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[DunDunDunpachi]

I want to see sexy gay minorities in games!

That's the promise that many people were sold on.

"Well, now that you mention it, I would like to see [underrepresented group] in this hobby. Why not? Sounds good to me" has been most people's reaction to these things being included, with fringe groups on either side fighting about it.

However, it is crystal-clear that when these representations are implemented in the game, they are still shredded if they don't toe the "party line" to the absolute letter.

I don't have an example from videogames, but I've definitely seen it in discussions surrounding Hollywood movies, comics, and TV shows. Superheroes, specifically, have undergone a ton of progressive changes and yet there is still critique from the same "fans" (who never end up spending enough money to replace the old fans they chased off) who demanded the changes.

We've seen in criticism of black heroes "not being black enough", female heroes "not being strong enough", or gay characters "still being stereotypical". Most recently (that I'm aware of), it was the issue of a non-trans actor playing a trans role in an upcoming movie. The promise was that the representation of minority groups would continually go up, not only offering more diversity and "representation", but also increasing overall variety which would be a good thing even for the "cis white males". On its face, this seems like a reasonable idea.

But the reality is that these people-groups (they're not individual "people", just fictional amalgamations of tropes and stereotypes of another sort) must be represented according to "their" standards or else it is still anathema.

From my perspective as an outsider (I am not gay and I am neutral on the inclusion of gay content), this follows the same pattern of roping in the "fragile, defenseless minority group", promising representation, and then just pushing the examples of that minority group that agree with your overall agenda. We see this occur all the time in politics.

 

[CatCouch]

That's the promise that many people were sold on.

"Well, now that you mention it, I would like to see [underrepresented group] in this hobby. Why not? Sounds good to me" has been most people's reaction to these things being included, with fringe groups on either side fighting about it.

However, it is crystal-clear that when these representations are implemented in the game, they are still shredded if they don't toe the "party line" to the absolute letter.

I don't have an example from videogames, but I've definitely seen it in discussions surrounding Hollywood movies, comics, and TV shows. Superheroes, specifically, have undergone a ton of progressive changes and yet there is still critique from the same "fans" (who never end up spending enough money to replace the old fans they chased off) who demanded the changes.

We've seen in criticism of black heroes "not being black enough", female heroes "not being strong enough", or gay characters "still being stereotypical". Most recently (that I'm aware of), it was the issue of a non-trans actor playing a trans role in an upcoming movie. The promise was that the representation of minority groups would continually go up, not only offering more diversity and "representation", but also increasing overall variety which would be a good thing even for the "cis white males". On its face, this seems like a reasonable idea.

But the reality is that these people-groups (they're not individual "people", just fictional amalgamations of tropes and stereotypes of another sort) must be represented according to "their" standards or else it is still anathema.

From my perspective as an outsider (I am not gay and I am neutral on the inclusion of gay content), this follows the same pattern of roping in the "fragile, defenseless minority group", promising representation, and then just pushing the examples of that minority group that agree with your overall agenda. We see this occur all the time in politics.

I've seen it a few times in games. The Guardian's 2017 E3 diversity report made it sound like all the representation in games was just not good enough citing Horizon as offensive to Native Americans among complaints about lack of diverse presenters.

Polygon already went after The Last of us Part II for violence against women. Here's an article that brings Anita and gamergate into TLOUPII. Kotaku wrote apiece about the concern that the girl Ellie kisses at the beginning of the game will die making it a "bury you gays" trope. I assume no matter what happens in the game there will be articles about how wrong it is. I'm not sure what you can do since so much of this is rooted tearing down what exists, not creating more.

I, for sure, thought there would be complaints about Anthem not having romance as Bioware was one of the leaders in LGBT content in games. People can correct me if I'm wrong but I never saw any articles expressing disappointment that romance was gone. When Andromeda came out I saw more people complaining about the romances than those praising them, anyway so maybe Bioware thought it wasn't worth the effort. I don't see how losing these options is a progressive thing.

 

[danielberg]

I mean getting Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 basically banned in the west with their constant bitching already proves the "we dont want to take away your games just make them more diverse" crap a lie.
Everything they dont like is under a cross hair no matter what it is. Dooms trailer dialogue recently proved that again as did cyberpunk which apparently was not diverse enough and when that game is not enough you now that it will never be enough they always will need something to bitch about because otherwise they would be redundant so anything that sounds even a bit off from their ideology or just makes fun of certain craziness gets in trouble.

 

[Cactuarman]

This has happened in games for years and in other media as well. In comics, conservative creators have been chased out of their jobs because they supported Trump (see Ethan Van Sciver for example). Marvel and DC are pretty much SJW now, companies from a "post-meritocracy" environment, where people are hired by how they look and not by the quality of their work.

Gaming would be completely overrun when developers, either individuals or companies, who are not politically aligned with SJWs are silenced, thus removing any diversity of thought from gaming. From that point onwards, anyone willing to work in games would have to fall in line. And anyone willing to play games, would have to content themselves with American political propaganda.

We see some of it right now, like for example in Battlefield V. Not only they are pushing "diversity" in WW2, but they attack fans who don't like the shift in their focus.

Social Justice is Marxism by another name. It relies on the idea of "class struggle" and that everyone is either part of the oppressed or the oppressors (see identity politics). The real problem with that ideology is that it doesn't account for personal agency or responsibilty, thus they have to steer society in the direction of their beliefs.

The only way to do it is through removing people's choice. If the market is free to decide what it wants or not, they can't enforce one political view over another.

I still feel like you're using small examples to make really grand statements. Statements that, frankly, are a bit of stretch and pretty broad.

I'm liberal. Most of my friends are liberal. We've all be playing games and reading comics our entire lives (mid 30s). I even majored in sociology and read The Communist Manifesto in school. I seen a lot of pretentious liberals in my time and shockingly many other liberals hated these liberals. Quite honestly I think you're injecting an overarching malicious objective into a very diverse group comprised mostly of perfectly reasonable people (which is something I know is frustrating when it's done the other direction by the way). Many SJWs go too far, I'll give you that. So do some members of literally any group of people. But you're positing a group that will only hire someone "by how they look and not by the quality of their work"? That relies on "class struggle"? That only wants to remove choice? Come on now.

What choices are being removed that you no longer have the option of picking? Ethan Van Sciver was "chased out" of DC (though I would argue that him being fairly noisy about his beliefs were a bigger problem - I mean come on). Okay fine. But you can still buy his work and support his newer ventures. So you're just simply mad that DC told him to go? That's emblematic of DC being overrun by SJWs? Maybe. So... don't buy their comics I guess? That's what I mean by free market.

You can still buy comics and games featuring women with big breasts. You can still buy games that are hyper violent. You just NOW have games that feature lesbians. Games that feature women who are more "average" (for lack of a better term).

You say "removing any diversity of thought" but I feel like most of the debates I get into here are about forced diversity at the expense of what people actually want. So I guess I'm still confused.

Also, you and now danielberg both mention Marvel. I'm afraid I have some bad news...

Agenda

Agenda

Agenda

I can keep going. And I can do the same with DC. Literally since the 30s. This is why I need these "agenda" discussions to get more specific instead of big and broad. It seems to me that SJWs have always used a storytelling medium to talk about politics and diversity and social issues. Maybe the actual "problem" is that video games are now advanced enough that we can tell really fleshed out and nuanced stories? That's what I think is happening anyway.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

what games tell nuanced stories tho? Bioshock Infinite felt exploitative and surface level the way it used racism. Far Cry 5? honestly i don't know, it feels like most stories might use an element or two as woke flavoring, but there is never any structural critique, and after all the gameplay is always just Kill The Bad Person which is politically the worst place to start any discussion.

 

[InterMusketeer]

I cant agree with that. What gets journalists to the top is a mix of publicity (self made or not), sheer number of people reading their content + a certain amount of arse kissing.

Many of these reviewers, journalists and even developers only started pedaling their rhetoric after they've made it in the industry. They didn't rise to fame because of their social justice articles, that happened afterwards.

As long as writing editorial content that causes some kind of outrage results in 'reads' and exposure and 'shares', that type of content is not only encouraged but is then actively used. That's not even just an opinion, it's fact. Starve a celebrity of fame and they literally go away.

You've also missed the point slightly - it's not JUST YOU ignoring them, it's us as a community.

What community? NeoGAF? Even if we as a community were to band together and ignore these types, people would still be talking about it, supporting it elsewhere. Or perhaps you mean the gaming community in its entirety? That's impossible because it is within this community that these divides are happening. So it has to be addressed, there is no other way. Besides, no one in this thread can change what others in a community decide to do. There's no alternative to letting your own opinion be heard, and hope developers pick up on it.

Don't forget that we're not talking about nazi's killing people on the streets. We're talking about self publicising journalists talking about video games. You CAN ignore them. No-one will die. No-one gets shot. The world won't end.

Their toxic ideology is infesting this industry and potentially changing it forever, for the worst. I won't just let that happen because I care about games.

 

[Cactuarman]

I mean getting Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 basically banned in the west with their constant bitching already proves the "we dont want to take away your games just make them more diverse" crap a lie.
Everything they dont like is under a cross hair no matter what it is. Dooms trailer dialogue recently proved that again as did cyberpunk which apparently was not diverse enough and when that game is not enough you now that it will never be enough they always will need something to bitch about because otherwise they would be redundant so anything that sounds even a bit off from their ideology or just makes fun of certain craziness gets in trouble.

DOAX3 wasn't "banned", Koei Tecmo literally just made a decision. And I'd bet $1000 dollars that if they were confident that it would sell well here it would have come out. Big breasts weren't the problem. It's a niche genre that doesn't make a ton of money here. Period.

Also:

Basically, there was way more discussion of the "SJW outrage" than SJWs who were "outraged"

We're again using examples of a small minority and applying it to a larger group. Which I know is frustrating when it goes the other way... yet here we are.

 

[Cactuarman]

what games tell nuanced stories tho? Bioshock Infinite felt exploitative and surface level the way it used racism. Far Cry 5? honestly i don't know, it feels like most stories might use an element or two as woke flavoring, but there is never any structural critique, and after all the gameplay is always just Kill The Bad Person which is politically the worst place to start any discussion.

So you're trying to point out that Bioshock or, for instance, The Last of Us or Spec Ops is no more nuanced than games of 20-30 years ago? At least partly because they feature gunplay?

And I didn't say every iteration of nuanced story telling is good or successful. So the quality of the story was never part of my point. Only that developers can better attempt to tell a story about cancer (not much gunplay there by the way) in a more nuanced way than they could back in the 8-bit days.

But maybe you disagree.

 

[manfestival]

I think the problem with the current state of gaming journalism is that people create a problem when there often is not one. Then when one actually exists, it gets blown out of proportion and becomes a bigger issue simply because of the journos.

These same journos also love insulting their audiences. So they cater to some but insult their base in favor of their own opinion rather than remaining objective.

 

[ROMhack]

I think the problem with the current state of gaming journalism is that people create a problem when there often is not one. Then when one actually exists, it gets blown out of proportion and becomes a bigger issue simply because of the journos.

These same journos also love insulting their audiences. So they cater to some but insult their base in favor of their own opinion rather than remaining objective.

Hey man where were you on Page 1? This is the most succinct way of explaining things.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I think the problem with the current state of gaming journalism is that people create a problem when there often is not one. Then when one actually exists, it gets blown out of proportion and becomes a bigger issue simply because of the journos.

These same journos also love insulting their audiences. So they cater to some but insult their base in favor of their own opinion rather than remaining objective.

One's guilty of this push a narrative, not the news.

 

[OldBoyGamer]

Many of these reviewers, journalists and even developers only started pedaling their rhetoric after they've made it in the industry. They didn't rise to fame because of their social justice articles, that happened afterwards.


What community? NeoGAF? Even if we as a community were to band together and ignore these types, people would still be talking about it, supporting it elsewhere. Or perhaps you mean the gaming community in its entirety? That's impossible because it is within this community that these divides are happening. So it has to be addressed, there is no other way. Besides, no one in this thread can change what others in a community decide to do. There's no alternative to letting your own opinion be heard, and hope developers pick up on it.


Their toxic ideology is infesting this industry and potentially changing it forever, for the worst. I won't just let that happen because I care about games.

Well, first of all you're passion and dedication to games is admirable and I appreciate it for what it is.

I do see what you're saying I really do and maybe you're right that we need to ensure a balanced argument happens in discussions. Maybe I'm just saying don't START the discussions. Don't create posts sharing this nonsense to have a conversation about how bollocks it is. Because that gives it traction.

But yeh I see what you're saying about not responding to it. Fair enough.

 

[Thiagosc777]

I still feel like you're using small examples to make really grand statements. Statements that, frankly, are a bit of stretch and pretty broad.

I'm liberal. Most of my friends are liberal. We've all be playing games and reading comics our entire lives (mid 30s). I even majored in sociology and read The Communist Manifesto in school. I seen a lot of pretentious liberals in my time and shockingly many other liberals hated these liberals. Quite honestly I think you're injecting an overarching malicious objective into a very diverse group comprised mostly of perfectly reasonable people (which is something I know is frustrating when it's done the other direction by the way). Many SJWs go too far, I'll give you that. So do some members of literally any group of people. But you're positing a group that will only hire someone "by how they look and not by the quality of their work"? That relies on "class struggle"? That only wants to remove choice? Come on now.

What choices are being removed that you no longer have the option of picking? Ethan Van Sciver was "chased out" of DC (though I would argue that him being fairly noisy about his beliefs were a bigger problem - I mean come on). Okay fine. But you can still buy his work and support his newer ventures. So you're just simply mad that DC told him to go? That's emblematic of DC being overrun by SJWs? Maybe. So... don't buy their comics I guess? That's what I mean by free market.

You are awfully misinformed. That tweet that you cited as an example of "problematic behavior" is from July 2nd 2018, long after his problems with DC occurred. Nowadays he does call out SJWs online, but there's a lot more that you don't know. A long long history. There was an activist doing the usual defamation online, with the help of the activist media, etc. And at some point he just decided to leave DC.

All of that would be easy to find out if you were interested in looking into it. Instead, without knowing even half of the story, you handwave it away as if it was nothing. Again, how can you argue if you don't know the subject at hand? Don't you think you would have to first learn about the current events before jumping to conclusions?

Removing options? How about Mark Waid threatening Antarctic Press not to release a comic book from one of his critics? Did you know that? Recently Alterna Comics has been bullied by activists online. Did you bother looking into it at all?

Or activists trying to get Comicsgate indiegogos down, to prevent them from being able to fund their comics? Or retailers receiving threats if they carry comics from "undesirables"?

Or the fact that comics sales are tanking due to unqualified and untalented people being hired and characters being changed for "diversity" reasons. This person was literally hired because she looks like the character, but has ZERO knowledge about comics and never worked with them.

There is an actual professional writer who talked about it: https://comicbook.com/comics/2018/02/23/christopher-priest-interview-black-comics/

I later found out that Marvel and, to a lesser extent, DC moved into a trend where they were no longer hiring writers—they were casting writers. They’re listening to chatter on Twitter insisting that only a black lesbian writer could write a black lesbian character, and that’s nonsense. A writer writes. Tom Clancy, rest his soul, could write anything. A writer writes. All of the sudden I was no longer qualified to write anybody that didn’t look like me, and I resented that. I was really polite about it and told DC thank you for calling, blah, blah, blah.

Just to make something clear, I don't care about comics at all. I just used it as an example of what is happening to gaming. The only reason gaming hasn't reached this point of insanity yet is because it is much bigger than comics in terms of money. But the activists in the media are certainly pushing for it.

If you are interested in knowing more about the current state of comics, this channel is pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCb1OZBdnPDrUoEYW1yiO-tQ

 

[CatCouch]

DOAX3 wasn't "banned", Koei Tecmo literally just made a decision. And I'd bet $1000 dollars that if they were confident that it would sell well here it would have come out. Big breasts weren't the problem. It's a niche genre that doesn't make a ton of money here. Period.

Also:

Basically, there was way more discussion of the "SJW outrage" than SJWs who were "outraged"

We're again using examples of a small minority and applying it to a larger group. Which I know is frustrating when it goes the other way... yet here we are.

I think the outrage going both ways is a case of more people becoming aware of the other side. I mean, these fights are 6 or more years old. A lot of people are aware now. I don't believe this is indicative of both sides just being wrong or anything. I think it's more indicative of the larger gaming community getting fed up with a smaller group within it dictating what can and can't exist. Unfortunately it's now coupled with the same opportunistic, sensationalizing that's already proven to work.

For quite a while it was the "SJW's" or whatever you want to call them starting debates with questionable/debatable criticism. That's not a bad thing on it's own but the way so many shut down debate was. That makes enemies. Now I believe when these types pop up there is less tolerance for them. There's precedent for game devs editing their games when people complain online so I think there are more people willing to show up to combat and counter the small groups that do complain about games like DOOM Eternal. I think it's pretty obvious it's not about one incident with one game but the fact that this happens repeatedly, pretty much with every big game.

I disagree with parts of the video you posted though, in the middle he says that the fact that some can interpret DOOM Eternal as anti-immigrant and pro racism means the trailer is bad. I just can't get behind the idea that the ability to interpret something in a negative way makes that thing bad. He implied that racists liking the trailer was "to be expected". I'm not following that logic. I also think there was some disingenuous arguments put forth, like accusing YouTubers of copying a One Angry Gamer article when the evidence presented was quoting a tweet. The Tweet was a source, it wasn't written my OAG. Like it or not, OAG is a news source here.

I think the outrage is just a reaction to the outrage from the other side and it's proven to be successful for both writers and Youtubers. The video did bring that up and the psychology of it which was great but I still question the capitalist angle he went at since it's not uncommon for these outrages to result in editing the games. If they edit the games I'm less inclined to buy it. He didn't touch on that and I think that's one of the bigger parts of what's happening.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

So you're trying to point out that Bioshock or, for instance, The Last of Us or Spec Ops is no more nuanced than games of 20-30 years ago? At least partly because they feature gunplay?

i think the story itself in BI was poor, the gunplay is kinda just part of the medium itself. was super Errant Signal who did a video on how locating a point in x,y,z space is the simplest calculation you can do in a 3D environment. the story itself did not support the oppressors, instead choosing to reveal them to be frauds, and become the enemy themselves. plus for all the use of ghastly stereotypical imagery, we have to consider that the story was written by a white man, that that imagery was put there by a white man. kind of suspect or at the very least exploitative of historically violent imagery.

And I didn't say every iteration of nuanced story telling is good or successful. So the quality of the story was never part of my point. Only that developers can better attempt to tell a story about cancer (not much gunplay there by the way) in a more nuanced way than they could back in the 8-bit days.

But maybe you disagree.

yeah i kinda do. i mean rendering technology is better but actual writing skill is kinda going downhill imo. people read more blog-quality writing than they do paper writing, writing which takes more consideration, time, and attention to produce and publish. there was interactive fiction 20-30 years ago, just one genre being Graphic Adventure games, which were half literature, half pixel art. there is a history of text-based electronic fiction, from the popular text adventures like Zork to the MMO social games played on BBSes. im sure someone has made interactive fiction about cancer decades ago, and they probably immersed themselves in far more legit pre-internet literature than someone coming up nowadays who can get paid to just turn in their first thoughts with not even a draft. to me it is not a question of medium but of talent, effort, editing, rehearsal, study, mastering the fundamentals of the medium. it may be easier these days to publish but telling a good story is not necessarily easier.

 

[Cactuarman]

You are awfully misinformed. That tweet that you cited as an example of "problematic behavior" is from July 2nd 2018, long after his problems with DC occurred. Nowadays he does call out SJWs online, but there's a lot more that you don't know. A long long history. There was an activist doing the usual defamation online, with the help of the activist media, etc. And at some point he just decided to leave DC.

All of that would be easy to find out if you were interested in looking into it. Instead, without knowing even half of the story, you handwave it away as if it was nothing. Again, how can you argue if you don't know the subject at hand? Don't you think you would have to first learn about the current events before jumping to conclusions?

Uhhh... apologies for being awfully misinformed I guess. But these articles:

ETHAN VAN SCIVER Exits DC COMICS
Ethan Van Sciver No Longer at DC, Focusing on Creator-Owned Work

And his tweet that they cite here, are all from June 10, 2018. And his final DC comic came out late June. Maybe I'm too trusting of these articles I guess? But you seem to know more about it than me so I guess let me know.

Removing options? How about Mark Waid threatening Antarctic Press not to release a comic book from one of his critics? Did you know that? Recently Alterna Comics has been bullied by activists online. Did you bother looking into it at all?

Or activists trying to get Comicsgate indiegogos down, to prevent them from being able to fund their comics? Or retailers receiving threats if they carry comics from "undesirables"?

Or the fact that comics sales are tanking due to unqualified and untalented people being hired and characters being changed for "diversity" reasons. This person was literally hired because she looks like the character, but has ZERO knowledge about comics and never worked with them.

Again, I even said that things can be taken too far but my point was that not ALL progressives/SJWs want the same thing. Now, regarding this: Marvel is hiring a writer that your article even calls an "accomplished and talented literary writer." She just doesn't have comic book experience. ....And? Maybe Ironheart will suck. Maybe it wont. If Marvel keeps doing what they're doing and sales keep "tanking" they I guess they'll stop making comics. And then... what? You win? I just can't for the life of me make myself care about this. The original Iron Man still exists and can be read. If no one likes Ironheart then it will go way. Right now Marvel is trying something. It will either be cool in the short term or things will go back to what sells in the long term.

Just to make something clear, I don't care about comics at all. I just used it as an example of what is happening to gaming. The only reason gaming hasn't reached this point of insanity yet is because it is much bigger than comics in terms of money. But the activists in the media are certainly pushing for it.

I mean ultimately I don't need you to care about comics to understand the point I'm making. This is all doomsaying to me but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and check back in sometime in the future when all of the games are about... I don't know. Social issues I guess?

 

[Thiagosc777]

And his tweet that they cite here, are all from June 10, 2018. And his final DC comic came out late June. Maybe I'm too trusting of these articles I guess? But you seem to know more about it than me so I guess let me know.

Did you even read what I wrote?

Yes, he left DC. Sigh. So what?

I just can't for the life of me make myself care about this.

Then why are you so obstinately arguing? You obviously don't know about the recent events, and still want to claim people are wrong.

Ok, you don't care. We get it. Now walk away.

 

[Cactuarman]

Did you even read what I wrote?

Yes, he left DC. Sigh. So what?

You said: "conservative creators have been chased out of their jobs because they supported Trump (see Ethan Van Sciver for example). Marvel and DC are pretty much SJW now..."

I said: "Ethan Van Sciver was "chased out" of DC (though I would argue that him being fairly noisy about his beliefs were a bigger problem - I mean come on)."

You said: "You are awfully misinformed. That tweet that you cited as an example of "problematic behavior" is from July 2nd 2018, long after his problems with DC occurred."

I said: "And his tweet that they cite here, are all from June 10, 2018."

And then you say: "Yes, he left DC. Sigh. So what?"

Where did I go wrong here? Was he chased out of another job before DC? What event were you talking about with your first statement? Are those articles wrong? Help me out here instead of just calling me misinformed and "obviously" unaware.

Then why are you so obstinately arguing? You obviously don't know about the recent events, and still want to claim people are wrong.

Ok, you don't care. We get it. Now walk away.

No, I don't care about Eve Ewing writing Ironheart. Or any other effort Marvel makes to try and diversity their lineup. Because, like I said, either's either awesome and we keep getting it. Or it sucks and it goes away. There really isn't much of a downside to me. That's why I don't care. Nothing "obstinate" about that.

 

[RedVIper]

Uhhh... apologies for being awfully misinformed I guess. But these articles:

Now, regarding this: Marvel is hiring a writer that your article even calls an "accomplished and talented literary writer." She just doesn't have comic book experience. ....And?

If you don't see the issue with hiring someone not based on their qualifications but based on their appearance I don't know what to tell you. I'm not saying she's not somewhat qualified , but she was hired because of the way she looks like the character(In essence other people were discriminated against, they didn't even get a chance at the job because they're white/male/Asian wtv.).

If any company went: " We're only going to hire straight white guys who match the description of the main character", I'm fairly sure you wouln't be as ok about it.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Where did I go wrong here? Was he chased out of another job before DC? What event were you talking about with your first statement? Are those articles wrong? Help me out here instead of just calling me misinformed and "obviously" unaware.

You are trying to be "cute" by playing semantics. Obviously, I wasn't referring to the exact date he left DC (that was never even a point) and made references to him being attacked long before. You just ignored all of it and wrote a shitty little text with a little "gotcha! look at the date".

Who gives a f*** about the date!?

You are wasting my time.

You don't know anything about what is going on, but still feel compelled to argue with people online to tell them they are wrong. Remember, you don't care about it, right? Ok, cool. Have a nice day.

 

[Cactuarman]

If you don't see the issue with hiring someone not based on their qualifications but based on their appearance I don't know what to tell you. I'm not saying she's not somewhat qualified , but she was hired because of the way she looks like the character(In essence other people were discriminated against, they didn't even get a chance at the job because they're white/male/Asian wtv.).

But... she was hired for her qualifications... she's a writer.

You're oversimplifying, I assume, to make a point - she was hired because shares a few characteristics with the character (black, female, from Chicago), AND is an accomplished writer. Marvel is trying to bring some authenticity to the character that, just maybe, a white male, or an Asian male, or any other type of person wouldn't necessarily be able to do. A black writer was hired to write a black superhero. I just don't see the problem.

Ever read something that takes place somewhere or deals with something and it's clear that the creator doesn't really know much about that thing? Yeah.

If any company went: " We're only going to hire straight white guys who match the description of the main character", I'm fairly sure you wouln't be as ok about it.

If a comic book company only wrote about straight white guys then I'd imagine that would get boring. But a comic book company only being written by straight white guys is mostly every Marvel comic book I had growing up (plus Jim Lee). So it doesn't really bother me. But I also see the value in hiring a black writer to write about a black super hero and it does not bother me.

 

[Arimer]

One of the reasons I dont think they aren't journalists is because when the whole gamergate thing went down none of them decided to actually investiage into the story. It was to take the marching orders of their woke brethren, there is no story. It was like the Iraq war when the media just stepped in line and advertised the hell out of it for the government. Only years later did they go "oops we fucked up, turns out we should have looked behind the curtain."

What gaming journalism is is just a small group of friends all from the same area, with the same politics, advocating for each other. There is nothing represented in gaming media outside of California. Especially not form a non extreme progressive angle.

The ultimate Hypocrisy is that the ones that are all about diversity are extremely nondiverse ideologically. Its a bunch of privileged people living in San Fran or surrounding areas telling everyone else how great they are and how you should be like them. Most have probably never worked a hard job a day in their lives and would know nothing about lifestyles beyond their own.

Journalists? Not in gaming. We have a small intertwined circle of bloggers.

 

[Thiagosc777]

If you don't see the issue with hiring someone not based on their qualifications but based on their appearance I don't know what to tell you. I'm not saying she's not somewhat qualified , but she was hired because of the way she looks like the character(In essence other people were discriminated against, they didn't even get a chance at the job because they're white/male/Asian wtv.).

If any company went: " We're only going to hire straight white guys who match the description of the main character", I'm fairly sure you wouln't be as ok about it.

He is either an activist himself or is in denial. There was a link in my comment from an interview with a professional black comic book writer complaining exactly about that. He completely ignored it.

 

[Cactuarman]

You are trying to be "cute" by playing semantics. Obviously, I wasn't referring to the exact date he left DC (that was never even a point) and made references to him being attacked long before. You just ignored all of it and wrote a shitty little text with a little "gotcha! look at the date".

Who gives a f*** about the date!?

You are wasting my time.

You don't know anything about what is going on, but still feel compelled to argue with people online to tell them they are wrong. Remember, you don't care about it, right? Ok, cool. Have a nice day.

You corrected me though and then used it as evidence that I was uninformed and don't know what's going on. Which you're still doing. My point was that he was being obnoxious online before DC let him go. Which makes the date fairly important both to my awareness and my point.

I also didn't ignore anything and responded to each part of your posts.

And I don't care about Eve Ewing. Which I said. I care about the topic.

Edit: Seeing your second comment - my point from the beginning is that SJWs are not a uniform group that want the same thing. I touched on that in my first response to you.

 

[zenspider]

I feel the writer, but I think games are fine. It's ruining the discussion around them however, and it is possible that will shape content in the AAA space.

I think identity politics works better as a tool than a position. In that sense, it feels to me like the far left and right found a new toy and can't stop playing with it, and with the decreasing attention span and corporate emphasis on the capitalizing of that attention, nuance, subtly, and even the ability to change one's mind I going the way of the dodo.

 

[danielberg]

DOAX3 wasn't "banned", Koei Tecmo literally just made a decision.

You are literally too stupid for me deal with right now "hurr not banned just bullied by sjw mental cases durrr" i am so done with idiots jesus christ.

 

[Scopa]

The people advocating to everyone to “just ignore it” and look the other way are being disingenuous.

No. The answer is not to remain silent. When a normal person witnesses something wrong or just batshit crazy, the answer is to call it out. Raise awareness of the issue. This is the correct and intelligent thing to do.

The more we call it out, the more people are informed about something they otherwise may have missed.

If you want insane groupthink and thought-policing, there are places for that where you will fit right in.

 

[Xenon]

My take on this is, Companies need to be called out like with EA and BFV. But places like Polygon and Waypoint need to be ignored. In the end they are running a playbook Anita created years ago. Say outlandish shit, take vitriolic responses and use them to bolster your own credibility. They want an argument. They need it. The actual size of the people who they cater to is such a small percentage of the gaming public. Getting their articles propagated by angry tweets is their lifeblood. Like any wart, the best thing to do is deprive them of oxygen, in this case conversation. Don't respond to them, stop following them, don't repost or forward their nonsense, and definitely don't go to their websites.

 

[Cactuarman]

You are literally too stupid for me deal with right now "hurr not banned just bullied by sjw mental cases durrr" i am so done with idiots jesus christ.

I mean... the thing you said wasn't correct. No need to name call.

 

[RedVIper]

But... she was hired for her qualifications... she's a writer.

She was hired because of how she looks and her appearance shouldn't matter at all for this position. She's not a comic book writer and I'd challenged your claim thats she's an accomplished writer. Lets spin it the other way around, if she had aplied for the job and they denied her because of the way she looks would that be ok? I doubt it.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

They are basically trying to undermine and poison every entertainment construct they can get their hands on, they are brainwashed college kids that drive an agenda and that work for basically nothing which is how they get into everything, stupid companies hire them cause they are cheap (not knowing they will lose over time more money) and then shit starts as seen with marvel comics for example.
This is so in your face that anyone pretending its not a thing is immediately suspicious to me, yes i am that paranoid at this point lol

Please tell me this isn’t real. If anyone thought that this “agenda” was all in their imagination and we are not experiencing a political shift has just been proven wrong. If I was a game developer or game artist, I just couldn’t do it. It’s like taking the artist form of expression away and making into lifeless puppets.

 

[HagglesworthMD]

I always remember Giant Bombs absolute hate for steam reviews, Its almost as if they don’t want the people to have a voice and games ‘journalists’ are the only ones we should get our opinions from.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I always remember Giant Bombs absolute hate for steam reviews, Its almost as if they don’t want the people to have a voice and games ‘journalists’ are the only ones we should get our opinions from.

Probably why they jumped on the identity politics train now. Scrounging for those site hits since reviews and streamers are more readily available to gamers from gamers.

 

[oagboghi2]

My take on this is, Companies need to be called out like with EA and BFV. But places like Polygon and Waypoint need to be ignored. In the end they are running a playbook Anita created years ago. Say outlandish shit, take vitriolic responses and use them to bolster your own credibility. They want an argument. They need it. The actual size of the people who they cater to is such a small percentage of the gaming public. Getting their articles propagated by angry tweets is their lifeblood. Like any wart, the best thing to do is deprive them of oxygen, in this case conversation. Don't respond to them, stop following them, don't repost or forward their nonsense, and definitely don't go to their websites.

I commented on this in the verge thread, but this is very true. These websites like Polygona nd Waypint are happy when they make clickbait that angers people.

Whenever a website like Polygon does something dumb, some moron, from anywhere in the world will post something stupid, or racist or sexist. To the journo's this is like striking gold, because now they can write another story about "toxic fandoms, toxic gaming, toxic blah blah blah" and people eat that shit up.

A lot of these journo's don't want to write about gaming for the rest of their lives. They want to write about more serious things, They want to get on stage and be treated as a big deal. They want to write for the Times and the Post. They will never get there covering videogames, but covering ...I don't know, "racism in fortnite" or rightwing discord channels" that is a opportunity for them.

Their industry is built off of making controversy and being angry with that audience.

 

[oagboghi2]

One of the reasons I dont think they aren't journalists is because when the whole gamergate thing went down none of them decided to actually investiage into the story. It was to take the marching orders of their woke brethren, there is no story. It was like the Iraq war when the media just stepped in line and advertised the hell out of it for the government. Only years later did they go "oops we fucked up, turns out we should have looked behind the curtain."

What gaming journalism is is just a small group of friends all from the same area, with the same politics, advocating for each other. There is nothing represented in gaming media outside of California. Especially not form a non extreme progressive angle.

The ultimate Hypocrisy is that the ones that are all about diversity are extremely nondiverse ideologically. Its a bunch of privileged people living in San Fran or surrounding areas telling everyone else how great they are and how you should be like them. Most have probably never worked a hard job a day in their lives and would know nothing about lifestyles beyond their own.

Journalists? Not in gaming. We have a small intertwined circle of bloggers.

Actually I think one of the founders of Polygon lived in Virginaia or some eastern state. i don't remember

but everything thing else I agree with. Funny story. IGN and Gamespot are literally on the same street in San Francisco. 2nd Street, down from market street. IGN is across the street from giants stadium, and walk up that street and gamespot/giant bomb are across the street from linkedIn new offices. There are a ton of other gaming media websites in the SOMA as well. They all cross pollinante, and the majority of them, to a fucking tee, are the same person. They all vote the same, think the same, act the same. It's honestly kinda funny.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Actually I think one of the founders of Polygon lived in Virginaia or some eastern state. i don't remember

but everything thing else I agree with. Funny story. IGN and Gamespot are literally on the same street in San Francisco. 2nd Street, down from market street. IGN is across the street from giants stadium, and walk up that street and gamespot/giant bomb are across the street from linkedIn new offices. There are a ton of other gaming media websites in the SOMA as well. They all cross pollinante, and the majority of them, to a fucking tee, are the same person. They all vote the same, think the same, act the same. It's honestly kinda funny.

I think I'm still friends with Brian Crecente on Facebook, and when they started Polygon he was living in Colorado but now he lives in New York for Variety I think.

 

[Arimer]

Actually I think one of the founders of Polygon lived in Virginaia or some eastern state. i don't remember

but everything thing else I agree with. Funny story. IGN and Gamespot are literally on the same street in San Francisco. 2nd Street, down from market street. IGN is across the street from giants stadium, and walk up that street and gamespot/giant bomb are across the street from linkedIn new offices. There are a ton of other gaming media websites in the SOMA as well. They all cross pollinante, and the majority of them, to a fucking tee, are the same person. They all vote the same, think the same, act the same. It's honestly kinda funny.

That's exactly the problem too. They are one microscopic element of society that is vastly over-represented in gaming and heck the overall media of all forms in general. There are so many other view points, lifestyles, cultures or whatever you want to say that could be represented to give game journalism more "diversity"

Also being such a small group int he same geographic area means you can easily buy them out, or influence them. Get one on your side and they'll convince the others (as seen by the mailing list thing)

And ultimitately having everyone exactly the same leads to poor competition which leads to a poor product which deprives us of choice in our gaming media. Right now i can go to Polygon, Kotaku, waypoint, and many others and i know i'll read exactly the same thing. Heck if the sites were smart they'd lay everyone off at all of them and just make them freelance among them all because none of them have an original thought or point of view.

 

[JohannCK]

To be honest though, I can't help but feel like clickbait articles are right now the way to run internet news sites. Running controversial articles seems to be most pragmatic way to get clicks.

Anyone can just write some silly bait straight out of 4chan, no research or insight in particular required, and get a million hits when it explodes on Twitter with people screaming at the writer or screaming at the people screaming at the writer.

Our site refrains from clickbait and tries to put up as much in-depth articles from primary sources as we can but half a year in and the majority of our articles don't even get to 3000 hits. I can't help but think that people just don't really want "quality journalism", they want entertainment, and clickbait is how they get it, regardless of which side they're on, and they're way more inclined to share it online too.

I really don't see this as a political thing as much as a scummy business practice. The individual writers may not be aware in some cases, but their higher-ups almost certainly are.

 

[CrapSandwich]

I actually think gaming is pretty good right now. If I could time travel back to when I was twelve and give myself the games of today, I would literally piss/shit/puke/cum at the same time from the sheer awesomeness of it.

 

[Lionel Richie]

The people advocating to everyone to “just ignore it” and look the other way are being disingenuous.

No. The answer is not to remain silent. When a normal person witnesses something wrong or just batshit crazy, the answer is to call it out. Raise awareness of the issue. This is the correct and intelligent thing to do.

The more we call it out, the more people are informed about something they otherwise may have missed.

If you want insane groupthink and thought-policing, there are places for that where you will fit right in.

I'm not sure "just ignore it" is really a fair way to put some of the arguments presented, it's more like "don't overreact to it".

 

[Scopa]

I'm not sure "just ignore it" is really a fair way to put some of the arguments presented, it's more like "don't overreact to it".

No, some people are saying “ignore it and it’ll go away”. This is blatantly untrue.

 

[hariseldon]

Marvel is trying to bring some authenticity to the character that, just maybe, a white male, or an Asian male, or any other type of person wouldn't necessarily be able to do. A black writer was hired to write a black superhero. I just don't see the problem.

This is problematic. How might one go about writing a book with characters from all sorts of different backgrounds if the only people qualified to write about them are people from those backgrounds? Is there no value to the detached observer? I'm pretty sure that if, because I can only write about straight white males, I wrote only about straight white males, I would get a tonne of SJW complaints. It's classic heads-I-win-tails-you-lose stuff. Do we go further and say that only people who lived through World War 2 can write about it or make games about it? Also problematic then because.. hmm.. there aren't too many of those guys left. How far down do we go? Do we need to have the same hair style as the person we write? Do we need to eat the same breakfast? Ok I'm going a little hyperbolic there for comedic effect but hopefully you see my point.

 

[hariseldon]

What gaming journalism is is just a small group of friends all from the same area, with the same politics, advocating for each other. There is nothing represented in gaming media outside of California. Especially not form a non extreme progressive angle.

The ultimate Hypocrisy is that the ones that are all about diversity are extremely nondiverse ideologically. Its a bunch of privileged people living in San Fran or surrounding areas telling everyone else how great they are and how you should be like them. Most have probably never worked a hard job a day in their lives and would know nothing about lifestyles beyond their own.

Journalists? Not in gaming. We have a small intertwined circle of bloggers.

Actually quite a few are in Bath and Bristol area in the UK (possibly a result of Future Publishing being based there back in the day - are they still?) as well - see RPS - note that both towns are hives of hipster activity. They're very fucking woke. I did try to point out the lack of diversity but one of their writers shouted me down with an incessant barrage of aggressiveness, as is their way. The rest I agree with though.

 

[Paracelsus]

I actually think gaming is pretty good right now. If I could time travel back to when I was twelve and give myself the games of today, I would literally piss/shit/puke/cum at the same time from the sheer awesomeness of it.

Sure, if you were 12 in 1981. If you were 12 in the 90s? Not a chance.

 

[LukeSkywater]

Probably why they jumped on the identity politics train now. Scrounging for those site hits since reviews and streamers are more readily available to gamers from gamers.

You just hate Dream Daddy, don't you?

 

[DeepEnigma]

You just hate Dream Daddy, don't you?

TBH, I just had to Google that one, lol. I have heard it in passing posts, but never really looked into it.

 

[LukeSkywater]

TBH, I just had to Google that one, lol. I have heard it in passing posts, but never really looked into it.

That was the final nail in the coffin for me with Giant Bomb. I look forward to the day CBSi folds them into Gamespot and fires the majority of the staff.

 

[DeepEnigma]

That was the final nail in the coffin for me with Giant Bomb. I look forward to the day CBSi folds them into Gamespot and fires the majority of the staff.

Gerstmann round 2, lol.

 

[Scopa]

TBH, I just had to Google that one, lol. I have heard it in passing posts, but never really looked into it.

Whatever you do, don’t go back and listen to last years Giant Bomb GotY podcasts. You can never get those hours back.

 

[LukeSkywater]

Whatever you do, don’t go back and listen to last years Giant Bomb GotY podcasts. You can never get those hours back.

They should really send those podcasts to Gitmo and use it for interrogations of terrorists.......I'M ABBEYYYYYYY. DREAM DADDY IS VERY VERY GOOD...