to sales.
 

Melchiah

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Looking at other games the difference seems to be either broken games shoved out to meet deadlines (AC Unity, MCC and so on) or they're rough around the edges as launch or early release window titles (Dead Rising 3, Forza 5 plus some f the games you mentioned) or they take time or get delayed.

Bottom line on consoles producing a well optimised big budget game seems to have gotten much harder (perhaps the number of platforms contributes too) and TBH all things considered I'd rather Sonys approach (be bold and cancel games not working out, push back games to allow them to be properly polished, etc) than the more MS and Western dev approach of shoving them out regardless then if they do find an audience dropping 5GB plus patches in an effort to fix things post release.

...
It seems to me, that Microsoft is more willing to put uncooked stuff out just to meet deadlines, when it suits the needs of the company. Hell, to my knowledge they put the 360 out knowing there might be hardware issues, just to get ahead of their competitors. The same probably applied to MCC, as they most likely didn't want their best chance to increase the sales to miss the important holiday season. It seems to have bitten them in the ass in the long run, as the decisions lead to the decreasing popularity of the franchise.
 

Y2Kev

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So what they did right was give From money to make Bloodborne and let the Until Dawn team salvage an old move game, which they then provided zero marketing for? Dont forget that the only reason bloodborne exists is because Sony thought Demon's Souls was garbage.

I think shu and wws are competent and workmanlike. They make and fund decent aaa games with reasonable budgets that stick to well trod focus grouped paths. In short, they are a corporation making mass market products. Idk why anyone would expect anything more from them.

And yes they do occasionally release interesting titles like Everyone's Gone to Rapture. But their involvement isnt anything different from EA or whatever. This is what the director Jessica Curry wrote about it,



It is best with Sony games to expect nothing but middle of the road AAA stuff.
Extremely unfair. Where is EA greenlighting games like Dreams?
 

gundamkyoukai

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This is a sales thread. In it we discuss sales and variables affecting the sales.

The clue about that is the "sales" part in the thread title. Go and talk about how terrible Yoshida is in a thread that doesn't pertain to sales.
When it comes to sales i don't think anyone can say Yoshida is failing .
Sony games have been selling rather good no matter what people think of them .
 

vpance

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But the misstep was allowing the project to continue for so many months instead of canceling it early. It wasn't to cancel it period, because that happens all the time it wasn't quickly enough identified that they failed to get to the fun part.

If anything they get too much leeway if you want consistent quality. Sometimes that stuff works out and sometimes it doesn't.
The misstep might have actually been letting Stig lead it in the first place, and maybe too much freedom at the studio in general. IIRC Barlog basically set the table for Stig with GOW3 before he left anyways. Having a seasoned lead or visionary on new development can't be overlooked.
 

benny_a

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I would love it if third party pubs green-lighted more games like TLG.
Ubisoft is becoming pretty good at it. I'm sure whenever they do something new like For Honor and it becomes successful it will have been obvious and lazy or whatever people usually ascribe to these things in hindsight.

Of course I think it's absolute stupid to think that SCE is middle of the road when it comes to that but some posters, you know.