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Persona 5 Social-Link/Confidant discussion |OT| Laughing Banana is Makoto's husbando
- Thread starter Cornbread78
- Start date
Pretty much how I see it all of this (Ryuji and Ann should be a thing, and Makoto interest in Joker). Also, Yes; I can't shake the little sister from Futaba; only Oreimo fans dates Futaba
ShadowSoldier89
Member
you people creating incest where none exist are fucking weirdPretty much how I see it all of this (Ryuji and Ann should be a thing, and Makoto interest in Joker). Also, Yes; I can't shake the little sister from Futaba; only Oreimo fans dates Futaba
Shadic7700
Member
Hating on Futaba fans is rude and I disagree with you. If you want to waifu shame someone do it to Makoto fans! They are so numerous you'll get a bigger reaction. The only reason I chose to respond is because Futaba deserves love not disrespect just because here Step-dad takes care of a guy you think of as his "son".Pretty much how I see it all of this (Ryuji and Ann should be a thing, and Makoto interest in Joker). Also, only Oreimo fans dates Futaba
I think Futaba romance needs a gap year or so and she's more grown up/independent when you come back. I like Futaba as a character a lot. I just think she needs to grow out of seeing you as her special item and she both does and more so doesn't in her link.
I think Ann/Ryuji can make sense and that Ann/MC loveline is fairly opaque (but so can my ship be in the s links, so I'm sympathetic. Moreover, dating Ann seems to confirm she is who I wanted her to be from other people's telling of it). I hope in the future that they do do side romances again. Just...I feel awkward stepping on people's ship and I know that, say, Yosuke/Chie would've pissed a lot of people off (not me but...). So would've Kanji/Naoto for a variety of reasons, some of them ship related, some of them Kanji's sexuality related.
It'd be less awkward in a game where you can't date the girl being shipped with another character.
I think Makoto/MC makes the most sense of any of the couples in the game.
I think Haru's romance works perfectly fine, I just don't feel her or her link much, personally, is all. She is a darkhorse candidate, in that Haru comes late, has a strong gate to doing her link, and has little involvement with the MC in the main story.
I think most of the adult relationships don't make much sense on a romantic level, but you can make them work and the adult women have their own hooks. Personally, I think Tae is well done and I would've enjoyed romancing her as an adult character with a link that was more romantically colored in places.
Kawakami probably pushes the romantic angle the hardest, but that is also the one I feel you ought to refuse. The other women...it is not so squicky that they date you as a teen. Kawakami is your teacher, though, and dating her conflicts the arc of her narrative imo, and I think the game knows that.
Hifumi's relationship works.
I think Ann/Ryuji can make sense and that Ann/MC loveline is fairly opaque (but so can my ship be in the s links, so I'm sympathetic. Moreover, dating Ann seems to confirm she is who I wanted her to be from other people's telling of it). I hope in the future that they do do side romances again. Just...I feel awkward stepping on people's ship and I know that, say, Yosuke/Chie would've pissed a lot of people off (not me but...). So would've Kanji/Naoto for a variety of reasons, some of them ship related, some of them Kanji's sexuality related.
It'd be less awkward in a game where you can't date the girl being shipped with another character.
I think Makoto/MC makes the most sense of any of the couples in the game.
I think Haru's romance works perfectly fine, I just don't feel her or her link much, personally, is all. She is a darkhorse candidate, in that Haru comes late, has a strong gate to doing her link, and has little involvement with the MC in the main story.
I think most of the adult relationships don't make much sense on a romantic level, but you can make them work and the adult women have their own hooks. Personally, I think Tae is well done and I would've enjoyed romancing her as an adult character with a link that was more romantically colored in places.
Kawakami probably pushes the romantic angle the hardest, but that is also the one I feel you ought to refuse. The other women...it is not so squicky that they date you as a teen. Kawakami is your teacher, though, and dating her conflicts the arc of her narrative imo, and I think the game knows that.
Hifumi's relationship works.
Shadic7700
Member
That makes sense I'm just tired of people shouting incest any time Futaba is even mentioned
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I've been thinking about it, and I believe Mishima might be the single most tone-deaf piece of writing in the entire game - worse than Ann, and certainly worse than Kawakami.
Our introduction to him is a repeat victim of severe physical and psychological abuse by his teacher. He has been ground into the dirt and traumatized by shitty adults. He is everything that the Phantom Thieves are fighting for, and if it weren't for them, he would probably have followed Shiho off the roof.
And yet the entire game, he is just a constant punchline. You are almost always given the choice to insult and belittle him, and to swat down his every attempt to find value in his life. The game even reinforces this by having other characters join in on kicking him in the stomach, and at times will actually not give you a non-derogatory dialogue choice.
It's easy to ignore this because he's weird, ominous as hell early on, and "bitter nerd" is one of the most aggravating personality types out there, but he is a victim through and through, and the game's treatment of him clashes spectacularly with the characterization and themes.
Our introduction to him is a repeat victim of severe physical and psychological abuse by his teacher. He has been ground into the dirt and traumatized by shitty adults. He is everything that the Phantom Thieves are fighting for, and if it weren't for them, he would probably have followed Shiho off the roof.
And yet the entire game, he is just a constant punchline. You are almost always given the choice to insult and belittle him, and to swat down his every attempt to find value in his life. The game even reinforces this by having other characters join in on kicking him in the stomach, and at times will actually not give you a non-derogatory dialogue choice.
It's easy to ignore this because he's weird, ominous as hell early on, and "bitter nerd" is one of the most aggravating personality types out there, but he is a victim through and through, and the game's treatment of him clashes spectacularly with the characterization and themes.
Yea, it's one thing to say it's weird because of the sisterly vibe, but calling it incest or conflating it with an anime that touches upon that is waaaaaaaaaaay too far.
Shadic7700
Member
It is weird that I'd always try to cheer him on and not get the option to do so and I'm left with him
and asking why you didn't even give me a choice!
going power hungry and egotistical
I like her link a lot as a link. I think she is a cute girl too. But I feel I did the right thing rejecting her (was already going to, but still...).
But she's in the structure of the game so...if you want to date her, go for it. I just think the structure of the game does not benefit her romance.
Hmmm...
I've known some people who were victims (guy I'm thinking of was a victim of bad mental health care treatment), but who also did have a really dark side that you wanted to talk them out of while also being understanding of where they were coming from (guy I'm thinking of was massively paranoid to the point he'd stir up shit and make his life a lot harder than it had to be). I felt like being with Mishima was being with a guy like this. I always tried to toe the line between calling him out and reaching out to him.
And then the fact that it didn't work too well with Mishima also reminded me of my own experience. I could talk the guy I'm talking about down fairly well at times and he'd see other people in a more charitable way, but he'd always come back to me and try and prove his delusions about conspiracies. Eventually it hit a breaking point and the guy was forcibly committed against his will and that was an awful experience. The hospital staff just laughed at some of his more colorful delusions.
Obviously, the Mishima case isn't that bad but I could really understand playing him on the knife's edge.
On the other hand, I never pushed him too hard so I guess I don't know just what a punching bag he can be.
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
What about eromanga-sensei ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ?Pretty much how I see it all of this (Ryuji and Ann should be a thing, and Makoto interest in Joker). Also, Yes; I can't shake the little sister from Futaba; only Oreimo fans dates Futaba
Personally I intended to date Futaba because I liked her design the most, but once I actually played the game I preferred not to. A relationship where one "can't be alright" without the other to that level can be troublesome. I know that first hand.
I ended up dating Makoto (as a lot of people apparently) simply because she reminded me a lot of myself when I was in highschool. I also had my eyes on Chihaya but by the time I picked up her support, Makoto's was already too high. Maybe for NG+
I ended up dating Makoto (as a lot of people apparently) simply because she reminded me a lot of myself when I was in highschool. I also had my eyes on Chihaya but by the time I picked up her support, Makoto's was already too high. Maybe for NG+
Marmaladefire
Member
I agree re: Futaba. Pure neediness and obession with your partner is not ideal in real life. In fact, it's a Very Bad Thing. But it's not incest and it's not like the game gives you any consquences or inconveniences born out of that dependency. Conflating the two is annoying, but realistically, it's the only way anyone but Makoto fans can push the second most canonically supported girl out of the way
Ultimadrago
Member
I agree re: Futaba. Pure neediness and obession with your partner is not ideal in real life. In fact, it's a Very Bad Thing. But it's not incest and it's not like the game gives you any consequences or inconveniences born out of that dependency. Conflating the two is annoying, but realistically, it's the only way anyone but Makoto fans can push the second most canonically supported girl out of the way
Right. It can still be annoying to see the insecurities go quite so far, but I'm not against people coming to conclusions on how the Futaba relationship might not work in their perspective (like MoonFrog's), even if I disagree with it.
On a side note since you brought up Makoto fans, I see posters online consider her fans a nuisance. I would almost say the same, but I was a Chie main in Persona 4 and...we were pretty bad about that. It's interesting to see how it plays from the outside of the storm this time!
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I can sympathize with that position. Maybe not to that extent, but in one form or another we've all known a Mishima or two.
The problems are that 1. the protagonist's shtick is that he can get through to just about anyone and 2 Joker never actually tries. It's either "Wow Mishima you are so cool and powerful and better than everyone!" enabling the negative behavior created by his abuse, or "lmao fuck off nerd".
The game doesn't walk a careful line. It goes all in on making him the buttmonkey barring the very end of his confidant story, and even circles back around at the end of the game to make him the pathetic goober that no one likes.
The only poignant moments I can remember across all the writing that went into him is that
he changes his own heart,
is the first one to lead the support for the PT in the finale.
Ultimadrago
Member
Hey no harsh feelings here! lol. It's just a contention brought up a lot (less jokingly), so it gets some heat at times.
Shadic7700
Member
Speaking of Futaba awesome figure coming out at the end of the year!
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-ne...paign=news&referrer=community_cr_twitter_news
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-ne...paign=news&referrer=community_cr_twitter_news
Ultimadrago
Member
Yeah, I just yesterday! I wouldn't mind a Futaba figure, but I'll wait and see if any other companies take a whirl at her. Have the Ann/Johanna figures been posted yet?
Draft, obviously with no Makoto yet
Bonus Morgana Nendoroid:
Her buff/support abilities have save me more than once of losing hrs of progress in-game, so she's awesome on my eyes
Hmmmm...I'll look at the link more closely next time. You may be right.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Come on drago, buy any and all Futaba... You know you want to
I'm actually really happy with how this one turned out anyway. Wish the other characters were getting figures in the casual outfits, as that's currently my preference for display. Except joker though, he needs his attire
Wonder if I will get screwed with Haru like I've been with Naoto all these years and never get a scale
Ultimadrago
Member
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Morgana Nendoroid is going to be preorder when possible!
Elaugaufein
Member
There's like 3 distinct things going on with S-Links / Confidants , 1) you're trying to make friends / allies / connections which means convincing people you're an asshole they never want to see again is a bad idea even if it means you're enabling them to some agree (particularly early in S-links) 2) You come to understand what their particular Arcana symbolizes and can channel it (hence the Persona stuff , you as a Wild Card take on the aspects of that Arcana), which is why encouragement is generally positive and 3) You try and help people with their own journey.
Admiral Woofington
Member
BRSxIgnition
Member
Don't tempt me!
The funny thing is that not once does she hit the space bar in the scene.
She could have typed lhgysaoilfnednvjlcdshgfvjewdsp;jcabshuoieyblsdf for all we know.
InfiniDragon
Member
Yo that Futaba figure is super cute. I kinda want one.
Elaugaufein
Member
Ann and Haru is also complicated for me. Ann has better dialogue options and rapport, whereas Haru is pretty bad in those respects. She seems to like anything and I just felt like a fly on the wall that she liked to have around and wanted to be happy with her. Haru, however, has a narrative that does some interesting things with her father, grandfather, and employees. Ann's story is extremely unfocused and doesn't pick up cleanly from act 1.
But...in Mitsuru's link your role in it all was very clear, whereas I really did not get why Haru sought me out and the main narrative didn't supply a reason. Also, I really feel they dealt with Haru's dad poorly. The emotional fallout after palace 5 just isn't there. And I get he was a controversial figure but...
I give the edge to Ann mostly because I like Ann better, but I also think the technical aspect of her social link is overlooked.
Haru's also has the distinction of being the only I disliked in this second list. I have mixed feelings about Ann's and I do think Makoto's fell short of its potential (which was potential to be number 1, on this list, at least
Time travelling. But I don't think Haru seeks you out , rather you're one of a very few people she sees as treating her as a person (as opposed to an object to be used for your own benefit) and the link develops from there , also there's what seems to be a shared interest.
She is hitting function keys a lot though so maybe she's using a white space sensitive coding language and has macros setup
. That or she's writing Perl.KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I don't think that really justifies bullying a kid who regularly got the shit beaten out of him by a shitty adult. It's totally against everything that the Thieves stand for, and the theme of the game.
I guess the thing with Haru and me also is I hated answering her questions about who to trust and what to do. And I felt like I kind of talked her into being wildly distrustful or that I got her to open up to being wildly distrustful, when I didn't even know these people she was talking about. I felt like I was the sounding board she was looking to for help and I couldn't do anything for her nor say anything useful. I felt just there, that she liked me for some reason, wanted me to like her for some reason, and we weren't having real conversations.
I'm glad the other guy was actually trustworthy, but it just reinforces my discomfort at talking her through this stuff. It is not like she wasn't asking for my input and advice: she explicitly was, however important or not that was to her in the end.
The whole "I'm into tea, but I'm getting into coffee. Don't you like coffee too?" rang really strange to me. It is like she planned it because I liked coffee in part and she was adjusting herself to me. At the same time, she had a narrative reason--her grandfather. But I don't see why she couldn't pursue her own interests and still follow in his footsteps? I take it the narrative reason is the actual reason, but it is a bit awkward to me and helps create this whole cloud of "who is she?" about her, for me.
Both of these and her reactions to what you say sort of feed into this dehumanized relationship with her, imo. I feel like she's already reached a conclusion and is playing it out with me or that she has decided to have a positive reaction to me and wants me to have one of her. Throw in things like sneaking me dung coffee or the movie scene, and I just don't feel it is an honest relationship.
I think doing a flip with father/grandfather from Mitsuru could have been promising, but I feel the father and what happens to him is dealt with in an incredibly flat-footed way, (And that again leaves me in a weird way wrt Haru) and the barista story is a mix of flat-footed and creepy to me.
And I think I am latching onto a real aspect of Haru, from what even positive takes on her present. IDK. I get that I'm at least being somewhat unfair, and I'll try and see a more complete Haru on a future playthrough but...that's where I stand with Haru atm. She's just sort of there for the most part...and when I do look at her or think about her, I'm not a fan.
And I get that that's a weird opinion in this thread and I don't feel entirely comfortable with that. It makes me feel quite unreasonable when I think usually I am pretty reasonable.
People have told me what I am missing in well thought-out posts upthread. I appreciate those.
Maybe my views will moderate on a further playthrough.
He, didn't expect people to read my post, being as long as it was. Thanks!
I have like 0 free time right now, but I'm slowly going through a second playthrough and there definitely is stuff that you only catch by them. The game is really heavy handed at times and, because of it, we are not used (at times at least) to pay attention.
Your opinion could be perfectly valid though. Your Dialogue options don't really change the outcome in Confidants. It's just 1-2 lines that are changed. So if you chose a different option than me I can definitely see that you feel she makes an effort to like you. The game is more about creating an illusion of choice than allowing the player to actually make meaningful choices most of the time.
I have like 0 free time right now, but I'm slowly going through a second playthrough and there definitely is stuff that you only catch by them. The game is really heavy handed at times and, because of it, we are not used (at times at least) to pay attention.
Your opinion could be perfectly valid though. Your Dialogue options don't really change the outcome in Confidants. It's just 1-2 lines that are changed. So if you chose a different option than me I can definitely see that you feel she makes an effort to like you. The game is more about creating an illusion of choice than allowing the player to actually make meaningful choices most of the time.
chrominance
Member
For me, I feel like your role in that relationship isn't necessarily to help Haru with her problems or advise her on the best course of action. The point is that she wanted someone who would listen to her without judgement, someone who wasn't involved with all the company shit she had to deal with and wouldn't try to manipulate her. Anything you said on top of that, I think, was just gravy. I don't think Haru was ever seriously soliciting your advice because I think everyone realizes very quickly that you're not going to have any reasonable intelligence on what Haru should do about the company. I feel like Haru even says this explicitly at one point but it's been a while so I don't remember clearly.
Elaugaufein
Member
Within Social Links Choices are meaningful in that wrong responses cost you Time (a limited resource), but the Links always end up at the same place (beyond Romantic / Platonic where necessary, but even that only makes small alterations to the meat of the interactions beyond the handful of explicit romantic date locations post Rank 10).
The only real exception is Ai in P4 who has 2 different routes if you become Romantic early but that entire route is just an elaborate trap for an overeager player fundamentally and still ends in pretty much the same place as the normal Platonic route would.
I didn't get it either beyond maybe it's supposed to be an ultimately positive take on This Loser is You. Mishima ultimately helps himself and really does have a positive impact both in his S-Link arc and the endinf of the story (if you max his S-Link).
That's more or less what I meant, but expanded. Yep. Fucking up costs you time, but your decisions doesn't change 90% of the writing. That's why the illusion of choice comes. When you play the game multiple times it shows.
chrominance
Member
I feel like the game is actually pretty upfront about this. Even in the main storyline, it's very clear that often the only difference between dialogue choices is one of tone. And in the cases where this isn't true, every time you pick the intentionally obtuse or wrong answer, someone just corrects you and the scene moves on as normal. If anything, I'd worry that people got the opposite impression: that your dialogue choices NEVER mattered.
That's what my sister is feeling about the game right now tbh.
...
She's feeling pretty divorced from the main character, especially when he pervs on the girls and she hates his sleazier dialogue options and how she can only treat Futaba like a little girl.
I think she also hates Makoto because a) she knows I liked her a lot and b) she tends to disagree with her and then the game reverts to what Makoto wants anyway and c) she's too girly and fragile for her (and romantic--she was horrified when I told her that actually Mitsuru's social link was more sappy, i.e. actually sappy). I think really the kicker for her is the undercurrent that Makoto wants to be seen as a girl, particularly by the MC. And that's there under all the Makoto is a boyish, naive, dork while also a competent, smart, polished girl thing. I enjoyed it and I think that it is not such an awful thing, but there is so much a general climate of being a girl to the MC that I could get how it pisses her off.
But...I really hope the Futaba dynamic doesn't piss her off too much because there is a lot in that social link she'd like and identify with when Futaba talks about herself. She also really likes Futaba's art.
Idk. I think she might be able to ignore it.
I maxed out Sojiro's S-Link last night, and teared up a little.
That was very heartwarming all in all.
And then he said "Could you not... get with Futaba?" haha.
From what I've seen I'd side with the "Futaba is your little sister character" reading, but if she pulls your heartstrings another way, I wouldn't read it as incest if this relationship went elsewhere.
But I don't want to sour my new Dad Sojiro. He taught me how to make curry - which is now Kawakami's task, because I have books to read instead.
Concerning Makoto's S-Link, I really enjoyed the Confidant events actually.
Just that point where you can decide to get romantic with her was pretty botched.
Instead of going for the "I need to check some boxes on the "things to do before graduating" list, so how about we date and get this over with?" approach, it would have been pretty easy to give her some lines about how she enjoyed the pretend dates and hanging out with you, and that she's sad she doesn't get to have a fake boyfriend anymore now - because, you know, it was really fun. Queue Joker either assuring her that you can still hang out and have fun (Friendship) or going all in with "then let's date for real".
Would have made for a much better turn around.
That was very heartwarming all in all.
And then he said "Could you not... get with Futaba?" haha.
From what I've seen I'd side with the "Futaba is your little sister character" reading, but if she pulls your heartstrings another way, I wouldn't read it as incest if this relationship went elsewhere.
But I don't want to sour my new Dad Sojiro. He taught me how to make curry - which is now Kawakami's task, because I have books to read instead.
Concerning Makoto's S-Link, I really enjoyed the Confidant events actually.
Just that point where you can decide to get romantic with her was pretty botched.
Instead of going for the "I need to check some boxes on the "things to do before graduating" list, so how about we date and get this over with?" approach, it would have been pretty easy to give her some lines about how she enjoyed the pretend dates and hanging out with you, and that she's sad she doesn't get to have a fake boyfriend anymore now - because, you know, it was really fun. Queue Joker either assuring her that you can still hang out and have fun (Friendship) or going all in with "then let's date for real".
Would have made for a much better turn around.
Serenade_King
Banned
I played the game 3 times and I honestly wanna play a fourth time on merciless. Now on my second and third playthrough I was disappointed that dating Tae or Ohya really felt tacked on unlike Kawakami that had a scene on all the mayor "date" events, so hopefully on Persona 6 or P5Crimson they add other event for the girls that don't go to hawaii or the school festival.
Elaugaufein
Member
She's available during the last week (
12/23 is last day for night s-links
Lightning Lord
Banned
The scene was funny for me because that same day I romanced Futaba, so I had to be like "Yeeeeeeaaaaaah, about that..."
ShadowSoldier89
Member
well..considering his very next line was basically him roundabout trying to say he actually wants you to get with Futaba...
Lightning Lord
Banned
Oh yeah, it was just the timing in general for that scene was perfect. I laughed pretty hard when the line came up.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
no way to tell
Best ways to get points
No cost to time: Feed the plant every few weeks for 3 kindness if you use the best fertilizer. Drink a smoothie in the underground walkway every sunday for 1 stat up in a rotating category.
Social link rank ups: Devil and Sun for Charm. Hanged Man for Proficiency. Hierophant and Tower for Kindness. Death for Guts. Star for Intelligence. These might not be the absolute highest point count for statups, but since the end goal is to get the Confidants up, these are best taken advantage of.
Books and Games: If you want to get the trophies, might as well make these the next on the list of priority for skill gains
Guts: Big Bang Burger challenge. At guts/proficiency/intelligence ranks 2/2/2. 3/3/3, and 4/4/4 you can finish bigger and bigger burgers. Each finish gives stats into a bunch of different categories. By far the most you can get at once. Even when you fail however you still get Guts.
Proficiency: Make tools. Useful for having tools anyway, and there is a trophy for making them all if you are interested.
Kindness: Working at the flower shop.
Charm: Working at crossroads and talking to the right person. Bathing on mondays or thursdays for a guaranteed 3, bathe on a rainy day for 3 as long as you dont pass out. Reload if you do.
Intelligence: Study. Can take advantage of study sessions that pop up with teammates for other bonuses, or study at the cafe or library to get additional bonuses.
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