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[badcrumble]

But almost every single FF from FFIV on has been very easy by jRPG standards, easy enough that 'Attack + Heal' gets you through most of the thing. In my view, the strength of an FF battle system is how much the game lets you play around, which is one of the reasons why I love FFV so much. The sheer amount of ways for you to snap the game on your knee is astonishing.

This.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

There was a fair amount of customization in XIII through upgrading weapons, but the system was so abstruse and explained so poorly in-game that FAQs were required to make any real sense out of it.

 

[Dresden]

I think Grandia 3 battle system is better than FF13 as well

Grandia 3 had a kickass battle system. Probably the most enjoyable I ever played.

The problem was that everything else about the game was dogshit. Although the mom was a MILF.

 

[Aeana]

Grandia 3 had a kickass battle system. Probably the most enjoyable I ever played.

The problem was that everything else about the game was dogshit. Although the mom was a MILF.

I also prefer the dungeons in 3 over 1 and 2, although that opinion is liable to get me shot. Just didn't like the huge areas in the earlier games with obscured enemies. I was happy that the camera was brought down in 3, and they let you stun enemies with your sword.

So combat + dungeons make Grandia 3 my favorite Grandia. Story is whatever to me in most games.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Every Grandia game has an amazing battle system. I'd even call it my favorite.

4 really needs to happen eventually :/

 

[Ezalc]

I've heard a lot of hate for 13 and all that negativity stopped me from actually trying the game. But now that I look more into it I want to play it but I still don't like the whole this game is a giant hallway thing about it.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

This would actually make me hate SE, since they should remake V and VI before VII. Preferably remaking the former two on the 3DS in a similar fashion to IV.

I only suggest 7 because I think that would provide the highest amount of fan service to the widest international audience and would sell better than a remake of any other FF. Personally I'd prefer VI, but I'm realistic in expecting perhaps a DS/3DS remake of that one and nothing more.

I totally quoted you before you edited your post

 

[Rpgmonkey]

The restrictive AI only became more of an annoyance as your party got stronger and gained a more diverse list of abilities. Not to mention stupid stuff like Saboteurs just sitting there if the enemy has all the debuffs they can put on.

Not giving the player the ability to at least prioritize the AI's actions bothered me a lot.

There was a fair amount of customization in XIII through upgrading weapons, but the system was so abstruse and explained so poorly in-game that FAQs were required to make any real sense out of it.

There was also a major lack of any incentive to go beyond the default weapon (or one other weapon) and upgrade several different types of weapon for each character.

Though that also ties into the game's kinda broken loot/gil system.

 

[ULTROS!]

FFXIII's non-battle AI: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnj0o5w_pbY

 

[Rahxephon91]

The restrictive AI only became more of an annoyance as your party got stronger and gained a more diverse list of abilities. Not to mention stupid stuff like Saboteurs just sitting there if the enemy has all the debuffs they can put on.
/QUOTE]
Well then switch back to a different formation? How is that the games problem?

 

[Rpgmonkey]

There's a finite number of paradigm setups you can have at once. Sometimes it just happens to be only one I have at the time that's suitable for the situation.

I'd rather roles like Saboteur just keep using the spells to make up for this. It's also a pretty efficient replacement for the Commando with its own set of advantages, if the other two have to be doing something else.

 

[chaostrophy]

It's weird how they act like this appealing to Western players stuff is new to them, when FFXII did it quite well...of course there are forum people that hate it, but it seemed to be just about universally loved by critics in the West, and had a good reception overall. Lots of freedom and exploration. I wonder why the FFXIII team didn't try to work off its template, rather than forgetting it exists.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

It's weird how they act like this appealing to Western players stuff is new to them, when FFXII did it quite well...of course there are forum people that hate it, but it seemed to be just about universally loved by critics in the West, and had a good reception overall. Lots of freedom and exploration. I wonder why the FFXIII team didn't try to work off its template, rather than forgetting it exists.

I don't think they were trying to appeal to the west with XII though. They probably just did what they felt like doing.

 

[TheSeks]

What went wrong.

5) INTERNATIONAL PLAYER TESTS THAT CAME TOO LATE - Even before the current generation of consoles was introduced, it was obvious that the game market of the West was gaining momentum, and we couldn't ignore it. The sentiment that stood out the most to us at the time was the increasingly harsh criticism towards JRPGs, Linearity and command-based battles were tow of the features being perceived negatively.

What went right.

5) NARROWING DOWN POLISHING POINTS THROUGH FOCUS GROUPS - Through the focus group we conducted (mentioned in the "wrong" section), we found that, contrary to expectations, the game was received very well by Western players.

Uh... conflicting opinion, there, dudes.

 

[ULTROS!]

Uh... conflicting opinion, there, dudes.

I guess they were noticing a trend that "linearity = crap" in the west and they were worried that FFXIII would be crap because it was linear. After the focus group played it and enjoyed it, it went contrary to their expectations (which was linear = crap).

On the other hand, a number of people hated its linearity sooo.... :lol

 

[Green Mamba]

Nah, if you died in XIII, its your own fault.

This is a flat out lie. The second to last boss in the game has an instant death move that can target anyone in the party. It's not 100% accurate, but there is also absolutely no way to completely prevent it. You can stack the chances of it working on your lead character against it by equipping your lead character with a bunch of ribbons (which are not easy to get and must be upgraded to Super Ribbons to be worth anything, which is a time consuming and tedious affair), but there is no way to prevent it every time. If he decides to target your lead party member, he gets a good roll, and you get a bad one, well, there's not a fucking thing you can do about it.

EDIT: To me, this example really seems to suggest to me that leader death = game over was a decision made late in development as a quick and dirty way to up the difficulty and wasn't properly tested.

Or at least, it would, had it not been for the fact that outside of the basics of the battle system, everything gameplay related seems to have been a quick and hasty decision that wasn't properly tested.

 

[TheSeks]

I'm not even going to get into Trollxephon91's posts. They're mind-boggling brain hurting.

I guess they were noticing a trend that "linearity = crap" in the west and they were worried that FFXIII would be crap because it was linear. After the focus group played it and enjoyed it, it went contrary to their expectations (which was linear = crap).

The thing is, they could've learned this from some of us that detracted on FFX. I absolutely HATED my time with FFX. The only high-points of it was:

-Auron
-Auron
-Auron getting powerful from the Sphere Grid
-Auron
-Sphere Grid
-Auron
-And... Auron.

The liner maps for 99% of the game (RIGHT UP TO THE END GAME BIT) really REALLY bored me to tears. FFXIII's linearity killed all my hype for it (and that's coming from someone that loved the idea of FFVIII's world designer being the lead dude for it, I adored FFVIII's world, no matter how sparse).

Edit: And to clarify, if I didn't play FFXII (AKA: Best game in the series with a toss-up between 8 and it), I'd probably have had no interest in the series after 10. The linearity was THAT bad for me.

 

[badcrumble]

I didn't mind the linearity at all in FFX (though I loved exploring in FFXII) because FFX's linearity was tempered by the fact that it took place in an interesting world, was well-paced, and the fact that FFX actually had an endgame and sidequests and the ability to revisit previously visited areas.

If FFX's endgame was only the Calm Lands and Inside Sin, I'd have been disgusted.

 

[TheSeks]

I wouldn't have minded FFX's linearity if it actually opened up slightly after the tutorial bit. But it WAS the precursor FF to be "walk in a line from beginning to end: the game!" So people shocked by FFXIII's linearity and suddenly detracting from it makes me go "where the fuck were you during FFX?!"

Spoiler

And I didn't really like FFX's world. It wasn't bad, just I didn't like Blitzball and the whole "being in the water" theme for it

 

[cosmicblizzard]

The thing is, they could've learned this from some of us that detracted on FFX. I absolutely HATED my time with FFX. The only high-points of it was:

Most people agreed at the time that there was more right with X than there was wrong. I think many considering it a major evolution in the series in terms of presentation overshadowed the linearity complaints.

 

[Rahxephon91]

I'm not even going to get into Trollxephon91's posts. They're mind-boggling brain hurting.

Huh? I like how I'm the troll. What am I trolling? Being on the other side of the XIII argument and then flat out agreeing with the others is trolling? Now your post is brain hurting my friend. Oh I get it I don't agree with you so I'm wrong. I swear if you like FFXIII, this forum treats you like you are a peasant or something.

This is a flat out lie. The second to last boss in the game has an instant death move that can target anyone in the party. It's not 100% accurate, but there is also absolutely no way to completely prevent it.

Eh I forgot about that. My party leader has actually never been dealt this attack, just Vannile. Still I don't believe in any normal battle the ai should be blamed for you dieing. If you know what to do and how to manage the AI's pros and cons you should be able to win.

 

[Jerk]

Still I don't believe in any normal battle the ai should be blamed for you dieing. If you know what to do and how to manage the AI's pros and cons you should be able to win.

This is what people said about the shitty game known as P3 (P3P was awesome though); it is amazing the kind of crap people will accept from their games.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

I found FFXIII's battle AI to be spot on 99% of the time and never gave me issues.

 

[Rahxephon91]

This is what people said about the shitty game known as P3 (P3P was awesome though); it is amazing the kind of shit people will accept from their games.



It is funny.

I really hate, FFX, but really for only two reasons: Character art and writing.

Other than those two things (and terrible SG) it is actually a pretty good game (dat pacing...).

Well I certainly don't think Persona 3 is a shitty game, I really like it. But the ai in Persona 3 is really bad. Many times in Persona 3 the AI did things I disliked and no matter the tactic chosen, stupid crap would still come up. FFXIII not so much. Is it perfect? No. Would I rather control everyone? Yes, but I'm happy with how the AI operated in XIII. I think it did a great job and when compared to P3 its even phenomenal. Yes the Sab and the like are a bit annoying, but if you work the system well its not a huge deal. The ai did its job well enough that I honestly in my experience never felt I died because Hope didn't heal me correctly. No it was probably because I wasn't paying attention and was going all out.

And FFX is my favorite FF, so XIII's glaring flaws aren't such a big deal to me.

 

[Jerk]

but if you work the system well its not a huge deal. The ai did its job well enough that I honestly in my experience never felt I died because Hope didn't heal me correctly..

See, this is where I think I differ from most people that when it comes to discussion about AI in FFXIII and P3: my problem is less about the frustration that comes from dying and more from the frustration that comes with dealing with a wooden and unnecessarily contrived system.

I feel that I should not have to 'work the system' or deal with design quirks (especially when they are obviously unnecessary) to have fun.

I have the same issue with FFXII (still one of the few FFs I like).

 

[TheChaos]

1. Make for PCs
2. Dumb down for consoles
3. Profit

No mystery step.

:lol I wish. As a new convert to Steam, I have come to terms with the fact eastern devs will almost never put anything out on PCs. Well, Capcom is sometimes nice to us.

 

[ronito]

I'll have to pick it up.

And while it's a development magazine I would be interested to see if they mention anything about storytelling. As it stands FFXIII is pretty damn nonsensical.

 

[Green Mamba]

I'll have to pick it up.

And while it's a development magazine I would be interested to see if they mention anything about storytelling. As it stands FFXIII is pretty damn nonsensical.

Nonsensical nothing, it's pure bullshit.

Spoiler

The game is clearly built up as some sort of "fighting fate" thematic thing and ends with the heroes doing exactly what the villains wanted them to do yet still somehow winning.

That's like the most fucked up attempt at sending a message I think Final Fantasy has ever done.

 

[seady]

I wish they make the next FF more light-hearted like FF6 and FF9. It's rare to see JRPG getting those whimsical touches without feeling stupid nowadays.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Whats wrong with the original Sphere Grid? I love it. It allows characters to have their own roles (something that I dislike modern FF's moving away from) and then opens up later to allow mix and matching. It's pretty much the best of the modern FFs in combining the two different styles. It's better then XII because its not incredibly easy to fill up the board and have everyone be the same at the end. And it's better then XIII because it not only opens up earlier, but also dosen't basically discourage you from trying out other classes or make it harder to do so.

 

[Ezalc]

I only suggest 7 because I think that would provide the highest amount of fan service to the widest international audience and would sell better than a remake of any other FF. Personally I'd prefer VI, but I'm realistic in expecting perhaps a DS/3DS remake of that one and nothing more.

I totally quoted you before you edited your post

Yeah you did quote me before I edited it damn youuuu. But regardless, I only said what I did due to my personal dislike of the game's protagonist and antagonist. Sure I'd love to see Tifa boobs in HD but that's a small light in an otherwise emotionally "Clouded" (get it?) tunnel. I think VI would actually sell more since many praise it to be the best in the series, I can't comment on that as I haven't played that yet. I'd absolutely love a IX remake though. I got a chance to buy it recently and I absolutely loved it.

 

[charlequin]

HK, Nirolak and I were talking about this the other night. If you look at the post-mortem for FFXII from Game Developer a few years ago, you see that the structural problems that sank both projects are exactly the same: following a "waterfall" development structure (i.e. finishing one "phase" entirely before moving on) and thereby wasting human capital as team members sit around with nothing to do; drastically underestimating the technical challenges facing the team; difficulty coordinating the huge number of people involved in a project of this size and bringing them all on board to a shared vision of what the game should be; creating an excess quantity of locations and running out of time to fill them with actual content.

It's pretty clear that Square-Enix's overall development methodology simply does not scale up to projects above a certain size. SE management seems to have dismissed the problems with FFXII's development as being "rookie mistakes" due to the team's inexperience on AAA projects, but that was a mistake: Kitase's team (who had no problems whatsoever delivering on FFX and X-2) ran into the same exact issues with FFXIII and were completely unprepared to address them early on, when there was still a chance to solve them.

(This is also why it's incredibly naive to think that Versus is going to magically solve these problems. Every indication is that Versus is being developed along the exact same process, that it too went through an extended prototyping phase and has only started actual game implementation recently, and that it's going to run into strong time pressures regarding its release date.)

The thing is, they could've learned this from some of us that detracted on FFX.

Nobody was going to "learn" anything from FFX because it was an excellent, polished game that was produced efficiently, came out on time, and was widely praised in both Japan and the US. The linearity of that game was a complete non-issue, and the actual problem in XIII (that a linear structure was wedded to insufficient subsystems, sidequests, and non-combat-non-cutscene-content to break it up) wasn't present in FFX.

What they could've learned from was FFXII, but the "walled cities" at Square-Enix mean that basically no one in a position to apply lessons from FFXII was involved with FFXIII in any significant way.

 

[Kronotech]

Very interesting to see that SQE is admitting to looking to Western Developers. I didn't hate FFXIII but didn't have much fun with it either. Somehow I spent over 100 hours before finishing the story. I must have gotten slow in my JRPG genre.

I must be in the minority that actually wishes they return to turn-based. Quit trying to re-invent the wheel and end up with semi-auto battles.

 

[faridmon]

The most hatred I have for a fan of a particuler franchise are SE fans. Ignoring what is good (TWEWY, F XII, FF CC series, Chocobo Dungeon games) and hype and love what is bad (FF XIII, FF Tactics, FF VIII, Crisis Core).

piss off for giving this bloody company the wrong massage and miisdirecting its view on what is good game. You fans, destryoyed the legacy of an awsome company. Bloody giving Namura the blowjob...

 

[Beth Cyra]

The most hatred I have for a fan of a particuler franchise are SE fans. Ignoring what is good (TWEWY, F XII, FF CC series, Chocobo Dungeon games) and hype and love what is bad (FF XIII, FF Tactics, FF VIII, Crisis Core).

piss off for giving this bloody company the wrong massage and miisdirecting its view on what is good game. You fans, destryoyed the legacy of an awsome company. Bloody giving Namura the blowjob...

Nomura had almost no say in XIII other then designing a very few select characters.

I swear the only thing disgusting about the FF Fanbase is the part of it that wants to blame a character designer for everything that they feel is wrong.

Also he had no control over Tactics, that is a Matsuno game.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

HK, Nirolak and I were talking about this the other night. If you look at the post-mortem for FFXII from Game Developer a few years ago, you see that the structural problems that sank both projects are exactly the same: following a "waterfall" development structure (i.e. finishing one "phase" entirely before moving on) and thereby wasting human capital as team members sit around with nothing to do; drastically underestimating the technical challenges facing the team; difficulty coordinating the huge number of people involved in a project of this size and bringing them all on board to a shared vision of what the game should be; creating an excess quantity of locations and running out of time to fill them with actual content.

It's pretty clear that Square-Enix's overall development methodology simply does not scale up to projects above a certain size. SE management seems to have dismissed the problems with FFXII's development as being "rookie mistakes" due to the team's inexperience on AAA projects, but that was a mistake: Kitase's team (who had no problems whatsoever delivering on FFX and X-2) ran into the same exact issues with FFXIII and were completely unprepared to address them early on, when there was still a chance to solve them.

Thinking back to that FFXII post-mortem, you're completely right. I can't believe I forgot that. :lol

You would think they wouldn't have underestimated the technical side of things this time around due to the platform shift, if anything I would have thought they'd have been overly conservative there. I've seen what happens when you try to start game development before the engine and tools are ready, it never works out well.

 

[7Th]

The most hatred I have for a fan of a particuler franchise are SE fans. Ignoring what is good (TWEWY, F XII, FF CC series, Chocobo Dungeon games) and hype and love what is bad (FF XIII, FF Tactics, FF VIII, Crisis Core).

piss off for giving this bloody company the wrong massage and miisdirecting its view on what is good game. You fans, destryoyed the legacy of an awsome company. Bloody giving Namura the blowjob...

What the flying fuck?

 

[faridmon]

What the flying fuck?

Its crap and you should feel bad for liking it.

If you like tactics games you would know better: you would stay away from FF Tactics. Massively unbalanced, Great story that is thrown into oblivion for the sake of Animification. Great charcters that only stay for short periods and total time sinkage untill you find out how hollow it was.

That few hours of ending was bullshit and should never added to the game. The soundtrack was good though...

 

[Rahxephon91]

The most hatred I have for a fan of a particuler franchise are SE fans. Ignoring what is good (TWEWY, F XII, FF CC series, Chocobo Dungeon games) and hype and love what is bad (FF XIII, FF Tactics, FF VIII, Crisis Core).

piss off for giving this bloody company the wrong massage and miisdirecting its view on what is good game. You fans, destryoyed the legacy of an awsome company. Bloody giving Namura the blowjob...

Get off your fucking high hoarse.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

 

[faridmon]

Get off your fucking high hoarse.

This is what I am talking about.

I just hope low profile FF games won't get stopped produced. I am looking forward for Final Fantasy: 4 Warrior of light very much and Dissidia 012 is the one I am excited about on the PSP. Apart from that, I am sad to say this, but i am sure that SE will not make them as good I am hoping for.

Versus XIII, I am looking at you...

 

[Rahxephon91]

This is what I am talking about.

You're an idiot.

 

[Beth Cyra]

This is what I am talking about.

I just hope low profile FF games won't get stopped produced. I am looking forward for Final Fantasy: 4 Warrior of light very much and Dissidia 012 is the one I am excited about on the PSP. Apart from that, I am sad to say this, but i am sure that SE will not make them as good I am hoping for.

Versus XIII, I am looking at you...

You bitched about people sucking off Nomura and then you turn around and say that you want the PSP sequel to his idea for a anniversary game for the first 10 games and has him redesigning all of characters in the game?

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

The most hatred I have for a fan of a particuler franchise are SE fans. Ignoring what is good (TWEWY, F XII, FF CC series, Chocobo Dungeon games) and hype and love what is bad (FF XIII, FF Tactics, FF VIII, Crisis Core).

piss off for giving this bloody company the wrong massage and miisdirecting its view on what is good game. You fans, destryoyed the legacy of an awsome company. Bloody giving Namura the blowjob...

FFT bad? FFCC good? Seriously, are you from an alternate universe?

 

[Beth Cyra]

FFT bad? FFCC good? Seriously, are you from an alternate universe?

CC is rated pretty well depending on the title, outside of DS/WII game and Crystal Bearers alot of people think CC are fun in their own right.

 

[faridmon]

You bitched about people sucking off Nomura and then you turn around and say that you want the PSP sequel to his idea for a anniversary game for the first 10 games and has him redesigning all of characters in the game?

yep, because it was enjoyable, unlike his other games (well the story was trash, but hey). The point is, give your company you support the right massage.

hmm, maybe that is my right massage, well never mind me then...

FFT bad? FFCC good? Seriously, are you from an alternate universe?

SMH

when did all those monstrer got created. Hating FF CC games *walks away with a teary eyes*

You're an idiot.

whatever makes you happy, i guess...

 

[Rahxephon91]

yep, because it was enjoyable, unlike his other games (well the story was trash, but hey). The point is, give your company you support the right massage.

hmm, maybe that is my right massage, well never mind me then...


SMH

when did all those monstrer got created. Hating FF CC games *walks away with a teary eyes*

You mean. Give the company the message you only think it should have. I'm sorry not everyone likes the crap you do. I would think an adult would understand that.

whatever makes you happy, i guess...

You're right I am happy, because unlike you I'm not so egotistical as to think anyone who doesn't like specific games I like is either stupid or killing a company.

 

[Beth Cyra]

yep, because it was enjoyable, unlike his other games (well the story was trash, but hey). The point is, give your company you support the right massage.

hmm, maybe that is my right massage, well never mind me then...

Except the problem is he has no control over the gameplay in any of "his" other games outside of Kingdom Hearts.

He didn't direct FF VIII, XIII, Agito XIII or any other Final Fantasy other then Vs XIII so calling him out for it is misplaced.

 

[faridmon]

Except the problem is he has no control over the gameplay in any of "his" other games outside of Kingdom Hearts.

He didn't direct FF VIII, XIII, Agito XIII or any other Final Fantasy other then Vs XIII so calling him out for it is misplaced.

He did Dircted Advent Childeren and thats where all other subsequent FF games he directed have influence from. Kitase is his lapdog and Nojima is just another one.

They all are the force of destruction of the franchise.

Maybe I should call out on the Namuro team.

 

[Skilletor]

Its crap and you should feel bad for liking it.

If you like tactics games you would know better: you would stay away from FF Tactics. Massively unbalanced, Great story that is thrown into oblivion for the sake of Animification. Great charcters that only stay for short periods and total time sinkage untill you find out how hollow it was.

That few hours of ending was bullshit and should never added to the game. The soundtrack was good though...

If being unbalanced is a strike against FFT, then none of the Final Fantasy games are good.