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[mckmas8808]

I'd argue it's the opposite. Gaming always allowed those on the margins of society to find a place (the screwups, the oddballs). What we're seeing now is the inverse: an attempt to make mainstream audiences find gaming more acceptable.

This isn't completely true. It's true for the average nerd in the early 90s maybe, but many black people haven't felt this way. And there's been many women that have voiced their opinion over the years where they haven't felt really accepted.

 

[ROMhack]

Anyone remember Offworld.com ? It was such a bad example of a gaming website that put politics first, gaming last. Glad it had a quick death as the site was practically dead after a few months.

Yes and funny you should mention that because I found Leigh Alexander (the editor) to be intolerable back in 2008 (she used to write for Edge).

Edit: The style Offworld aimed for reminds me of an earlier collaborative website called Nightmare Mode. It was the type of site that tried to be serious about games criticism and did inevitably include discussion about gender and identity, but was in no way dominated by it. You can see from the link that the headlines aren't provocative, and the essays are personal rather than political. It was something I enjoyed at the time. For me, it shows the difference between then and now.

What IS Nightmare Mode?
I’m glad you asked.
Nightmare Mode refers to a group of outsiders, insiders, aliens, starfighters, and the occasional human being who refuse to work within the marketing machine. Fuck that. We write thoughtfully, meticulously, critically, sometimes absurdly about games, their industry, and their surrounding culture.

This is legitimately how critics used to think. They didn't want to be in the mainstream. It wasn't a battle for the middle like we see these days.

 

[Thiagosc777]

I understand where this guy is coming from, but it's a terrible article in my opinion. Reasons....

1. I disagree with the premise that video games are being ruined in the first place. I'm having more fun than ever.
2. Why would some people's opinion on a game(s) that you like, make you dislike it afterward?
3. I'd like to believe that most hardcore gamers would think that loot boxes are legit making some games worst. Which game has been objectively made worse because of an agenda driven game journalist?
4. It's very clear that this guy doesn't agree with the agenda that most of the people/websites have. But, is it possible that most of their viewers/readers agree with the agenda? And if so, do they feel like their games are being ruined?
5. If you are having less fun do to something Kotatku or WayPoint said about Kingdom Come, then I question how much you actually like video games in the first place. Or you may seriously need to see a therapist.

**Keypoint** Why would someone be so sensitive to the words of people that they disagree with that it makes them dislike something that they'd normally love?

Such agenda does ruin games, like, for example, Mass Effect Andromeda, Wolfenstein 2 or Battlefield V. The ME:A game designer was openly SJW and spent some time online bashing white people. And the final game definitely shows his influence.

The tactics adopted by activists in games is the same as adopted in other media (comics, TV, etc). If you think differently then they'll accuse you of being a bigot, misogynist, etc. This is designed to bully companies and individuals, who might be justifiably worried about their finances and careers, into complying. They are trying to twist companies arms by defaming them. Here is a perfect example of how SJWs operate.

Another example was ArenaNet firing coverage. It was one-sided and designed to "punish" the company for not bending the knee to their ideology.

This is as big of a problem in gaming as lootboxes, if not bigger. Downplaying it is intellectually dishonest.

People don't "like games less" because someone says something negative about them. They are worried that because of metacritic scores and bullying game developers will bend the knee and adopt this SJW agenda into their games (butch women, effeminate men, feminism, political shaming, safe spaces, etc).

 

[Zeusexy]

Totally agree with the author. At this point they're not even reviewing products anymore. They're just complaining about sjw things like the cops in spiderman or the white colonialism of tomb raider.
I remember the far cry 5 case, with reviews focused 70% on the lack of trump bashing by ubisoft and the remaining 30% on the very short analysis of the actual game. Is this useful to the consumer and the developer? No.
They should stop covering videogames and go full activists already. People are starting to take them less seriously by the day and for good reasons.

 

[Shai-Tan]

That's weird, I was thinking that gaming is the best it's ever been. More great games than I can ever get to, virtually endless supply. Indies are amazing, ps4 has a huge (and cheap) library, switch is great, PC's have insane graphics. It's all good.

I think that may be true.

The unfortunate consequence of political polarization is the inability to see how much agreement there is about what makes a good game, what counts as good writing. I have read enough of "gamergate" associated forums to think there is some prejudice behind a reactionary stance in opposition to what you might call progressive zealotry or over reach but the main problem is both sides arguing against a caricature. There is a higher cost of being unthoughtful i.e. "just making games" however that shouldn't be confused with capitulating to dumb arguments people make on the internet. The old tropes aren't sacrosanct - there are numerous faults to find in an average game that aren't merely politically valenced.

Luckily good design and writing sidestep most of the issues the author is complaining about if developers can recognize confirmation bias behind some of the more automatic reactions e.g. whining about the "sjw agenda" behind the lesbian kiss in The Last of Us 2 trailer or the "lack of representation" in Kingdom Come Deliverance (numerous examples in this thread). Developers should be thinking about these issues in a more sophisticated way than internet anime avatar randos because it will make for better immersive games even for people who think the previous status quo is fine as it is. It's not easy to bend narrative and gameplay to what might count as good history or perspective taking but thinking about the dissonance in common action tropes would make for a better game even if you're making numerous sacrifices along the way for good gameplay or story structure. Some of the conventions exist for good reasons - others are as they are because of inertia.

 

[DeleteriousObnoxious]

I think that may be true.

The unfortunate consequence of political polarization is the inability to see how much agreement there is about what makes a good game, what counts as good writing. I have read enough of "gamergate" associated forums to think there is some prejudice behind a reactionary stance in opposition to what you might call progressive zealotry or over reach but the main problem is both sides arguing against a caricature. There is a higher cost of being unthoughtful i.e. "just making games" however that shouldn't be confused with capitulating to dumb arguments people make on the internet. The old tropes aren't sacrosanct - there are numerous faults to find in an average game that aren't politically valenced.

Luckily good design and writing sidestep most of the issues the author is complaining about if developers can recognize confirmation bias behind some of the more automatic reactions e.g. whining about the "sjw agenda" behind the lesbian kiss in the Last of Us 2 trailer or the "lack of representation" in Kingdom Come Deliverance (numerous examples in this thread). Developers should be thinking about these issues in a more sophisticated way than internet anime avatar randos because it will make for better immersive games even for people who think the previous status quo is fine as it is. It's not easy to bend narrative and gameplay to what might count as good history but thinking about the dissonance in common action tropes would make for a better game even if you're making numerous sacrifices along the way. Some of the conventions exist for good reasons - others are as they are because of inertia.

Your right creators can strive to become better at tackling those issues, however as soon as you censor a artists thoughts the initial idea becomes fake

 

[appaws]

I guess you just have to know what you are getting and decide whether it is of enough value to make it worth it to listen to the politicized bullshit.

I love Retronauts. I recognize that they are a bunch of SJWs, particularly Mackey, but the show is just so good I don't care. Sometimes I cringe a bit, like during the Metroidvania episode when Parish talked about not wanting to support Shadow Complex because of the creator's "right wing" views.

Of course, I recognize their right to make whatever kind of show they want to...and I really don't care that much about their politics as long as they do such a great job talking about old games. But of course, that attitude does not seem to exist on the other side of the aisle. If there was a bunch of conservatives making a show about old games...there would be boycotts and attempts to get them fired from their civilian jobs.

 

[Thiagosc777]

whining about the "sjw agenda" behind the lesbian kiss in the Last of Us 2 trailer

How many times have you seen a romance between a man and a woman be front and center in a videogame reveal? That trailer was the perfect example of "forced diversity". It wasn't there to show what the game is about, but to score some "political points" with the "right people", so they can get all those 10/10s when it is out.

 

[ROMhack]

This isn't completely true. It's true for the average nerd in the early 90s maybe, but many black people haven't felt this way. And there's been many women that have voiced their opinion over the years where they haven't felt really accepted.

We're probably not disagree. I was trying to point out that the gaming culture is becoming more mainstream in order to make it more palatable for people who didn't previously feel like they fit in.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

Really? You can't go to Kotaku without being beaten over the head with it. Polygon, Eurogamer, RPS, Waypoint...

The vast majority of articles on Kotaku, Eurogamer and Polygon (I don't read/view the others you listed) are gaming (or other media) related and not political or social issue topics.

I can see a view that some have too high a percentage of articles on game sites, movie sites etc. are political/social issue related these days. But it's hardly the case that it's a majority of articles or that you get "beaten over the head" with them by going to most of those sites for the game news/features.

Again, I think too many people are just pathetically fragile and get triggered even seeing headlines with view points they disagree with or content that doesn't interest them. I don't get it personally as I like seeing a variety of viewpoints and find it incredibly easy to just ignore content that doesn't interest me. It's incredibly easy to not click on articles that I don't want to read, just like skipping past things that don't interest me when reading a newspaper or magazine or flipping channels on TV. Skipping some social/political gaming article I don't care about or disagree with is no harder than not clicking on an article about a game I have zero interest in. My skin is thick enough that I don't get triggered by political/social headlines that I disagree with so I just ignore those too and read the game previews, reviews, features etc.

Just seems like a lot of hypocrites on here who hated old GAF/ERA and it's thought policing who seem to want an internet that only shows them content that fits their worldviews and preferences. Consuming news and media has always meant having to sort the wheat from the chaff to find the good stuff and seeing viewpoints that go strongly against yours at times. If one can't handle that, they should probably just stick to social media and sub-Reddits where they can live in their little curated bubble.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Just seems like a lot of hypocrites on here who hated old GAF/ERA and it's thought policing who seem to want an internet that only shows them content that fits their worldviews and preferences.

No, the problem is this . You can ignore what you don't like all day long, but in the end activists in the media are bullying companies and professionals into adopting their ideology. They need to be exposed.

If you don't care about them, then why are you so defensive?

 

[Deleted member 752119]

No, the problem is this . You can ignore what you don't like all day long, but in the end activists in the media are bullying companies and professionals into adopting their ideology. They need to be exposed.

I agree with that, it just doesn't have much of anything to do with my post. I was just talking about the people who whine about there being too much political/social issue/opinion pieces on gaming sites when the vast majority of content on the major sites is gaming related. That's just stupid to me as it's not hard to just consume the content you enjoy and ignore that you don't.

But of course that doesn't mean their aren't individuals going too far in their activism who need called out. That's a different issue than people simply being triggered by seeing content they don't like/find offensive. The vast majority of political/social issue content is just opinion pieces, not campaigns trying to ruin people's careers and what not and is easily ignored.

Again, my point wasn't that people SHOULD just ignore the content. If people are like you and want to fight back against the nonsense, more power to them of course! My point was just for the whiny little bitches who don't do that and just get triggered and butthurt seeing opinions they disagree with as they're so thin skinned and/or lack the self control to just focus on the content the enjoy.

 

[Shai-Tan]

No, the problem is this . You can ignore what you don't like all day long, but in the end activists in the media are bullying companies and professionals into adopting their ideology. They need to be exposed.

If you don't care about them, then why are you so defensive?

That's run of the mill recreational outrage which is a bipartisan venture. If fits under a general rule of not taking dumb arguments seriously, not trusting hyperpartisan news that reports on it

 

[DeleteriousObnoxious]

The vast majority of articles on Kotaku, Eurogamer and Polygon (I don't read/view the others you listed) are gaming (or other media) related and not political or social issue topics.

I can see a view that some have too high a percentage of articles on game sites, movie sites etc. are political/social issue related these days. But it's hardly the case that it's a majority of articles or that you get "beaten over the head" with them by going to most of those sites for the game news/features.

Again, I think too many people are just pathetically fragile and get triggered even seeing headlines with view points they disagree with or content that doesn't interest them. I don't get it personally as I like seeing a variety of viewpoints and find it incredibly easy to just ignore content that doesn't interest me. It's incredibly easy to not click on articles that I don't want to read, just like skipping past things that don't interest me when reading a newspaper or magazine or flipping channels on TV. Skipping some social/political gaming article I don't care about or disagree with is no harder than not clicking on an article about a game I have zero interest in. My skin is thick enough that I don't get triggered by political/social headlines that I disagree with so I just ignore those too and read the game previews, reviews, features etc.

Just seems like a lot of hypocrites on here who hated old GAF/ERA and it's thought policing who seem to want an internet that only shows them content that fits their worldviews and preferences. Consuming news and media has always meant having to sort the wheat from the chaff to find the good stuff and seeing viewpoints that go strongly against yours at times. If one can't handle that, they should probably just stick to social media and sub-Reddits where they can live in their little curated bubble.

You know I am very well aware and afraid that I might sound like a old man not following with the times, like the way I don’t understand people are listening to Beatles when I was a teenager. However I still want to put my food here, while my personal childhood values are destroyed, I think what I am terrified of is that people that grew up in my age and now are making video games are silenced as well through cheer pressure. That’s censor and artistic domination, in one direction. I am as open to all people in what they should create if gay people wants to write a nice story about gays and make it into a game that’s fine with me if cyberpunk 2077 was about gays that would be fine as well. If the author choose it and thought he had something he could contribute with I need terms of views. However I don’t see that happening at all. So that’s why it needs to stop. And also it is really sad that people just want to destroy others enjoyment. If they want to push a Lara Croft lesbian create another Lara Croft. And call her something else. Don’t just call it a reboot. And then slap the same name on . It’s unrespectful to developers and creators of the original franchise as well as the people who has in decades been following them. IT makes me so sad that this is happening.

 

[Snoopycat]

"But it's predicated on making the core audience feel hated, unwanted and despised, that's not cool."

The core audience-straight white Christian men continue to be the most represented demographic in video games. That's not going away any time soon. What is being challenged are certain straight white male's ideas that it's ok for them to act like scum without repercussion

"You shouldn't have to build someone up by breaking someone else down, it's the story of the push for diversity in media today in a nutshell, it's all predicated on "fuck straight white men!"

I've never seen any journalist or developer say "fuck straight white men." The "push for diversity" is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. If some straight white men feel threatened by seeing a woman in their war game or a black guy on the cover of their shooty bang game then the problem lies with them, not diversity.

"And it was never a really serious problem in gaming, gaming culture was usually naturally welcoming back in the day, nobody cared who you were, it was all about the love of the games."

It has long been a problem in online gaming and anything that reduces the bile and hatred that idiots spew is a good thing. I've personally heard my friends taking tons of abuse while playing mp. The only reason I don't get it is cos the racists are too dumb to realise that not every black guy sounds like Bob Marley or Tupac. I got a strong Scottish accent. People have told me I sound like a Viking, so I've never been a target.

"it always an overblown issue, that's not what it's really all about anyway, that's just the pretense."

It was never an overblown issue. It's something that has affected countless people who just wanted to sit and play video games on their couches and were harrassed or insulted because of their gender/race. There is no pretense there. People have had their lives threatened. Their livelihood threatened. Their homes and families threatened. All because some fuckwads can't handle criticisms of their games or seeing anyone who doesn't look like them.

Now, the problem with the "push for diversity" as I see it has been too many people using it as a weapon against others who would have naturally been on their side but were turned away and told they were bad because they used the wrong pronoun or didn't get the issues.

On top of that we have what I would say were protected people like Sarkesian. Her message was not wrong but the way she went about spreading it and the way her guards protected her from any form of criticism definitely was. I didn't pay much attention to her but she actually seemed to have gotten drowned out by the nutters who latched onto her and the nutters who thought she was the devil. In the end she was not the problem. It was the intolerance and deliberate provocations of the crazies on both sides who were the problem. They had no interest in discussion or reaching out, they only ever cared about being right and being seen to be right. They drove the normal people away from the debate and what we ended up with were 2 groups of mentally ill people screeching at each other.

Gaming has a long history of representing minorities but it hasn't always done it well and hasn't gone far enough. The balance hasn't been right for a long time but I think that's mostly down to the rise of the bro culture that's infected it over the last decade. Before that I think it was a lot better. I don't think people cared if Lara was on the front cover or the main character of GTA was a gangster. Who knows, if things keep getting better maybe one day we'll see a white guy on the cover of an NBA game.

 

[Jagz]

So given that most of the sites out there seem to be shit, has anyone found any good games websites? Ones that tell you about the game, not the social issues?

Nichegamer.com is a personal favourite of mine.

 

[hariseldon]

How many times have you seen a romance between a man and a woman be front and center in a videogame reveal? That trailer was the perfect example of "forced diversity". It wasn't there to show what the game is about, but to score some "political points" with the "right people", so they can get all those 10/10s when it is out.

Hate to say it but he's got a point (apologies for assuming your gender).

 

[hariseldon]

The vast majority of articles on Kotaku, Eurogamer and Polygon (I don't read/view the others you listed) are gaming (or other media) related and not political or social issue topics.

I can see a view that some have too high a percentage of articles on game sites, movie sites etc. are political/social issue related these days. But it's hardly the case that it's a majority of articles or that you get "beaten over the head" with them by going to most of those sites for the game news/features.

Again, I think too many people are just pathetically fragile and get triggered even seeing headlines with view points they disagree with or content that doesn't interest them. I don't get it personally as I like seeing a variety of viewpoints and find it incredibly easy to just ignore content that doesn't interest me. It's incredibly easy to not click on articles that I don't want to read, just like skipping past things that don't interest me when reading a newspaper or magazine or flipping channels on TV. Skipping some social/political gaming article I don't care about or disagree with is no harder than not clicking on an article about a game I have zero interest in. My skin is thick enough that I don't get triggered by political/social headlines that I disagree with so I just ignore those too and read the game previews, reviews, features etc.

Just seems like a lot of hypocrites on here who hated old GAF/ERA and it's thought policing who seem to want an internet that only shows them content that fits their worldviews and preferences. Consuming news and media has always meant having to sort the wheat from the chaff to find the good stuff and seeing viewpoints that go strongly against yours at times. If one can't handle that, they should probably just stick to social media and sub-Reddits where they can live in their little curated bubble.

Re beating you over the head - agree that the majority of articles are in theory not 'about' the SJW issue, but they get crowbarred in, especially on RPS, where their rather un-diverse hires have to follow the house style. This comes through in reviews, in the comment sections, in 'conversations' with the 'writers' etc.

 

[Shai-Tan]

Your right creators can strive to become better at tackling those issues, however as soon as you censor a artists thoughts the initial idea becomes fake

I won't deny that there is a hostile climate for fan service or what might be called Grindhouse in movies from uptake of what is called "cultivation theory" which argues something like "games don't cause violence or sexism but they contribute to attitudes which cause it therefore we should purge anything that doesn't fit conservative/progressive values". I think those people overestimate the effect media has on general attitudes but the problem it's in a difficult to investigate area of social science, leaving a vacuum for people to lean more on their political and religious beliefs

 

[Deleted member 752119]

You know I am very well aware and afraid that I might sound like a old man not following with the times, like the way I don’t understand people are listening to Beatles when I was a teenager. However I still want to put my food here, while my personal childhood values are destroyed, I think what I am terrified of is that people that grew up in my age and now are making video games are silenced as well through cheer pressure. That’s censor and artistic domination, in one direction. I am as open to all people in what they should create if gay people wants to write a nice story about gays and make it into a game that’s fine with me if cyberpunk 2077 was about gays that would be fine as well. If the author choose it and thought he had something he could contribute with I need terms of views. However I don’t see that happening at all. So that’s why it needs to stop. And also it is really sad that people just want to destroy others enjoyment. If they want to push a Lara Croft lesbian create another Lara Croft. And call her something else. Don’t just call it a reboot. And then slap the same name on . It’s unrespectful to developers and creators of the original franchise as well as the people who has in decades been following them. IT makes me so sad that this is happening.

My reply above mostly hits on that. I have no issue with people fighting back against activists who take stuff too far. I was just bitching about the whiners who aren't making that point and just bitching about being triggered by seeing political/social articles that go against their worldviews rather than just ignoring them.

People trying to censor games to fit their leftist worldviews are no better than the people on the right always trying to censor violence, nudity, sex etc. to fit their conservative world views. Let artists make what they want.

On that front, I disagree with your overall point as I don't think IPs need to be held to their original creation. Whoever owns that IP can do what they want with it. If some new artist comes in and wants to make Lara Croft a lesbian, more power to them IMO. That said, I'd rather see new IP just for the sake of having more variety. Sequelitis is a huge problem in games and and movies--and yes I see the irony in that statement as a huge Star Wars fan!

 

[SonicSleuth]

I'm a lifelong liberal (Moderate centrist in some areas) who is continually bummed out by the focus on social justice issues in the game last gaming media. It doesn't help that one of the few gaming sites I can access at work is Polygon, which is obviously very concerned with social justice.

I don't need all my heroes to be non-white liberals who don't objectify others. I don't even need them to be heroes. It's been less than a decade since you got an achievement for putting a woman in the railroad tracks in Red Dead. Games are not a Clearinghouse for justice. They're a diversion. I also don't want to drop into an island and murder 99 other people.

this also extends to the loot box controversy. I'm glad lots of people care about this. I don't. I don't need your biased review because you're mad that other people have more disposable income than you do.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

Re beating you over the head - agree that the majority of articles are in theory not 'about' the SJW issue, but they get crowbarred in, especially on RPS, where their rather un-diverse hires have to follow the house style. This comes through in reviews, in the comment sections, in 'conversations' with the 'writers' etc.

Like I said, that's one of the sites I don't view/read so I can't speak to them or Waypoint etc. I'm sure there are sites that beat you over the head with it. I just don't see it on sites like Kotaku, Eurogamer, IGN, Gamespot, Giant Bomb etc. There's a fair amount of political/social content, but it's still a minority of content and I don't see it seeping over into reviews, previews, interviews etc. very often--and I'm not triggered by it when I see some comment in a game article or podcast. I just shrug it off and enjoy the rest. Too each their own though.

 

[Zekra Dezivad]

CensoredGaming is a good channel to answer this question


- The Crossdresser Sidemission has been removed
- The Tamashiro Clan's Crest has been changed because it resembled the japanese Rising Sun Imperial Flag. It's assumed that this is because the game got a korean and chinese localization.
- Kiryu's cig got removed on the cover.
- The Minigame Answer x Answer has been removed - prolly because it is too much work to localize for each market.

Nooo they cut The Crossdresser mission It was hilarious :lol:
Well, I remember that it was also very challenging and a bit frustrating in the last phase, but I am sorry for the people who can't experience one of the most crazy missions of Yakuza 3

 

[Thiagosc777]

It has long been a problem in online gaming and anything that reduces the bile and hatred that idiots spew is a good thing. I've personally heard my friends taking tons of abuse while playing mp. The only reason I don't get it is cos the racists are too dumb to realise that not every black guy sounds like Bob Marley or Tupac. I got a strong Scottish accent. People have told me I sound like a Viking, so I've never been a target.

That's BS. The culture around games vary from game to game. Some highly competitive MP shooters have had a "trash talk" culture since the days of Doom in 90s. Nobody is forced to listen to abuse, that's why many platforms offer many ways of avoiding it (blocking, reporting, party chats, muting, etc).

Gaming has always been open to everyone, either to play or create them.

 

[Shai-Tan]

You know I am very well aware and afraid that I might sound like a old man not following with the times, like the way I don’t understand people are listening to Beatles when I was a teenager. However I still want to put my food here, while my personal childhood values are destroyed, I think what I am terrified of is that people that grew up in my age and now are making video games are silenced as well through cheer pressure. That’s censor and artistic domination, in one direction. I am as open to all people in what they should create if gay people wants to write a nice story about gays and make it into a game that’s fine with me if cyberpunk 2077 was about gays that would be fine as well. If the author choose it and thought he had something he could contribute with I need terms of views. However I don’t see that happening at all. So that’s why it needs to stop. And also it is really sad that people just want to destroy others enjoyment. If they want to push a Lara Croft lesbian create another Lara Croft. And call her something else. Don’t just call it a reboot. And then slap the same name on . It’s unrespectful to developers and creators of the original franchise as well as the people who has in decades been following them. IT makes me so sad that this is happening.

You have to look past the surface there because there was an interesting discussion of those issues comparing the rpg Cyberpunk 2077 is based on to the game. Genres are also always being reinvented. Many of the tropes in cyberpunk were created in the 80s and 90s immersed in thinking about possible futures that turned out to be blind alleys or evolved into different or more nuanced concerns stylized into a dystopian form. Apparently the rpg was more nuanced than the game seemed about gender and so there was a discussion about it. If it gets greater weight in discussion it's in part due to recent activism but it doesn't come out of nowhere because cyberpunk and science fiction in general is a good genre for philosophical thinking about personal identity. If it continues to dominate discussion then maybe the issue is their vision is a little too cliched to update some of the themes in the older stories in the genre.

 

[Humdinger]

Re. the idea that Kotaku focuses mostly on games content rather than SJW stuff, here's an example of their focus on game content.

 

[hariseldon]

Like I said, that's one of the sites I don't view/read so I can't speak to them or Waypoint etc. I'm sure there are sites that beat you over the head with it. I just don't see it on sites like Kotaku, Eurogamer, IGN, Gamespot, Giant Bomb etc. There's a fair amount of political/social content, but it's still a minority of content and I don't see it seeping over into reviews, previews, interviews etc. very often--and I'm not triggered by it when I see some comment in a game article or podcast. I just shrug it off and enjoy the rest. Too each their own though.

I don't mind there being social content on a certain level. I can laugh at the ridiculousness of female armour with the best of them. It's not a question of getting triggered by some little bit of content as you seem intent on painting it, a rather odd assertion btw. When Eurogamer interviews the developer of Cyberpunk 2077 and spend the first third of the interview bugging them about gender pronouns that's bullying - trying to make the developer uncomfortable - and frankly utterly pointless and unnecessary. The point here however is not just that it annoys me, the reader, but rather that it creates a poisonous atmosphere for developers who fear that if they don't pander to these 'journalists' then those aforementioned bloggers will whip up a twitterstorm where some douche will probably end up doxxing your staff.

 

[Swauny Jones]

Nichegamer.com is a personal favourite of mine.

Had no idea this site existed... Thanks.

Honestly though I would really just love a gaming site/community that focused on the actual games themselves and what makes them great without any agenda behind it. We all spend so much time in these created worlds that a lot of the BS griping that comes out ruins the experience of a lot of games and steers people away from them as well because of said drama surrounding a title.

 

[mckmas8808]

Such agenda does ruin games, like, for example, Mass Effect Andromeda, Wolfenstein 2 or Battlefield V. The ME:A game designer was openly SJW and spent some time online bashing white people. And the final game definitely shows his influence.

The tactics adopted by activists in games is the same as adopted in other media (comics, TV, etc). If you think differently then they'll accuse you of being a bigot, misogynist, etc. This is designed to bully companies and individuals, who might be justifiably worried about their finances and careers, into complying. They are trying to twist companies arms by defaming them. Here is a perfect example of how SJWs operate.

Another example was ArenaNet firing coverage. It was one-sided and designed to "punish" the company for not bending the knee to their ideology.

This is as big of a problem in gaming as lootboxes, if not bigger. Downplaying it is intellectually dishonest.

People don't "like games less" because someone says something negative about them. They are worried that because of metacritic scores and bullying game developers will bend the knee and adopt this SJW agenda into their games (butch women, effeminate men, feminism, political shaming, safe spaces, etc).

How did activist working for Kotaku ruin Mass Effect Andromeda exactly? Battlefield V isn't out yet and most people believe (and I'd agree with them) that Wolfenstein 2 was a good to great game. These all sound like strawmen arguments.

How many times have you seen a romance between a man and a woman be front and center in a videogame reveal? That trailer was the perfect example of "forced diversity". It wasn't there to show what the game is about, but to score some "political points" with the "right people", so they can get all those 10/10s when it is out.

This post right here is why some of your guys are so mad. You can't see pass the thing you claim to hate. You want politics out of your games, yet you make things like the TLOU2 story reveal political. Forced diversity? It was a great trailer that was story revealing. The fault lies with you when you view 2 lesbians kissing as "forced diversity".

 

[Thiagosc777]

How did activist working for Kotaku ruin Mass Effect Andromeda exactly? Battlefield V isn't out yet and most people believe (and I'd agree with them) that Wolfenstein 2 was a good to great game. These all sound like strawmen arguments.

It was explained in the comment you quoted:

The tactics adopted by activists in games is the same as adopted in other media (comics, TV, etc). If you think differently then they'll accuse you of being a bigot, misogynist, etc. This is designed to bully companies and individuals, who might be justifiably worried about their finances and careers, into complying. They are trying to twist companies arms by defaming them. Here is a perfect example of how SJWs operate.

 

[DeleteriousObnoxious]

My reply above mostly hits on that. I have no issue with people fighting back against activists who take stuff too far. I was just bitching about the whiners who aren't making that point and just bitching about being triggered by seeing political/social articles that go against their worldviews rather than just ignoring them.

People trying to censor games to fit their leftist worldviews are no better than the people on the right always trying to censor violence, nudity, sex etc. to fit their conservative world views. Let artists make what they want.

On that front, I disagree with your overall point as I don't think IPs need to be held to their original creation. Whoever owns that IP can do what they want with it. If some new artist comes in and wants to make Lara Croft a lesbian, more power to them IMO. That said, I'd rather see new IP just for the sake of having more variety. Sequelitis is a huge problem in games and and movies--and yes I see the irony in that statement as a huge Star Wars fan!

Should fans and people just watch while a new instructor are telling you that the character you thought you knew now is something completely different without first making the change explainable I got nothing against artist freedom, but to me this doesn’t seem to be artist freedom and more about fitting metacritic ratings or turn in milestones. What is the point dedicating yourself to entertainment if what you like gets destroyed 10 years later.

 

[BANGS]

Gaming journalism is dead. Since the early 2000s they were on the way out but now they're really just done. Instead of working hard to gain our trust and inform us, they doubled down on their bullshit and forced themselves into irrelevancy...

 

[Shai-Tan]

I'm a lifelong liberal (Moderate centrist in some areas) who is continually bummed out by the focus on social justice issues in the game last gaming media. It doesn't help that one of the few gaming sites I can access at work is Polygon, which is obviously very concerned with social justice.

I don't need all my heroes to be non-white liberals who don't objectify others. I don't even need them to be heroes. It's been less than a decade since you got an achievement for putting a woman in the railroad tracks in Red Dead. Games are not a Clearinghouse for justice. They're a diversion. I also don't want to drop into an island and murder 99 other people.

this also extends to the loot box controversy. I'm glad lots of people care about this. I don't. I don't need your biased review because you're mad that other people have more disposable income than you do.

This is a caricature though? If you take the time to look past the obvious click bait and Twitter outrage there are more thoughtful people discussing those issues beyond dumb political tribalism that's looking for ammunition for point scoring. Part of the problem is game journalists are painfully unqualified to discuss those topics, contributing to what is labeled a "culture war" i.e. gamers (including journalists and developers) are a bunch of Philistines who argue about these issues like kids in a 100 level intro course would. Covering your eyes and ears while yelling escapism! won't resolve those tensions unless you want games to be a more narrow form than what they were already trying to be.

 

[Thiagosc777]

won't resolve those tensions

First you need to prove that there's something that needs to be resolved.

 

[mckmas8808]

How many times have you seen a romance between a man and a woman be front and center in a videogame reveal? That trailer was the perfect example of "forced diversity". It wasn't there to show what the game is about, but to score some "political points" with the "right people", so they can get all those 10/10s when it is out.

It was explained in the comment you quoted:

You never stated "HOW" it ruined 2 of those games. Wolfenstein 2 was a very well received game. Battlefield V isn't out yet, so you can't have an opinion on that yet.

 

[NickFire]

While they haven't "ruined" many games for me, they have certainly ruined the culture surrounding the hobby. In days past the culture was one of having fun, and when needed unity against people trying to take things away. I don't care what bullshit questions they are allegedly "just asking" or about their claims that they are just trying to prop people up as opposed to take things away / change things for political reasons. The goal for many in the traditional games media is now effectuating social change and nothing else. The nonstop politicizing of games, criticisms surrounding identity politics, and common themes in op eds along those lines makes clear that for them politicizing is good for business and is their primary goal at this point. Shit, one major site just outright admitted they want to review games for people who don't even play games.

Fortunately though - money talks and bullshit walks. The current political climate has let them hang on longer than expected, but the people paying for the development aren't going to keep sacrificing expected ROI in perpetuity. Certain sites outside of here can pretend they speak for the community by banishing opposing views all they want. But sales numbers show they don't speak for the vast majority of actual consumers. Shareholders will take notice.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

I don't mind there being social content on a certain level. I can laugh at the ridiculousness of female armour with the best of them. It's not a question of getting triggered by some little bit of content as you seem intent on painting it, a rather odd assertion btw. When Eurogamer interviews the developer of Cyberpunk 2077 and spend the first third of the interview bugging them about gender pronouns that's bullying - trying to make the developer uncomfortable - and frankly utterly pointless and unnecessary. The point here however is not just that it annoys me, the reader, but rather that it creates a poisonous atmosphere for developers who fear that if they don't pander to these 'journalists' then those aforementioned bloggers will whip up a twitterstorm where some douche will probably end up doxxing your staff.

Of course. My point is just that articles, interviews etc. that do that kind of thing are a minority of the articles on sites like Eurogamer, IGN, Gamespot etc. I don't like that, but it's such a small portion of articles on the major sites that it doesn't have me boycotting them and bitching about all/most game news being politicized etc. I stay off the clearly politicized places like Waypoint and what not and just enjoy the news, reviews, previews etc. on the major sites and seldom get annoyed at political stuff as it's largely contained to clear opinion pieces I simply don't click on and I just shrug off stuff like that shitty Cyberpunk interview you mentioned (i.e. stop reading when I see it's going that direction). Life's too short to get worked up about silly things like that IMO.

Should fans and people just watch while a new instructor are telling you that the character you thought you knew now is something completely different without first making the change explainable I got nothing against artist freedom, but to me this doesn’t seem to be artist freedom and more about fitting metacritic ratings or turn in milestones. What is the point dedicating yourself to entertainment if what you like gets destroyed 10 years later.

The simplest thing I'd say to that is I don't dedicate myself to entertainment. Entertainment is just silly little time wasters to relax and unwind for me. I dedicate myself to my career, my family, my friends and making the world a better place. The biggest problem with online entertainment communities--both the "journalists" and commenters/forum posters is too large a percentage are no lifers who take silly hobbies far too seriously. And it's gotten worse as social media pulled more of the regular, non-obsessive people away from forums so they've shifted more back to how they were in the 90s when the internet was new (full of nerds, fanboys etc.).

For instance, I enjoy Star Wars quite a lot--but still very casually relative to the nuts online. The way TLJ took Luke's character is very different from how I'd have envisioned that character handling the circumstances--but I had no issues with it as I respected that was the vision Johnson had and I kind of liked that it was so different than how I thought it would go. More similarly, I wouldn't be bothered at all if they did a full reboot in 10 or 20 years and made Luke black or gay or whatever. I don't have any dedication or loyalty to IP or stories. I just like good stories and characters. To each, their own of course and I respect that some do take stuff very seriously and have high levels of attachment to fictional characters.

 

[hariseldon]

dmaul I'm not sure if you're missing my point or just ignoring it. It's not about getting worked up about the content, it's about how it affects the development of games. Developers are being harangued like this in interviews and of course that affects the game that comes out. I'm not going to keep re-iterating my point as there's not much point if you don't understand.

 

[Thiagosc777]

You never stated "HOW" it ruined 2 of those games. Wolfenstein 2 was a very well received game. Battlefield V isn't out yet, so you can't have an opinion on that yet.

In ME:A the female characters were made to look ugly (more "realistic", according to SJWs), while the writing was atrocious, like the infamous trans NPC who told you, a complete stranger, about its sex change. That trans NPC is the epiome of SJW agenda. A character whose only reason to exist is to be "diverse", with an inhuman and awkward dialog designed virtue signal about how "progressive" the creators are.

EA has ruined BFV by changing the style of the game using "diversity" as a pretext.

Wokenstein 2 was a underwhelming single player game with an atrocious "woke" story full of woke tropes, appealing to SJW reviewers sensibilities, thus the high score it got.

There you go. Have a nice day.

 

[PedroPanache]

You know, I find if you don't really participate, and you're on the outside looking in, and more to the point, looking at it from anthropological perspective, much of this "are gaming journalists ruining gaming?" is ludicrous. The short answer is no, not really. But there's money to be made in perpetuating this type of outrage, people can be whipped up into a frenzy over this. Gaming has never been better, the choices we have? seemingly unlimited. But, the real truth is, there's a cottage industry that's emerged that does rather well for itself on perpetuating these outrages. The editorial piece really goes off the boil at the end, to the point he's just shouting nonsense. It must be exhausting getting worked up over this stuff.

 

[Thiagosc777]

For instance, I enjoy Star Wars quite a lot--but still very casually relative to the nuts online. The way TLJ took Luke's character is very different from how I'd have envisioned that character handling the circumstances--but I had no issues with it as I respected that was the vision Johnson had and I kind of liked that it was so different than how I thought it would go. More similarly, I wouldn't be bothered at all if they did a full reboot in 10 or 20 years and made Luke black or gay or whatever. I don't have any dedication or loyalty to IP or stories. I just like good stories and characters. To each, their own of course and I respect that some do take stuff very seriously and have high levels of attachment to fictional characters.

You are contradicting yourself. The problem is much deeper than that. Here is a good video explaining why:

Star Wars: Degrading a Mythology

 

[noonespecial]

I have never understood the recent (well, years old now) trend of blaming "gamers" and their customers in not just videogame journalism but the videogame industry as whole. I mean, does this even exist in any other consumer marker? I've never heard of car manufacturers claiming that their latest car model sold poorly because their customers were not "educated" enough. I have never heard of even a movie doing poorly at the box office due to the prospective audience members being too sexist or racist to go and see their movie.

How and why is this even a thing with videogames alone? Makes no sense to me how these company PR people and execs aren't laughed out of their jobs when they make ridiculous statements about the reason one of their "triple-A" (queue Jim Sterling's voice here) games fail to live up to expectations is "the customers' fault"? What the hell?

EDIT: Sure, now that I think about it, movies share some of this but not nearly to the same degree as videogames do.

 

[Thiagosc777]

How and why is this even a thing with videogames alone? Makes no sense to me how these company PR people and execs aren't laughed out of their jobs when they make ridiculous statements about the reason one of their "triple-A" (queue Jim Sterling's voice here) games fail to live up to expectations is "the customers' fault"? What the hell?

This is not isolated to games. It happens in comics, movies, etc.

And Jim Sterling is pretty much a populist, he just says what he thinks his audience is going to like, but won't touch controversial subjects or side with gamers when they are being attacked (like his pathetic video on the ArenaNet firing he took down). It seems he doesn't want to get on the mainstream media bad side. Maybe he doesn't want himself to become a target of character assassination by his colleagues.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

IMO social justice has always been a thing but yeah between the Dark Souls Sexist Messages and Spider Man Working With Cops articles this shit has gotten tired. The guy who wrote the DS article was even trolling on twitter before it came out hoping for people to call him on his bs so he could adopt the victimized journalist stance

I’m not saying no politics in games but Jesus just treat your audience like they aren’t brain dead slobs who need a pat on the head about how much better they are than other people

 

[Luffytubby]

Sticking your head in the sand doesn't just make it go away. Even if you ignore the journalists this piece talks about, they still have a very real impact on games. People are trying to stop this by talking about it, and letting developers know what they want. What else can they do? Maybe you're right, maybe this is just a fad that will leave in a few years. But what does the gaming industry look like afterwards? We're already seen some of the negative effects on games and developers this idology causes when it gains a foothold.

The problem isn't that these controversial subjects are being brought up and discussed, which is why I don't really agree with the editorial. The problem is that there's no fair and balanced view being presented on these issues. Reporting on this stuff is basically entirely one-sided, and this agenda infiltrates even sites where you wouldn't expect it (I never expected Giant Bomb to go that route when I watched them 10 years ago). The writer shouting "THIS STUFF DOESN'T MATTER" doesn't actually make it so. Likewise, shouting "THIS MATTERS" doesn't make it matter. It's up to journalists to present the facts so their readers can make up their own minds, and that's just not happening all that much nowadays.

You are right that sticking our heads in the sand doesn't help, but I wonder if the happenings of all of this - the cultural shift is just way too powerful an avalanche to move. I get the impression that the editorial op-eds you see on sites like Kotaku, Polygon and so on, are not to create discussion, and some of their defenders are actively against dissent or ideas that diverge. I don't think there is a lot of positive discourse to be gained from engaging with these people, who will not engage with anyone who diverge from their own idealogy. When it reaches a point where people saying things that you don't like is equivelent to assasult, then there cannot be freedom of speech- Particularly when we are making it okay to endorse violence as an act of self defense against those that commit assault.


I think being proactive can be being a fan, listener and engaging member of those outlets, youtubers and influencers who revolve around gaming who do not use anecdotal emotional porn to shut down dissent or encourage vigilante mob justice. That to me is not taking a stance, but actively saying that you don't want to support authoritarian extremism (on the left or the right).


Instead of trying to weaken bad outlets, try to empower good outlets. That is the best strategy I think.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

dmaul I'm not sure if you're missing my point or just ignoring it. It's not about getting worked up about the content, it's about how it affects the development of games. Developers are being harangued like this in interviews and of course that affects the game that comes out. I'm not going to keep re-iterating my point as there's not much point if you don't understand.

You're missing my point. I've said repeatedly that those kind of articles are problematic and I have no issues with the people that call those out and push back.

It's a very small percentage of even the political/social issue articles that are actively pressuring developers to change games though. The vast majority are just opinion pieces. Yes, opinion pieces can shape trends in media for sure--but that's just the nature of the beast. Big budget things are going to chase the mainstream market and pop culture stuff has been shifting leftward for decades so people outside of that viewpoint aren't going to be happy with the way things go in mainstream media--just like conservatives were offput with the sexual revolution in media from the 60s on. Times change and some people's tastes will get left behind in mainstream media and be catered to mostly by niche media. That said, there's still no need for keyboard warriors to be bashing developers in interviews and what not, and people should call that shit out.

 

[ROMhack]

Another thing, I've been looking at graduate jobs recently owing to the fact I have to become a real person one day. I noted that there's a shit ton of jobs where people basically spend their entire day time finding new and innovative ways to attract attention through social media and SEO. Do you guys not think that this could be a reason why success in journalism has become all about what creates clicks? Seems strange to think writers and editors wouldn't want a piece of the pie.

 

[mckmas8808]

dmaul I'm not sure if you're missing my point or just ignoring it. It's not about getting worked up about the content, it's about how it affects the development of games. Developers are being harangued like this in interviews and of course that affects the game that comes out. I'm not going to keep re-iterating my point as there's not much point if you don't understand.

How are we to be sure these articles are changing devs to make games worse?

In ME:A the female characters were made to look ugly (more "realistic", according to SJWs), while the writing was atrocious, like the infamous trans NPC who told you, a complete stranger, about its sex change. That trans NPC is the epiome of SJW agenda. A character whose only reason to exist is to be "diverse", with an inhuman and awkward dialog designed virtue signal about how "progressive" the creators are.

EA has ruined BFV by changing the style of the game using "diversity" as a pretext.

Wokenstein 2 was a underwhelming single player game with an atrocious "woke" story full of woke tropes, appealing to SJW reviewers sensibilities, thus the high score it got.

There you go. Have a nice day.

Okay so you disagree with things in games that don't share your world view. Thanks. So nothing devs did actually ruined anything. Most people and websites actually liked Wolfenstein 2. You're being an extermist.

You know, I find if you don't really participate, and you're on the outside looking in, and more to the point, looking at it from anthropological perspective, much of this "are gaming journalists ruining gaming?" is ludicrous. The short answer is no, not really. But there's money to be made in perpetuating this type of outrage, people can be whipped up into a frenzy over this. Gaming has never been better, the choices we have? seemingly unlimited. But, the real truth is, there's a cottage industry that's emerged that does rather well for itself on perpetuating these outrages. The editorial piece really goes off the boil at the end, to the point he's just shouting nonsense. It must be exhausting getting worked up over this stuff.

Keep in mind that they are speaking to an audience that agrees with them also. Lets not act like we are disagree with every WayPoint or Polygon article.

I have never understood the recent (well, years old now) trend of blaming "gamers" and their customers in not just videogame journalism but the videogame industry as whole. I mean, does this even exist in any other consumer marker? I've never heard of car manufacturers claiming that their latest car model sold poorly because their customers were not "educated" enough. I have never heard of even a movie doing poorly at the box office due to the prospective audience members being too sexist or racist to go and see their movie.

How and why is this even a thing with videogames alone? Makes no sense to me how these company PR people and execs aren't laughed out of their jobs when they make ridiculous statements about the reason one of their "triple-A" (queue Jim Sterling's voice here) games fail to live up to expectations is "the customers' fault"? What the hell?

EDIT: Sure, now that I think about it, movies share some of this but not nearly to the same degree as videogames do.

LOTS of industries are doing this now. I see it alot in the sports radio industry too. Many of them are blaming the fans of NFL football for the "decline" of the sport.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

imo the best approach would be the ideal way you would approach any troll. just don't respond. don't retweet, even to prove them wrong, it just proves them right. don't give them the attention, it is all they have. there are millions of people writing about video games, better to promote something you like then unintentionally promote something you don't like.

personally my big turn around was during the Far Cry 5 fiasco, when it seemed like gaming journalism was expecting the game to have some kind of anti-gun message, because of the recent Las Vegas shooting. then they got all upset that the game where THE ONLY MODE OF INTERACTION is shooting doesn't have an anti-gun message. just.... what? are you people serious?

 

[Mahadev]

This isn't completely true. It's true for the average nerd in the early 90s maybe, but many black people haven't felt this way. And there's been many women that have voiced their opinion over the years where they haven't felt really accepted.

He said it allowed people from the margins of society to find a place, he never said gaming would cuddle them, protect them from the big bad world, or give them special treatment. I've met a lot of black dudes since the gaming-age years, this forum and most gaming communities just didn't even give a flying shit they were black, most of the time it was such a non-issue that you'd constantly find posts here saying "oh shit I had no idea you're black". We didn't fucking care. Only since this idpol clusterfuck became popular and people kept obsessing over this crap it started being relevant. So yeah, seriously, I don't know what on earth you're talking about. Some people in the gaming community might have a problem with you but 99% of the time it's because of your ideology, not your color.