Penny-Arcade: "Marketers of the Avenger Controller are thieves and liars".

SpeedingUptoStop

will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
Feb 24, 2005
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#1
Keeping it way too real, guys. Buckle up.
http://penny-arcade.com/2011/12/26/just-wow1
Just Wow!
Gabe@cwgabrielTuesday, December 27 2011 - 12:30 AM

I got an incredible email today from a Penny Arcade reader. Dave shared with me an email chain between him and Ocean Marketing (the folks behind the Avenger controller) Trust me when I tell you that this is one wild ride. I’m serious, Mr. Toad would look at this ride and just give a slow clap while shaking his head. I have tried to arrange this as best I can in chronological order. I’ve also removed email addresses and other private information. So let’s just jump right in, here is Dave’s first mail to Ocean Marketing:

From: Dave
To: Ocean Marketing
Dec 16, 2011, at 1:34 PM

I ordered 2 of the upcoming PS3 controllers (invoice xxxxxxxxx—Nov 3, 2011). Any chance of getting an update of when these items will ship? I’m not really happy about being forced to pay upfront then have the advertised date of “Early December” be completely missed without any sort of update on availability. I really need one of them for a X-mas present as well. Anyways, looking forward to finally using one of these bad boys. Thanks and happy holidays.

-Dave

From: Ocean Marketing
To: Dave
Dec 16, 2011 2:45 PM

Dec 17

- Paul Christoforo

From: Dave
To: Ocean Marketing
Dec 19, 2011, at 11:02 AM

Thanks for the reply Paul. Can you clarify whether my particular order already sent or if Dec 17 was the first day shipments went out? I have not received any sort of shipping confirmation email or tracking information.

From: Ocean Marketing
To: Dave
Dec 19, 2011 11:21 AM

They still haven’t shipped yet on the way here from china

From: Dave
To: Ocean Marketing
Dec 20, 2011 4:29 PM

So then delivery to customer doors by December 24th is no longer likely correct? Do you have an estimated date of when units will arrive in California? Thanks.

From: Ocean Marketing
To: Dave
Dec 20, 2011 5:11 PM

They are in the USA now in customs so its wither before or after Christmas.

From: Dave
To: Ocean Marketing
Dec 26, 2011, at 9:47 AM

I noticed the updated info on the webpage, and I don’t understand why there is absolutely no benefit given to those like me who have already ordered, and paid their money. You’ve had my money interest free for nearly two months, yet now ANY new order will get $10 off….meaning I should just cancel my order for 2 controllers, get my money back, then re-order.

My other questions is regarding item compatibility. Ocean Marketing seems to be involved with the Xtendplay controller holder, so I was wondering if the Avenger N-Controller can be used in conjunction with the Xtendplay (for both Xbox and PS3)? Thanks

From: Ocean Marketing
To: Dave
Dec 26, 2011 10:14 AM

Yes it can be used with xtend play if you remove the stand and no one is allowed to cancel and re order if we catch anyone doing it we will simply just cancel your order all together and you can buy it retail somewhere else.

Things happen in manufacturing if your unhappy you have 7 days from the day your item ships for a refund. You placed a pre order just like any software title the gets a date moved due to the tweaks and bugs not being worked out and GameStop or any other place holds your cash and im sure you don’t complain to activision or epic games so put on your big boy hat and wait it out like everyone else. The benefit is a token of our appreaciation for everyone no one is special including you or any first time buyer . Feel free to cancel we need the units were back ordered 11,000 units so your 2 will be gone fast. Maybe I’ll put them on eBay for 150.00 myself. Have a good day Dan.

[At this point Dave is (I think) understandably frustrated. His next email is sent to me as well as Kotaku and a few other news sites.]

-Gabe

From: Dave
To: Ocean Marketing
Dec 26, 2011 12:11 PM

Then cancel my order if you want to. I’m making a legitimate complaint about your poor communication and you’re the one stooping to childish levels, a patronizing attitude, and threats. Hell you can’t even get the spelling of my name right.

And Gamespot pre-orders…wow what a terrible comparison. Retailers take a couple dollars IF THAT for you to guarantee your game availability on the release date, whatever that is. That’s the understanding and that’s what you get. Plus, I don’t have to complain to Activision or Epic games about these issues because they’re usually not missing the street dates for their AAA titles.

Now let’s take YOUR situation:
1) You’ve promised a new product based off the design for an existing, working product
2) For the longest time, you’ve stated on your website (your failure to update regularly is another issue) the initial/special/limited batch of your new product by early December, obviously in time for the all-important holiday gift-giving season. I and thousands of other customers GIVE YOU OUR MONEY, INTEREST FREE on the promises you made online.
3) I reach out to you, on Dec 16 (AFTER you have FAILED TO MEET YOUR ADVERTISED DEADLINE AND FAILED TO COMMUNICATE TO ANYONE WHAT THE SITUATION IS) obviously a little frustrated but more curious about when I and other customers can expect the product we paid for.
4) Your reply to me is a cryptic “Dec 17” with absolutely no explanation of what that means. In the mean time you having been using funds from pre-paid customers to complete Research & Development, product redesigns, and manufacturing mis-steps.
5) You force me to follow-up with an email asking for clarification about what “Dec 17” means since the day has passed and I have yet to receive any new information about my order. Now you instead of ANSWERING MY QUESTION OF WHAT THE NEW DELIVERY DATE IS, you tell me the goods have yet to leave China… Why are you telling me this? I’m not your employee I’m your goddamn customer! TELL ME WHAT THAT MEANS IN TERMS OF MY TIME AND WHEN I CAN EXPECT MY PRODUCT I PAID FOR.
6) So great…I have to email you AGAIN trying to get a CLEAR answer from you whether a Dec 24th delivery date is possible and if not, what the new date is. Rinse & repeat: You give me an update of the delivery process (wow, thanks…you haven’t told me anything I don’t know about the order of international shipping procedures) but instead say “...so its wither before or after Christmas.” WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN? GIVE ME A DATE!? One that you’re actually going to follow, because I already see “late Nov to early Dec”; “Dec 17”; and now “CHRISTMAS” in my rear-view mirror.
7) So I guess what’s left for me to do but just wait? Oh but what’s this, you’ve updated your website…Ok at least you’ve clarified the dates more, I can expect my controller my latest first week of January. But now as a “token of our appreciation” to all your “loyal customers” (you mean like customers who put up cash for you hold an use?) you’re giving a $10 coupon. Let me get this straight…so you held my money interest free for 2 months to help bring this product to market, and now some new customer can place an order and pay $10 less than what I paid? You have financially penalized me in two ways for being a “LOYAL CUSTOMER.”

I’m SURE you’re getting tons of other inquiries and I’m sure you’re not enjoying the fact that your product is not out when you wanted it to be. I and everyone else understands that “sh*t happens,” but if you want us to be understanding of that, then you need to keep us in the loop. You’ve already set yourself up for failure by making explicit promises that aren’t even “likely” given that the design and manufacturing are still be refined. Then you make sure you’re going to fail by actually taking all of our money, Not just a little bit….THE WHOLE F*CKIN BEEFALO. Why wouldn’t we trust that you’re going to deliver our merchandise on time? Besides…it’s based off an existing product so how hard can it be? Well as your youtube video shows, making any consumer device is hard and requires many iterations and improvements. But I’m not going to apologize for holding your feet to the fire. You created these expectations by acting like the release was already a done deal and by hiding the fact that it was faaaar from it.

I want my two n-controllers. I 1) PAID FOR THEM 2) WAITED 3) DEALT WITH YOUR UNHELPFUL ASS. I also didn’t want to feel like my trust and loyalty as a customer was being abused and then actually punished in comparison to other customers. But I guess we can’t have it all… so right now I’ll settle for getting my merchandise and hopefully never having to deal with you again. I’ve spent enough time writing this email which I hope you gain some insight from. If you actually do want to screw me over by not fulfilling my order, then I assure you be hearing more from me or people representing me.

You show a surprising lack of business polish for someone who’s quite established, AND an lack of awareness of your customer base: Hardcore gamers. We’re a demanding, vocal customer but the flip side is we’re loyal and eager to spend. It’s lucky for you that I really want this product because it seems really deliver on making the gaming experience more effective and enjoyable. Hell, I want to combine the aventer-controller with the xtend play to make the ugliest, most comfortable, most awesome controller ever. And I’ll still buy the xtend, so let that be a testament to your products, the rise above your poor representation.

-DAVE with a V

p.s. You look really douchy be having one youtube video complaining about the noise of traffic next to your home and then another video showing off your obnoxiously loud rice rocket (which is nice, I gotta hand it ya).

p.p.s. Welcome to the internet, bitch. That’s how I roll.


From: Ocean Marketing
To: Dave
Dec 26, 2011 2:19 PM

LOL Thanks for the Free PR I know the Editor N Chief of Kotaku , IGN , Engadget I’ll be meeting them at CES .The noise complaint was for people high up on the food chain in a corporate world of real estate you have no clue about. Thanks for the Rice Rocket Compliment too love me some motorcycle . Send that over to Engadget you look like a complete moron swearing and sending your customer service complaints to a magazine as if they will post it or even pay attention do you think you’re the first or the last what are they going to do demand us to tell you were your shipment is or ask for a refund on your behalf … Really ... Welcome to the Internet ? Son Im 38 I wwebsite as on the internet when you were a sperm in your daddys balls and before it was the internet, thanks for the welcome to message wurd up. Grow up you look like a complete child bro. I Don’t have my controller so im gonna cry to the world … Really ?? Hey take that free time and do something more productive. All you had to do was check the like everyone else , people have inquired but you’re the douchiest of them all J

To all our pre-order customers looking for information on the status of their orders after a busy couple of months The PS3 Avengers are on their way from our Manufacturing plant overseas. We are aware that everyone is anticipating having their Avengers under their Christmas Tree and were doing our best to get these orders shipped out as fast as possible. We appreciate you as loyal customers and for supporting our company. Customers will start receiving their products this week before Christmas and After Christmas and into the New Year. As a token of our appreciation we are offering all our pre-order customers and new customers 10$ off your next order with us just enter Avenger1001 at Checkout. Thank you and Happy Holidays!

Oh and FYI When a street date gets pushed by a publisher on a video game you pre ordered do you cry to them too ?

You just got told bitch … welcome to the real internet check kotaku in 2 weeks when they are reviewing free PS3 Avengers we send them as well as G4 and all the other majors hell yeah , don’t forget to check Amazon, gamestop.com, play n trade , Myers , Frys and a ton of other local stores coming your way you think you speak for billions son your just a kid you speak for yourself no one cares what you think that’s why were growing and moving 20-50 thousand controllers a month. We do value our customers but sometimes we get children like you we just have to put you in the corner with your im stupid hat on. See you at CES , E3 , Pax East ….? Oh wait you have to ask mom and pa dukes your not an industry professional and you have no money on snap you just got told.

[The Pax East comment gets my attention and I decide to engage. I tend to have a calming effect on these sorts of arguments.]

-Gabe

From: Mike Krahulik
To: Dave, Ocean Marketing
Dec 26, 2011 at 8:45 PM

Holy shit this is unbelievable. Dave, if this guy has a booth at Pax east we will cancel it.

From: Dave
To: Mike Krahulik
Dec 26, 2011 at 8:53 PM

Hey thanks Mike. It’s truly a shame because I think this device is great for gamers with disabilities and problems. I think of Child’s Play and if anyone’s gonna need greater accessibility when using complicated gamepads…it’s sick kids! Shit man, I’m really gonna feel bad if I think that sick children may somewhere down the line have fewer avenger controllers because I got into a pissing match with a sad old man. Please don’t cancel their booth on my account. As much as I hate this asshole, I still WANT his product and think it should be out there. GAH, I wish I was in a position to make a competing product to really stick it to guy.

From: Ocean Marketing
To: Mike Krahulik
Dec 26, 2011 at 8:54 PM

Hey Mikey,

We’re not renting a booth at pax east this year , bigger and better shows to be at we got nothing from the show . Oh so you know this guy has sold over 500 thousand dollars of product in Dec and is my main distribution arm landing us in GameStop , fry’s , Myers , Best buy , Activision , MLG , play N trade and a lot more . Were in 6 countries and you’re not going to take my money for a booth that’s a crock I can guarantee I’ll get a booth if I want one money buys a lot and connections go even further. He’s a native Bostonian from Little Italy . Who are you again ?

[Oh Teh Noes!]

-Gabe

From: Mike Krahulik
To: Ocean Marketing
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:08 PM

I am mike krahulik, Pax is my show. Feel free to google me=) I can promise you that you will never have space at any future Pax event.

From: Ocean Marketing
To: Mike Krahulik
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:33 PM

OK Mike whatever you say lol , are you sure hour not in Boston I spoke to the person who ran the show in Boston last year. If you let some little kid influence you over a pre order then we don’t want to be a your show ,Ill be on the floor anyway so come find me , I’m born and raised in Boston I know the people who run the city inside and out watch the way you talk to people you never know who they know it’s a small industry and everyone knows everyone. Your acting like a douchbag not that it matters pax east pax west , e3 , CES , Gamer Con , SSXW ,Comic Con, Germany I’m all over the place. If we want to be there we will be there with industry badges or with a booth you think I can’t team up with turtle beach , Callibur or Koy Christmas , I can’t get Kevin Kelly to pull some strings or G4 , Paul Eibler Ex CEO of take 2 , Rich Larocco Konami , Cliff Blizinski Epic who were working with on a gears version , Activision who were working with on a MW3 and Spider man Bundle , The Convention Center Owners themselves , Mayor of Boston come on Bud you run a show that’s all you do and lease a center in Cities you have no pull in its all about who you know not what you do. I’ll see space where ever I want , with who I want when I want and where I want so many ways around you and so many connections in this industry its silly. Anyway , I have no issue with you Sean Buckley Engadget, Scott Lowe IGN and the list goes on and on. Little kids unhappy with a PRE ORDER starting trouble and you email that to us , he’s a customer unless you’re his boyfriend then you should side with the company not the customer. Be Careful

From: Mike Krahulik
To: Ocean Marketing
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:40 PM

I do run Pax, but I also run a website called penny arcade. It’s kinda popular.

From: Ocean Marketing
To: Mike Krahulik
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:41 PM

Love penny Arcade !!

From: Mike Krahulik
To: Ocean Marketing
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:42 PM

I’m glad you like it! You will be on it tomorrow:)

From: Ocean Marketing
To: Mike Krahulik
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM

Great !! Love PR

From: Ocean Marketing
To: Mike Krahulik
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM

Mike I’m not trying to fight with you I’m really not , you should give me the benefit of the doubt before judging over one person’s bitching . Did I feed into his emails a little bit too much yeah ok . But it’s one person dude for real. No disrespect intended for you , My name is good in this industry and I know a lot of people. I’ll be at CES are you going ?

From: Mike Krahulik
To: Ocean Marketing
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:47 PM

Please remove me from this mailing list

From: Ocean Marketing
To: Mike Krahulik
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:57 PM

Your spamming me you’re not on a mailing list you idiot ! You sent me an email remember . Make sure you stir up a lot of controversy about us the more the better we needed some drama gets good blood flow going about the new product launch . Your sites amateur at best my son could put together a better site than yours and you run PAX ?? Wow , Ill put my marketing team on a smear campaign of you and your site and your emails , I have about 125 dedicated people to run PR , Blogs , Articles , Videos you have no clue who I am . Thanks again

I can’t wait for the Penny Arcade smear campaign!

[Oh and I’ll just leave this here:

-Gabe out

info@avengercontroller.com
Ocean Marketing Paul Christoforo on Twitter - @OceanMarketting
800-492-5455 ]
Dude went off the dome and lost his mind. What outstanding dumbfuckery.
 
Apr 16, 2009
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Think again. Ocean Marketing or "Marketting" seems like one awesome company to purchase from.


I got an incredible email today from a Penny Arcade reader. Dave shared with me an email chain between him and Ocean Marketing (the folks behind the Avenger controller) Trust me when I tell you that this is one wild ride. I’m serious, Mr. Toad would look at this ride and just give a slow clap while shaking his head. I have tried to arrange this as best I can in chronological order. I’ve also removed email addresses and other private information. So let’s just jump right in, here is Dave’s first mail to Ocean Marketing:
Penny Arcade article

"Your sites amateur at best my son could put together a better site than yours and you run PAX ?? Wow , Ill put my marketing team on a smear campaign of you and your site and your emails .."


"Just was hanging with Tony Hawk"
 

Jive Turkey

Unconfirmed Member
Mar 10, 2005
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#20
Paul fom Ocean Marketing said:
Yes it can be used with xtend play if you remove the stand and no one is allowed to cancel and re order if we catch anyone doing it we will simply just cancel your order all together and you can buy it retail somewhere else.

Things happen in manufacturing if your unhappy you have 7 days from the day your item ships for a refund. You placed a pre order just like any software title the gets a date moved due to the tweaks and bugs not being worked out and GameStop or any other place holds your cash and im sure you don’t complain to activision or epic games so put on your big boy hat and wait it out like everyone else. The benefit is a token of our appreaciation for everyone no one is special including you or any first time buyer . Feel free to cancel we need the units were back ordered 11,000 units so your 2 will be gone fast. Maybe I’ll put them on eBay for 150.00 myself. Have a good day Dan.
Oh yeah. Keep it pofessional. Keep it classy.

Your. You're. It's difficult to take either side seriously when they insist on writing like an eight year old.
It's far worse when one of them is a public representative of a company.
 
Mar 21, 2011
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Wow, reading further into it, Dave (WITH A V!) isn't helping his own case much, bringing personal insults into it:

p.s. You look really douchy be having one youtube video complaining about the noise of traffic next to your home and then another video showing off your obnoxiously loud rice rocket (which is nice, I gotta hand it ya).

p.p.s. Welcome to the internet, bitch. That’s how I roll.
I also couldn't help but giggle at this

AND an lack of awareness of your customer base: Hardcore gamers.
I'm a hardcore gamer! You have meddled with the primal forces of nature!
 
Apr 23, 2007
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#24
I cannot possibly fathom how people can treat their clients like this. I got pissed at one of my customers once, but that's because he basically told me I was nothing because I didn't have a contract with the Pentagon.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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Hmm... retarded or not, they're going to get publicity of this. I had to google avenger controller to see what it was. I imagine plenty will do the same. Why get a booth at PAX when you can just get front page on their website?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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#30
Hmm... retarded or not, they're going to get publicity of this. I had to google avenger controller to see what it was. I imagine plenty will do the same. Why get a booth at PAX when you can just get front page on their website?
True but the publicity is also about them not having a product to sell, so that issue may stick around longer than it actually remains true.

I don't understand what I'm even looking at.
Yeah, TBH it seems like the marketing department kinda fits the design of the device.
 
Mar 21, 2011
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#32
Honestly, everyone in this exchange comes across poorly. PR man for being fucking terrible at PR, Dave for losing his shit, and Gabe for appealing to his own authority. Really now, children!
 
Jun 7, 2004
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#35
True but the publicity is also about them not having a product to sell, so that issue may stick around longer than it actually remains true.
If I wanted that product, I don't think I'd hold off from buying it just because the company has a spectacular world class douchebag of a marketer/PR guy.

That said, I get the feeling that the guy is probably either buddies with the owner/founder or is a relative - his low skill at his job as well as his attitude of invincibility seems to indicate the effects of nepotism.
 
Apr 26, 2011
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#36
It's far worse when one of them is a public representative of a company.
Oh absolutely. Make no mistake, the Ocean rep is not only one hundred percent in the wrong, he's also a world-class jackhole.

You know what? I just read it a little closer, and I think Dave's only problem is his letter where he just loses it. He already knows this guy is a mental midget. Antagonizing him with threats and profanity will only egg him on. Should have just written PA right off the bat.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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#38
Honestly, everyone in this exchange comes across poorly. PR man for being fucking terrible at PR, Dave for losing his shit, and Gabe for appealing to his own authority. Really now, children!
Gabe already has a reputation for rash statements, so rather than reflecting on him it's more like Exhibit W. Plus he did poke fun at himself:

The Pax East comment gets my attention and I decide to engage. I tend to have a calming effect on these sorts of arguments.

-Gabe

From: Mike Krahulik
To: Dave, Ocean Marketing
Dec 26, 2011 at 8:45 PM

Holy shit this is unbelievable. Dave, if this guy has a booth at Pax east we will cancel it.
 
Oct 30, 2007
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#39
Some people just don't have the brain to act like a proper business should.


I also like the complete 180 here.

Mike I’m not trying to fight with you I’m really not , you should give me the benefit of the doubt before judging over one person’s bitching . Did I feed into his emails a little bit too much yeah ok . But it’s one person dude for real. No disrespect intended for you , My name is good in this industry and I know a lot of people. I’ll be at CES are you going ?
From "I'm da fucking king!" to "Oh it's all good, we cool, right? See you at CES!"
 
May 31, 2007
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I've been looking at a picture of their product for a bit now and I can't figure it out. I'm sure I could look for a video explanation somewhere, but that's cheating!
 
Jan 12, 2007
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#41
Hmm... retarded or not, they're going to get publicity of this. I had to google avenger controller to see what it was. I imagine plenty will do the same. Why get a booth at PAX when you can just get front page on their website?
I'd like to imagine people who discover their product due to this mess aren't going to exactly be their future customers.

Anyway, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read, especially from a 40-year old grown ass man.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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#42
If I wanted that product, I don't think I'd hold off from buying it just because the company has a spectacular world class douchebag of a marketer/PR guy.

That said, I get the feeling that the guy is probably either buddies with the owner/founder or is a relative - his low skill at his job as well as his attitude of invincibility seems to indicate the effects of nepotism.
Nah, but you might if you knew they were going to take your money and then miss several consecutive release dates. Also since they are backordered by several months there's not much reason to buy until some positive user testimony starts showing up, which means the PR guy created more work for himself in the next couple months.
 

Jive Turkey

Unconfirmed Member
Mar 10, 2005
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#43
You know what? I just read it a little closer, and I think Dave's only problem is his letter where he just loses it. He already knows this guy is a mental midget. Antagonizing him with threats and profanity will only egg him on. Should have just written PA right off the bat.
Yep. Fire off an email to PA with the correspondence transcripts and firmly yet politely demand a refund.

Oh and back to the your/you're thing:

Paul from Ocean Marketing said:
Your spamming me you’re not on a mailing list you idiot !
Seriously...How the fuck does this guy have a job writing anything?
 

Ela Hadrun

Probably plays more games than you
Feb 10, 2008
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#44
If I wanted that product, I don't think I'd hold off from buying it just because the company has a spectacular world class douchebag of a marketer/PR guy.

That said, I get the feeling that the guy is probably either buddies with the owner/founder or is a relative - his low skill at his job as well as his attitude of invincibility seems to indicate the effects of nepotism.
Yeah, it has the distinct smell of having uncovered the one-man-project of some capable person's drunk nephew.

The website is really astounding. All little social media icons lining the margins. Looks like a guy who is trying to hide that he has a one-man-show going, gets contracts from his "cool uncle," then tries to get a real estate office or two to believe that he has an SEO algorithm.
 
Oct 30, 2007
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#46
Oh man, I didn't read that last bit.

Ill put my marketing team on a smear campaign of you and your site and your emails , I have about 125 dedicated people to run PR , Blogs , Articles , Videos you have no clue who I am . Thanks again

I can’t wait for the Penny Arcade smear campaign!
LOL! What a fucking loser. Hmm, Penny Arcade or some chunk of plastic? I wonder who'll win?
 
Sep 22, 2006
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#47
I've been looking at a picture of their product for a bit now and I can't figure it out. I'm sure I could look for a video explanation somewhere, but that's cheating!
It like... snaps onto your exisiting controller. Makes it so you done need to use your thumb to press X, Y, and B on the controller. Pull the levers with other fingers to trigger them.

I guess it also extends the existing triggers.

Maybe some other shit.

Something like that.
 

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
Mar 26, 2007
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#49
Ocean guy strikes me as a person I would walk up to and punch in the face and he nor his people cannot do anything about it. Really hate people like that.

Until now. I've never even heard of this Avenger controller and I own a billion controllers, various name brand for multiple systems.
And thanks to that asshole, I'll make sure neither I nor anybody I know buys one. Thanks Paul! Free publicity but no customer!