This is pretty much the reason why I never won a single online match in T6 (when I could actually find a match in the first place). Kept getting matched up with players with THOUSANDS of matches worth of experience, the majority of them being wins. And this was mere months after it released, about only two in my case.
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"People don't buy fighting games for single player", but trophy data disagrees
- Thread starter Seraphis Cain
- Start date
Gai Murakumo
Member
Personally I rarely ever play online in fighting games, I usually get decimated because I am alright but not god level like some people are online. Plus not having lag or latency and being able to control the settings to exactly create what I want to play makes offline modes more appealing to me.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
There is no reason why beating up a big colorful character with your big colorful character shouldn't be fun in single player as well as multiplayer.
Is the idea that playing a CPU isn't in any way fun something that comes from Capcom games? In my experience they have the most boring and predictable AI, that really is just there to provide a punching dummy that moves.
At any rate, the advent of ghost / shadow CPU modes in fighting games is one of the more important innovations that is thankfully becoming more common. A wide variety of tweaked and randomized CPU opponents is a great thing. NetherRealm's development of the infinite living tower system is also fantastic and I'm glad to see they're expanding on the idea in Injustice 2 (the Multiverse mode).
Is the idea that playing a CPU isn't in any way fun something that comes from Capcom games? In my experience they have the most boring and predictable AI, that really is just there to provide a punching dummy that moves.
At any rate, the advent of ghost / shadow CPU modes in fighting games is one of the more important innovations that is thankfully becoming more common. A wide variety of tweaked and randomized CPU opponents is a great thing. NetherRealm's development of the infinite living tower system is also fantastic and I'm glad to see they're expanding on the idea in Injustice 2 (the Multiverse mode).
This was KOFXIV on day one.
While there is obviously value in single player content, anyone who doesn't engage in the multiplayer side of fghting game at all is still really missing out. That is in fact the reason people really into fighting games are so insistent about that, because they know only sticking to SP stuff means you're getting a kinda watered down version of the experience.
You also don't really have to practice all day, or be a super pro EVO player to have fun online.
If they listened to MK, they would've included at least multiple modes with ladders.
VF4 Evo is still one of the best packages out there, especially because if the Anniversary game included. Sucked seeing that it sold way less than vanilla 4.
Scully Scully Scoo
Member
i enjoy watching sf4/5 at tournament level because the high level play is a very intense chess match but no way in hell am i going to play online matches because i suck at the game. i havnt even purchased sf5 because there is virtually no story mode, i did however buy sf4 because it revitalized the genre from a gameplay perspective.
mortal kombat & injustice is where its at for me & if capcom want me to purchase their games than they need to implement a fleshed out story mode.
mortal kombat & injustice is where its at for me & if capcom want me to purchase their games than they need to implement a fleshed out story mode.
Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
If they listened to MK, they would've included at least multiple modes with ladders.
VF4 Evo is still one of the best packages out there, especially because if the Anniversary game included. Sucked seeing that it sold wau less than vanilla 4.
I wasn't a Virtua Fighter fan at all and I still bought Evo day one (or whatever qualified as "day one" back in those days). I did my part!
Hellshingu
Member
This. No amount of tutorials and help in game is going to prepare you when facing better people online. You can learn every nook and cranny of the game but if you can't execute it in a real life match it doesn't matter.
"Everyone has a plan 'til you get punched in the mouth."
This is why I support easier controls and mash light auto combos that end in supers if you have meter. It makes players that don't care about combo timing and inputs feel like they are doing something cool.
If they listened to MK, they would've included at least multiple modes with ladders.
VF4 Evo is still one of the best packages out there, especially because if the Anniversary game included. Sucked seeing that it sold wau less than vanilla 4.
Considering the push eSports push Capcom was going for , it would be more meaningful for SFV to have SP content that helps teach the player the game rather than dwelve into SFs "Deep" lore (lol).
LordOfLore
Banned
Was SFV's DLC one about that long? Already forgotten what happened in it aside from Juri driving a bike from Brazil to the UK.
Out of the top of my head KOF, MK and Tekken AI also have the issue of either being a pushover or straight up cheating. TTT2 ghost battles I remember being just "launch, damage, launch again when they rise up, rinse and repeat". And SNK Boss Syndrome is a real thing in SNK games. And MK AI seems to switch between punching bag and reading your inputs mode.
Doctrine Dark
Member
While I play fighting games competitively, I definitely prefer a hefty amount of single player content.
Only if you're talking specifically about characters. Injustices has an entire gear system that allows you to modify stats, moves, and looks of your characters. Tekken has lots of outfits and costume items. Street Fighter 5 lets you unlock stages, characters, and outfits through its fight money system. Guilty Gear has galleries of art, tons of colors, and a bunch of shit I don't even know exists because I'm not interested in it. SoulCalibur has its entire create a character system with its own set of unlocks.
I could go on and on.
Unless you're talking specifically about characters, and then I'd argue it's just a perception thing since we were paying more for fighters because we couldn't just buy a 20 dollar upgrade. We paid 60 bucks and had to buy it again, or had to deal with bugs because the game would never be updated and we'd just have to wait for a sequel, or we would get a vanilla version and never get the updated version.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Though something that probably should be pointed out: until recently online play in most fighting games was largely garbage. Yes, fighting games have had online play since the early 2000s, and unless you lived in Japan or played somebody nextdoor, the input delay netcode ruined the responsive, enjoyable feeling of playing offline.
Competitive-only players may have put up with it and forced it to work because they only play against human opponents, but it still sucked. There's more than a decade of history that has trained the average person to dislike playing these games online - the games were slow, laggy, unresponsive, and couldn't be played with the same timing as offline practice.
Yeah, I do recall the various nuances, especially input reading in older MK games and SNK bosses. Though as far as TTT2 ghosts go, I found once you began playing higher ranked ghosts they were very good at defense.
Yet somehow when I play the CPU in a lot of Capcom games, it just feels as if it isn't programmed to do most of what real players might do. One exception is MVC3 which seems more unpredictable to me.
Competitive-only players may have put up with it and forced it to work because they only play against human opponents, but it still sucked. There's more than a decade of history that has trained the average person to dislike playing these games online - the games were slow, laggy, unresponsive, and couldn't be played with the same timing as offline practice.
Yeah, I do recall the various nuances, especially input reading in older MK games and SNK bosses. Though as far as TTT2 ghosts go, I found once you began playing higher ranked ghosts they were very good at defense.
Yet somehow when I play the CPU in a lot of Capcom games, it just feels as if it isn't programmed to do most of what real players might do. One exception is MVC3 which seems more unpredictable to me.
lucebuce12
Member
And Zangief breaking a sword with his chest muscles.
I think it was around 3-4 hours? I could be misremembering.
I'm pretty sure if you would ask anyone with the possible exception of Capcom, they would tell you that single player is probably the single most important thing in a fighting game.
While I think GG Xrd took it too far by, you know, making the story mode non-interactive, they've always maintained with us that a majority of the customers play the game for the single player story mode.
We didn't have the resources to do a really involved single player mode for Skullgirls, but if we ever do a sequel or another fighting game, there will be a lot more focus on single player.
While I think GG Xrd took it too far by, you know, making the story mode non-interactive, they've always maintained with us that a majority of the customers play the game for the single player story mode.
We didn't have the resources to do a really involved single player mode for Skullgirls, but if we ever do a sequel or another fighting game, there will be a lot more focus on single player.
The problem I think is the way Capcom is chasing it is in the extremely half-assed way that won't get those kinds of people to stick around with the game. Everything I'm seeing about MVCI so far is nothing I want to see and is the kind of things that would drive me away to "catch" the so-called "casual." MVCI's competition is fierce this year with Tekken 7 finally releasing on consoles/PC and Rev2 coming as a free update for Revelator.
The average person will never ever care about sticking with the game longer than a month or so, and the people who don't care about improving themselves will play one game online, get destroyed and go "fuck this." No amount of easy control input or whatever will fix this. I know they've said that stuff isn't final in regards to stuff like down-down-punch for DPs, but factor in SFV's general.. mehness. (I was super excited and even booted it back up for Juri and I just don't enjoy the game at all.)
The best fighter series with an appreciation for casual players is easily Tekken, and Namco's always been really good at this with repeatable single-player content. Just look at how many people have fondness for the Weapon Master mode from SCII. Hell, I enjoy playing fighting games competitively (even if I started to fall off) and Tekken's Ghost Battle system they started in 5 is amazing.
The average person will never ever care about sticking with the game longer than a month or so, and the people who don't care about improving themselves will play one game online, get destroyed and go "fuck this." No amount of easy control input or whatever will fix this. I know they've said that stuff isn't final in regards to stuff like down-down-punch for DPs, but factor in SFV's general.. mehness. (I was super excited and even booted it back up for Juri and I just don't enjoy the game at all.)
The best fighter series with an appreciation for casual players is easily Tekken, and Namco's always been really good at this with repeatable single-player content. Just look at how many people have fondness for the Weapon Master mode from SCII. Hell, I enjoy playing fighting games competitively (even if I started to fall off) and Tekken's Ghost Battle system they started in 5 is amazing.
Are they making money from all these tournaments? sponsors maybe?
Wonder what kind of viewing audience there is for this.
Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
That still happens today, though to a lesser degree.
(Sega can go to hell for never giving me Dengeki Bunko Fighting Climax Ignition in the West. ;_
The Rev2 update is $20, isn't it?
HelloNewman
Member
The reason I quit playing Street Fighter 5 is because there's nothing to do but play online. I like playing online but sometimes I wanna use characters I don't know or a low tier character without getting punched into the atmosphere.
I used to love playing fighting games in arcades but hated it when someone would join in to fight me, haha.
LordOfLore
Banned
Man, that doesn't really inspire hope...
Clearly we need a SF vs MK game where NRS do all the single player content and Capcom all the gameplay.
From all these discussions on single player fighting game stuff I've come to learn that there's a sizeable portion of people that either hate or are afraid of playing other people. I've read a lot of people talking about how demoralizing losing online games can be and they don't understand why anyone would put themselves through that. They find playing online really stressful for some reason.
So I think there's probably no convincing a certain portion of players to play online just for the fun of it and not to sweat losing too much. Especially because I've seen this false dichotomy bandied around in these kinds of threads where you're either a person who plays arcade mode or someone trying to win EVO. Some people believe that everyone who plays online has the goal of being a pro which is ridiculous.
I also only buy fighting games for the SP. If the game has a good singleplayer like soul calibur and mortal kombat, i'll buy it; if not i'll just not waste money. I don't have the patience to learn the intricacies of this game to play online, beating the AI is good enough for me.
60EffPeeEss
Member
I always do one run of arcade mode, then its straight into training for local or online play.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
I'm one of those kind of gamers. I play fighting games a lot but most of the time by myself or multiplayer locally. I hardly ever go online because I hate latency and like having perfect control of my character offline. I also love story mode in fighting games and it's why I really despise Soul Calibur 5. SC series had some of the best story mode content out there until Namco decided to fuck up and ruin the franchise with the shit story mode in SC5. Devs need to understand that most fighting game fans still love story mode or SP content.
Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
This is me, honestly. I remember being in a really heated MvC3U match with someone from GAF and getting to the point where my heart was racing so fast and my hands shaking so hard I could barely hold the controller. How I still won in spite of that I'll never know.
But yeah, I'm one of those people who gets demoralized very, very easily. It's like I have an "enjoyment meter" when playing online, and winning makes it go up +1, while losing makes it go down -10. I know that's a pretty shitty way to feel, but I honestly can't help it. =/
This is blatantly wrong. Im a casual player so i dont understand the full neuance of what is happening, but its pretty clear most campaigns dont really teach you more then button mashing.
If games had better tutorials/practice modes much of this would be averted. For instance when was the last time a 2D fighter had a turn based practice mode where each move was in slow motion and players got to learn the tactics/reads without having to do it at speed or with an execution barrier?
How many games have rythm based minigames that allow you to muscle memorise specific combinations/moves in real time?
If the player needs to learn what they need to know to be successful at a game outside of the game, then that game might need some extra features.
Professor Beef
Banned
I *have* to play single-player because icons and titles for multiplayer are locked behind single-player modes.
Hellshingu
Member
You can disagree with me if you want but I've been around fighting games for years and no tutorial will ever cover how a game evolves and tech is discovered in a games lifespan. These games are figured out by the community and are shared through forums, locals, and now youtube videos and twitter.
Using SF4 as an example and crouch tech, that game could not have taught you about crouch tech in a tutorial and that was a essential tool in higher level play. That was discovered after the game came out by the community. Sure you could win without it but you would be at a pretty big disadvantage versus better players who implemented it in their game.
VF4E is the closest any game has gotten to achieving this goal IMO.
I understand that to a degree. The competitive aspect of fighting games makes them more enjoyable than any other genre for me. The best feeling in gaming is being on the verge of losing a match and conditioning your opponent to do the one thing that will give you the opportunity for a huge comeback.
However, losing in fighting games gets many angrier than playing any other game and playing Ranked is actually mentally exhausting. It's not the type of game where I can set aside several hours to play because after an hour or so my brain has hit its limit and I know that if I continue playing I'm going to start losing. I can't​ even drink a few beers and play fighting games, something I'll do with any other genre, because I'll lose my edge.
So naturally if I dedicate myself to a fighting game for several months I'll tend to pick a low stress game next like a open world, grindy RPG where progress is only gated by time spent playing.
Er yeah, you're right on that.
Anyway, back to MVCI for a bit. The messaging is so mixed on that.
This is one of the worst tweets I've ever seen after it came out that the DD+P motions were real. https://twitter.com/diamonon/status/857328841626222593
Apparently Ryu still has his DP motion, but Morrigan's DP motion is DD+P despite being the same move? The reason why the DP motion is so good is it's consistent across characters that have moves that behave like Ryu's dragon punch.
Every time I see this I get sad, because fighting games are only getting fewer and fewer single player modesAlpha 3 is, in my opinion, still the undisputed king of single player content in a fighting game. Just look at the main menu of the PSP version:
And there's even more hiding behind some of those modes! A remastered console port of SFA3 PSP is pretty much my dream fighting game.
EDIT: That's not the PSP version, shit. Give me a minute. Might have to take a screenshot myself.
EDIT2: Shit, you can't take screenshots of PSP games on Vita. Oh well. Just imagine that screen but with even more stuff.
Even Neterrealm has nothing compared to SFA3, and Tekken 7 has cut several single player modes too.
wish we'd get back to SFA 3 levels of 1p modes...
fredrancour
Member
Yep some people aren't capable of having no ego about performance in competitive multi-player, especially when it's 1v1. I was one of them throughout childhood and high school.
This all makes sense until you read the 100th post about how XYZ poster doesn't want to:
Learn Frame Data
Sit in Practice Mode
Deal with OP Character
Learn how to fight XYZ strategy
What I see is people complaining that they don't want to put in the work of learning a fighting game, period. What you've requested might not exist, but lots of fighters out now have amazing tutorials that don't get played because people just want to be good at fighting games without putting in the work. That's why, imo, it's more important to make it feel gratifying to play rather than put resources into tutorials that aren't going to benefit many players.
I'd rather capture tons of casual players so that my games get supported rather than put effort into tutorials that most people won't care about. Like King Awesome said, the perception is that you are either a casual or a pro, and those casuals think the only way you can take a game seriously is by being the next EVO champ, and so they avoid every mode that has anything to do with getting better.
I think more games in general should have options for local online multiplayer (like in your city), to minimize running into insane skill level players. Then expand voice chat so you can maybe make some irl friends. You know, talk about stuff happening in your city locally and such.
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