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Oct 2010 issue of Game Developer - Postmortem on Final Fantasy XIII [More Post 218]

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
7X0er.jpg


Just got my copy in the mail, this month's postmortem is on FFXIII and written by Motomu Toriyama and Akihiko Maeda. Not going to post everything here from the 4 page article, just the bullets and a brief snippet from each of them from the usual postmortem sections.

It's a decent read, but reading through the lines I suspect what they detail about the game's development is probably on the understated side, given what they ended up listing for the "What went right" section.

As someone who's both been on and observed several development teams in Western gaming companies, it's always fascinating to hear about how Japanese developers operate. The Location Manager point is a good example - this would just be covered by someone on the production staff over here, usually an associate producer along with an assistant producer or two.

If you want the whole thing either snag a copy (print or digital) or just wait for the article to be eventually posted on Gamasutra.

WHAT WENT WRONG

1) LACK OF A SHARED VISION - Final Fantasy XIII was first introduced through a concept trailer shown alongside the announcement of the Fabula Nova Crystallis project at E3 2006 (Fabula Nova Crystallis represents a suite of games and other entertainment media related to Final Fantasy XIII). The trailer was merely a visual concept and we had not yet created anything playable at that point.

<snip>

2) THE UNIVERSAL ENGINE AND NARROWING DOWN THE SPECS - Another issue was the universal engine. Because we were so focused on creating an engine for next-gen hardware that could be utilized across all platforms, we made the mistake of trying to accommodate every single project that was in progress at the time. In hindsight, it should have been obvious that it would be impossible to fully satisfy all of those needs.

<snip>

3) GETTING STARTED ANYWAY - As all of this was going on, the staff involved directly with the actual data construction had no choice but to start working before the specs were finalized. Their main concern was that they could not be able to keep up with the schedule if they continued to wait for final decisions.

<snip>

4) THE LIMITS OF THE TRADITIONAL TEAM STRUCTURE - As the project's scope increased, the traditional development style of dividing the team into specified roles, such as character modelers or texture artists, started to present issues as well. This problem of over-specialization presented itself in each discipline. The biggest problem was that the project became bloated with the increase in staff within each department. And because roles were so specific, the communication flow became faulty and information was not being shared properly.

<snip>

5) INTERNATIONAL PLAYER TESTS THAT CAME TOO LATE - Even before the current generation of consoles was introduced, it was obvious that the game market of the West was gaining momentum, and we couldn't ignore it. The sentiment that stood out the most to us at the time was the increasingly harsh criticism towards JRPGs, Linearity and command-based battles were tow of the features being perceived negatively. This was something that the team was very conscious about, and there were concerns about whether JRPGs would still be accepted in the West. Because Final Fantasy XIII's mission was to succeed worldwide, we could not ignore this issue, as we felt it could deeply affect the future of the franchise.

Around the same time, we were experimenting with Western development methods, and there were talks within the team of global focus groups, which we had rarely conducted with previous projects. At the same time, Square Enix set up international focus groups for certain titles, including Final Fantasy XIII. Unfortunately, we were already quite far along in development, and knew it would be too late to implement most of the feedback from the player test sessions.

<snip>

WHAT WENT RIGHT

1) REALIZING A SHARED VISION THROUGH THE DEMO - Even at a late stage of development, we did not agree on key elements of the game, which stemmed from the lack of a cohesive vision, the lack of finalized specs, and the remaining problems with communication between departments,

What enabled us to conquer this line of seemingly endless conflicts fwas the development process for the Final Fantasy XIII demo, which was included in the Japan-only Blu-ray version of the animate film Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete. The demo was not in our original plan, so we had to make adjustments to overall schedule to accommodate it. Whatever effects creating the demo had on the schedule, once it was complete we realize it was just he panacea we needed.

<snip>

2) CLARIFICATION OF ELEMENTS AND PROCESSES THROUGH DEVELOPING THE DEMO - The demo brought together all data, development of which was previously uncoordinated, clarifying many elements and significant speeding up the process of determining the remaining specs.

<snip>

3) CREATING THE LOCATION MANAGER ROLE - Although the schedule was now working, we began to realize that we were unable to keep up with the sharing of information within the traditional team structure. On order to resolve the issue, we created a new role that did not exist in our traditional development environment the location manager, who would function to bridge the gap between different departments.

<snip>

4) RESOLVING THE UNIVERSAL ENGINE DILEMMA - The issue with the universal engine was seen as something that would affect the progress of all related projects within the company, and in the end, it was decided that the needs of the flagship title, Final Fantasy XIII should come first and foremost.

<snip>

5) NARROWING DOWN POLISHING POINTS THROUGH FOCUS GROUPS - Through the focus group we conducted (mentioned in the "wrong" section), we found that, contrary to expectations, the game was received very well by Western players. Also, both Japanese and Western players place emphasis on the story and battles, meaning that the style we focused on with Final Fantasy XIII was accepted after all.

<snip>

The conclusion to the postmortem is very simple. I learned that we must first create something tangible and playable to share a game's concept and confirm the actual specifications to create an environment in which precise decisions function within the process. Only then can you proceed with the development of such immense amounts of data. Furthermore, up until this point, we had taken a very traditionally Japanese "Square Enix method" based on individual craftsmanship. Now we are trying to incorporate as much as possible form the development style of studios overseas into our system.
 

Regulus Tera

Romanes Eunt Domus
1) LACK OF A SHARED VISION - Final Fantasy XIII was first introduced through a concept trailer shown alongside the announcement of the Fabula Nova Crystallis project at E3 2006 (Fabula Nova Crystallis represents a suite of games and other entertainment media related to Final Fantasy XIII). The trailer was merely a visual concept and we had not yet created anything playable at that poin

Huh, I'm sure they all said back then that it was based on an early build.

Not that anyone ever believed them. Wait, actually, plenty of people did.
 
2) THE UNIVERSAL ENGINE AND NARROWING DOWN THE SPECS - Another issue was the universal engine. Because we were so focused on creating an engine for next-gen hardware that could be utilized across all platforms, we made the mistake of trying to accommodate every single project that was in progress at the time. In hindsight, it should have been obvious that it would be impossible to fully satisfy all of those needs.
That's interesting. I remember it was big news when FFXIII showed up on the PS3 and 360. So when was the decision made to go multiplatform? Was the game multiplatform from the start? Or was FFXIII's multiplatform status sealed after the engine was already designed for all platforms?
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
j_k_redtail said:
That's interesting. I remember it was big news when FFXIII showed up on the PS3 and 360. So when was the decision made to go multiplatform? Was the game multiplatform from the start? Or was FFXIII's multiplatform status sealed after the engine was already designed for all platforms?
The most conspicuous omission reading through the article was any specific discussion on the decision to support the 360 platform.
 

bhlaab

Member
j_k_redtail said:
That's interesting. I remember it was big news when FFXIII showed up on the PS3 and 360. So when was the decision made to go multiplatform? Was the game multiplatform from the start? Or was FFXIII's multiplatform status sealed after the engine was already designed for all platforms?

I think they wanted to create a versatile in-house engine to leave the door open for any possibility, and that conflicted with getting the game done (and would have even if no 360 version ever came out)
 

Lathentar

Looking for Pants
Jerk 2.0 said:
Fascinating.

I must get this magazine!
Its really not that great, sadly only one or two articles is worth reading per issue and these are usually less than 1 page. The post-mortems tend to repeat themselves often. Everyone goes through crunch, shocking news.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
I bought the digital version.

Regarding the 360 port, the decision was made around end of 2007 but actual 360 port development didn't actually begin until early 2009.
 
5) INTERNATIONAL PLAYER TESTS THAT CAME TOO LATE - Even before the current generation of consoles was introduced, it was obvious that the game market of the West was gaining momentum, and we couldn't ignore it. The sentiment that stood out the most to us at the time was the increasingly harsh criticism towards JRPGs, Linearity and command-based battles were tow of the features being perceived negatively. This was something that the team was very conscious about, and there were concerns about whether JRPGs would still be accepted in the West. Because Final Fantasy XIII's mission was to succeed worldwide, we could not ignore this issue, as we felt it could deeply affect the future of the franchise.

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Lathentar said:
Its really not that great, sadly only one or two articles is worth reading per issue and these are usually less than 1 page. The post-mortems tend to repeat themselves often. Everyone goes through crunch, shocking news.
I think a lot of the articles are useful to some degree, but many of them are discipline specific so for a lot of people a good chunk of the mag wouldn't be worth reading if they're not planning on coding shaders, doing audio design work, etc. That said, most people in the industry get free subscriptions anyway.
 

Diablos

Member
Kagari said:
http://www.gdmag.com/homepage.htm

Link for whoever wants to buy the digital version.
Will buy this soon (when I'm not so tired and actually want to read).

They seem pretty confident in saying it was well-received outside of Japan... but do they ever talk about how people criticized the game for being so linear?

I really enjoyed FFXIII but it seems like a very love/hate installment.
 
OK, awesome. I just remembered that my university library has subscriptions to a bunch of research journals - turns out that they get Game Developer as well. Taking full advantage.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Square Enix - WHAT WENT RIGHT - 5) NARROWING DOWN POLISHING POINTS THROUGH FOCUS GROUPS said:
Through the focus group we conducted (mentioned in the "wrong" section), we found that, contrary to expectations, the game was received very well by Western players. Also, both Japanese and Western players place emphasis on the story and battles, meaning that the style we focused on with Final Fantasy XIII was accepted after all.

????????????????
 
Kagari said:
I am curious as to what sort of 'western players' they had in this focus group.

People do seem to forget the game was well received critically and is at worst a mixed bag among the fans. I think they'll probably stick with the story-telling style and try to evolve the battle system further.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
BocoDragon said:
????????????????
I'm guessing they limited their focus tests to certain areas of the game. You only have a limited amount of time for each session, after all. Also keep in mind this was S-E's first foray into doing focus tests, it usually takes a couple before a developer figures out how to use them effectively and extract the relevant data from them.
 
INTERNATIONAL PLAYER TESTS THAT CAME TOO LATE :lol

How about. "Finding the fun came too late"

Postmortems are a joke these days. Nine times out of ten they are reviewed and rewritten by producers. I don't even know why they bother with them anymore, you never learn anything relevant.
 

Gribbix

Member
Diablos said:
Will buy this soon (when I'm not so tired and actually want to read).

They seem pretty confident in saying it was well-received outside of Japan... but do they ever talk about how people criticized the game for being so linear?

Linearity is mentioned when they discuss perceived attitudes towards JRPGs in general, but I don't recall if they specifically single that out as something specific to FFXIII:
The sentiment that stood out the most to us at the time was the increasingly harsh criticism towards JRPGs. Linearity and command-based battles were two features being perceived negatively. This was something the team was very conscious about, and there were concerns about whether JRPGs would still be accepted in the West.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Yeah, I read this last week. Lots of engine dev problems weren't suprising, but all the localizing woes (focus groups, localization managers) seemed rather excessive to me.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Kagari said:
I am curious as to what sort of 'western players' they had in this focus group.
This whole thing is just so, so wrong. This whole Japanese dev "figuring out what the western audience wants" thing is a disaster on so many levels. In response to a very real threat from the west, this doctrine of 'seeking western appeal' just digs their own graves further.

The thing is, when Square was popular in the west, it was never that it 'appealed to western tastes'. It was always perceived as foreign, an import. It was like sushi. Not at all western. But nonetheless, with the right game and marketing, FF7/sushi could still be a rather mainstream hit.

The thing is, if you focus test a game in the west, they'll tell you they want a game with Nascar, Bruce Willis and Megan Fox. Screw the mainstream opinion! You can't be that and you shouldn't try to be.

But the thing is, with a company like Square, these days, they'll fuck up even understanding the Nascar/Willis/Fox game. They'll get it hopelessly wrong. And then later, they'll totally spin (lie) about how this illusory "american audience" perceieves it. It's bullshit all the way through. It ends up being games made for an audience which doesn't exist.

/rant
 

ixix

Exists in a perpetual state of Quantum Crotch Uncertainty.
Points one and two under "What Went Right" really make it sound like a bunch of members of the development team played the demo and said "Oh, hey, so this is what I've been working on the past few years. Huh."
 
I wonder how many subpar Final Fantasies Square can make before people actually stop getting ridiculously hyped for this once great franchise.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
ixix said:
Points one and two under "What Went Right" really make it sound like a bunch of members of the development team played the demo and said "Oh, hey, so this is what I've been working on the past few years. Huh."
It's almost like they spent years since 2005 working on art, movies and game engines, then at some point, probably late 2008, they found the ability to sculpt them into something resembling "a game". It would have been surprising!
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Gully State said:
I wonder how many subpar Final Fantasies Square can make before people actually stop getting ridiculously hyped for this once great franchise.

I was formerly fanboy number one... but if I don't hear some type of stated assurance that they are correcting XIII's flaws in FFXV or whatever, I am going to be pessimistic.
 
Gully State said:
I wonder how many subpar Final Fantasies Square can make before people actually stop getting ridiculously hyped for this once great franchise.

I don't know about others but unless square-enix suddenly has a epiphany and makes a holy shit awesome game in their future installments I won't be buying. After playing 11, 12 and 13 I won't be coming back to the franchise at all.
 

DR2K

Banned
cosmicblizzard said:
People do seem to forget the game was well received critically and is at worst a mixed bag among the fans. I think they'll probably stick with the story-telling style and try to evolve the battle system further.

In terms of critical reception it's well below mainline Final Fantasy games.
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
NARROWING DOWN POLISHING POINTS THROUGH FOCUS GROUPS - Through the focus group we conducted (mentioned in the "wrong" section), we found that, contrary to expectations, the game was received very well by Western players. Also, both Japanese and Western players place emphasis on the story and battles, meaning that the style we focused on with Final Fantasy XIII was accepted after all.

This seems... contradicting. I remember reading Wada's laments or something towards the FFXIII's mixed Western reviews.

Gully State said:
I wonder how many subpar Final Fantasies Square can make before people actually stop getting ridiculously hyped for this once great franchise.

Well... The franchise has been on decline, so I guess that means something.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
DR2K said:
In terms of critical reception it's well below mainline Final Fantasy games.
In my experience... it's nearly universally hated.

The dudes at my local retro game store... hated it. The dude in my history class who barely plays any Japanese console games but always checks out FF... hated it. My ex-girlfriend.... hated it.

Not that it's "so terrible". I had some enjoyment with it, others on this board did too.... but dayum, I do not think that game did good things for FF's reputation at all.
 

Teknoman

Member
cosmicblizzard said:
Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

In Atlus we trust.


Seriously though, I wish developers would stop trying to cater to everyone and just do what works best for the game they have planned. People will like/buy your game if it's good.

On the other hand, Agito (an actual overworld?!) and Versus look decent from what I saw in the TGS10 trailer.

BocoDragon said:
This whole thing is just so, so wrong. This whole Japanese dev "figuring out what the western audience wants" thing is a disaster on so many levels. In response to a very real threat from the west, this doctrine of 'seeking western appeal' just digs their own graves further.

The thing is, when Square was popular in the west, it was never that it 'appealed to western tastes'. It was always perceived as foreign, an import. It was like sushi. Not at all western. But nonetheless, with the right game and marketing, FF7/sushi could still be a rather mainstream hit.

The thing is, if you focus test a game in the west, they'll tell you they want a game with Nascar, Bruce Willis and Megan Fox. Screw the mainstream opinion! You can't be that and you shouldn't try to be.

But the thing is, with a company like Square, these days, they'll fuck up even understanding the Nascar/Willis/Fox game. They'll get it hopelessly wrong. And then later, they'll totally spin (lie) about how this illusory "american audience" perceieves it. It's bullshit all the way through. It ends up being games made for an audience which doesn't exist.

/rant

Yeah, pretty much.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
ULTROS! said:
This seems... contradicting. I remember reading Wada's laments or something towards the FFXIII's mixed Western reviews.
Again, focus groups rarely play through an entire game.
 
DR2K said:
In terms of critical reception it's well below mainline Final Fantasy games.

And that's something I'm sure they're aware of. I doubt they're satisfied with an average in the low 80s when the standard has been in the 90s for over a decade. Square is listening to the criticism and I'm sure they'll keep what works while getting rid of what doesn't.

At least I hope so. These teams have talent, but the management issues and miscommunication/conflicting visions could turn a great idea on paper into a mess.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
There is a lot of good in the ideas behind FF XIII, it just never seemed to ever fully click.

I came in expecting to hate it and I came out finding that I don't.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
To be fair, much of the debacle of XIII has to do with getting crystal tools up and running. Most of XIII development was actually "crystal tools development". We won't see that play out again this gen, and in future gens, hopefully they won't make the same mistake in letting the game engine lag the project.

At least XIII doesn't use Unreal Engine 3, lol.
 
BocoDragon said:
In my experience... it's nearly universally hated.

The dudes at my local retro game store... hated it. The dude in my history class who barely plays any Japanese console games but always checks out FF... hated it. My ex-girlfriend.... hated it.

Not that it's "so terrible". I had some enjoyment with it, others on this board did too.... but dayum, I do not think that game did good things for FF's reputation at all.

Not trying to say you and your friend's opinions don't count, but that doesn't exactly justify calling something "universally" hated. I've got 5 friends that love the game (2 of which still consider it their GOTY). I'm not claiming the game is universally loved based on that.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
cosmicblizzard said:
Not trying to say you and your friend's opinions don't count, but that isn't exactly "universally" hated. I've got 5 friends that love the game (2 of which still consider it their GOTY). I'm not claiming the game is universally loved based on that.
Fair enough. My evidence is definitely anecdotal. It's just that in the months since XIII hit the scene, I've digested a few impressions from random people, to figure out its place in public opinion..... so far it's not good. I'm the most positive one, and I have my criticisms in spades.

One thing I will defend when I'm talking to them... I think it's some of the best art in gaming history (visuals and music, etc).
 
The last FF I liked was 9. Last one I bought was X. I will not be buying another FF unless it goes back to its roots. Sounds like it never will, so the franchise might be dead to me. Sad.
 
Final Fantasy VII is supposed to be the high point for the series as far as sales go and that the series has, by and large, been on the decline ever since but how well did XIII do? I'm interested to see how it compares overall sales-wise. It'll be interesting to see how far the series has fallen versus how much and how long XIII took to make. How much of a losing proposition is it?
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
SlipperySlope said:
The last FF I liked was 9. Last one I bought was X. I will not be buying another FF unless it goes back to its roots. Sounds like it never will, so the franchise might be dead to me. Sad.

Go play X-2 now. It's awesome.
 
The interview makes it sound like they were completely confused by designing a universal engine (to be used for this for other projects) and a game simultaneously, and they didn't even have anything playable until they built the demo.

And they had totally different people in charge of each location in the game.

That explains a lot about the game. Cripes.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
jaundicejuice said:
Final Fantasy VII is supposed to be the high point for the series as far as sales go and that the series has, by and large, been on the decline ever since but how well did XIII do? I'm interested to see how it compares overall sales-wise. It'll be interesting to see how far the series has fallen versus how much and how long XIII took to make. How much of a losing proposition is it?

So far, XIII has sold about half of FFVII, 5 mil vs. 10 mil. But that's considered a success.... FFXII sold 5.2 mil.

badcrumble said:
The interview makes it sound like they were completely confused by designing a universal engine (to be used for this for other projects) and a game simultaneously, and they didn't even have anything playable until they built the demo.

And they had totally different people in charge of each location in the game.

That explains a lot about the game. Cripes.
That IS the case.

It was just "developing engine and assets" until 2008. It was shown at E3 in 2006! The game proper was rushed in about 1.5 years. When you might have assumed, from PR, that they were entering the home stretch, they were just getting started....
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
BocoDragon said:
This whole thing is just so, so wrong. This whole Japanese dev "figuring out what the western audience wants" thing is a disaster on so many levels. In response to a very real threat from the west, this doctrine of 'seeking western appeal' just digs their own graves further.

The thing is, when Square was popular in the west, it was never that it 'appealed to western tastes'. It was always perceived as foreign, an import. It was like sushi. Not at all western. But nonetheless, with the right game and marketing, FF7/sushi could still be a rather mainstream hit.

The thing is, if you focus test a game in the west, they'll tell you they want a game with Nascar, Bruce Willis and Megan Fox. Screw the mainstream opinion! You can't be that and you shouldn't try to be.

But the thing is, with a company like Square, these days, they'll fuck up even understanding the Nascar/Willis/Fox game. They'll get it hopelessly wrong. And then later, they'll totally spin (lie) about how this illusory "american audience" perceieves it. It's bullshit all the way through. It ends up being games made for an audience which doesn't exist.

/rant

I agree unfortunately. The only stuff we'll get that are not pseudo-Western stuff nowadays are from Atlus, Level-5, Sega, and miscellaneous niche developers/publishers (NIS).

I just wish Japanese companies would stick to making games that they're good at (or at least expanding their demographics nicely and properly). Square and Enix are known for Japanese RPGs, not really for shooters (looks at GunLoco).
 

Astery

Member
BocoDragon said:
At least XIII doesn't use Unreal Engine 3, lol.

They don't use it cause they don't understand it. Last Remnant's disaster.

PandaPandaPanda said:
I don't know about others but unless square-enix suddenly has a epiphany and makes a holy shit awesome game in their future installments I won't be buying. After playing 11, 12 and 13 I won't be coming back to the franchise at all.

Adding 14 to the list?:lol
 
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