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Persona 5 Tactica has leaked. Persona 3 Remake coming to Xbox Game Pass on Day One.
Gambit2483
Member
Don't question things...just let Xbox pay to have Persona and be happy more people get to enjoy this series
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feynoob
Banned
People buy them.
The issue is that Xbox has no audience in japan. These are the regions which increases your sales for japanese games.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
It’s up to Xbox players, if they want to see more Atlus games or other JRPGs on Xbox then they better support these games.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
I have not once suggested Xbox be spun off; what I have been saying, or rather asking, is what are Xbox's net profits like? Because then we may get a better understanding why they haven't pushed for 3P deals in the past, or went light on deals for Game Pass in 2022, just as examples.
Microsoft themselves may have a lot of money, but Xbox is barely a factor into that.
Not disputing that.
No, other things could matter depending on if the arrangement's enabled through benefits gained from potentially anticompetitive practices on Microsoft's part. Disney's getting sued for allegedly 'price-shifting', as an example.
Uh, most Japanese games sell the majority of their copies outside of Japan
Because I like to learn about video game consoles and platform holders, and learn their full stories. It's part of what I like about the hobby.
Also I have gradually become more interested in the business side of the industry. I don't care if MS shareholders and most gamers don't care. Xbox owners are investors/shareholders in their own way as well and I'm sure at least some care or would be interested to know why. Their reasons would be no less valid.
feynoob
Banned
global has more gamers. its why it sells alot there.Uh, most Japanese games sell the majority of their copies outside of Japan
But the thing is that these games are japanese games, who has audience in that country. You need them to give you a boost.
And considering most jrpg games sells around 1m-2m copies lifetime, having 30k to 60k users from there is better.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
On its own merits, Xbox would have been shut down over a decade ago.
You've literally used this exact same phrase in multiple topics.
Who owns the Xbox division ?
Wait, why are you limiting to anti-competitive practices on Microsoft's part about 3P companies making deals for game pass ?
Why aren't you concerned about anti-competitive practices for other 3P studios from Japan making fully exclusive games that don't come to Xbox ?
I don't recall seeing your essays in any the FFVII Rebirth or FFXVI topics? What was different there ?
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feynoob
Banned
No one
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
Global had more gamers back in the SNES and PS1 gens, too, but JRPGs (as an example) sold most of their copies in Japan.
Well, Microsoft have dropped the ball there because getting more JRPGs alone won't boost Xbox sales numbers to a level where they can get a JRPG to do 30K-60K on their system.
Because it's true? C'mon, you know there was talk of spinning the division off after Satya Nadella joined. The way XBO performed at retail for most of 8th gen, it would have been shut down at least a few years ago if any other company owned it.
If it were Google, they would've shut it down. You can even look at older consoles in the past from big companies like NEC and Matsushita, they did the same after only a few years of coming out with poorly-selling products. Sony would've shut down PlayStation if the PS1 didn't pull its own weight.
Xbox has been stuck in debt for many years but Microsoft subsidize the debt & losses with offsets from their divisions that matter to their bottom line, because they make so much more money from them. Xbox can't survive in its current state as a self-sustaining division, if it had to generate enough in big profits to justify staying open.
A company that makes 90% of their revenue, and over 90% of their net profits, from everything but Xbox.
Because those aren't anti-competitive. Regulators like the FTC have a whole page on their website, describing those types of deals as being favorable to fair competition, because they avoid the pitfalls of anticompetitive practices.
Don't go listening to bum Washington senators who know nothing about gaming, saying whatever Microsoft pays them to say. They don't know anything.
I don't recall seeing your essays in any the FFVII Rebirth or FFXVI topics? What was different there ?
Because they aren't anticompetitive practices
BTW I'm not saying Game Pass deals themselves are anticompetitive. I'm saying if MS are doing things like price-shifting (say GP is using too much in spending, so they make Office subscribers pay more to cover the costs of that), or predatory pricing, then it would potentially be anticompetitive.
IMO leveraging revenue & profit flow from substantially bigger divisions to push a debt-heavy model with Xbox & Game Pass could, or should, be considered potentially anticompetitive but that would depend on a lot of different things.
Anyway, this should be about Persona 3 Remake & Persona 5 Tactica in Game Pass. Y'all enjoy 'em. And hopefully actually complete them
Gambit2483
Member
I think it's obvious this will have ALL of the content and probably thensome.
The limitations of the PSP really screwed up the later ports of Persona 3
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Aka the parent company of the Xbox division.
aka Microsoft.
Trying to say that a game pass day 1 deal is anti-competitive but a fully bought console exclusive is not is some real pretzel level stuff my man. Hats off.
And you even brought in the FTC into the argument. *chef's kiss*.
Do you have absolutely anything to back up your assertion or what led you to it.
Or is it just straight up unsubstantiated FUD ?
Also, how are you even equating increasing prices of MS Office to the deal of Persona 3 being on game pass day 1 ? If you mean in general for Microsoft as a company, not related to any of their gaming divisions, then what's the point of raising that here ?
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Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I definitely think we gonna get new story elements exclusive to Reload.
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feynoob
Banned
They have to build the library, which they are doing it now.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
This dude just straight up doesn't want Xbox to have a version of the game, he's been posting the same stuff in other threads as well.
It is so tiring and transparent ..
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
I never said Persona games in Game Pass Day 1 was anticompetitive. Again, it's a smart move for Microsoft, and it's extra money for Sega & Atlus.
Only threw in a more general observation about Game Pass's model itself and challenging the idea that "it must be profitable" by bringing up the fact Microsoft have yet to share revenue or profit figures for the service. They don't even provide subscriber numbers anymore.
Companies like Sony & Nintendo, who are less "all-in" on subscription models, are more transparent than that. So, is the lack of transparency due to practices that could include heavy subsidization of the service? If they are, what are those practices exactly? Can they potentially be argued as being anticompetitive?
Again, Day 1 Game Pass deals, never said those in and of themselves were anticompetitive. They obviously aren't.
It's just speculation based on a hypothetical. Never said for a fact MS were doing something anticompetitive with Game Pass, don't know how you got that reading :/
This is a reach. You know I'm not doing that.It was just me exploring the hypothetical a bit further. But, all of this stems from curiosity. I am, genuinely curious how the Game Pass model is working for Microsoft on a financial level.
Again, Microsoft's own lack of transparency just intensifies the curiosity.
That's not what I'm saying. I don't really care if the game goes to Xbox or not. In fact, it was mostly about how the games going into Game Pass (which is independent of Xbox) might influence purchasing habits of people on non-Game Pass platforms.
But I guess you missed that part.
Stuart360
Member
They said Gamepass made what?, 2.8bil in 2021, or 2022, cant remember which year. And people looked at the games brought to the service, looked at the EPIC deals we found out about from the court case, and guesstimated that Xbox probably spent 500-800mil running Gamepass for that year. Sure its a guesstimate but there is a pretty big chance Gamepass is maiking a lot of money. Dont forget Gamepass is a store front too, and obviously there is the mtx angle.I never said Persona games in Game Pass Day 1 was anticompetitive. Again, it's a smart move for Microsoft, and it's extra money for Sega & Atlus.
Only threw in a more general observation about Game Pass's model itself and challenging the idea that "it must be profitable" by bringing up the fact Microsoft have yet to share revenue or profit figures for the service. They don't even provide subscriber numbers anymore.
Companies like Sony & Nintendo, who are less "all-in" on subscription models, are more transparent than that. So, is the lack of transparency due to practices that could include heavy subsidization of the service? If they are, what are those practices exactly? Can they potentially be argued as being anticompetitive?
Again, Day 1 Game Pass deals, never said those in and of themselves were anticompetitive. They obviously aren't.
It's just speculation based on a hypothetical. Never said for a fact MS were doing something anticompetitive with Game Pass, don't know how you got that reading :/
It was just me exploring the hypothetical a bit further. But, all of this stems from curiosity. I am, genuinely curious how the Game Pass model is working for Microsoft on a financial level.
Again, Microsoft's own lack of transparency just intensifies the curiosity.
That's not what I'm saying. I don't really care if the game goes to Xbox or not. In fact, it was mostly about how the games going into Game Pass (which is independent of Xbox) might influence purchasing habits of people on non-Game Pass platforms.
But I guess you missed that part.
Also has there ever been any hard proof that Xbox is in the red?, its a serious question as i honestly dont know. I mean didnt Xbox make similar revenue as Nintendo last year, and we know Nintendo makes big profit, so why wouldnt Xbox?, what extra overheaads does Xbox have that Nintendo and Sony dont?. Ot is it simply a case of 'they dont reveal numbers so they MUST be losing money'?, i mean they do the same for all their divisions right?, and we know they are a trillion dollar company so somehting must be doing well lol.
feynoob
Banned
People who don't understand business regurate this bit a lot.
It's like Xbox doesn't make any money from 3rd party sales cut or anything.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
I think you're referring to the leaked figures from CADE documents, which mentioned $2.9 billion. However, that wasn't just for Game Pass, it was for all of Microsoft's gaming services. So Game Pass, Elder Scrolls Online, Fallout '76, Bethesda Creators Program, and Xbox Live Gold. The figures were for 2021 IIRC, but they could've been for 2022.
A market analyst put out a report about market subscription revenue amounts for 2022, a while back earlier this year. Microsoft's services would've been included in that, but there wasn't a breakdown. The total number was something like $7.5 billion - $7.8 billion or something like that. However, since Sony & (to a lesser extent, but still more than Microsoft) Nintendo are actually transparent with the revenue of their own services, and we have subscriber numbers for Zenimax games like ESO & F'76, it was pretty easy to deduce a probable amount of what Microsoft's share was out of that, and what Game Pass's share might've been.
I personally gave them an estimate of something around $2 billion from Game Pass itself for 2022.
Well look at it this way: MS sunk $4 billion into OG Xbox that was never recovered, they put aside $1 billion for 360's RROD, there's no telling how much they sunk into XBO that ended up falling through (things like the NFL sports deal early on, etc.). Sunk costs into various 1P games and 3P exclusives that were eventually cancelled. And I would also add in the $7.5 billion spent for Zenimax.
Yes I know that is something more of an investment, but it's an investment that has recouped nowhere near its costs in terms of profits generated, and that was an acquisition mainly done for Xbox and Game Pass. So if you add all of that up alone, it's already $12.5 billion. Then there are other things like the subsidization losses MS themselves admitted to taking on every Xbox last year, and might still be taking today (though perhaps less so). Or money lost on various 1P software like Halo Infinite.
It all starts to add up.
Okay there is a chance they may not be in the red. Let's say they've incurred losses of $13.5 - $14 billion over the past two decades, but say they averaged $1 billion in net profits for the division each year. This wouldn't actually be the case, certainly not back in say the OG Xbox days or even the early 360 launch period or its first year or two, but you get the point.
So they wouldn't be in the red per se, but wouldn't be in the black to anywhere near a comfortable level as Sony or especially Nintendo are, if we're looking at the past 20+ years between the three.
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Stuart360
Member
No i was asking a serious question, i dont follow all this constant profit talk we have on here, because i honestly dont really care that much. I just meant has there been any actual 'proof' that Xbox is in the red, because certain people sure do like to say it a lot, so i didnt know if i had missed announcements, leaks, former employees saying it etc.
I just cant get my head around why MS would continue with Xbox if it had been in the red for 20 years (and Phil already confirmed more consoles on the way), why it is in the red, and why Xbox can make billions on revenue every year, match (actually they even beat Nintendo last year in revenue right?) Nintendo and yet somehow Xbox seems to have way more overheads than Nintendo as we know Nintendo make big proffit, yet Xbox isnt for some unknown reason..
Stuart360
Member
So there is no evidence is what your saying. And just back to a few points, why does MS continue with Xbox if it IS in the red for 20 years?, and why does Sony and Nintendo make big profits off their revenue, but for soem reason Xbox doesnt?, what extra overrheads does Xbox have that the other two dont?, and investments like aqqusitions dont really factor in that as its still an asset, its not 7bil down the drain overnight (Bethesda).
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feynoob
Banned
Mainly due to feud between Xbox and PS fans.
You have this news that MS funds Xbox at a loss. The main culprit for that is their console is being sold at a loss (even though they get that loss back from revenue sales).
As for Nintendo, they make more money due to their premium service. Their games don't drop price. That means 40+m copies is around $50-$55 per copy on average. They are essentially getting more money from their first party games. And the cost for those games is quite cheap.
Now it's gamepass turn.
The only way people can stop these stupid stuff is if MS shares their revenues like Sony and Nintendo does.
feynoob
Banned
Nintendo profits comes from their premium first party sales.
All these games here don't drop below 60$ unless its sales.
- Mario Kart 8 Deluxe: 53.79 million units
- Animal Crossing: New Horizons: 42.21 million units
- Super Smash Bros. Ultimate: 31.09 million units
- The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild: 29.81 million units
- Pokemon Sword and Shield: 25.82 million units
- Super Mario Odyssey: 25.76 million units
- Pokemon Scarlet and Violet: 22.10 million units
- Super Mario Party: 19.14 million units
- New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe: 15.41 million units
- Ring Fit Adventure: 15.38 million units
That is why Nintendo makes profit.
As for PS, their userbase does generate a lot of money for them. 120m PS4 generates alot of software sales compared to 50m-60m Xbox consoles. Especially mtx sales.
As for Xbox, they get a lot of money from accessories, mtx and software sales. And because Xbox is going full digital, MS will earn more money as that is 30% cut for them.
The only red is the console manufacturers. MS sells them at a loss cost. But those cost is being paid back from software and accessories sales.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
Well it's hard to get concrete evidence after a certain date when MS obfuscate their data.
Because they have been taking the Netflix mentality (before Netflix popularized it). In MS's case, leveraging their significantly larger revenue streams in non-gaming markets to offset any losses and slowdown of revenue & profit from their gaming division, and push certain subsidization strategies, in the hopes they outlive competitors and can change the market to operate by their rules.
Not the first time Microsoft would have done such a thing; they did similar with Internet Explorer back in the day.
Because they have different ways of doing things. Nintendo isn't producing top-end gaming hardware; they use old tech and skimp on a lot of hardware features so they can have nice profit margins on their systems Day 1. They never really drop the prices on their 1P software, and their stubbornness on several fronts in following industry trends with pricing and availability has led to creating enough demand that several of their games do 20-30 million+ copies if not even more.
Their AAA games are generally also among the cheapest in the industry to make because they don't target insane graphics, don't use Hollywood VAs and writers, and aren't made for powerful gaming systems. Sony's AAA games cost more than Nintendo's, but they also sell much more on average than Microsoft's. Their systems are high performance, but they engineer them for efficient price reductions in production costs, that's also helped by the sheer volumes they sell. Microsoft doesn't do this, and they can't leverage volume pricing to the level Sony is able to (because Xbox is a lesser-in-demand brand). 3P games also sell magnitudes more on PlayStation than either Microsoft or Nintendo systems, in many cases combined, so they're making more from 3P cuts than both.
Less global demand & brand appeal = less systems to sell = more costs per component in manufacture = less room to take advantage of volume pricing discounts = more money to lose per system sold when trying to stay competitive on price.
I know that, which is why I didn't hardline list Zenimax as one. However, as of the moment they haven't recouped that cost in terms of overall net profits. To me the only difference in calling that an asset vs money gone yet to be recouped, is semantics.
TBF, I did acknowledge a lot of this in responding to
Stuart360
. And you're right about most of what's here. However, the things you mention about MS in terms of how Xbox is getting it's money, apply to PS as well. The difference in digital between the two platforms as a whole isn't that big, it's 70% for PS and something like...well, hell, Microsoft's lack of transparency once again creates difficulties. People citing 90% of Xbox sales are digital, I think are confusing general market sales data with Microsoft's data, because I'm not finding anywhere that Microsoft have said Xbox digital sales are any specific amount.However, they may be higher than PS. I doubt by too much, though, so maybe 85%? Still, that doesn't mean much when PS is getting significantly more in absolute software sales, it negates whatever percentage advantage Xbox has for its own platform. So basically whatever growth in 30% cut MS is getting from 3P digital sales, Sony is leapfrogging that on their own platform even if total volume of relative digital sales on PS is somewhat less than that of Xbox, because in terms of absolute numbers PS is moving significantly more games than Xbox.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Nope, he said so himself:
"Speculation based on a hypothetical".
There's nothing to back any of the statements but we're just supposed to believe that it might be anti-competitive for .. reasons .. and that might be bad for .. reasons .
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Stuart360
Member
Yep all specualtion, often biased speculation, without really anything to back it up.
In fact the only real evidence is that Xbox is still here, 20 years later, with Phil already confirming more consoles in development, meaning Xbox will probably be here next gen, which in reality will probably mean 35 years of Xbox. I dont think businesses of that size make decisions based on ego. If Xbox is still with us, and will continue to be with us, its obviously worth it to MS.
Its all hopes and dreams to some people i feel.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Well if MS would just be more transparent with their own numbers
I guess we'll be stuck talking about the two new Persona games that'll be announced on the 11th until then ..
ah well. I, for one, welcome that change.
I've never really understood the fascination a subset of users have with the need to know exactly how much finances MS/Sony/Nintendo are making. Who cares, it's their job to subsidize these kind of deals to make their eco-systems better for the players.
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Stuart360
Member
They do the same with all their divisions though right, and we know they are a trillion dollar company that makes hundreds of miilions every year. I dont think anyone disputes that, so just because they dont give as much detail as Sony or Nintendo, it doesnt mean that they are doing bad.Well if MS would just be more transparent with their own numbers
Its ben this way since 2014, and i dont think its going to change any time soon.
I wish they would to an extent, just to stop this kind of nonsense, although some people would say they are lying or fixing numbers or something, so they cant really win no matter what they do.
feynoob
Banned
We are not talking about platform split here.TBF, I did acknowledge a lot of this in responding to
However, they may be higher than PS. I doubt by too much, though, so maybe 85%? Still, that doesn't mean much when PS is getting significantly more in absolute software sales, it negates whatever percentage advantage Xbox has for its own platform. So basically whatever growth in 30% cut MS is getting from 3P digital sales, Sony is leapfrogging that on their own platform even if total volume of relative digital sales on PS is somewhat less than that of Xbox, because in terms of absolute numbers PS is moving significantly more games than Xbox.
Sales is mostly being impacted by how big your platform is. Xbox won't be able to make close to what PS is making, until they get a lot of userbase.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Looks like the previously anime video scenes will be rendered in-engine now.
Also, the P3 Reloaded images are from a cropped Instagram video, so they are very much not accurate representations of the games 4K IQ it will have on SX/PS5.
Also, the P3 Reloaded images are from a cropped Instagram video, so they are very much not accurate representations of the games 4K IQ it will have on SX/PS5.
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Riky
$MSFT
That just shows a fundamental non understanding of accounting procedure which makes everything else you say pointless.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
Stop trying to derail threads with thinly veiled war bait over gamepass.
Well MS made it that way for themselves, no one else to really blame here. And, I'm not saying Microsoft does poorly in terms of revenue; they obviously do well. I'm not even saying Xbox does bad in revenue, or that Game Pass revenue is "pathetic".
I'm just asking, to those who want to say Game Pass is doing "well higher" than say $2 billion/year in revenue, or that it's super profitable, why can't MS provide numbers to substantiate that? They can give Xbox revenue totals; we know Game Pass accounts for some portion of that, it's in their Content & Services segment, but they can't break it down beyond just total Xbox gaming services?
I mean Microsoft are the ones who were pushing Game Pass as the future of the gaming market. If that's what you're gonna do, be a leader and put up the numbers. They never really did.
I get that. But, I was also simply pointing out the fact itself; it is what it is.
However I would say what you're stating isn't a thing that holds true all the time. Looking at subscription numbers for example, a little under 1/3 of all PS4 & PS5 owners have PS+ in some form. That leaked Linkedn profile listed 10 million Xbox Game Pass & 15 million PC Game Pass subscribers. I doubt that's the actual ratio, but if it is, then under 1/7th of all XBO & Xbox Series owners are subbed to Game Pass.
If it kept in line with hardware owners ratio-wise, then Xbox Game Pass would make up something like 20 - 22 million of the reported 25 million subscriber count.
Eh, maybe it does maybe it doesn't. MS don't provide much transparency on their own numbers so ultimately it's kinda fruitless.
Looks like the previously anime video scenes will be rendered in-engine now.
Also, the P3 Reloaded images are from a cropped Instagram video, so they are very much not accurate representations of the games 4K IQ it will have on SX/PS5.
It's definitely on the verge of looking more like a remaster than a remake, but I can still see some improvements here and there.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Its Atlus, they going do more than just visuals change, also they completely changed engine, UI, character models and even 2D portraits.
feynoob
Banned
That 25m is for investors, so MS can't lie in this case.
I think you are reading too much in to this.
All I can say is that as long as MTX exist, game sales won't mean that much. Games like fortnite and other f2p games generate a lot of revenue.
For example, MS has Minecraft and Roblox on Xbox. That is a lot of mtx from kids.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Also, the game play will be a more refined Persona 5, which is a mammoth of an improvement over Persona 3.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I also surprised they are using Unreal Engine for Reload, both Persona 5 and Catherine wasn't using Unreal Engine.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
While it means modding on PC, it also means shader comp stutters on PC as well lol.
The console versions probably gonna run pretty fine.
Have tried to explain this too many times with 'what ifs'
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
P5 has been the most successful game in the franchise, I kinda do understand why they want a steady revenue cash cow lol.