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Official 1up Yours GDC Week Thread of Resistance Hatin', Babbling Vagabonds
- Thread starter traveler
- Start date
Sadly, I can see Shawn getting into these kind of podcasts "disagreements" many more times... It could be good podcasting, or just annoying podcasting.Crusade said:
I would have to disagree with Shawn's argument. I think you can do good narrative in video games with or without cut scenes. What matters more his the environment and the history in the games universe. I think that's whats important. If you have this game and you just throw in a bunch of lazy, flashy cut scenes with no substance (which happens a lot in this industry) then its crap. You could also have brilliant cut scenes in a game that doesn't have a universe thats appealing or rich, and thats also bad. What works is a game with a great universe/environment that you play the actually game in, AND THEN when a cut scene happens it works in the game's universe and makes the experience better for the player.
chicken_ramen
Member
Mar_ said:
I think they all understood this. The problem is I don't think you can tell the sort of stories that developers want to tell when the language of games is defined by player interaction. Maybe developers should be trying to tell different stories. The stories usually told in games are completely outside of meaningful interaction. In game there's no way to tell the story of Uncharted, for example, when characters can't talk to each other because the language of a shooter doesn't allow for a talk option. Already games are, in a gross generalisation, limited to story types that revolve around violence, and the further constraint of keeping the narrative only to the internal vocabulary is an extra problem that perhaps is too hard to overcome for some.
I think there's still room for both. I like traditional stories augmenting the game and keeping me compelled, like a movie I unlock by completing a small challenge. It's going to take a true visionary to find the types of compelling experiences that can be portrayed in the way that Shawn seems to want, until then I'm happy with what I can get.
Otherwise, great show, both guests were highly intelligent and brought interesting discussion.
I think the reason why Shawn is championing non cut scenes narrative is probably due to that fact that not many games do this and the few games that do it do a VERY good job at it. He listed Half life, Ico and Shadow of the colossus as examples of this. Its true that those games are very unique, one of a kind, a breath of fresh air that are different from the usual stuff we are used to. However, if the tables were turned the other way around, and many games used in game narrative instead of cutscenes then people would be indifferent to the former method of story telling. Imagine if the market is flooded with games like shadow of the Colossus and Ico clones ( and most of them suck at it) then suddenly a game like MGS games along and blew people away with its cinematic story telling?
The case did happen when Final Fantasy 7 was first introduced to the market and those CG cutscenes was so good, unique, and leaps and bounds ahead of anything people had ever seen that it blew people away instantly at that time. And then all the clones started copying it (some very badly) until it wasn't as special at it used to be.
I'm sure once games starts to adopt both methods equally, people wont even be having this discussion. But its wrong to assume one is superior to another.
The case did happen when Final Fantasy 7 was first introduced to the market and those CG cutscenes was so good, unique, and leaps and bounds ahead of anything people had ever seen that it blew people away instantly at that time. And then all the clones started copying it (some very badly) until it wasn't as special at it used to be.
I'm sure once games starts to adopt both methods equally, people wont even be having this discussion. But its wrong to assume one is superior to another.
Oh poor Shawn at the end trying to get out of the internet fallout. :lol
Shawn I still love you dude even though I am a BIG MGS fan. I can accept you opinion and I am with I think Shane as he said there is room for both styles of storytelling. At least I can appreciate both and I think it's fantastic that games as a medium is so versatile.
Oh and I know Amy Henning is reading GAF from the Full Moon Show so to her: Good howing from you too and continue to give us great storys. I am still ad there will probably never be an continueation of Legacy of Kain.
Shawn I still love you dude even though I am a BIG MGS fan. I can accept you opinion and I am with I think Shane as he said there is room for both styles of storytelling. At least I can appreciate both and I think it's fantastic that games as a medium is so versatile.
Oh and I know Amy Henning is reading GAF from the Full Moon Show so to her: Good howing from you too and continue to give us great storys. I am still ad there will probably never be an continueation of Legacy of Kain.
I totally do exactly what Amy was saying, when I'm "locked" in a real-time scripted FPS like HL2 and I'm put into a "storytelling" locked room, I tend to just jump around, play around with the physics, try and shoot the allied NPCs, walk around the NPCs to hear their voices go around me with my 5.1 speakers, anything except for really focus on what they are trying to show me.
It's not like I don't pay any attention, but in situations like that I really don't see how a cutscene and an interactive locked room that plays out the same way but allowing you to walk around and essentially break the illusion differ so much that someone can instantly lose interest when a cutscene begins.
It's not like I don't pay any attention, but in situations like that I really don't see how a cutscene and an interactive locked room that plays out the same way but allowing you to walk around and essentially break the illusion differ so much that someone can instantly lose interest when a cutscene begins.
Cool podcast.
Amy is cool, Lorne is awesome, great podcast. Here's a thing Shawn, i totally think that when you go with a First person perspective you should never leave that perspective, but in a 3rd person perspective it's totally fine to use non interactive cut scenes.
For example, what happens if you want to show characters that aren't in the same room as you? That's right you have to use a cut scene. And until the 3d camera can act on it's own and use picture in picture on the fly, you will never be able to achieve the same effect, from a dramatic perspective, as you would in a non interactive cinematic cut scene.
And Shane is right, we've evolved greatly, and let's not bring it down to just one way, one thing this medium has is that it can use more than one way to tell events to the players.
So we have to accept that and not try to convince people that you gotta have a standard like you have in movies and books, i mean what can you do with a book but show words? Let's not wish the same for videogames when they can shape themselfs freely.
Amy is cool, Lorne is awesome, great podcast. Here's a thing Shawn, i totally think that when you go with a First person perspective you should never leave that perspective, but in a 3rd person perspective it's totally fine to use non interactive cut scenes.
For example, what happens if you want to show characters that aren't in the same room as you? That's right you have to use a cut scene. And until the 3d camera can act on it's own and use picture in picture on the fly, you will never be able to achieve the same effect, from a dramatic perspective, as you would in a non interactive cinematic cut scene.
And Shane is right, we've evolved greatly, and let's not bring it down to just one way, one thing this medium has is that it can use more than one way to tell events to the players.
So we have to accept that and not try to convince people that you gotta have a standard like you have in movies and books, i mean what can you do with a book but show words? Let's not wish the same for videogames when they can shape themselfs freely.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
I was impressed with Lorne's ability not to come off as a whiny kid complaining about why his games didn't sell like he did in the past couple of Edge interviews I can recall. It was a great, inciteful interview from both guests with some genuinely interesting points raised.
I'm becoming a big fan of 1upYours, a really great podcast.
I'm becoming a big fan of 1upYours, a really great podcast.
BlueSummers
Member
Why is this not on Itunes yet?!
Danielsan said:
Yeah I know... but wouldn't it be possible that they make it bc and get it up on the service? Or is it now confirmed that if a title isn't BC up until now, it'll never be an Original? If so that sucks major balls. Chances are slim of it ever turning up, but really it's the one xbox 1 game I want to play more than anything else. I didn't own the first xbox so that's tough luck for me.
that was a really good podcast.
killing the boss in mgs3 didn't do that much for me. the main reason for that is that the boss--even though she was a great character--had awful va. i can understand what they were trying to do with it, trying to make her sound like that, but i doubt she was supposed to sound so dull and, i dunno, flat. i just didn't really care about the boss that much.
the part where you had to--but can't--kill grey fox actually did much more for me--i didn't want grey fox to die. and even when you press the o-button, you can hear snake saying, ''no, i can't do it,'' while grey's being squished against a wall. that was pretty awesome, but what it made even better was that they were both friends, and--yeah, this is very important to me--his va was excellent. i cared about him.
and i'm talking more about the va here, than the actual cutscenes--but va is a pretty big thing for me if we're talking about ''caring'' and ''being touched by'' etc.
traveler said:
killing the boss in mgs3 didn't do that much for me. the main reason for that is that the boss--even though she was a great character--had awful va. i can understand what they were trying to do with it, trying to make her sound like that, but i doubt she was supposed to sound so dull and, i dunno, flat. i just didn't really care about the boss that much.
the part where you had to--but can't--kill grey fox actually did much more for me--i didn't want grey fox to die. and even when you press the o-button, you can hear snake saying, ''no, i can't do it,'' while grey's being squished against a wall. that was pretty awesome, but what it made even better was that they were both friends, and--yeah, this is very important to me--his va was excellent. i cared about him.
and i'm talking more about the va here, than the actual cutscenes--but va is a pretty big thing for me if we're talking about ''caring'' and ''being touched by'' etc.
Opus Angelorum
Member
I'm going to just come out and say it:
Shawn is too intelligent for this podcast.
Shawn is too intelligent for this podcast.
I love Shawn's opinions most of the time, but I just think he's dead wrong about Metal Gear and narrative in games in general.
Half-Life is the one game that I can think of that has exceptional narrative without ANY cutscenes, and even it doesn't move me in the same way that Metal Gear Solid 3 does. I'm in the same boat as Amy in that during an important Half-Life 2 scene, I feel like an idiot if I just stand there and look at it, and I feel like a bigger idiot if I'm strafing around trying to get a nice camera angle of the facial expressions and emotions being displayed through the other characters.
I also laughed when he asked who they felt more for: The Boss, Yorda, or Alex Vance. I knew he wanted them to say Alex, but when my character, the guy that I'm controlling, has no personality and has never once displayed any affection for her, it's hard for me to feel any different. Even without cutscenes, if they gave Gordon a voice then I could see caring about the universe more, but as it stands running around staring at people as an emotionless mute doesn't move me much at all.
And maybe it's because I'm stuck in my ways with movie-like storytelling through cutscenes, but even on this Shawn seems like he has double standards. Breaking the fourth wall in MGS2 was OK because it happened during the Codec sequence? So... emulating radio drama storytelling is fine, but emulating movie storytelling is trite?
Half-Life is the one game that I can think of that has exceptional narrative without ANY cutscenes, and even it doesn't move me in the same way that Metal Gear Solid 3 does. I'm in the same boat as Amy in that during an important Half-Life 2 scene, I feel like an idiot if I just stand there and look at it, and I feel like a bigger idiot if I'm strafing around trying to get a nice camera angle of the facial expressions and emotions being displayed through the other characters.
I also laughed when he asked who they felt more for: The Boss, Yorda, or Alex Vance. I knew he wanted them to say Alex, but when my character, the guy that I'm controlling, has no personality and has never once displayed any affection for her, it's hard for me to feel any different. Even without cutscenes, if they gave Gordon a voice then I could see caring about the universe more, but as it stands running around staring at people as an emotionless mute doesn't move me much at all.
And maybe it's because I'm stuck in my ways with movie-like storytelling through cutscenes, but even on this Shawn seems like he has double standards. Breaking the fourth wall in MGS2 was OK because it happened during the Codec sequence? So... emulating radio drama storytelling is fine, but emulating movie storytelling is trite?
I would disagree that shawn is too intelligent for this podcast, I think this podcast needs shawn and his different opinions and intelligent debate.
No one is ever going to agree 100 percent with what any person says, but you take their point of view onboard and respect it for what it is.
And Shawn don't worry about the fallout, say what you think and stick by it.
I know I respect your opinion all the more because you don't flip flop on these issues just because others disagree.
Excellent podcast, Amy is a very intelligent lady and seems on top of her game and Lorne is always funny and makes some excellent points.
Good job.
No one is ever going to agree 100 percent with what any person says, but you take their point of view onboard and respect it for what it is.
And Shawn don't worry about the fallout, say what you think and stick by it.
I know I respect your opinion all the more because you don't flip flop on these issues just because others disagree.
Excellent podcast, Amy is a very intelligent lady and seems on top of her game and Lorne is always funny and makes some excellent points.
Good job.
I totally disagree with Shawn on this. And I appreciate the point Amy made. Cut scenes fore us to follow a certain story, or focus on specific emotions and actions, as if to fully realise the character(s) we're watching. When you give full control to a player, sometimes they can drift or look away, using that control and totally miss narrative points of importance. Be it emotions in facial expressions, actions from different angles etc. Take the "Would you kindly" revelation in Bioshock. Were it not a cut-scene, the wrong movement or angle if it were in-game could have totally ruined the atmosphere and suspense of the scene.
Another example, Aries in FFVII being stabbed for instance. Can you imagine that being done in-game as opposed to a cut-scene? It wouldn't have had nearly as much force. You would have basically only seen the back of her as Sephiroth jumped down and jabbed her. You may not have even caught it, or Sephiroth, his face etc depending on the speed at which you moved or the angle at which you were watching. Cut-scenes while not always the best option, are still essential to convey certain narrative elements imo.
Another example, Aries in FFVII being stabbed for instance. Can you imagine that being done in-game as opposed to a cut-scene? It wouldn't have had nearly as much force. You would have basically only seen the back of her as Sephiroth jumped down and jabbed her. You may not have even caught it, or Sephiroth, his face etc depending on the speed at which you moved or the angle at which you were watching. Cut-scenes while not always the best option, are still essential to convey certain narrative elements imo.
DjangoReinhardt
Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
To me, these examples reflect a failure on the part of the game designers at the conceptual stage. They're not writing for the medium; they're grafting a story onto a game, or vice versa. That's why we get all of the awkward exposition. That why we see the incongruities even in Half-Life 2 or SotC. Hennig's HL example highlights a problem with Valve's execution, not with in-game storytelling itself. It's going to take awhile for that sort of storytelling to feel as natural as it should in games, but it's going to take even longer if developers spend all their time avoiding it by making prettier cutscenes. Those just address the symptoms, rather than the illness.nib95 said:
It's interesting that Lost Odyssey was used in that discussion the way it was, because I'd argue that in terms of technique it falls closer toward the ICO end of the spectrum. It's the minimalist presentation within those Thousand Year Dreams that allow room for interpretation, and ultimately gave me a far stronger emotional attachment than the rest of the game (though disc 3 rocks, come back to me on that).
blindrocket
Member
Amy rules. Naughty Dog rules. Uncharted rules.
Cutscenes in games like Uncharted and Metal Gear Solid > Half-Life first-person narration.
There is room in the industry for both and I'm glad that there isn't a stuck standard. Devs should use what is best for their game and what they excel at as a team.
Cutscenes in games like Uncharted and Metal Gear Solid > Half-Life first-person narration.
There is room in the industry for both and I'm glad that there isn't a stuck standard. Devs should use what is best for their game and what they excel at as a team.
Posted by dark10x in another thread:
I mostly agree with this, yet the first thing I did when I got control of the protagonist was to swim closer to the plane wreckage. I could muffled screams coming from the plane... the only problem is that the lines of the other survivors repeated pretty shortly, and even with the inferno going on, the screams kept going for, what, 10 minutes (which was when I left for the tower).
The result = immersion killed total. So there definitely are pros and cons to both storytelling methods.
dark10x said:
I mostly agree with this, yet the first thing I did when I got control of the protagonist was to swim closer to the plane wreckage. I could muffled screams coming from the plane... the only problem is that the lines of the other survivors repeated pretty shortly, and even with the inferno going on, the screams kept going for, what, 10 minutes (which was when I left for the tower).
The result = immersion killed total. So there definitely are pros and cons to both storytelling methods.
dfyb said:Amy Hennig basically mirrored my argument against Shawn's "cutscenes are bad" argument. as much as i like half-life, i don't necessarily think every game needs to tell a story like half-life does. it's silly to say cutscenes are not a valid tool for games to deliver story. games are not totally unlike film -- games are basically capable of absorbing the qualities of film, so it's only natural for games to borrow things like cutscenes.
and Shawn still doesn't seem to get that metal gear solid's delivery (dialog, script, action, etc) are arguably postmodern in nature. it is intentional. it is ridiculous, it is sometimes silly, but it's not by accident. metal gear solid games are masterpieces, just like half-life games -- they simply go about it differently (in terms of delivery but also in terms of how the dialog and script is written).
edit:
supporting argument:
I just want to tell you (and remind Shane as well) that you're throwing the term postmodern at someone who did a grad program in humanities. This isn't necessarily a good thing. But it sure as hell means that postmodern isn't the magic word for me that it is for you. Maybe Glanton can jump in here for me as I have to go at the moment. : )
And I don't think every game needs to tell a story in the way that Half-Life does either. Not sure where this is coming from.
FartOfWar said:
I agree that people are using the term too loosely in regard to Metal Gear but I do feel that the games do contain some aspects of post modernism such as the notion of hyperreality. Metal Gear does really nothing that hasn't been brought up before but it still uses some basic post modern theory in a few instances and to a relatively minor effect.
stotch said:
Say, Uncharted, which is what Amy was arguing. In that game, you have several moments of interaction between two characters (or more characters) and your character is right in the thick of it. In Half Life--and perhaps Valve just hasn't figured this out yet-- you're really not able to interact in any human way with the environment or the characters. Sure, you can pick up things and watch them float in the air, but you can't hug Alyx. You can't give her a pat on the back, or a high five. You can't gesture to save
Eli
And that's what she was saying-- whether or not it be technology or that we just haven't found how to do it yet, cutscenes and direct linear narrative offer some tools that games like Half Life 2 simply don't have available to them. Now some people would argue that Gordon's inability to move is not necessarily a liability, but I highly doubt that Amy would take that position.
Wow, great podcast. Both Amy and Lorne were awesome, some very interesting topic discussions, allthough i found the cutscene/storytelling hard to follow, especially Shawn's part. But english isn't my native language so that probably has some to do with it.
Yup, exactly the example i wanted to make. Like hanging out in his girlfriend apartment, the option to sit with her on a couch and stuff like that made me feel much closer to that character than running circle's around Alex.Ceb said:
Danne-Danger
Member
But ICO does use cutscenes, granted that you get your emotional bond in the gameplay but it still takes control out of your hands when it wants to tell you something.stotch said:
Oh and Shawn, did you finish ICO? What did you think of it?
MasterCharged
Member
dfyb said:
someone should tell bungie that this is how a fucking man cannon should look like:lol
The only problem with narration in 1st person perspective entirely (i.e HL2) is that it leaves very little room for additional perspective, and you only get one 'side' of the story so to speak.
Sometimes it's nice to just pull back and see a little bit more, and actually experience everything from multiple perspectives. I don't think there's anything wrong with mixing both in and out, and was actually something I found was mixed quite well in The Darkness. It wasn't an amazing game, but it has a great share of story telling through both 1st person perspective, and 3rd person, and it works out wonderfully when needed to add some extra perspective. Something just can't be 'captured' through 1st person.
Sometimes it's nice to just pull back and see a little bit more, and actually experience everything from multiple perspectives. I don't think there's anything wrong with mixing both in and out, and was actually something I found was mixed quite well in The Darkness. It wasn't an amazing game, but it has a great share of story telling through both 1st person perspective, and 3rd person, and it works out wonderfully when needed to add some extra perspective. Something just can't be 'captured' through 1st person.
krypt0nian
Banned
Opus Angelorum said:
I cannot comprehend where you get this from.