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[gofreak]

I can't understand why people are surprised that the Xbox 2 might be the either the weakest of middle of the road console next gen, given timeframes. Sony and Nintendo simply have more time.

Exactly, I've never understood the ferocity with which many Xbox fanboys cling to the notion that Xbox2 will somehow be more powerful despite it launching earlier than the rest. Although this latest announcement seems to have quietened many of those "eternal optimists".

 

[soundwave05]

I think Nintendo's view is "look at Resident Evil 4 that's almost CGI quality, give us that 10x and we're happy for another five years".

I get the feeling Revolution is going to be really out there and Nintendo's gonna try and do something very different with it.

Yamauchi kinda hinted at that by saying Nintendo can "afford" a failure or two, I just don't think there's an intense kind of pressure at Nintendo that people think there is. With their cash horde, they can do whatever they want as long as they're still fiscally responsible.

 

[mumu]

I think not only will PS3 have better chipset than Xenon, but it'll also have Blu-Ray movie playback and maybe even full blown rewritability.

Piracy out of the box?

 

[Duckhuntdog]

I think people expecting Sony to "fizzle" just because Nintendo and Sega did will be in for a rude awakening.

As crazy as the PSP price announcement was, I think Sony is gonna bring it even higher with PS3.

I think not only will PS3 have better chipset than Xenon, but it'll also have Blu-Ray movie playback and maybe even full blown rewritability. Also I think a broader Sony Online service will launch alongside PS3.

I think its silly to say the ArtX (ATI West Coast) team needs "a kick in the ass". They're working directly to Nintendo's specifications, which is probably a cost efficent, capable, chipset, but I get the feeling Nintendo is going to spend a significant chunk of their hardware budget on new kinds of game input/interfaces rather than on the chipset entirely.

A new form of input/interface isn't going to win a console war. Nor make courting third-parties any easier if they need to do special case ports.

Nintendo is not in a good position. They need to actually find a way to get third-party support, get those third-party games to actually sell, if they are going to go off of a less power, more gimmick interface system.

Gimmicks aren't going to win a console war, software and support will. Something Sony has, now they just added the power feature to boot.

 

[soundwave05]

We'll see. But I think people expecting Sony to not bring anything less than their A-game are going to be in for a real shock and don't understand Mr. Kutaragi at all -- he's a ruthless competitor.

Microsoft may have a bigger bank account, but Kutaragi (who's being groomed as the next Sony president) has more power within his company and the video game division is his baby.

What he says goes (PSP at $200? Sure, why not).

 

[Duckhuntdog]

With their cash horde, they can do whatever they want as long as they're still fiscally responsible.

Burn rate at Nintendo is probably pretty high. What you should say is, as long as Nintendo has the GBA they can go for as long as they want. But Sony is coming to take away that market as well.

To say there is no pressure at NCL... well either NCL is waaaaaaaaaaay out of touch than we previously thought, Iwata is a moron, or you are not thinking reaslisticly.

 

[soundwave05]

A new form of input/interface isn't going to win a console war. Nor make courting third-parties any easier if they need to do special case ports.

Nintendo is not in a good position. They need to actually find a way to get third-party support, get those third-party games to actually sell, if they are going to go off of a less power, more gimmick interface system.

Gimmicks aren't going to win a console war, software and support will. Something Sony has, now they just added the power feature to boot.

Well from Nintendo's P.O.V. there's already two bigger companies (Sony and Microsoft) trying to do the same thing. There's probably not room for a third company to do that.

And who knows what the next "craze" will be. If one of Nintendo's "crazy" ideas hits pay dirt, they could cash in big time ... did you look at Pokemon in 1996 admist all the excitement over 3D games like Super Mario 64, Nights, Virtua Fighter 3, Resident Evil, etc. and say ... "well this franchise is going to outsell all of those?". Who knows what the next craze for kids will be anyway, right now its been Pokemon and Harry Potter, tomorrow it'll be something else.

A lot of people think that Nintendo is under some huge stress to regain the position the Famicom had like 15 years ago. I don't think that's the case. I think Yamauchi (and make no mistake, I think he still has primary influence over the company) is willing to bank on his game designers/R&D coming up with crazy ideas as long as its not too financially irresponsible.

You don't lose money unless you're taking a loss on hardware or spending exobinant money on software development -- neither or which is something Nintendo ever does, so even if their sales decline, a profit is still a profit, and that's the worst case scenario.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

I thought there was an article a few months ago about ATI and Nintendo working on Revolution, and more specifically by a team in California (assuming the old ArtX team). I could be wrong though...

It is the ArtX/R300 series team for Nintendo. MS was working with ATI's Marlborough team.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

I don't think Nintendo is under pressure to have another Famicom, but they certainly are under pressure for the following two:

1) Regaining marketshare and getting out of last place
2) Industry relevency

Or they can just screw all that and only care about the bottomline all the time, which could force them to be a niche market.

I mean, who knows, the animation studio could be a disaster.

 

[kaching]

if CELL was "THE SHIT" Sony wouldn't have needed nVidia's help, so I'm betting that it's not "THE SHIT" but just "SHIT"

Beside the fact that gofreak already pointed out your misstep in assuming Cell and the GPU are one in the same, you should also consider the possibility that sony may already have had the GPU design in mind that was "the shit" but needed help with the implementation and/or simply needed access to IP that nVidia owns in the process to properly implement that design.

 

[RobotChant]

It's starting... If the start of this upcoming generation is anything like the start of last generation, it's going to be awesome here.

*opens bottle of champagne*
Here's to all the sane people going insane, the trolling, the flames, the joke characters, the hyperbolic statements, the inside sources, the bold predictions, the bannings, the screenshot wars-- man I loved those, and we haven't had one in along time--, the creative ways of letting 56kers know they're not welcomed, the threads where tech guys are treated like gods, and most importantly, the new tags. Cheers!!!

 

[CrimsonSkies]

The PS3 console could be the biggest money pit in gaming ever.

A CPU that cost a ton for research / development , HDD built in, and now a GPU that uses next generation GEForce Technology.

 

[xexex]

almost after the start of this generation (1999-2000) people have been anticipating, speculating on, and reading about the NEXT generation. this upcoming gen has to be the most well-understood, most expected gen, by the average internet surfer who also plays games. i.e hardcore gamer or semi hardcore gamer. if that makes sense.

back in the 8-bit days of Atari, NES and SMS, most people didn't even know about another generation of consoles (TurboGrafx, Genesis, NeoGeo, Super NES) until after they had come out in Japan, and were about to launch in the U.S. (1987-1989 comes to mind).

 

[soundwave05]

Why shouldn't Sony invest a few bucks in PS3?

PSOne sold 100 million units (the most ever) and PS2 is on pace to topple that.

No one at Sony is going to say no to Kutaragi.

I think "Playstation" might be one of the top 5 brands in the world right now (maybe even top 3).

 

[xexex]

btw, do we know for certain that PSP does not have any Nvidia tech in it?

 

[acklame]

The PS3 console could be the biggest money pit in gaming ever.

A CPU that cost a ton for research / development , HDD built in, and now a GPU that uses next generation GEForce Technology.

Sony is also extending cell + new GPU technology to other sony digital electronics, it's not just for the ps3.
For example, they'll probably use a scaled down cell + this custom GPU in HDTV in 2006.

 

[teepo]

aren't they going to be selling cell based workstations?

 

[Phoenix]

Sony is also extending cell + new GPU technology to other sony digital electronics, it's not just for the ps3.
For example, they'll probably use a scaled down cell + this custom GPU in HDTV in 2006.

Yes. Sony is sharing the burdon of Cell development by sharing it with IBM and Toshy.. Between the three of them they will have enough uses to actually mass produce Cell chips and not have to worry about the yields at tap out. The ones that don't work for the PS3 can be used in TVs, camcorders, etc. A cell rollout across the three companies will be large enough that no one company is shouldering the load alone and the cost of any failures is minimized. Haven't seen this level of cooperation for a while

 

[Duckhuntdog]

The PS3 console could be the biggest money pit in gaming ever.

A CPU that cost a ton for research / development , HDD built in, and now a GPU that uses next generation GEForce Technology.

Yeah, but unlike some other company, Sony seems to always make their money back and this little thing called profit, which Nintendo highly prizes.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

aren't they going to be selling cell based workstations?

Yup and Cell based IBM servers as well, I believe.

 

[Phoenix]

btw, do we know for certain that PSP does not have any Nvidia tech in it?

Well since people have them in hand and have cracked them open I would guess - no. NVidias GeForce mobile tech is good, however, and would explain the horrid battery life, I doubt anything of theirs is in the PSP.

 

[acklame]

Yes. Sony is sharing the burdon of Cell development by sharing it with IBM and Toshy.. Between the three of them they will have enough uses to actually mass produce Cell chips and not have to worry about the yields at tap out. The ones that don't work for the PS3 can be used in TVs, camcorders, etc. A cell rollout across the three companies will be large enough that no one company is shouldering the load alone and the cost of any failures is minimized. Haven't seen this level of cooperation for a while

Exactly. IBM will be rolling out cell-based workstations themselves, and Toshiba will roll out cell-based electronics like Sony. Toshiba already said they'll make cell-based HDTV in 2006.

 

[soundwave05]

What exactly would be the use of CELL chips in an HDTV though?

I mean HDTVs today get along fine without supercomputer processing power ...

 

[Phoenix]

What exactly would be the use of CELL chips in an HDTV though?

I mean HDTVs today get along fine without supercomputer processing power ...

Processing an HD signal requires a fair amount of CPU. If you are going to clean up the signal and upscale/downscale handle multiple inputs blah blah blah you want to have a good amount of CPU. In addition since you're getting them cheap (mass production) you would use what you already have available as opposed to fabbing an entirely seperate chip. Its the same way with, for example, nVidias 6800 line (trying to use something familiar). The chips tap out at different thresholds and different things are 'appended' to this chip to make the card. However nVidia doesn't fab an entirely different chip for the low end. They just disable pipelines that are already on the card. They may work, they may not - but they didn't 'certify' it for full use. As a result people use softmods to enable the stuff that nVidia turned off. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Intel and AMD do the same thing. Far far cheaper to get your chips off the same fab line and use it (even if it is more CPU than you need) than to fab an entirely different low end chip (actually very expensive).

 

[TTP]

What exactly would be the use of CELL chips in an HDTV though?

I mean HDTVs today get along fine without supercomputer processing power ...

being able to play PS3 games perhaps?

 

[Kleegamefan]

So this is what we know of PS3:

Game Console

BW compatible with PS1 and PS2 games

Teraflop-ish computing power meaning vast scene complexity

Plays DVDs and High-Def Blu-ray Movies and games meaning 7.1 (or more) sound via DTS-HD and Dolby Digital Plus

Access to nVidia graphics tech meaning good textures and antilalasing


Quite formidable, IMO

 

[Amir0x]

So this is what we know of PS3:

Game Console

BW compatible with PS1 and PS2 games

Teraflop-ish computing power meaning vast scene complexity

Plays DVDs and High-Def Blu-ray Movies and games meaning 7.1 (or more) sound via DTS-HD and Dolby Digital Plus

Access to nVidia graphics tech meaning good textures and antilalasing


Quite formidable, IMO

We know this, or it's just the most common speculation?

 

[XS+]

So this is what we know of PS3:

Game Console

BW compatible with PS1 and PS2 games

Teraflop-ish computing power meaning vast scene complexity

Plays DVDs and High-Def Blu-ray Movies and games meaning 7.1 (or more) sound via DTS-HD and Dolby Digital Plus

Access to nVidia graphics tech meaning good textures and antilalasing


Quite formidable, IMO

The champ, unquestionably -- though, we haven't heard anything about the Revolution. I like the way Sony furtively played their cards.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

Just because they are going to use Cell elsewhere doesn't take away from the reason Cell was made. PlayStation 3.


"Sony seems to always make their money back and this little thing called profit"

Microsoft has made more in the last month in profit than Sony has made in two years.

 

[soundwave05]

So this is what we know of PS3:

Game Console

BW compatible with PS1 and PS2 games

Teraflop-ish computing power meaning vast scene complexity

Plays DVDs and High-Def Blu-ray Movies and games meaning 7.1 (or more) sound via DTS-HD and Dolby Digital Plus

Access to nVidia graphics tech meaning good textures and antilalasing


Quite formidable, IMO


Yeah my biggest problem with PSOne and PS2 has been the image quality.

So this is really good news for me. I've always felt like Sony needed to get more "finesse" to go with their brute power approach and it looks like that might be happening.

The main reasons why I like the XBox are honestly because of the hackability of the platform and the superior image quality/graphics output. I'm not that big of a Halo freak. Take that away and it looks like I'll be a PS3 gamer next gen with a Revolution on the side for Nintendo's stuff.

 

[Phoenix]

Just because they are going to use Cell elsewhere doesn't take away from the reason Cell was made. PlayStation 3.

Actually that too is not correct. IBM too had a specific reason for being in the partnership (people don't hop into multibillion dollar multiyear deals just to help Sony out). IBM was also in the market for partners to manufacture a line of POWER-family chips that would power low power IBm-Blade servers and a new line of workstations, crucial in their growth phase in the business services market. In addition a fab is an expensive sink-hole unless you have people producing a metric-assload of chips in it. You can't produce a metric-assload of chips (and make money) unless you have customers for them. IBM had very specific intentions in this deal.

I have no idea what Toshiba really gets out of it - though I think they just wanted the 'unused' chips for their lines of consumer electronics.

 

[XS+]

The PS3 console could be the biggest money pit in gaming ever.

A CPU that cost a ton for research / development , HDD built in, and now a GPU that uses next generation GEForce Technology.

As long as it's the beast it seemingly is, with the games to match, I could care less. The PS3 will be a gamer's dream system: Backwards compatibility with the best systems for the past two generations; a graphics capability that is unchallenged; and support from the industry's best. Next generation, Sony is looking to hammer nails into both microsoft's and nintendo's respective coffins.

 

[marsomega]

So this is what we know of PS3:

Game Console

BW compatible with PS1 and PS2 games

Teraflop-ish computing power meaning vast scene complexity

Plays DVDs and High-Def Blu-ray Movies and games meaning 7.1 (or more) sound via DTS-HD and Dolby Digital Plus

Access to nVidia graphics tech meaning good textures and antilalasing


Quite formidable, IMO

Nice observation. Taking whats there and not reaching further then what it is.

Super-tinfoil beanie conspiracy theory time:

NV48 & NV50 cancelled due to success in prototyping a Cell-based Geforce chipset, to be unveiled at a later date. ATI heard to be vomiting profusely in the corporate washroom upon receiving the news.

Some of the NV50 being cancelled cause of the joint Sony/NVIDIA deal are really out there.

The NV50 being cancelled is pure speculation and the speculation on why in this thread is really wishful thinking (that or the excitement overwhelmed some). If anything (provided they did cancel it), they canceled the NV50 and are recycling what they can for an NV5X. It’s a fact that NV doesn't want a unified shader model and pressuring MS to allow an abstraction layer to support the unified shader model abstractly shows this. In other words, it would support the unified shader functions software wise but under the hood VS and PS's are doing the work. With ATI dictating with MS, it's more likely they swallowed their pride and began salvaging what they can and started designing an NV5X with the unified shaders in hardware. With ATI having a full range of longhorn "ready" cards for OEM's and everyone else, NV without a doubt will be left helpless with a new tech that’s incompatible with the new standard and cards no OEM would touch.

This is all provided the NV50 is in fact canceled. You don't throw away millions of dollars in development just like that.

 

[Che]

As long as it's the beast it seemingly is, with the games to match, I could care less. The PS3 will be a gamer's dream system: Backwards compatibility with the best systems for the past two generations; a graphics capability that is unchallenged; and support from the industry's best. Next generation, Sony is looking to hammer nails into both microsoft's and nintendo's respective coffins.

Unfortunatelly that seems the most realistic post in this thread. Hail to the monopoly!

 

[Drek]

Just because they are going to use Cell elsewhere doesn't take away from the reason Cell was made. PlayStation 3.

God really does hate you doesn't he?

Its been debated up until fairly recently if Cell would even be in PS3. It was made so that IBM, Sony, and Toshiba could together make a cost effective chip that they can either use individually stack with other Cells to make a more powerful system. Its reason for being is to be versatile. PS3 just happens to be one high power example, though not has high power as IBM's upcoming workstations.

What exactly would be the use of CELL chips in an HDTV though?

I mean HDTVs today get along fine without supercomputer processing power ...

Well, right now we see very expensive HDTVs across the board with that are typically 1080i/720p retail if I recall (some 1080p maybe?).

If you want higher resolution progressive scan you'll need more powerful chipsets in the television. If said chipset happened to have its costs marginalized thanks to widespread distribution in other products then any HDTVs including it have a major cost compenent reduced in price. So picture Samsung sticking with standard processors and having to put some real work into making cost effective, powerful chips with each major upgrade of their sets. Meanwhile Sony just adds another Cell over their previous set, write some new firmware, and there they go. They skip all the development costs otherwise associated with just the chip regarding their HDTV manufacturing processes, while at the same time using a chip that they can include in the set at cost since the manufacturing costs of Cell will be greatly reduced thanks to the more profitable markets it will be used in (PS3, IBM workstations, PDAs, PC graphics cards, etc.).

If Cell really is as versitile as IBM and Sony want everyone to believe they're sitting on a potential gold mine. Of course thats somewhat dependant on them getting down to 65 nm fabs within a reasonable timeframe, or else Cell won't be nearly as cost effective.

 

[iapetus]

Microsoft has made more in the last month in profit than Sony has made in two years.

 

[tahrikmili]

The PS3 will be a gamer's dream system: Backwards compatibility with the best systems for the past two generations; a graphics capability that is unchallenged; and support from the industry's best.

You mean it has backward compatibility with XBOX and Dreamcast? *ducks*

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Microsoft has made more in the last month in profit than Sony has made in two years.

They have???? Off the Xbox??? Shit, did they reach the 100 million units sold goal as well? :lol

 

[Vortac]

Whether one is more powerful than another is insignificant (as was shown with PS2...)

Thought you should have learned that by now...

If anything will show you the difference it will be MS and Sony's handling of developer relations. Thankfully Sony who doesn't have a clue now has Nvidia who also doesn't have a clue (see: no help with understanding inner workings of GPUs for years and years in efforts to keep everything proprietary)

Microsoft was good to go the ATI route, but we're going to see SKUs of every major game for Xenon and PS3. Don't know of a house that is even considering Revolution SKUs.

 

[DCharlie]

What happens if the GPU is not NV50 based but 6000 based?

 

[nitewulf]

LOL at the gripes about not re-inventing the wheel. If you only knew how programers would feel coding for a barebones GPU like the ps2 GS. This news is probably making all the programmers party like its 1999.
Re-invent the wheel my foot.
What are nvidia engineers, a bunch of monkeys? whereas sony engineers are all MIT and Stanford grads? pfffft.

 

[human5892]

The Xbox console is the biggest money pit in gaming ever.

Fixed.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Cool news. Removes all worry about image quality. I honestly wasn't sweating it though. PS2 improved dramatically over the PS1, and wasn't bad at all. The difference to the Xbox and GC was small. I expected the PS3 to have great image quality. Maybe not the best, but good enough to make everything look good. Now there's no worry at all b/c NVidia is good.

Anyway, Sony's key to success is that they have targeted the heart of the gaming industry, semiconductor design. Chips have driven game systems since the start, so it makes sense to make that your prime business. Man, I hope Cell turns out to be what it looks like, and I hope the GPU is Cell-based with NVidia IPs in the pipeline. That'll be formidable. We need some teaser screens. PEACE.

 

[tahrikmili]

Anyway, Sony's key to success is that they have targeted the heart of the gaming industry, semiconductor design. Chips have driven game systems since the start, so it makes sense to make that your prime business. Man, I hope Cell turns out to be what it looks like, and I hope the GPU is Cell-based with NVidia IPs in the pipeline. That'll be formidable. We need some teaser screens. PEACE.

Problem here is that all three GPUs this time around are being made by PC graphics card manuf'ers and PC gaming has been VASTLY dependent on GPU power, not CPU, for a long time now.

 

[Mike Works]

The PS3 console could be the biggest money pit in gaming ever.

A CPU that cost a ton for research / development , HDD built in, and now a GPU that uses next generation GEForce Technology.

Just because they are going to use Cell elsewhere doesn't take away from the reason Cell was made. PlayStation 3.

What the hell are you babbling on about? You claim the PS3 is going to be a huge money pit because, in part, of a CPU that cost a ton for research and development. Now that it's known that Cell is going to be used for more than just the PS3, you retort with, "But it was initially planned just for the PS3!"

So are we supposed to attribute all of the R&D for Cell against the PS3 and discount that same R&D for every other product that uses it?

"Sony seems to always make their money back and this little thing called profit"

Microsoft has made more in the last month in profit than Sony has made in two years.

You criticized Sony's financial embarking with the PS3. How much money has the XBox made Microsoft?

 

[GaimeGuy]

What the hell are you babbling on about? You claim the PS3 is going to be a huge money pit because, in part, of a CPU that cost a ton for research and development. Now that it's known that Cell is going to be used for more than just the PS3, you retort with, "But it was initially planned just for the PS3!"

So are we supposed to attribute all of the R&D for Cell against the PS3 and discount that same R&D for every other product that uses it?


You criticized Sony's financial embarking with the PS3. How much money has the XBox made Microsoft?

Shot down! :lol

 

[DopeyFish]

The R&D cost is seperate from manufacture/fab/logistics costs. The R&D money is for just that.... to research and develop it, not to manufacture it.

 

[kaching]

CrimsonSkies just gets really cranky when people start talking about next gen hardware that hasn't been released yet, esp. if it involves suggesting the PS3 might be more powerful than the Xbox2.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Problem here is that all three GPUs this time around are being made by PC graphics card manuf'ers and PC gaming has been VASTLY dependent on GPU power, not CPU, for a long time now.

Sony's manufacturing the GPU. It says so in the NVidia PR. NVidia is codesigning the chip with Sony, but Sony's fabbing it themselves. They're keeping costs internal. That's why they have an edge IMO. They'll always experience economies of scale fastest with all things being equal. Software is where it's at for profits, but reducing the sag of hardware costs quickly can afford you some leverage in the performance department. In other words, it becomes more realistic to take a hit at launch in echange for a big performance bump, b/c you can start paying it back off a year later and the money doubles quickly. PEACE.

 

[soundwave05]

I actually like Sony's strategy.

I think it forces them to be sharp since failure isn't an option and I think Kutaragi does it on purpose. No one at Sony can question him after that, because there's no "well we're sorta doing this". You're either in 100% or you're not. A lot of the "old guard" at Sony didn't like Kutaragi (many of them are now gone), they wanted to can the Playstation project out right fearing that it would alienate Nintendo with whom they had a lucrative sound processor deal with.

I don't think MS really has the same killer edge, because they know the OS monopoly will always be there for them. They've blown a sh-tload of money into MSN but have gotten their asses kicked by AOL for years for instance. Other ventures like MSNBC (beaten soundly by CNN) haven't exactly flourished either.